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Bastaardicious
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.04.03 08:58:00 - [241]
 

Then CCP should look into giving bonusses on ECCM instead of degrading the other. Some races have terrible sensor strength, that's the nature of that race. You want to fix that by nerfing the falcon? Try increasing the weak race's sensor strength instead.

Yourdoom
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:07:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Yourdoom on 03/04/2009 09:27:54
Edited by: Yourdoom on 03/04/2009 09:22:24
Edited by: Yourdoom on 03/04/2009 09:15:21
First of all ... just leave the scorpion exactly as it is now.

Nerfing it aswell as the falcon will just leave no viabile option.
As far as it si now scorpion has the exactly same optimal as falcon ( please do the math and check ) only a 5% lower strength / level. This is countered by another low slot and more mids.


Reasons scorp is underrated as it is now are:

-urban mith that scorp has lower optimal range
-no cloak
-worse lock time
-slow as a brick


On the other side scorp as it is now can perfectly be used as a counter to falcon... with a good set up it can achive over 100 sensor str witch will make falcon miss 2 out of 3 cycles while it can perma-jam falcon from same range.

Just ... leave at least scorpion as it is.

My opinion is eccm is that what it's broken. Fixing eccm will provide that rock/scissor/paper feeling once again. You have a long range eccm ship -> good you are safer. You dont you suffer.

might find some sucky(rightnow) ships and give them increased range ( with low dps ) and better sensor str making them viabile anti ECM ships. we want diversity. no ? making falcon suck in every scenario wont give us that. it will just remove one more ship caldari fly.

second edit:
for example give stealth bombers eccm and covops cloak bonus will make them MUCH more attractive while making fights more intresting and surprising.

falcon uncloaks -> surprise , ranged stealth bomber uncloaks and kills or scares falcon surprise again.

this will give reaction time a meaning again. right now it has none. sith @ 200 km and jam. taht's all. with this you will have to be carefull if you see a stealth bomber uncloak you will have to react or have your fleet react to save you. bombers will have a more tactical role. they will have to know when/if to decloak.

also making a falcon use it's entire strength to jam a bomber will also practically make it not usefull.

ppl complained about too few ways to counter falcon, nothing else.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:46:00 - [243]
 

Ofcource it would be best leave Scorpion as it is currently (with correbonding changes to ship bonuses to take into account changes to ECM mods and SDA'S).

One of main reasons to use Scorpion in fleets currently is that it is relatively easy for carebear to get into and do something. Ie BS lev 4, ECM skills at 4 is considerably shorter training time than T2 guns plus ship itself is relatively cheap (altho will be primary more often than not). Granted with attribute remapping available it's no longer so big deal if you have carebear char and want to go combat.

New Scorpion will not be quite cutting it at fleet ranges with just lev 4 skills - it will need approx same amount of training as other fleet ships do (ie 2-3 months) and thus in the future it popularity will most likely fall somewhat. At least thats what I would speculate - if you have to pick either T2 guns or max skills for ECM I sure know what I would pick as first preference.

With max skills it will outperform dampeners on the same ship at fleet ranges. I have still not tested it myself so can't comment if it would need the rigs at all costs to reach fleet ranges. Currently they are used quite often without any rigs as they are usually considered 'suicide' ships in fleet battles.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:54:00 - [244]
 

Muahahaha

On the test server, T2 Ecm modules optimal range changed 54km to 32km.
Nice work CCP.

Overbrain
Posted - 2009.04.03 11:15:00 - [245]
 

Long ranged tactical race the "Caldari" is becoming more close range and brawler race every year :D

Couple months later, i fear caldari ships will gain bonus to blasters and only allowed to use ecm bursts lol . Still no tank and tackle, its their trademark.

Seth Quantix
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2009.04.03 11:44:00 - [246]
 

good work,

OggerPL
Posted - 2009.04.03 13:05:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Bastaardicious
Can't all those whiners about ECM just please fit ECCM as that is intended to counter ECM ? And then stop whining?

This whole nerf gives me the thought that if you bash the CCP forums long enough about a certain ship, with enough people, you will get your way eventually. Falcon is a good ship, and the people who cry about ECM should reconsider their fittings IMO. This game is all about strategy, and you can't expect it all to go the way you want it to go. Stop whining, more ECCM, everyone happy.

Very Happy


Yes but to do this someone need to think Rolling Eyes but noooooo I will lose my dps ;/

Young Team
Posted - 2009.04.03 13:39:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Ofcource it would be best leave Scorpion as it is currently (with correbonding changes to ship bonuses to take into account changes to ECM mods and SDA'S).

One of main reasons to use Scorpion in fleets currently is that it is relatively easy for carebear to get into and do something. Ie BS lev 4, ECM skills at 4 is considerably shorter training time than T2 guns plus ship itself is relatively cheap (altho will be primary more often than not). Granted with attribute remapping available it's no longer so big deal if you have carebear char and want to go combat.

New Scorpion will not be quite cutting it at fleet ranges with just lev 4 skills - it will need approx same amount of training as other fleet ships do (ie 2-3 months) and thus in the future it popularity will most likely fall somewhat. At least thats what I would speculate - if you have to pick either T2 guns or max skills for ECM I sure know what I would pick as first preference.

With max skills it will outperform dampeners on the same ship at fleet ranges. I have still not tested it myself so can't comment if it would need the rigs at all costs to reach fleet ranges. Currently they are used quite often without any rigs as they are usually considered 'suicide' ships in fleet battles.


This.

Leave newish Caldari characters with something to do in sniper fleets - please.

Zaraki KenpachiSan
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:37:00 - [249]
 

All this work and efforts to make ecm even better.
And you didn't give a f*k when destroyed the dampeners.
Try to fix other races too, caldari are not your only sons.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.03 14:43:00 - [250]
 

Hey Folks,

Quick updates on changes coming to sisi for testing over the weekend:

Scorpion

we changed the bonus back to 20% ECM optimal range per level. Still means a range reduction due to the base jammer stat changes but will give you more ECM accuracy at longer range.

Widow

The ECM strength bonus has been increased to 30% as its focus is short to medium range.

We will respond further to the feedback from the last few pages later on.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:00:00 - [251]
 

After looking over the changes, I have to say I'm not particularly fond of most of them as I believe jamming is already too powerful and should be toned down somewhat to make for more enjoyable fights, not just "Falcon Online". I also thought the original idea of making the falcon a short range jamming boat was awesome since it a.) brought it into line with other force recons (i.e. pilgrim has shorter-ranged nos/neuts than the curse) and b.) gives it a serious drawback for being able to cloak; it also allowed people to respond more effectively to the falcon they didn't know was there ahead of time instead of being stuck with just saying "crap, we're screwed".

Anyway, all of that said, I do have a request: if the widow must be a short-range jamming boat, then it must be able to fit some sort of tank. Would it be possible to grant it another low or something similar to give it the ability to fit a more effective buffer while still fitting enough SDA's to jam effectively or BCUs to DPS effectively? (Also, please note that it's my personal opinion that the widow should not be a jamming ship at all; even a 30% jamming strength would not be enough to compensate for its drawbacks, especially if cynoing directly into combat where it will end up in weapons range of the enemy immediately.)

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:17:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hey Folks,

Quick updates on changes coming to sisi for testing over the weekend:

Scorpion

we changed the bonus back to 20% ECM optimal range per level. Still means a range reduction due to the base jammer stat changes but will give you more ECM accuracy at longer range.

Widow

The ECM strength bonus has been increased to 30% as its focus is short to medium range.

We will respond further to the feedback from the last few pages later on.



Nice!

Now I can throw away the SDA II

And good one on the Scorpion regarding fleet setup.



Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:37:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Scorpion

we changed the bonus back to 20% ECM optimal range per level. Still means a range reduction due to the base jammer stat changes but will give you more ECM accuracy at longer range.


Oooh nice. I don't think that the current TQ fleet Scorp is regarded as overpowered, so it would be good to see it not hit too hard here.

Hesperius
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:51:00 - [254]
 

After spending many hours using it on the test server - I LOVE the Rook the way it is now.

I have not actually used or seen anyone else using the Scorp or Falcon, so no opinion there.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:51:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 03/04/2009 15:53:12
Originally by: Wrayeth
After looking over the changes, I have to say I'm not particularly fond of most of them as I believe jamming is already too powerful and should be toned down somewhat to make for more enjoyable fights, not just "Falcon Online". I also thought the original idea of making the falcon a short range jamming boat was awesome since it a.) brought it into line with other force recons (i.e. pilgrim has shorter-ranged nos/neuts than the curse) and b.) gives it a serious drawback for being able to cloak; it also allowed people to respond more effectively to the falcon they didn't know was there ahead of time instead of being stuck with just saying "crap, we're screwed".

Anyway, all of that said, I do have a request: if the widow must be a short-range jamming boat, then it must be able to fit some sort of tank. Would it be possible to grant it another low or something similar to give it the ability to fit a more effective buffer while still fitting enough SDA's to jam effectively or BCUs to DPS effectively? (Also, please note that it's my personal opinion that the widow should not be a jamming ship at all; even a 30% jamming strength would not be enough to compensate for its drawbacks, especially if cynoing directly into combat where it will end up in weapons range of the enemy immediately.)


You are making assumptions based on TQ mechanics. And I doubt you will see any more of those 200km permajamming falcons.

The strength havent changed much, but the range has been reduced drastically. 48km optimal on a falcon. Thats within range of drones.

You alot more choices when it comes to countering a falcon.

-Drones, if fear of falcon with range fit, you can fit a dronelink which will boost drone range by 20km.

-Most midrange fit ships will be able to reach it. Falcon will either pop very fast if engaged, or forced of the field quite quickly if it misses a jam.

Another important factor is also the falcons need to fit a small tank now. Which will reduce it`s overall ECM capacity.

It sounds from you post that you want to have tank or max damage on top of jamming.

But as you said, you dont feel the widow should jam.

So theres nothing stopping you from fitting tank modules in those midslots and 3 or 4 BCU in the lowslot.

If you use your mids to tank/buffer and lows for BCU you reach reach 91k EHP and 996 DPS with navy torps with plane T2 mods.



Ol' Delsai
Caldari
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:12:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Responding generally to some suggestions:
Close range scorpion was cool, we want that!

It definitely had a role and a place and we liked it however it did leave a big gap in the fleet warfare role combined with the other changes (though perhaps this is indicative of deeper issues with fleet warfare and use of engagement ranges as a whole which rule out many ships from having a place there).

Making a hybrid role scorpion that could do both roles would be too powerful overall and would break the two bonuses for Tech 1 ships rule. This is perhaps something we can address one day with ideas like configuration rigs but that is a drawingboard idea.



First of all, thanks a lot for all your implication there and the real discussion you have with your customers.

And you are right, close range scorpion was cool, really cool, even too cool or too powerful for a Tech 1 ship if it was made a hybrid role (short and long) ship.
Then, why don't you change the widow to have this cool hybrid role ? It would make a real brawler ECM platform (assuming you put in it more T2 shield resists) and, at last solve the role issue of the caldari black ops.
A tanked torp widow with short ECM range would be really and absolutely a great ship ...

Dee Carson
Caldari
Child Head Injury and Laceration Doctors
Posted - 2009.04.03 17:20:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

It definitely had a role and a place and we liked it however it did leave a big gap in the fleet warfare role combined with the other changes (though perhaps this is indicative of deeper issues with fleet warfare and use of engagement ranges as a whole which rule out many ships from having a place there).


Any doubt about which role in general and which specific Caldari ship will get the nerf-bat next?

It is clear that the direction of the majority of the recent and proposed changes is to force everyone to operate within the engagement range of everyone else. Gank & tank. No strategy, no tactics, just may the biggest blob win. ugh

DC




DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:32:00 - [258]
 

The comparisons to the Curse/Pilgrim combo just doesn't fly. The Pilgrim is my favorite solo ship. It has 5 lows, 5 mids, and 4 highs. One ewar type in the highs, one in the mids, and a full five low slot tank. <----- This all while being able to do some decent dps, completely break the tank of target, and fit a point/web if needed. The Falcon will never come close to any of these things. It's sole Ewar is mid slots, it's a shield tanking race, and add a point a web to that. Sure you can fit an armor tank in the lows but it's the weakest of all recons. The DPS is pathetic when you consider you are going against a full tank so the Falcon will never kill anything on it's own.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:36:00 - [259]
 

With all of the changes the Falcon, Rook etc. are still just as powerful as they ever were with respect to jam strength. This doesn't solve anything. When I'm permajammed by someone at 50km or 200km, I'm still permajammed.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:49:00 - [260]
 

Edited by: isdisco3 on 03/04/2009 18:50:19
These changes are not enough, not nearly. All you're saying is that falcons will have to move from 200km to 100 (minimum, as you said its w/out SDA's or rigs), and they're still going to be able to jam an ECCM'd battleship without any problem. Except they'll be doing it from 100 (minimum) and plinking it with railguns for added annoyance. Falcons won't come in close because their tank will remain their range; if they come in close, even while perma-jamming their enemies (which they're going to be able to do, just as now, very very easily), all they have to do is put out drones which auto-aggro and kill said falcon.

tl;dr the changes only change the range at which falcons will be jamming everyone on the field. they'll still be jamming everything, they'll still be overpowered, they're just going to be doing it at 100 instead of 150.

Also, I think the changes are being mis-marketed. It's not a nerf. Given how the falcon's primary role in eve is to annoy the sh*t out of every player they come up against, allowing falcons to put dps on them as well makes them even more obnoxious.

I do think the changes to the scorp are good though. Makes more sense for it to be long-range.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.04.03 19:37:00 - [261]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 03/04/2009 19:40:55

Quote:
It's not a nerf.


You seriously think that Falcons/Rooks will take risks and go at less than 100 km in fleet battles ?

It is a nerf, and a serious one. And instead to whine of their strength against ECCM-fitted ships, just whine about the useless ECCM module.

It is tiring to see how everyone want nerf everything when there is only one thing to BOOST. Repeat after me : B-O-O-S-T...

CCP should boost ECCM to make them interresting.

All Recons are now for low-range fights... The difference between Rook & Falcon is only the Covert Ops and a small bonus... The Rook will be better for roaming, so like this, for me, the Falcon is definitively dead. And I doubt that anyone will use Recons in fleet fights, as they are unable to tank, and now more close of all FOE, so less survival capacity...

But at least, the Scorpion seems nearly OK. Less strength or more SDA to have it, and a correct range if the ship is dedicated for this, but he will have some difficulties to tank something, or fit something (more SDA = less PDS/RC). We will have to choice.

It would be a good idea to find a way to make any others EWAR interresting. Give us choice, give us diversity. People are annoyed by jam/disrupt/others ? They just have to ADAPT and find counter-measures.

We don't play at "Tank/DPS Online". Well, we nearly play at this game as people don't like complexity and whine all the time on it...

I would prefer restore the range of the Falcon at a limit of 160 Km maximum with Skills/SDA (The ship would be at the range of every BS and same some HAS like Eagle), but by keeping the fall-off idea. Find a way to make a Falcon user unable to permajam because of a Capacitor leak (or no capacitor leak at the cost of some Cap Recharger fitted... So less Jam modules). This would reduce permajam, or make it on less targets at the same time. And why not, reduce his jam strength to 11 maximum.




Linavin
Mercurialis Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:18:00 - [262]
 

Quote:
Leave newish Caldari characters with something to do in sniper fleets - please.


Isn't that the reason the Rokh exists? Is training sharp shooter 4 and caldari BS 4 really too much? Its a dead simple to fly too, no extra locks to worry about, just the targets the FC calls. Oh and unlike the scorp it can be very easily DD tanked without any determent to its role in the fleet.

Do the Caldari really need another fleet battleship? I still don't see any reason why the Caldari should get another long range fleet ship instead of a solid close range brawler. So what if the greenest of the green Caldari characters can't fly it in fleets. What about everyone else who can fly the Scorpion with more than 5 million skillpoints? Is CCP intending condemn the Caldari Battleship skill into just another prerequisite save sniping fleet fights and PvE?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:59:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 03/04/2009 19:40:55

Quote:
It's not a nerf.


You seriously think that Falcons/Rooks will take risks and go at less than 100 km in fleet battles ?



I could care less about fleet battles. Use Scorpions instead. Give them a role ffs. Why should a Falcon be *the* tool for every situation?

That being said, the Falcon will still be doing exactly what it's doing now after the change: ruining small gang PVP.

I was looking forward to being able to bring something other than my Falcons to PVP, but I guess not. I'll still be stuck with needing 3-4 Falcons in every gang, and nobody will be killed because everybody on both sides will be jammed 100%.

KissedByDeath
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:23:00 - [264]
 

all of you stop whining about ecm and get over it. fit an eccm, sacrifice a mid/low slot. Enough nerfing caldari.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:39:00 - [265]
 

Guess my sarcasm was a bit too subtle :P

Of course its a nerf, but its not enough of one. It should have either a range or a strength bonus, having both is bad. All the other cloaking recons (rapier, razu, pilgrim) have two bonuses but in different areas - it would be as if the rapier got a bonus to web range and web strength per level. It's overpowering.

And only a moron could say "fit ECCM, get over it" as if that's the solution. I've been perma-jammed by falcons in my bs with an overheated ECCM before. That's not game complexity, that's just dumb. Whenever it gets to the point of "you can't go out in a gang without xxx ship," there's something wrong with how balancing is working. And the proposed changes at the moment will still make falcons perma-jam me, but a little closer, and maybe with dps (which they won't use).

tl;dr give falcon either a strength or range bonus, don't give it both.

puckohontas
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:53:00 - [266]
 

i see this as a boost to rook instead of a nerf
ive been using falcon as a close range brawler anyway with 1600plate

glad i can fit some bcu's on the rook and some ecm and mwd and point and go solo roam in lowsec

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.03 22:18:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 03/04/2009 22:46:04
Edited by: The Djego on 03/04/2009 22:42:37
Edited by: The Djego on 03/04/2009 22:21:09
Originally by: KissedByDeath
all of you stop whining about ecm and get over it. fit an eccm, sacrifice a mid/low slot. Enough nerfing caldari.


Fighting over 5 Minutes against mutliple Ships(ok not actualy shooting because I was permajammed by a Falcon, but tanking and looking for a chance to get a lock) with a over heated ECCM on a Tier 3 BS, I can say ECCM is one of the most useless mods in PVP you can fit. It is a pure joke, it is like fitting a Cap Recharger to fight a Neut Domi, it is fare to weak to do anything that would change the outcome of the fight, the Cap Recharger is even supperior since it gives me a advantage when Im not neuted to hell, the ECCM only helps agaist jamming, while still dooing not even this to a amount that make it worth fitting(as a single module, not 2-3 ECCM you would actualy need to get a halve decend ECM protection on a BS with one of the highest Sensor strenght of all sub Capital Ships, and yes I have seeing even Carriers with 170 points of Sensorstrenght jammed out of 50% of the fight). Embarassed

ECCM isnīt a counter it is a joke, boost ECCM to give a real defence against ECM even on small ships and nerf Faclons down to a real combat range, so people have a reason to use other ECM ships if they need the range. Nobody uses other ECM ships not because they are weaker but because they canīt fit a COC what is extrem powerfull combined with the extrem range of Falcon(it would still be fare better than my Arazu if the Ship is limited to sub 50km range). If 6 out of 8 Recons can operate on sub 50km range there is no reason why the most powerfull(that combines the most powerfull EW, with the most useless counter, with the Cov Ops Cloak and the biggest range) should not.



DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.04.04 00:26:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Edited by: isdisco3 on 03/04/2009 18:50:19
These changes are not enough, not nearly. All you're saying is that falcons will have to move from 200km to 100 (minimum, as you said its w/out SDA's or rigs), and they're still going to be able to jam an ECCM'd battleship without any problem. Except they'll be doing it from 100 (minimum) and plinking it with railguns for added annoyance. Falcons won't come in close because their tank will remain their range; if they come in close, even while perma-jamming their enemies (which they're going to be able to do, just as now, very very easily), all they have to do is put out drones which auto-aggro and kill said falcon.

tl;dr the changes only change the range at which falcons will be jamming everyone on the field. they'll still be jamming everything, they'll still be overpowered, they're just going to be doing it at 100 instead of 150.

Also, I think the changes are being mis-marketed. It's not a nerf. Given how the falcon's primary role in eve is to annoy the sh*t out of every player they come up against, allowing falcons to put dps on them as well makes them even more obnoxious.

I do think the changes to the scorp are good though. Makes more sense for it to be long-range.


You need to go back and read this thread slowly. They removed the Falcon range bonus so what are you talking about? Permajamming at 100km is going to be next to impossible. Have you actually been on the test server and tried anything you are speaking about. Read my post above with real numbers from TQ and SISI with same setup. Currently with 3 SDA II's, 2 particle dispersion projector, and max skills you get 74km optimal. I don't see people using this fit either because it's stacking nerfed the gains after the first three mods are minimal. So I see most Falcon's in the 68K max optimal areaAt 100km your ecm strentgh has went down significantly since you are over halfway into falloff. This was a 68% reduction in optimal from the same setup on TQ.

Darnoth El'lyan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.04.04 01:16:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Re: the scorpion change:

This was a tough call, the close range role would have been great for gang work but combined with the other changes meant there was not a long range variant and the battleship class made more sense to have in this role for fleet warfare despite the cool short range role it could of had.



No. There is no "cool short range role". Giving ships with no tank a "short range role" is ******ed at best. I'm glad this got changed because no matter how "cool" you think it is, it would have made the ship worthless. Much like any ship that specializes in target painting, weapon disruptors, sensor dampening.......

arjparking
Posted - 2009.04.04 02:20:00 - [270]
 

as a scorpion pilot i endorse that change. scorps could just not compete with the falcon and dad several disadvantages


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