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Vigaz
Posted - 2009.04.01 16:38:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Vigaz on 01/04/2009 16:39:05
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Baudolino
Falcon with damage and drones? Who comes up with this crap. Falcon is paper thin- it`s like the stealth bomber- if someone targets it- it`s dead.


Current Falcons are paper-thin because they have no tank fitted. It's quite straightforward to get over 30k EHP on a Falcon (while retaining 5x ECM), putting it at similar EHP levels to any another tanked force recon.

You can do it on a Rook as well, although you'll have no PG to fit any weapons afterwards. PG boost needed there.


Could u please post falcon fit to reach 30k EHP?

meanwhile let me post a sample Rapier fit (I'm not a Rapier pilot... so forgive me for that... just try to compare with the high tank capability of the new Falcon):

Short version:
Speed 2000m/s
29k EHP
286 DPS
3x Web
covertop cloaking


Full version:

Low:
1x damage control t2
1x power diag t2
2x overdrive t2

Med:
2x LSE t2
1x MWD t2
3x Web t2

high:
3x 425 t2 I dunno what is the best ammo... 286 with Hail M
1x Covertop cloak

Rig:
2x core defence field extender

Drones:
3x Hammerhead t2
2x Hobgoblin t2

no implant - no booster - skills @ 5

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.01 16:58:00 - [152]
 

A Falcon SHOULD NOT have Tank and Gank as good as other recons such as Rapier

Rapier can't neutralize 1-3 people at a time. If you consider the amount of DPS you save on tank from the jamming, it's pretty safe to say - 400 dps (if HAC gang) to 800 dps (if bs)

No other recon can survive better than a Falcon specifically because it can reduce enemy damage to 0. So it just needs a buffer tank for the drones.

And even then, it will pretty much always stay at least 50 km away from the enemy - even the shortest range version. Which is out of the way of most drones and scramblers.

Even at 50-80 km operating ranges, the Falcon will still be the safest recon to use in combat

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.04.01 16:59:00 - [153]
 

This is the tanked Falcon I made up:

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
5x ECM

31,865 EHP. Using faction items is usually "cheating" in this sort of comparison, but AN EANMs are fairly cheap. It's 31,079 EHP with T2 EANM, so maybe not worth the ISK anyway. Rig slots free still. Speed 1100 m/s.

You could criticise this a dual tank. But it's a buffer tank - it doesn't matter where the EHP are, as long as the fit is sensible and the EHP satisfactory. Anyway, does having the DC make it a triple-tank? And spreading the EHP between shield and armour (and structure) avoids resist holes.

In comparison, an Arazu with 1600 plate, DC and dual Navy EANM has 32,040 EHP (30,025 EHP with T2 EANMs) - essentially the same as the Falcon.

Obviously this is a comparison of armour tanks. Whether that's meaningful depends on whether people will prefer to armour- or shield tank the future Falcon, which will probably depend on tactics and the balance between SDAs and rigs. A shielded Falcon with DC, LSE and overheated Inv has 21,302 EHP, for comparison.

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.04.01 17:11:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Winterreign
Not happy with loosing the Scorpion changes.

Scorp is the only battleship with out a damage mod or Rof bonus out of all the battleships in eve.


-BA


The Apoc is calling you for a little chat....

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.04.01 17:13:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Vigaz
Edited by: Vigaz on 01/04/2009 16:39:05
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Baudolino
Falcon with damage and drones? Who comes up with this crap. Falcon is paper thin- it`s like the stealth bomber- if someone targets it- it`s dead.


Current Falcons are paper-thin because they have no tank fitted. It's quite straightforward to get over 30k EHP on a Falcon (while retaining 5x ECM), putting it at similar EHP levels to any another tanked force recon.

You can do it on a Rook as well, although you'll have no PG to fit any weapons afterwards. PG boost needed there.


Could u please post falcon fit to reach 30k EHP?

meanwhile let me post a sample Rapier fit (I'm not a Rapier pilot... so forgive me for that... just try to compare with the high tank capability of the new Falcon):

Short version:
Speed 2000m/s
29k EHP
286 DPS
3x Web
covertop cloaking


Full version:

Low:
1x damage control t2
1x power diag t2
2x overdrive t2

Med:
2x LSE t2
1x MWD t2
3x Web t2

high:
3x 425 t2 I dunno what is the best ammo... 286 with Hail M
1x Covertop cloak

Rig:
2x core defence field extender

Drones:
3x Hammerhead t2
2x Hobgoblin t2

no implant - no booster - skills @ 5


You realize that rapier has the signature of a Battleship?

Vigaz
Posted - 2009.04.01 17:16:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Polinus
Originally by: Vigaz
Edited by: Vigaz on 01/04/2009 16:39:05
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Baudolino
Falcon with damage and drones? Who comes up with this crap. Falcon is paper thin- it`s like the stealth bomber- if someone targets it- it`s dead.


Current Falcons are paper-thin because they have no tank fitted. It's quite straightforward to get over 30k EHP on a Falcon (while retaining 5x ECM), putting it at similar EHP levels to any another tanked force recon.

You can do it on a Rook as well, although you'll have no PG to fit any weapons afterwards. PG boost needed there.


Could u please post falcon fit to reach 30k EHP?

meanwhile let me post a sample Rapier fit (I'm not a Rapier pilot... so forgive me for that... just try to compare with the high tank capability of the new Falcon):

Short version:
Speed 2000m/s
29k EHP
286 DPS
3x Web
covertop cloaking


Full version:

Low:
1x damage control t2
1x power diag t2
2x overdrive t2

Med:
2x LSE t2
1x MWD t2
3x Web t2

high:
3x 425 t2 I dunno what is the best ammo... 286 with Hail M
1x Covertop cloak

Rig:
2x core defence field extender

Drones:
3x Hammerhead t2
2x Hobgoblin t2

no implant - no booster - skills @ 5


You realize that rapier has the signature of a Battleship?


With MWD or without?

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.04.01 17:17:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Polinus
You realize that rapier has the signature of a Battleship?


I don't. I realise that it has a 200 m sig with skills trained and MWD off, but that's not BS-sized. Or even BC-sized.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.01 17:26:00 - [158]
 

A very quick post until we get chance to read over rest of the feedback later. These changes should be on sisi now. There is a known issue which will be resolved over the coming days with the falcon. It currently receives a missile RoF bonus and should be a hybrid damage bonus and does not receive its ECM capacitor bonus.


Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.04.01 17:45:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Endless Subversion on 01/04/2009 17:49:48
I think it's important to remember all the modifiers available to ECM. When the speed nerf hit snakes and rigs got nerfed too, let's not forget the ECM pirate implants and rigs. We've all seen what happens with rigs that are BETTER than modules. Let's bring ECM rig range down to around 10% as well as change the centurion implants to something like smaller range and cap usage.

I'd really like to see ecm-ship optimal, after SDAs, remain inside drone control / fof range. But that might better be served by buffing drone control range and FOF range and intelligence rather than nerfing the ecm ranges.

As to the people complaining about how fragile the caldari recons are...

Their mid and low slot layout and base hp and resists allows them to have JUST as much tank as all the rest of the recons. Everybody else needs to make an ewar/cap/hp tradeoff, now the caldari resons will too. Boo hoo.


A Junior
Posted - 2009.04.01 18:05:00 - [160]
 

why not boost eccm instead redesign a complete ship class???
I don't understand ccp...ugh

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.01 18:05:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
A very quick post until we get chance to read over rest of the feedback later. These changes should be on sisi now. There is a known issue which will be resolved over the coming days with the falcon. It currently receives a missile RoF bonus and should be a hybrid damage bonus and does not receive its ECM capacitor bonus.




Anyone else thinking what im thinking right now?

3x Heavy Neutron Blaster
Coward Ops Cloacking
MWD
Warp Scrambler
4x Multispec ECM
LSE
2x Magstab
1x ECM Mod
5x Hobgoblin

366dps in your permajammed face and if local spikes i just cloak lol

Lady Laserlance
Posted - 2009.04.01 18:24:00 - [162]
 

how about making the gallente recons the stone to the caldari ecm scissors? give them some damp range and locking time love and voila, you have a nice neutalizer. and as an extra plus, it also works out on the RP side.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.04.01 18:50:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Lady Laserlance
how about making the gallente recons the stone to the caldari ecm scissors? give them some damp range and locking time love and voila, you have a nice neutalizer. and as an extra plus, it also works out on the RP side.


Reason why Falcons are atm 'king of the hill' is bcos damps got nerfed. As a sideeffect we also got those scripts that go into damps and tracking disruptors plus some changes to sensor boosters and how they stack against damps.

Avalira
Caldari
The Black Light Foundation
Posted - 2009.04.01 19:02:00 - [164]
 

If the rook is supposed to be a brawler, why not give it a big bonus to ECM bursts? It would be a nice anti-blob get-up-close ECM ship.

KissedByDeath
Posted - 2009.04.01 19:08:00 - [165]
 

Quote:
Anyone else thinking what im thinking right now?

3x Heavy Neutron Blaster
Coward Ops Cloacking
MWD
Warp Scrambler
4x Multispec ECM
LSE
2x Magstab
1x ECM Mod
5x Hobgoblin

366dps in your permajammed face and if local spikes i just cloak lol



lol so make the falcon into a blastertron? lol

I say rook needs to be the brawler not the falcon.

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.04.01 19:38:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 01/04/2009 19:49:36
Looking at the current ideas, the Falcon will still have the best range and be the most damaging to hostiles. And with ships going half the speed (because of the speed nerf) they will still be far away. I would really like to see it nerfed to the range levels of the other Recons. I would even make it not chance based anymore (100% chance) but then make it only 60% effective so say guns would only do 40% dmg.

Mark my words (and you can quote this so I don't change it) the Falcon will still be the most popular Recon after these changes.

deltauk1
MunsterMunch
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.04.01 20:26:00 - [167]
 

I like the look of the new changes, keeping the SDA's is a good thing (splitting the bonus 10% to strength and optimal is good as well) and although fall off will still enable long range jamming anyone who flies a caldari recon will know when your out of optimal your jamming efficiency drops quite sharply, i never go out of optimal when jamming for the above mentioned reason so yes a falcon may still jam at long range but nowhere near the current efficiency and if it wants to make a valuable contribution to a fight it's going to have to come a lot closer and it would make ships fitted with eccm a lot harder to jam out of optimal and retain the modules usability. As for caldari recons still having a longer range than the other races i think it's not a bad balance compared to the damage differences of the other recons they have either more or the same high slots as well as having a minimum of a 40m3 drone bay so if you really want to bring the rook and falcon even closer you've got to give them the drone bay which would be out of charcater of caldari ships as a whole. Finally as for the tank issue, removing SDA's isn't going to 'force' people to tank, with the exception of a damage control if your going to tank a caldari ship it's going to be in the shield department not armor so therefore your going to use your mids not your lows (no point recharge tanking a recon. i think thse 'amended' changes will still force people to 'fly' their ew boat rather than sit stupid distances out 'token' jamming. A lot of people are slating rooks I fly one more than my falcon and know other people who do as well mostly in small fleet pvp. That's my opinion on these latest changesSmile

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.04.01 20:49:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 01/04/2009 20:50:35
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
<snip> Mark my words (and you can quote this so I don't change it) the Falcon will still be the most popular Recon after these changes.

So very true. The Vagabond that was destined for the scrapheap post QR according to these forums is still the 3rd most used ship (probably not 100% accurate but the ratios should be valid enough).

Object of this 'exercise' is to nerf the ECM platforms enough for regular mortals (ie. non fleet snipers) to be able to counter them, but without making them obsolete.

PS: Still hoping that the chance based 'feature' is removed from ECM, that actual counter modules become viable and the cinematic nature of being jammed is removed.

PPS: ECCM is NOT a viable counter as it yields zero benefit except if an ECM boat targets you. SB/Injector/TC/TE etc. all give a benefit which is then reduced by applicable eWar.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.04.01 21:32:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 01/04/2009 21:33:49
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
* SDAs - have them boost all EW

I've seen this mentioned a few times but never a response from CCP as to whether they think its a goer. People crosstrained into Caldari not so much because ECM was massively powerful, but more because the other three racial e-war types were so pointless. The ECM reworking does nothing to fix that, whereas reworking SDAs to boost other e-war types might be some help.

TheLibrarian
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.04.01 22:01:00 - [170]
 

It is sad to see that the scorpion is remaining a very underused ship. While I respect its role for long range jamming in a semi-cheaper ship that has insurance. I also think that your making two ships fill 1 role. That the falcon does better in every way. However I dont know what the final distances are on everything with modules so I could be wrong about this. I need to get on SISI and test.

I was really looking forward to the changes with the scorpion receiving a RoF bonus as were many many pilots. The ship was going to be completely reinvented and used widely by lots of people with those changes. In my honest opinion, I think the scorpion will remain a widely underused ship with its current patch outlook.

Overall I appreciate the reading and the hard work being done to balance ECM instead of just nerfing it into the ground. Lots of people are upset and lots of people are happy. Overall I think the game will benefit when you are able to have a chance of killing falcons. I am not biased either I have spent 3+ months training for a max skilled falcon. I enjoy the overall benefit that the game will receive when we can no longer jam 4-6 ships from 200K and doing it aligned to your other jam spot.


On to more important things, I have a few questions for CCP:

1. How are the modules and rigs going to be stacking nerfed now that SDA's provide str + range. (for example Nanofiber II's stacking nerfed with all other speed modules)
2. Is CCP looking at the rigs and their effectiveness?
3. Is the scorpion change final? It seemed like the other changes were not final but your opinion on the scorpion was?

Thanks for the hard work and reading!



Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.04.01 22:38:00 - [171]
 

Dissapointing to see SDA's back to giving a strength boost.

The biggest problem with ECM has been committing to a fight, having Falcons uncloak, and then being jammed out of the fight = no fun. Losing a fight can be fun - not getting to fight is not.

Smaller ships have low sensor strengths, shorter range, and a dearth of mids for ECCM meaning jamming really hurts. In practice this means you fly small ships and Falcons jam you up the whazoo. Sure they are closer in than before so you will have some options but the strength of the jammers vs the sensor strength of smaller ships needs to be addressed.

I propose:

Buff the sensor strength of ships under BS size!

Do this for the fun factor - do this to give us more effective ship options.

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.04.01 22:48:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: TheLibrarian
I was really looking forward to the changes with the scorpion receiving a RoF bonus

Likewise.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.04.01 23:29:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 01/04/2009 23:29:22
the constant comparisons of the falcon to other recons are annoying me.
Such are just for dogs unless you dont like diversity, the caldari recons are just different! Otherwise, we could make them all do the same across races but color the effects differently and voila we have a perfect balanced, but dull and boring game, where everybody can do the same like others.

L0nz0p
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.01 23:38:00 - [174]
 

are you kidding me?
armor tanking a caldari ship?
bah...

i hope the range cutted by 2/3 will be rerouted on the strenght, or the caldari will get the worst EW of the game: slight more range of others & chance based.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2009.04.02 01:22:00 - [175]
 

i dont see what the problem is with nerfing the falcon's range to 90 + falloff with racials or 70 + falloff with multispecs . . . its still outside the range of everything sub battleship except the eagle/cerberus which are their roles by definition . . .

I also think the signal distortion amps should be changed; It would be interesting if they were scripted modules offering range at the expense of strength or vice versa . . . im thinking unscripted they would do nothing, or offer a small range and strength bonus.

*****
Script 1
+15% range
-15% strength

Script 2
+15% strength
-15% range

Unscripted
+5% strength and range
*****

I also propose a change to ECCM, script it as well.

*****
Script 1
+96% Sensor Strength

Script 2
-50% sensor recalibration time (the duration you're jammed for)

Unscripted
+25% Sensor Strength
-30% sensor recalibration time (the duration you're jammed for)
*****

this would not only differentiate between ECCM and sensor backup arrays, but it would make ECCM effective on frigate class ships because as it stands right now, 2x a laughable jam strength is twice the laughable jam strength.

It would also be harder to perma jam a ship running ECCM

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.04.02 01:28:00 - [176]
 

So basically, you're leaving Falcon's un-nerfed, except of course pirate Falcons. Yet one more advantage goes to non-flashies.

Pirates will not have the range to engage non-flashy targets at gates in low-sec without tanking sentries, but with about a 100k range and slightly less (not much less) jam strength non-flashies can still engage flashies at gates/stations giving non-flashies a significant tactical advantage.

Your best bet, CCP, is to stick with the original changes OR change how ECM works.

I don't feel as though you're really thinking this through.

-Karlemgne

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2009.04.02 02:13:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Without any other rigs or modules fitted with max skills, the BZ-5 (caldari jammer) will have an optimal range of 48km and falloff of 53km with a strength of 11.25 to gravimetric. The same bonuses are applied to the Rook.
Right. That's optimal with no rigs or modules. Except SDAs will give +10% each, and rigs give +20% each. So +30% in modules, +40% in rigs. Looks like ECM optimal will still be on the very edge of RSD falloff. Wonderful. Still no effective defense against ECM.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2009.04.02 02:24:00 - [178]
 

I'm not going to evaluate the proposed changes as much as i am going to suggest a completely different approach :).

Noisrevbus 10-step approach to streamlining ECM ships to their related racial counterparts:

Originally by: "Noisrevbus"

1. Don't split their tank and EWar, split their EWar and damage (like the Amarr).
2. That would mean that you make ECM modules high slot modules.
3. Remove racials, introduce racial scripts to the multispecs.
4. Cut ECM range down to equivalent range of the other races' forms of ranged EWar.
5. The easiest way to execute that is to remove the range bonus from the Recons, but keep it on the Scorpion.
6. Give the Recons a secondary bonus to burst ECM area of effect (as their secondary EWar).
7. Keep burst ECM as a midslot module competing with tank.
8. Keep a drone bay on the Rook as per proposal.
9. Keep the missile range bonus on the Rook, because i like that change (nice tradition from the Caracal).
10. Remove SDA's from the game, no other EWar module has a similar necessity.


This would allow the ECM ships a native midslot tank, which would warrant cutting down their range.
This would provide a choice for the ECM pilot to either go full ECM or mix a bit of ECM with a bit of damage.

An example there would be having say, 5 highs, and choosing between a 5+0 or 2+3 ECM/Launcher split for a Rook. For a Falcon, fitting a cloak comes natural, so it will naturally have one less potential ECM module for internal balance). A Falcon would be unlikely to split in the manner of a Rook, but could still only fit a 4+1 split at most; effectively cutting down it's total jamming modules and the amount of ships it can lock out, in favour of some flexibility against pre-located targets. You would have a ship capable of operating up to around 100km and a bit longer in falloff with racials, and slightly shorter when unscripted (which will put them in sensor dampener range, among many other things). You could have a slot layout along the lines of 5-6-3 (in contrast to today's 4-7-3 on a Falcon). The burst ECM bonus would allow a minor chance to pre-align and potentially shake off tacklers, if the module would reach 20-25km when bonused (thus excluding ships with tackle bonus).

This is just off the top of my head, i'll revisit the thread and possibly add more examples and discussion.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.02 02:58:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 31/03/2009 11:33:45
Originally by: CCP Chronotis



I prefer the previous idea, was more like mine...

Quote:
Kitsune - Frig gangs, can keep a bit of range, around 100km lock range so 4km/s inties arn't on you in under 10 secs like now. Quick lock so should target and have a chance at jamming a bigger ECM ship if in range.

Rook - Best Ranged ECM ship. Offers an additional ECM, some personal defense and a bit more range over a Falcon. 170 Kind of range.

Falcon - Cloaker, around 150 (before ecm range rigs) so not got as many jam chances (1 less mid) as Rook, the range, or personal defence but you do cloak.

Scorpion - Close range ultimate ECM. Best jam chance of the lot, but easy to counter with longer ranged ECM so pilot might have to sacrifice number of ECM for ECCM. Also slowest locking since its a BS so other have chance to jam you first. Decent armour tank and doesn't need sig amps cos of bonus, but can sacrifice tank for ecm strength.


Hence each has it area of control and counter in ECM vs ECM. Smaller ship can jam you before you have a chance. Longer ranged can jam you while you can't reach it. Ultimate strength might have to sacrifice to limit effect of quicker lock+longer range but has slots to do so and does better at jamming stuff it can target+reach.


To me it sounds like your going more back to the: high range+strength ship > med range+strength ship > small range+strength ship. Rather than High range + lower strength / mid range+strength / Low range + High strength.



this

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.04.02 03:25:00 - [180]
 

It`s just frightening to see the amount of whine here now.

Before: Nerf falcon, falcon has to much range!! NERF!

Then they change it so the falcon and rook will never get an optimal over 100km with mods and stuff.

Range on the scorp gets reduced to around 100km optimal.

Main complains before was that "ECM has stupid range, you need to bring it in so we can counter it"

Thats excactly whats happening now.


And now you peeps suddenly complain that the ECM, that is supposed to be fitted on a close range fragile ship is jamming stuff? Give me a break!

Whats the difference between an arazu and a falcon orbiting and putting 3 EW modules on your battleship?

Both will make you useless...

Arazu with damps and T1 rigs will take a single sensorboosted raven down to 20km while keeping him there. And theres nothing the BS pilot can do if the arazu is outside 20km range.

Now lets see if the raven had ECCM and a falcon did the same. We can assume the falcon carried 4 racial and a multi. And a small tank.

In the end it`s a higher chance for the jammers to fail and falcon get locked up then arazu get within locking range of the BS.

Only thing the BS could have done is released drones before he got agro.

And people advocating ECCM is not working, get your head out of the sand please. It IS working and stating otherwise is a bloody lie. Yes it would be cool to get a second attribute to the ECCM, like more targets locked up, small increase in scan resolution etc.

And ECM working better on smaller ships, well surprise, same goes for damps since most smaller ships have shorter lockingrange by default.

Same with damage, no matter how much tank you fit on your cruiser, frig whatever. Your ships WILL be blown out of the sky if you are exposed to superior firepower. No amount of tank will save you.

Same with EW, the smaller the ship, the crappier is the sensors on them. If you are in gang and use a ECCM, you might not notice it in the receiving end if you get jammed. But the guy giving out the love will feel it for sure. ECCM is soaking up jammers.

And just because CCP made damps very hard to use now ( stupid move IMO ) doesnt mean we have to stomp ECM down the same hole.


If the whine squad had just used like 10% of the effort they are using in the NERF ECM crusade, and tried to advocate a boost to the arazu`s and lachesis, then maybe, maybe the world would become a better place.








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