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Vall Kor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.31 19:43:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Alastairon
Originally by: Souju

not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation.


Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out?

Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ.




They are in the process of killing SBs now. So it'll be recons only.

Vina
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.31 19:55:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Alastairon
Originally by: Souju

not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation.


Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out?

Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ.



explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.31 19:59:00 - [33]
 

Ok, so you can't code in a fuel bay, fine. But the black ops still need more jump range, and you could easily write in a larger cargo bay for them until you get your code sorted.

Beyond that, kudos for attempting to solve 1 of the 3 obvious problems with black ops.

Alastairon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:00:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Vina
explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot.


With current SBs? Sure. The Black Ops can transport 56 bombers 1-way with it's current cargo capacity. That leaves 25 bombers and a recon for a there-and-back trip.

Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
decloak, target, fire.
cloak.
Rinse/repeat until jammer is dead 60min later.
Warp back to BO.
Jump out.

If anyone bothers you, the falcon jams him quickly, the bombers target and alpha it outta the sky then cloak again. Or warp out, bombers warp back in and alpha invader. Total interruption time of maybe 10 sec. Nothing decloaked longer than 10 sec.

Next question?

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:09:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
More like:

Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
..DDD
warp pod to safe
wait for aggro timer
log out

Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:13:00 - [36]
 

It's not contested until the enemy sees your blob trying to take out a jammer first.

The reason why that trick won't work is because Bombers can't cloak when they're all clustered together like that. The more people in gang or on the battlefield, the more likely you're getting locked. In the context of POS guns that's instadeath.

Gromik
The Yaar Offices of Pointe Webb and Podemall
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:16:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
More like:

Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
..DDD
warp pod to safe
wait for aggro timer
log out

Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system


So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead?


Alastairon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:21:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Gromik

So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead?


Exactly. But all of that isn't possible unless Bombers have the proposed 30-sec recloak delay done away with. Otherwise you have a ship that can jump into a jammed system but nothing to jump it in with, since it's other covops-class ships cannot engaged in any sort of warfare without having to warp in/out repeatedly. One has to look at the overall battle group in order to make changes to a single ship. This is a great change for the Black Ops, but useless without a cohesive vision for the Recons and Bombers.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:31:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Gromik
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
More like:

Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
..DDD
warp pod to safe
wait for aggro timer
log out

Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system


So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead?




local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:40:00 - [40]
 

Considering that the volleydamage of a stealthbomber with torps is much higher than one with cruises, one could actually do a lot of things with them.

Most cynojammers are set up to work against battleships. The arnaments, while impressive, actually won't do a lot against frigs. I once orbited such a deathstar in a ceptor without mwd (neuts are evil), and never got hit. Especially since nobody anchors missile sentries.

There are mods against frigs, but you rarely see them on pos designed to kill bs.


Now, with the ability to send in a lot of bombers..well.
Warp in, shoot volley, fleetwarp out to a gridload. Warp back, fire volley, warp to gridload. It should work, the pos won't target you fast enough.

Morsus Mihi can easily switch from 200 normal fleet into 200 stealthbombers. Basically anyone can fly them, they're a byproduct of skilling for recons or covops.

Now, 200 stealthbombers being portaled into a cynojammed system would be pretty hilarious, and purely hypothetical. But if it's doable, then why not? I remember that a fleet of stealthbombers portaled on top of cva dreads put one into structure once, and they had only cruise missiles... Cool

Shigsy
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:50:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Gromik
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
More like:

Safe the BO @36AU safe spot.
warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer.
cloak.
..DDD
warp pod to safe
wait for aggro timer
log out

Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system


So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead?




local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ?


Or use 4 BO's and bring 100 stealth bombers in....

They then have 6 minutes to try defend wherever you attacked before cyno jammer goes down.

Lewyrus
Argent Moon
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:51:00 - [42]
 

Fuel bay, better scan res, no scan res penalty for cloacks, double jump range, cyno-jammer immunity for covert cynos, better speed bonus for Panther.

May as well make them a little cheaper by cutting material cost by just a little, 5-8% perhaps.

Gromik
The Yaar Offices of Pointe Webb and Podemall
Posted - 2009.03.31 20:55:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Gromik
...



local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ?


Assuming that people are actually stationed in every system at all times, which doesn't really happen. Now people passing through or watching the map will notice for sure. It would be nice to have local delayed in 0.0 as many have suggested.

But the nifty use of black ops seems to me the ability to strike with little warning and bypass defenses. You can't really sneak a 100-man BS fleet through 0.0, but if your stealth fleet only enters every fourth system for a few minutes, with one cov ops moving ahead, it's at least easier, if still unlikely, to sneak in somewhere. (Note that would require bringing a covert transport with you for BO jump fuel, covert cyno fuel, and probably lots of ammo)

But even with that, POS managers will still get spammed with messages about a POS being under attack, so the jig would still be up after a few minutes. Confused

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:04:00 - [44]
 

Lots of love for the update, you good CCP Chronosis is a god at listening to your players and we gonna make duct tape altar in our room to worship you.

You are giving it pretty much what we asked for at least a year

on the other side , might you consider giving this tasty ship at least the t1 hull armor/sheild/structure amount so we are more willing to put it on the field cause atm its paperthin for a bs ^^

darkmancer
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:17:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Shigsy


Or use 4 BO's and bring 100 stealth bombers in....

They then have 6 minutes to try defend wherever you attacked before cyno jammer goes down.


ALL HAIL THE BLOB.

So CCP have changed the stealth bomb for a ship that (carefully) picks off ships at gatecamps, to a tool used for blob warfare on the cheap.

Nice

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:43:00 - [46]
 

Quote:
Black Ops missions often fall into the deniable category, a situation in which there is no claim of responsibility for the action, and/or a false flag operation is used to give the appearance that another actor was responsible, or -- most often -- black operations involve extensive arrangements so as to be able to hide the fact that the black operation ever occurred. Black military operations, or paramilitary operations, can be used by various secret services to achieve or attempt to achieve an unusually sensitive goal. The methods used in black operations are also used in unconventional warfare. Depending on the precise situation in a given case, and the level of authoritarianism of the national government or other responsible party, some tasks will be conducted as black operations, while there are usually other activities that can be admitted openly. Black operations may include such things as assassination, sabotage, extortion, spying on allied countries or one's own citizens, kidnapping, supporting resistance movements, torture, use of fraud to obtain funds, use of child soldiers, human experimentation, trafficking in contraband items, etc.

Best thing to achieve a real Black Ops ship in EVE: give them a module to temporarily deactivate local putting it into delayed mode. Just imagine the posibilities. I would also ensure that they are able to be scanned down reasonably easy. Better than that, their module don't works while warping.



Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:48:00 - [47]
 

The general boost to black ops is welcome. But please do not forget to revisit a bit the inner balance on the class.

The changes to speed in QR changed a lot for example the value of speed (makign the panther even weaker than it was). Just compare the Panther and redeemer. The ammount of DPS and tank difference is VERY large. Please do not use HAIL as a standard ammo to measure Minmatar ships damage, since all other races can achieve basically same damage as T2 ammo with Navy Ammo (without tracking penalties).

When you compare 2 ships of same class and one have more range, more damage more tank, more alpha strike, more space for the jump fuel (due to ammo nature of both) while the other is ONLY 1.5% faster as a counter balance.....


There IS something wrong.

Kesper North
Caldari
Gentlemen of Means
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:51:00 - [48]
 

We are not going to start seeing stealthbombers assaulting cyno jammers directly with this new jump bridge capability. Let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations on this. A typical cyno jammer assault fleet might be composed of 100-150 remote-repping battleships, and takes 30-45 minutes to take down the cyno jammer. How many stealth bombers would be needed to do the same job? Assuming covert ops 4, a torpedo SB would have 70% of the DPS of an equivalent torp-fitted Raven (with the SB having 3 launchers at 40% bonus to torp damage). So if a 150-ship BS fleet took at best 30 minutes to take down the jammer, a similarly sized SB fleet might take 51 minutes to do the same raw damage. However! This assumes that every pilot does his job perfectly, cloaks before the POS guns can lock, and no ships arrive to defend or repair the jammer. If you take into account:

* Pilots screwing up and getting caught by guns
* Fast-locking interceptors instalocking and pointing SBs before they can recloak, holding them down for the POS guns
* Defending SBs launching bombs
* Smartbombing carriers and battleships repping the jammer
* Titans

You're looking at a dead SB fleet long before the jammer is down.

Next, consider the fact that in order to bridge in that many stealth bombers, you need to either use three blackops or one blackops three times. Four times if you want any recons along. Then there's the fact that if you have 150 SB pilots to throw at the problem, you might as well throw 150 RR BS instead...

No, I don't think it's practical or wise.

Instead, here's my cyno jammer assault black ops vision thing:

1. Black ops cyno equipped covert ops frigate or recon arrives in the target system one or more days ahead of time and logs off.
2. The rest of the black ops fleet stages to an empty system within jump range of the target and logs off.
3. The day of the op comes, the usual RR BS fleet forms up, and it and its support travel to the target system as per normal.
4. The enemy learns of the approaching BS fleet and forms up for home defense, presumably camping the target system gate.
5. The black ops fleet logs in, and the black ops bridges them into the target system. They immediately attack the gatecamp while they have the advantage of suprise. The tactic is focused fire on single targets, hoping to alpha individual defenders then recloak. Bombs may be deployed if the attackers are hugging the gate or otherwise close together. Void bombs might be particularly effective against RR BS gangs.
6. A wing of blackops might also specifically target interdictors and mobile bubbles.
7. The suprise black ops attack having weakened the defenders' strength and strategic position, RR BS jump in with their support and begin the mop-up, then leave the support to secure the gates while they begin the cyno jammer assault proper.
8. The cyno jammer falls, dreads jump in, and the rest, we hope, is history.

Thoughts?

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:52:00 - [49]
 

hey hey

can we have the jump range improved pretty please with sugar on top.

i would love a recon fleet to have the ability to bridge/jump the same range as a dread/JF so it can act as an escort of sorts. atm the blackops has awfull jump range and some systems are so huge that the system next door is as far as a blackops can bridge :/

1. get recon scout in system
2. safe up, pop covert cyno
3. bridge recon "fleet"
4. jump dreads/JF
5. ?????
6. Profit

Shattered Crystal - 60 day GTC

Kesper North
Caldari
Gentlemen of Means
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.03.31 21:55:00 - [50]
 

Hrm, there where a few places there where I said "black ops" and meant "stealth bomber".

Malen Nenokal
The Nightshift
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:05:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Malen Nenokal on 31/03/2009 22:05:25
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/967426/page/1#1

Stealth Field Emitters plz YARRRR!!

Quote:
Black Ops Stealth field emitters are deployed much like an interdiction sphere but cannot be deployed in .5 or higher. Can only be deployed by Black Ops. If gate guns, stations, or stargates are within the sphere, it will aggro them and be destroyed. This means they can only be used at planets, moons, belts, and safespots. After ten minutes, the stealth field will run out of capacitor and shut down. To keep it running, cap transfer modules will have to be used on it.

The deployed stealth field emitter would have a 50km range and would have the following effects on those inside:
-Remove you from local
-When you appear on scanner, you appear as an 'Unidentifiable Entity'.
-90% loss of scan resolution

Scanner isn't completely removed in order to give people at least a fighting chance of detecting a surprise attack. If the fleet properly sets up a deep safespot, complete secrecy can be achieved. The 90% loss in scan res is to prevent groups from setting this up within combat range of a gate, you will need to leave the sphere in order to engage in proper combat.

VoiceInTheDesert
Inroads
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:27:00 - [52]
 

<3 bypassing cyno jammers. Might actually cause the sov map to change from time to time.

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:28:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Javelin6 on 01/04/2009 01:27:02
Being able to just into cyno-jammed systems is OUT-FREAKIN-STANDING. Tweaks to scan res and cargo hold sizes are great too. However if fuel bays are a PITA to integrate, then how about just adjusting the fuel burn formula for portals? It would accomplish the same thing with less dev time.

Something else to consider is maybe a bonus of some sort (skill or ship) to fuel consumption for covert portals. Again it would accomplish the same thing as a dedicated fuel bay with less dev time.

And to echo my CEO: agility bonuses (or speed for that matter) on black-ops battleships is stupid. Its the automotive equivalent of putting a racing suspension on a city bus. No one gives a "flying blue f***" that you can take corners at 10 MPH instead 8.

That said I am very excited to test these changes.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:40:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Fenix Zealot
Is there a plan to allow them to use the covert ops cloaking device.

It has been argued that due to the price of the ships, and their limited role offensively, as well as their vulnerability defensively, they should be allowed that feature.

Should I point to the Titans? Noone was even thinking about possibility to have them produced on a scheduled basis, not to say use them in gangs.
Now they are as common as any other ship in game, aside those unproducable and unobtainable State Ravens and Silver Magnates.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:41:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Samiloth Justinian
I will hope this means more types of ships can be bridged by a Black Op (by somehow classing them as cov op ships), or is it the brawler falcon and short range torpedo bomber that will become the ships to use against POSes?


No, he mean the killing of the Stealth Bombers...

Nimrel
Caldari
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:49:00 - [56]
 

While you're updating, I'd love to see a bit of "T2 Love" given to the Widow. I was surprised that when I got down to stats comparisons between my 60 MISK Scorpion and my 600 MISK Widow that my Widow was actually weaker toe to toe than its T1 brother. Special abilities aside, I'd really like to see my T2 BS have better combat stats. It doesn't need to be a p0wnmobile, but given that this ship costs almost as much as a carrier, could it at least be given T2 resists so it has a much better tank? The Widow is already dps limited so a high resist tank won't be overbalancing but it sure will make me feel better about bringing it out of the hanger and into the danger of combat.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:51:00 - [57]
 

Naive kids... are you seriously thinking that CO gang could have more than eight bombers without being unable to cloak at all due to "you are too blobbed" message?

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:52:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Nimrel
While you're updating, I'd love to see a bit of "T2 Love" given to the Widow. I was surprised that when I got down to stats comparisons between my 60 MISK Scorpion and my 600 MISK Widow that my Widow was actually weaker toe to toe than its T1 brother. Special abilities aside, I'd really like to see my T2 BS have better combat stats. It doesn't need to be a p0wnmobile, but given that this ship costs almost as much as a carrier, could it at least be given T2 resists so it has a much better tank? The Widow is already dps limited so a high resist tank won't be overbalancing but it sure will make me feel better about bringing it out of the hanger and into the danger of combat.
That's a basic problem of all BO ships. When people start analyzing stats and setups, they realize BO are little to no better than t1 ship. The only worthy thing they got is this special ability with cynos and the cloak bonus

It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes

Nimrel
Caldari
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2009.03.31 23:14:00 - [59]
 

One thing that's making me nervous about the BO Covert Bridge is that with all the changes we're talking about in SBs, we may find the fleet that we can bridge in is very weak in certain areas. The biggest worry I have is if all I can bring in are SBs (only good against BC and BS with the torp changes) and Force Recons with their very limited DPS, a BO bridged fleet will be extremely vulnerable to counter fleets containing Frigates and Cruisers.

Perhaps if we could bridge in the more "dps-worthy" Combat Recons to make up for lack of frig/cruiser dps of the SB, this would help BO fleets keep fights in balance...

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 23:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
That's a basic problem of all BO ships. When people start analyzing stats and setups, they realize BO are little to no better than t1 ship. The only worthy thing they got is this special ability with cynos and the cloak bonus


That was a sole purpose of T2 ship design. Minimal resists increase just to prove them slightly more resilient without being OP.

Quote:
It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes

Dead sir ever heard about Marauders?


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