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blankseplocked Some reasons EVE sucks *almost* as much as all other MMOs
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:38:00 - [1]
 

So, yeah, EVE sucks far less than all other MMOs out there, that has to be said.
But that doesn't mean it's "fine".


ALMOST NO IN-GAME INFO FOR THE NEWCOMERS.

Let me start with the obvious...
Would it really kill you to have tooltips on "just about everything" ? A lot of the cryptic-named stuff on "showinfo" is just as confusing as it can be.

Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.

And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).

You know what my pinnacle of "near-perfection" in the way help is given to the user is ? Master of Orion II. Play it, and see what I mean... you can just about right-click on ANYTHING for a detailed description of what it means.


LOUSY DOCUMENTATION OF BASIC GAME MECHANICS (and nearly no in-game description of it)

The new tutorials are, well, somewhat decent, but again, nowhere near enough.

Yeah, you gave us evewikiclopedia or whatsitsname.
Now, if only it was up to date... and if only you could actually view it on the IGB properly... and only if you could really find what you're looking for.

I occasionally do personally burst an eye blood vessel when somebody complains about getting scammed with a 0.0 courier contract to a player station or getting ganked in his trusty industrial that was carying his life savings and whatnot... but if you really stop to think about it... NORMAL/AVERAGE people could very easily encounter such an issue and never have had a chance to be in touch with the information that would help them avoid that situation in the first place.
And don't get me started on POS setup stuff, invention, manufacturing and a lot of other thinsg you would consider a "profession" of sorts.

Yeah, sure, you can say it "promotes human interaction" by making sure people ask other more experienced people for help.
But at the same time, the majority of EVE players have a mean streak in them at times, so encouraging social interaction by making (what I would condsider) vital information mainly available via social channels is... well... questionable.




GAME MASTERS WHO DO NOT KNOW THE GAME

Yeah, I've complained myself about the people that file frivolous petitions, causing a larger load for the GMs, which forces CCP to hire more (and less eperienced) GMs that tend to do copypasta jobs on a lot of petitions.
It is the general feeling of quite a few people I know that just FILING a petition has become basically just a "hey, listen" conversation starter, and that they have to either escalate or refile the petition just to get a decent answer for anything that's not a 100% clear situation (and sometimes even for those).

Seriously, when some of your own GMs start looking like they don't really know what the heck they're talking about, it's REALLY time to re-visit the "how things should be in EVE" documentation and help system.



NON-GAME-BREAKING BUT ANNOYING LONG-STANDING BUGS OR ISSUES

I understand you like the idea of shiny new content, but when after MANY YEARS something as trivial as the corp interface has received next to no improvements (just giving one of the worst case scenario examples I can think of), then something is really, really fishy.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:39:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 18:09:16
_

HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE

If you really tried to make it as hard to use as possible, and make it LESS ergonomic with each iteration... you succeeded.
Case in point, the new scan probe interface. The new map. The same old corp interface for ages. The science&industry tab. And I could go on and on.
You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces.
The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).

And... yeah... absolutely NO USER CUSTOMISATION ?!?


"ICELANDIC STYLE ECONOMY" FOR GAME ECONOMY AND GAME BALANCE
*ouch, burn, I really went there* what that means, is a "we know better than anybody else in spite of overwhelming evidence" aproach to doing things (and we all know where that leads) *ouch*

There's been repeated counts of "not listening to the people who know anything" or "just ignoring them for some reason".
Sure, the CSM has gone a long way in putting some of the disputed issues on the table, the problem is, the CSM almost exclusively presents POPULAR issues.
And as a general rule, popular issues means a) bugs, b) immediate gameplay improvements, c) special interest groups and d) idiotic stuff that received overwhelming support from the (statistically unavoidable) short-sighted and/or short-witted population. Issues like economic balance, money supply and such mostly get ignored because there's simply not enough voices out there to scream loud enough... or, if there is one such voice, only the most urgent (and therefore "broken") things get put on the table, while long-standing but low-impact issues get delayed (unsually for what feels like forever).
You guys hired an economist (by the way, coincidence ? I suggested you do exactly that more than half a year before you did it), but so far... he either doesn't understand what the "Market Discussions" regulars tell him, or he doesn't want to understand, or worse, he understands but for some reason doesn't talk back and YOU OTHER guys at CCP ignore him. I don't know which version is worse.

There's been a whole stream of disastruous balance choices, with a vast majority of them in the realm of the game economy.
The mining system is a bloody joke, yet nobody bothered doing anything about it. There are several proposals, some quite detailed, nearly TWO YEARS old. But now, why make some changes that can be implemented with 1000 man-hours, when we can have T3 ships that probably take 100,000 man-hours ?
And about T3 ships, hello massive balance failure again ? Obviously, you chose not to listen to people telling you they can't possibly be as cheap as you said you wanted them to be given the drop rates and required ingredients, but will you EVER listen before you hit your head on the side of the barn, repeatedly ? Obviosuly not. If we see any good tweaks in a year, we'll be lucky. And even then, the tweaks would be most likely insufficient.
And don't even get me started on alchemy... what the HELL were you thinking ? 20 times longer to react ? Needing 20 times more of a material that's already reasonably well-needed ? HELLOOOO ?!?! Why the hell not 500-1000 times more atmospheric gasses or other junk like that ? Why not the same, or barely double the time to react ?
Being unable to predict the effects changes in your own game would have, then NOT listening a word of what people who have repeatedly shown you they DO know what they're talking about... at least game economy-wise... I think that's an even greater failure on CCP's part rather than a lack of in-game help for newbies.

But again, that's just me, a newbie couldn't care less about it as long as he can blow stuff up.
___

P.S. This has been a constructive criticism thread.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:43:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Akita T
reserved


What for?

C.



Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:46:00 - [4]
 

I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.



If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.

Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:46:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Akita T
reserved


What for?

C.





Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:55:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 17:57:48
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?

Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!

Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually Twisted Evil

Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.

It's one thing to learn from information that's readily available at the push of a button.
It's another thing to learn by reading a wiki, several subforums, doing a couple of google searches and still coming up with 2-3 different explanations for the same thing, having to actually go on SiSi to test it first to see which one is true or not (if SiSi has the same version as TQ), or trying it on TQ with disastruous consequences.

Let's recall, EVE is essentially a GAME. You don't really want information about a GAME to be nearly as hard to get as information about RL stuff is.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:01:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 17:57:48
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?

Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!

Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually Twisted Evil

Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.

It's one thing to learn from information that's readily available at the push of a button.
It's another thing to learn by reading a wiki, several subforums, doing a couple of google searches and still coming up with 2-3 different explanations for the same thing, having to actually go on SiSi to test it first to see which one is true or not (if SiSi has the same version as TQ), or trying it on TQ with disastruous consequences.

Let's recall, EVE is essentially a GAME. You don't really want information about a GAME to be nearly as hard to get as information about RL stuff is.



The hilariously incomplete documentation encourages in-game socialising, and is also a rich, never-ending source of forum comedy.

Besides, I'm not that bright, I'm usually drunk, and I'm god-dambed lazy. If an idle dimwit souse like me can figure stuff out then no other vertebrate has an excuse.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:03:00 - [8]
 

Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players Twisted Evil
Also, most smart people usually consider themselves just about average, while stupid people consider themselves smarter than average. Only the truly stupid and truly bright know their place properly without it being shoved down their throats with a shovel.

Zylithi
Caldari
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:04:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Zylithi on 02/04/2009 18:04:46
In my mind, eve only has one, and one only, problem:

Quote:
SOCKET: CLOSED

(and, just to make you feel better, the 100 mil you just spent on fighters is now gone)



Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players Twisted Evil



Yeah, and they've been getting them.

EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.

And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is Laughing

Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:15:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.

And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is Laughing


WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.

And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is Laughing


WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.


Nicely put.

Buster Gonads
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:17:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players Twisted Evil



Yeah, and they've been getting them.

EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.


Non sequitur for the loss Mr Malcanis. I like the op's post. You've been too long in the goldfish bowl but you don't know it.

Something that I thought was very instructive was watching a CCP employee demonstrate something to an audience during a presentation (something on YouTube). He had trouble finding and clicking an option on one of the right-click context menus, with much knowing laughter from the audience. The reason this is instructive is because it shows how even being an expert is no guarantee of success with a crap user interface.

I was going to put up a post about RSI (there have been enough over the years). I don't think CCP put UI high enough on the priority list. You don't need masses of "help" pages ifyou make a good UI from the start. If you do it right, it should be easy for a user to discover how things work in a more natural way. With Eve, not only are you in the dark most of the time, you're presented with the whole caboodal from the start and the widgets are so tiny or ill positioned you'll fracture your Capitate in no time at all.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:24:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.

And that's where the "Dear CCP, your UI is a massive failure" part of the second post comes in Twisted Evil

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Buster Gonads
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players Twisted Evil



Yeah, and they've been getting them.

EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.


Non sequitur for the loss Mr Malcanis. I like the op's post. You've been too long in the goldfish bowl but you don't know it.

Something that I thought was very instructive was watching a CCP employee demonstrate something to an audience during a presentation (something on YouTube). He had trouble finding and clicking an option on one of the right-click context menus, with much knowing laughter from the audience. The reason this is instructive is because it shows how even being an expert is no guarantee of success with a crap user interface.

I was going to put up a post about RSI (there have been enough over the years). I don't think CCP put UI high enough on the priority list. You don't need masses of "help" pages ifyou make a good UI from the start. If you do it right, it should be easy for a user to discover how things work in a more natural way. With Eve, not only are you in the dark most of the time, you're presented with the whole caboodal from the start and the widgets are so tiny or ill positioned you'll fracture your Capitate in no time at all.




I'm not arguing gainst a better UI.

Emporer Cheney
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:27:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akita T

And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).




This is indeed incredibly frustrating. I heard this game was for ueber-nerds with a math disorder. Great - I'm a nerd with a math degree. But none of the modifiers are what they say they are. When trying out different modules on my ship, I need to activate and deactivate various things, go to my ship info screen, write down the results in a log and then do a little math to figure out what things actually do. That is messed up. There's a spreadsheet worth of data on the "attributes" tab, but most of it is irrelevant, and the one or two things you really want to know about are on the very bottom for some reason and usually wrong. That's crazy.

Vancali
Minmatar
Black Moon Privateers
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:28:00 - [18]
 

/me shakes head and comes out of trance

I can't believe I read as long as I did. Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side? I'm not gonna list it all here, but there's a reason that this game has both grown over time and lasted as long as it has.

*sigh*

/whatev...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:30:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Vancali
Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side?

Because pointing out the stuff that's good leads to no improvements.
I'm not in the "business" of kissing CCP's posterior, I'm in the business of constructivecriticismverbalpimpslapping them into making EVE the near-perfect game.
Yeah, wishful thinking...

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:33:00 - [20]
 

Akita T, I endorse this product 100%. (Or 1.0% in the eve world)

The industry side isn't the only place that have had problems for a long time, but the game is still fun despite the drawbacks.

Faction Warfare being unfairly nerfed 2 weeks into it's existence, the lack of content in game compared to out of game, total neglect of a basic drone interface that seems to get worse each patch. (They now abandon themselves for no reason.)

I'm all for new content, but this stupid idea that they HAVE to patch every 6 months despite the glaring need of fixes not new "stuff" has gotten worse rather then better lately.

Game still rocks though. Very Happy

Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:35:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Isilwen Nightfall on 02/04/2009 18:35:49
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.

And that's where the "Dear CCP, your UI is a massive failure" part of the second post comes in Twisted Evil



Honestly i did not have so many problems when i started playing. A bit of clicking and reading, and that's it.
Sure, it could be optimized. But imho it's far from being a "massive failure".
Maybe i'm just an ugly and stupid elitist, but if a newcomer can't manage to play EvE because there are no "good tooltips" for the interface, how the hell is he going to play the rest of the game?

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:35:00 - [22]
 

EVE should have a Basic Training program - at the beginning, it should warn people that EVE is not for everyone, that most people fail and only the strong and determined will survive to move on to next round. Don't forget to call newbs maggots and accuse them being of soft carebears, helping them to become hardcore Smile

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:42:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
EVE should have a Basic Training program - at the beginning, it should warn people that EVE is not for everyone, that most people fail and only the strong and determined will survive to move on to next round. Don't forget to call newbs maggots and accuse them being of soft carebears, helping them to become hardcore Smile


It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)

Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?

Just a thought.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.04.02 18:44:00 - [24]
 

I'm totally with Megan on this one

NRCom
Bamba Zonke
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:00:00 - [25]
 

I agree fully with the OP, particularly the way they use measurements on modules.
Thankfully CCP donít design motor vehicle instrumentation.

But then in their defence they are based on a postage sized island in the middle of a freezing sea, with a population no greater than a small Midwestern town, and to top it all they officially believe in Elves!!!

And they should design fantastic intuitive software interface?... LOL

Ragnar Foulberg
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Vancali
I can't believe I read as long as I did. Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side? I'm not gonna list it all here, but there's a reason that this game has both grown over time and lasted as long as it has.

*sigh*

/whatev...


I have a brand new Porsche I'm willing to sell for a very reasonable price. It has tons of power, is extremely fast, very quiet to ride in, and is as comfortable as a luxury sedan. It's also a beautiful design that attracts chicks like crazy.

Unfortunately, it has no steering wheel and the brakes don't work. But maybe we should just talk about the "overwhelming good side" and not worry too much about those pesky details...

NoNah
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:04:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)

Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?

Just a thought.


I'd give it 36 hours before the number of one man corporations has doubled. And mind you that includes all the forum alt corps and mocking corporations. Heck, I'd have a handful myself.

The Snowman
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:25:00 - [28]
 

I'd pretty much agree with everything here, especially on the explanation of things like the interface.

Having lead several people through the trial since apochrypha ive become increasingly frustrated, and tired at having to explain basic things.

The new player experience was supposed to make things easier, but it doesnt, it expects you to already know basic things, and the removal of Aura has made it incredibly hard for these new players to do anything without me being there to explain things. most have them have gotton bored and already left. Not because of a lack of things to do but for the fact that its just no fun.

CCP have yet to learn that new players find it embarassing to ask noob question and get incredibly frustrated. Especially when the first thing you have to do is kill a ship and the game hasnt even told you how to warp yet! Let alone getting in range, activating guns, aproaching orbiting...

I'd go a step further and say that in Many ways EVE is a lot worse that other MMO's and CCP are still noobs in the MMO world. Nearly everyone Ive come to know in Eve who are 'hardcore' regularly take lengthy breaks, it just becomes too much like work.

Jennifer Celeste
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:39:00 - [29]
 

anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:48:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?

Yeah, because admiting from the start it's the best game out there WHILE STILL HAVING A LOT OF CORRECTABLE FLAWS is very ironic...


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