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Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.05 21:31:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 05/04/2009 21:34:15
Here we have the first proof that pirate camps can't wait to have that Falcon nerf.
I just logged 30 mins ago myself and my main into my low-sec homesytem what is heavily camped for weeks now.

Read and enjoy :-)
CCP: please read and rethink :-)

[ 2009.04.05 20:44:27 ] J***** Sch********** > COMMANDER R*TARDO REPORTING FOR DUTY
[ 2009.04.05 20:44:39 ] J***** Sch********** > I MEAN
[ 2009.04.05 20:44:41 ] J***** Sch********** > CALDARI
[ 2009.04.05 20:46:36 ] L***** V***** > heh, was already wondering what p********* is doing without his falcon alt :P
[ 2009.04.05 20:47:30 ] T***** A** > roughing it?
[ 2009.04.05 20:48:47 ] i****** > i know right
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:02 ] i****** > how is he going to be able to kill anyone without dual booting so they cant shoot back? <--- nice try, 99% of my killmails do not involve ECM. Just the tough ones where I did a classic assbomb right into their camp or had to deal with numbers :-D
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:08 ] P********* G******* > I will simply adapt :-D
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:25 ] P********* G******* > you will see, I will see
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:40 ] L***** V***** > you better do, have been on sisi lately ?
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:48 ] P********* G******* > yes
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:52 ] P********* G******* > 71 optimal
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:56 ] P********* G******* > I don't care <--- yeah, I am desparate, tbh. :-D The nerf sucks indeed!
[ 2009.04.05 20:49:57 ] A****P***** > ouch :D
[ 2009.04.05 20:50:05 ] P********* G******* > I will anyway catch you guys random
[ 2009.04.05 20:50:14 ] A****P***** > Looks like we're going to see a falcon loss here and there
[ 2009.04.05 20:50:41 ] L***** V***** > I'm pretty sure I'll kill your falcon alt in the next week sometime
[ 2009.04.05 20:50:46 ] P********* G******* > looks like CCP is supporting camps
[ 2009.04.05 20:51:06 ] P********* G******* > I am pretty sure I will still kill some of you
[ 2009.04.05 20:51:42 ] A****P***** > or nerfing falcon alts
[ 2009.04.05 20:52:16 ] P********* G******* > for what and when I use a Falcon ... that will still work ... more stress, but it will <--- showing up my Poker face :-P
[ 2009.04.05 20:52:30 ] P********* G******* > most of my kills do not involve a Falcon
[ 2009.04.05 20:52:41 ] P********* G******* > just busting a camp will need that for sure
[ 2009.04.05 20:53:00 ] P********* G******* > but I am not that stupid to jump into a prime time DT camp
[ 2009.04.05 20:53:50 ] P********* G******* > smaller camps still will suffer ... but I will lose more Falcons for sure. Guess what: I don't care.
[ 2009.04.05 20:54:08 ] L******** > That's the spirit! yaaarrrrr
[ 2009.04.05 20:54:19 ] L***** V***** > heh, I welcome teh change tbh, falcons in arty range is sexy
[ 2009.04.05 20:54:32 ] P********* G******* > will be interesting to work out some tactics and train more dual stress boxing
[ 2009.04.05 20:55:10 ] L***** V***** > I'd just switch to pilgrim or arazu, falcon gonna be worthless for dualboxing
[ 2009.04.05 20:55:49 ] L***** V***** > unless you're prepared to lose a ton

The bad fact here is: they are right. They will love the nerf because they will kill Falcons easily now.
What I said before in my former post.

DelboyTrotter
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.04.05 21:37:00 - [332]
 

Edited by: DelboyTrotter on 05/04/2009 21:38:47
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
Here we have the first proof that pirate camps can't wait to have that Falcon nerf.
I just logged 30 mins ago myself and my main into my low-sec homesytem what is heavily camped for weeks now.

Read and enjoy :-)
CCP: please read and rethink :-)



First of all, pirating is a legitimate form of gameplay in eve, you seem to think that CCP should in some way be opposed to them?

Second, proposed changes will actually hurt pirate gatecamps, as they will no longer be able to use falcons to jam anyone attempting to bust their camp from outside sentry gun range.

Originally by: Commandante Caldari
The bad fact here is: they are right. They will love the nerf because they will kill Falcons easily now.
What I said before in my former post.


You have just confirmed the dire need for this change, that falcons are near impossible to kill at the moment, unlike any other recon.




Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.05 22:23:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 05/04/2009 22:25:54
Originally by: DelboyTrotter
Edited by: DelboyTrotter on 05/04/2009 21:38:47
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
Here we have the first proof that pirate camps can't wait to have that Falcon nerf.
I just logged 30 mins ago myself and my main into my low-sec homesytem what is heavily camped for weeks now.

Read and enjoy :-)
CCP: please read and rethink :-)



First of all, pirating is a legitimate form of gameplay in eve, you seem to think that CCP should in some way be opposed to them?

Second, proposed changes will actually hurt pirate gatecamps, as they will no longer be able to use falcons to jam anyone attempting to bust their camp from outside sentry gun range.

Originally by: Commandante Caldari
The bad fact here is: they are right. They will love the nerf because they will kill Falcons easily now.
What I said before in my former post.


You have just confirmed the dire need for this change, that falcons are near impossible to kill at the moment, unlike any other recon.






Pirates camping for ages know how to deal with sentries.
I saw camps using Inties beeing remote repped.
A bigger camp shares the sentry fire and just will use rr.
Not a problem for them.

They don't need a Falcon anymore. And if: just in the middle of the camp supported by rr.
Or a better option: just a Pilgrim with ECCM will do the job. Falcon cap drained. Falcon down.
You can waste a slot for a cap booster ofc but that nerfs again the ECM capabilties.
It's hard to catch actually a Falcon on TQ. True. But it's easy to force a Falcon to warp off and move back.
Even if you have gate spots. You need to warp, lose the lock and try again.
The other side usually has their spots too if we talk about a fight with a daily gate camp.
In other situations - fighting at an unknown spot - the Falcon warps usually at 100km.

100km should be the minimum. I want to see 150 km with lvl5 skills and rigs.

Gilbert T
Gallente
Gladiators of Rage
Posted - 2009.04.05 22:28:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Gilbert T on 05/04/2009 22:29:50
the falcon nerf is bull, losing the range advantage in this ship makes it useless. The ECM were already nerfed once making them far less reliable, and without the range bonuses the falcon will be completely useless, in my opinion. I'll have to either train for an entirely different ship and hope it doesn't get nerfed the day I finish (unlikely) or quit playing this game if this goes to TQ. In fact, if this IS going to TQ, I'd like to know now so I don't waste any more money on Eve.

There is the requested opinion of a Falcon pilot, for what it's worth.

- Gil

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:04:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 06/04/2009 07:29:44
Originally by: Commandante Caldari

local stuff

The bad fact here is: they are right. They will love the nerf because they will kill Falcons easily now.
What I said before in my former post.


I as a Pirate love this to, now people actualy have to fight me instead have the easy permajam option from save distance. We can have real PVP here again instead of the "How brings the most Falcons?" game.

Btw I also was amused at the guy with the Arazu/Pilgim comment since I used a Arazu under sentry aggro before and know how hard it is to keep it alive(simply impossible to dualaccount).

As for ballance purpose, preat mutch a failpost of someone that will miss his Falcon backbone for easy mode PVP, nothing more in the end. Stop failing, if I can PVP without a Falcon alt, other people might be able to do this to. Cool

Edit: Personal things removed, sorry I couldnīt resist, looking at your KB stats, but again this isnīt the place for this. Cool

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:17:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Commandante Caldari

Pirates camping for ages know how to deal with sentries.
I saw camps using Inties beeing remote repped.
A bigger camp shares the sentry fire and just will use rr.
Not a problem for them.

They don't need a Falcon anymore. And if: just in the middle of the camp supported by rr.
Or a better option: just a Pilgrim with ECCM will do the job. Falcon cap drained. Falcon down.
You can waste a slot for a cap booster ofc but that nerfs again the ECM capabilties.
It's hard to catch actually a Falcon on TQ. True. But it's easy to force a Falcon to warp off and move back.
Even if you have gate spots. You need to warp, lose the lock and try again.
The other side usually has their spots too if we talk about a fight with a daily gate camp.
In other situations - fighting at an unknown spot - the Falcon warps usually at 100km.

100km should be the minimum. I want to see 150 km with lvl5 skills and rigs.



Again stop failing and stop posting with your Falcon alt. Rolling Eyes
What you request is the Falcon in his most broken environment, nearly as powerfull as it is now for guyes that are used to "I can take on everything with my Falcon alt, because it canīt shoot back.". It is not even funny, it is just sad.


Crazy Tasty
Beyond Divinity Inc
Beyond Virginity
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:49:00 - [337]
 

Objectively, even as a specced ECM pilot, I can't deny the logic behind these changes.

But if the Falcon/Rook will have to be in close for good jam strength, how bout an extra low slow, at least on the Rook, at least for a bit of honor tank and a couple % points on survivability. ECM ships are already instant primary, much more than any other recon would be, range was the only real defense, might need a little something more now.

Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.06 07:38:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 06/04/2009 07:46:02
Originally by: The Djego
I as a Pirate love this to, now people actualy have to fight me instead have the easy permajam option from save distance. I might adimit that it sucks for you now you actualy have to fight people(I actualy loled at the Astarte kill using your Falcon alt to jam this poor guy, I even took one out under Carrier RR with my Mega with both shooting/using Drones at me). Razz

I personaly wonīt miss you guyes, last time I engaged a Mega and a Broadsword under Sentry aggro with my Mega they would both died without her Falcon alt.
Get over it and try to do real PVP again.

Btw I also loled at the guy with the Arazu/Pilgim comment since I used a Arazu under sentry aggro before and know how hard it is to keep it alive(simply impossible to dualaccount).

As for ballance purpose, preat mutch a failpost of someone that will miss his Falcon backbone for easy mode PVP, nothing more in the end. Stop failing, if I can PVP without a Falcon alt, other people might be able to do this to. Cool


The nerf will not change your situation. If you face a solo player tackling you and there's a Falcon at 70 km you are still dead.
It's not a problem of an optimal of 225 you can have with maxed skills and rigs.

I was talking about using the Falcon what it was meant for: even the numbers when engaging someone/a fleet who would kill you easily without ECM.

Example: my main was fighting a Myrm with a Myrm. In the middle of the battle an Abaddon warped in to get the sure kill.
My Falcon jammed the Abaddon only to keep it out of that fight because at this point I had lost. The Myrm was still 1v1 me.
That will still work but now my Falcon could be scared away by drones. Why not.

The bad issue with the change is now that in other situations where you have to fight a fleet or camp the Falcon will die fast. Gate camps will adapt to kill it 100% everytime. So it's useless now for that specific situation. And we need something against these annyoing campers believing they were the best PvPers ever just by filling up killboards. A counter fleet is too hard to bring in all the time so we need something effective for single players or small groups.

Most people think that the goal is to kill everything. No. A Falcon is operating at 180 km usually - even if you have optimal of 228 you will have spots at 180-190 km for the case that ships moving around at different distance to you. So just bring counter ECM or fast tackler, ECCM. It's not a big deal to adapt for that. In my homesystem the actual gate camp is using different tactics now since they lost too much. They bring a Huggin, Arazu, Vaga, Ishtar with Bouncer. Hey, it works. Just the Vaga is enough to keep your Falcon moving and you lose the important time to kill and scare before they kill you.

Dual boxing is not the easy PvP mode if you go for bigger targets. I am not talking about players who bait and bring ECM to kill solo players.
You have tons of unfair situations in EVE. Who ever jumped dual on a nice camp knows what I am talking about.
Example: you face a camp with Broadsword, Astarte, Harbinger, Absolution. Try to fight that in a solo lvl5 skilled Megathron with 1112 DPS.
Even under sentry fire they will kill you. With some luck and imps you eventually can hold long enough to kill the BC. But I doubt that if the camp is experienced and well skilled. The only way to try on them is ECM. Could be that 70 km still works in this case.

ECM just give more possibilities to me. You can have the easy mode. I agree but you can have some nice challange if you go for harder multiple targets.
From that pov you just some kind of mini-blob. Every gate camp is more worst. And if they kill players in that way they just deserve ECM at 200 km. Period.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.04.06 07:58:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Crazy Tasty
Objectively, even as a specced ECM pilot, I can't deny the logic behind these changes.

But if the Falcon/Rook will have to be in close for good jam strength, how bout an extra low slow, at least on the Rook, at least for a bit of honor tank and a couple % points on survivability.


Lachesis has to "tank" with the same number of lows (3), and has to operate in equivalent range as the new Rook.

Welcome to the world of the "other recons" Smile

Gilbert T
Gallente
Gladiators of Rage
Posted - 2009.04.06 08:27:00 - [340]
 

The problem is that in "the world of other recons" things are not hit-or-miss like the ECM is (since it was already nerfed once). If the range is being made shorter to make them more like the other recons, then undo the last nerf so that the jamming stacks again, or better yet, make everything else (target painters, sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, neutralizers, warp disruptors, ...) all prone to "miss" like the ECMs do. Wouldn't it be great if the neutralizers on that curse would just randomly miss an entire cycle, or the warp disruptors on that interceptor? The fact that the ECM is the only form of electronic warfare with that deficiency makes the statement ridiculous. CCP needs to just quit changing ships and modules that people train skills to use and develop countermeasures for them (like they already did with ECM anyway).

Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.06 08:29:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: The Djego


Again stop failing and stop posting with your Falcon alt. Rolling Eyes
What you request is the Falcon in his most broken environment, nearly as powerfull as it is now for guyes that are used to "I can take on everything with my Falcon alt, because it canīt shoot back.". It is not even funny, it is just sad.




Well, my alt is flying the Falcon so I guess I am qualified to post here.
Try to dual box with ECM and tell me IF you can take on everything.

You will expand ofc the chance to win fights where you usually were 100% dead.
Let's say the most nasty case: Thorax with Falcon *** kills BS.
I just say from that pov: nerf blobs, big fleets, camps, carriers camping the gate, nerf everything what's unfair in EVE etc.
Understood!?

You can't take on everything. You can try now to fight bigger things.
Evolve your PvP. Where do you find even fights these days or just an even 1v1?
Very rare.

In my homesystem my main got hotdropped by a couple of carriers at the gate to highsec.
Camping with carriers and a mom. Nice. Why not. Should I whine now: nerf caps into 0.0 because it's so unfair!!!

Where ECM also makes sense: we engaged a couple of them at their station. You know that campers have a great alternative: hug the station.
Problem was: carrier again. The only way to fight them was to jam the carrier because cap rr sucks. :-)
And now try to imagine what happens to a Falcon at 70 km when jamming a carrier with fighters/drones out.
Thanks!

McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.06 08:33:00 - [342]
 

Very recent examples for those saying "falcons cannot die" or "Falcons are kings" etc.

http://blade-alliance.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20235 - People can make mistakes
http://blade-alliance.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20107 - There is no shame in bringing a falcon of your own.
http://blade-alliance.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19856 - Drones auto-aggro and bumpage ftw.
http://blade-alliance.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19869 - Snipey blob. No, he wasn't cynoing.
http://blade-alliance.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19683 - More bumpy action.

Etc... Note the dates. As you can see there are many effective ways to counter falcons. That's the point of these links. There are other dead falcons in between, and there are lots more in the past.

I love the falcon as it is now, because its a double edged sword rather than how most people tend to describe it. Sometimes it's a win button, and sometimes it's the facilitator of overconfidence and complete annihilation of the falcon and its gang. It's much more exciting and challenging to fly with and against them. That's what makes this game more co-operative and that's what you want for it as well.

What CCP suggests now is making everything easier to most ships against the falcon, while nerfing caldari ships even more. Of all the supporters of this change, only Ephemeron's suggestion is an acceptable nerf, as it allows classic ecm-sniper (thought weaker) for the falcon on one hand, while opening new avenues of fits and roles for the ship on another hand, making the nerf less noticable (though it would still be a nerf).

CCP, please, put that bulky chainsaw down and for once take a micro-laser scalpel attitude with this.

Caldari is the only race that must co-operate to survive a fight - no effective solo work for them. Highly specialized ships all over the place makes this race fun and interesting to pvp with and against. I'm really trying to concentrate here on the subject, and not throw in comparisons with other races, which imo are over-powered in other ways, which is fine by me. To each his own. And if someone rather have another race in his disposal, it is well within his ability to do so by either creating a new char or x-train or recruit someone who can do that.

Seriously - concentrate your efforts on bringing totally new things into the game rather than fixing one of your best features in it.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.06 09:45:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Commandante Caldari
Originally by: The Djego
stuff

stuff



I might not fly solo all the time, and if the close range Falcon wouldnīt have a chance to screw me it would be broken(it still has but it isnīt untuchable anymore).

Since you now need a buffer and watch range/aggro/Drones it becomes harder to use on a 2. account, making it fare more likely to kill it if not piloted corcetly like other recons. A failed jam cycle will now eventualy give people the chance to put some drones on him or force him off the field for a short time with Guns/Missles etc and continue fighting against other combat ships.

If you tell me 70km == 200km as operation window, well I fly a Arazu(that sucks but not because of the short range but because of Damps suck on it) and I disagree here.
Other Recons can screw you to, the problem with Falcon was simply it was way out of reach to do something effective against it if the pilote is on the controls.

About the rest.

The Falcon isnīt a tool to take on larger gangs, any larger Gang have a Falcon this days because of exactly this problem that also adds a fare greater Combat value to the gang that any specific anti Falcon fitted combat ship.

Dualboxing with the Falcon is easy mode, it is easy to control, the range gives you a extrem long time to react, the jam cycles are 20 Seconds and as soon as you press F1 for the Cloak you get your 2. Ship out of harm(you can also move it with next to zero risk and other ships wonīt see you in the fist place). Also you can shout down the DPS of 2-4 Ships in small scale, that is extrem powerfull, plus you have the option to get out with the other ships since a jammed ship also looses all his tackle.

Also if you engage a Pirate camp in Low Sec this guyes will allready have Sentry aggro you wonīt with your Falcon, it nerf the Pirates actualy way harder, they canīt even use Drones/Falcons there. 70km is still out of Drone Range, out of Blaster, AK, Puls, Torp Range. People now have to chase you, leaving RR and jump range giving you more options to kill them.

As for the example thats one BS vs a HIC, 2 Commands(that are is a bit under BS performance most of the time) and one BC. You can still use a Falcon in this fight, non of them have the range to do any harm even at 50km, every ship that gooes after the Falcon canīt shoot you. Wink
Well I personaly would try to get back to the gate, if this is not possible I would drop the Harb first(serious thats 20 Seconds in a skilled Mega) shout down the local tank of the Astarte with the Neut and try to drop him before I pop(with a bit of Sentry focus fire this wonīt take long). It is still 1 vs 4 and people could bring a diffrent ship than the Falcon to aid them to.

I admit I might have a bit more than just 1112 DPS with the Mega. Embarassed

Again, no you donīt deserve 200km Range in a Falcon because you think your goal is noble and it aids you. It just screws up this kind of PVP, since many of this camps have a cloaked Falcon somewhere on grid to and screw you even harder, because the number of kills you can get from them is exactly 0 in this way, no matter how awsome your skills or your ship is because you standing there, webbed, pointed, jammed and canīt do anything about it(beside the common more Falcons or bring a blob solution). Confused



welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.04.06 09:49:00 - [344]
 

I quite like the changes overall although I preferred the earlier iteration. However I'm still a bit ****ed off that the Eve populace has gotten away with not having to bother fitting ECCM again. No-one will after this change because there are better counters. This is sad, ECCM should be the main counter.

Another victory for cookie cutter setups.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.06 10:25:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 06/04/2009 10:29:49
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
Originally by: The Djego


Again stop failing and stop posting with your Falcon alt. Rolling Eyes
What you request is the Falcon in his most broken environment, nearly as powerfull as it is now for guyes that are used to "I can take on everything with my Falcon alt, because it canīt shoot back.". It is not even funny, it is just sad.




Well, my alt is flying the Falcon so I guess I am qualified to post here.
Try to dual box with ECM and tell me IF you can take on everything.

You will expand ofc the chance to win fights where you usually were 100% dead.
Let's say the most nasty case: Thorax with Falcon *** kills BS.
I just say from that pov: nerf blobs, big fleets, camps, carriers camping the gate, nerf everything what's unfair in EVE etc.
Understood!?


No!?

Originally by: Commandante Caldari

You can't take on everything. You can try now to fight bigger things.
Evolve your PvP. Where do you find even fights these days or just an even 1v1?
Very rare.


Mayby by flying around and looking for them instead of complaining I canīt take on huge camps in pirate infested systems without my 200km away Falcon alt.
Evolve your PVP, try to fight people that can shoot back or have your Alt at a range where you will loose ships from time to time. Cool

Originally by: Commandante Caldari

In my homesystem my main got hotdropped by a couple of carriers at the gate to highsec.
Camping with carriers and a mom. Nice. Why not. Should I whine now: nerf caps into 0.0 because it's so unfair!!!


Exactly, BECAUSE OF FALCONS.
Since this has actualy nothing to do with Falcons.

Originally by: Commandante Caldari

Where ECM also makes sense: we engaged a couple of them at their station. You know that campers have a great alternative: hug the station.
Problem was: carrier again. The only way to fight them was to jam the carrier because cap rr sucks. :-)
And now try to imagine what happens to a Falcon at 70 km when jamming a carrier with fighters/drones out.
Thanks!


What happens with docking games all the time, bring more numbers or start a contest what side is anoyed enught to leave first.

Well what would happen to the Falcon? I gess the same thing that would happen to a Arazu, it warps and activates the cloak and comming back in after this. A bit tricky I know but it actualy works for me. Neutral
Also using fighters under sentry aggro is a extrem ex*****ve tactic for carrier pilotes and no Carrier under Sentry aggro will leave his Drones in his orbit but use them on Targets as soon as he lunches them.


Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.04.06 11:31:00 - [346]
 

These ships are now broken and useless. I was getting sick of falcons but ffs if you're going to put them in Arazu disruptor range at least let them fit a goddamn tank.

Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.06 12:24:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 06/04/2009 13:02:57
Originally by: The Djego

What happens with docking games all the time, bring more numbers or start a contest what side is anoyed enught to leave first.

Well what would happen to the Falcon? I gess the same thing that would happen to a Arazu, it warps and activates the cloak and comming back in after this. A bit tricky I know but it actualy works for me. Neutral
Also using fighters under sentry aggro is a extrem ex*****ve tactic for carrier pilotes and no Carrier under Sentry aggro will leave his Drones in his orbit but use them on Targets as soon as he lunches them.



Sharing sentry fire is what makes it possible.

Everyone in EVE has a different experience so we see that ECM case from different pov's.
I can understand pro and cons. Radical opinions. Flame wars guaranteed.

I fly a Falcon for a while now and I am not the type of guy who's able to live 50% of his life in EVE.
I am one of the Falcon pilots who understand that a nerf makes sense till a point where the use is getting harder but not completely useless.
Yeah, I speak open: I am dual boxing and that nerf hurts far too much.
I can't fleet up much spontaneaous or planned due to rl just to disturb a frakking 10/7 gate camp who don't care and laugh at us: "So much work for just a senseless act. We just dock, don't care. BBL! AFK!"

Many people have that problem.
It's a game and not life.

EVE does need players like me who have ECMed balls to do something effective against this plaque of campers. :-)

So CCP should read, filter all our endless pro and con whining and decide what's the way to go.
And we will do what we do everytime: adapt!


I would recommend as a sucessful dual boxer - but still losing ships and Falcons to pilots who know how to deal with it: nerf ECM but to a realistic level.
Boost the challange for the Falcon pilot and the chance for the other side. But don't invert it from overpowered to a useless piece of beeing primaried sh*t.
What actually happens on SISI is exactly that.

150 km optimal maximum with maxed skills and rigs. That is what we all can live with.
Realistically a Falcon pilot has to operate at 100-130 with that for a non-falloff ECM.

We have to understand that bringing numbers is not possible for most of the people. Especially for the anti-pirate.
I have never seen fleets protecting a gate for hours. Makes no sense because: no profit, no kills and just boring waste of time.
Especially bigger pirate corps have a great advantage. They just camp the gate for profit in small fleets or at prime time in big fleets making it impossible to break because you need to organize something similar against what they just do every day in a simple way: Login, fleet up, undock, camp. Period.
After a while it's a pure routine with having fun on Vent ... especially at numbers. Some kind of gate mining with a little risk left that some random groups try to bust.

Carrier camping or hotdrops are a result of: BECAUSE, WE CAN! and not: FALCONS.
Noone is skilling a carrier because there are too many Falcons. Sorry, but I have to laugh if I try to imagine that.

P.S.: I have no idea why my post is in italic!

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.04.06 13:15:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
These ships are now broken and useless. I was getting sick of falcons but ffs if you're going to put them in Arazu disruptor range at least let them fit a goddamn tank.


It's trivial to get a Falcon to the same EHP as an Arazu. Next. Neutral

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2009.04.06 13:27:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Gilbert T
The problem is that in "the world of other recons" things are not hit-or-miss like the ECM is (since it was already nerfed once). If the range is being made shorter to make them more like the other recons, then undo the last nerf so that the jamming stacks again, or better yet, make everything else (target painters, sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, neutralizers, warp disruptors, ...) all prone to "miss" like the ECMs do. Wouldn't it be great if the neutralizers on that curse would just randomly miss an entire cycle, or the warp disruptors on that interceptor? The fact that the ECM is the only form of electronic warfare with that deficiency makes the statement ridiculous. CCP needs to just quit changing ships and modules that people train skills to use and develop countermeasures for them (like they already did with ECM anyway).


The key is that none of the other EW can take 100% of the ships in the game out of the fight completely.

A good Arazu pilot can take one or maybe two people out of the fight, if they're not using any form of propulsion.

A great Rapier pilot can take two people out of the fight if they don't have MWD's or long range weapons

A Pilgrim can take someone out of a fight, if they aren't using missiles or projectiles, and at what range?

A Falcon pilot can take 3 people out of the fight pretty darn near 100% of the time at 162K

The balance for all the power of being able to take 3 people out of a fight no sweat is that it doesn't work 100% of the time, only 90% of the time.Rolling Eyes

the fact that they can do this at 162K is just overpowered, and that's what this nerf is addressing (finally).

Plus did you notice? you're the only form of EW with a low slot mod to assist in doing what you do?

Takon Orlani
Caldari
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.04.06 13:46:00 - [350]
 

Honestly, I would prefer the scorp be bonunsed towards brawling. I want to be a 0.4 WCS fitting griefer.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:14:00 - [351]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 06/04/2009 17:14:27
"OMG, if I fit for max jam strength my optimal is 50km!"

So? Don't get that close. Maybe different rigs? Or maybe, just maybe, in order to stay semi-safe you can be further out and only jam the targets half/most of the time instead of ALL of the time.

Get a grip people. CCP is bringing the falcon and other related ecm ships in line with the other race effectivness ranges. (except for pilgrim, its still worthless Laughing - well, most of the time)

No more 100% safe falcon alt crap (thats right, 100%!! because by the time anything can get close you have already warped to another 200km jam spot), you want to do that then at least now we stand a chance. You want to be able to jam me 100% of the time then your gonna have to put yourself in harms way like everything else.

So wipe the freakin tears, its pathetic! Rolling Eyes

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:17:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Takon Orlani
Honestly, I would prefer the scorp be bonunsed towards brawling. I want to be a 0.4 WCS fitting griefer.


That would be cool. I don't fly scorps but an in your face jamming ship would be fun to see in fights. He would be primary but still, to see a jamming boat right there means the guy has a set.

Hayat Siwa
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:29:00 - [353]
 

Quote:
Get a grip people. CCP is bringing the falcon and other related ecm ships in line with the other race effectivness ranges.


says he who rather than using any of the available counters simply wants the ship within his own fighting range. where is your adaptation?

reducing range fine, reducing jam strength fine, change the optimal/fall-off ratio fine, but making the falcon fight at 50k is ridiculous. that's not nerfing, that's creating a new ship.

hs

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:39:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Hayat Siwa
Quote:
Get a grip people. CCP is bringing the falcon and other related ecm ships in line with the other race effectivness ranges.


says he who rather than using any of the available counters simply wants the ship within his own fighting range. where is your adaptation?

reducing range fine, reducing jam strength fine, change the optimal/fall-off ratio fine, but making the falcon fight at 50k is ridiculous. that's not nerfing, that's creating a new ship.

hs


Yeeeaaaahhh..... I just want it to have some risk by being there. So stop with 'spin-his-words' game.

So with the new changes you HAVE to be at 50km to do anything? Is that what you are saying? REQUIRED?!

LtTrog
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:36:00 - [355]
 

My thoughts on this topic….

The Falcon


Ok I admit it the falcon is over powered but if you bring it in close you will destroy it for the reasons already stated.

Please keep the falcon max sniper range as it is now but make most of that in falloff, make optimal the kind of range that puts the falcon in danger from most weapon systems (not blasters that’s just silly)
For the love of god boost ECCM so an inty with a ECCM can really put the ****s up a falcon.
This still allows it to do its current job with out being an all powerful ECM overlord.
Don’t give it a drone bay it’s simply too much on 1 ship if you keep the range

The Rook

25m3 drone bay, yes please sounds awesome
Shorter max range but mostly in optimal, have max optimal about the same as its weapons can hit at
Velocity bonus could be ok if coupled with enough PG to fit HAMs MWD and a bit of tank
Other wise a tank bonus would be much better, 5% resists/lvl wouldn’t be over powered on this ship I don’t think

(OMFG Caldari solo ship woot mofo woot, if this happens im totally flying 1)

The Scorpion/Widow

I am tempted by the idea of a short range Scorp. I think we need to keep a sniper ECM BS though.
Overall the Scorp should have strength in between that of the Falcon and Rook and range on a par with the Falcon.
Let’s make the widow able to work up close and personal with torps with Scorp like strength but less range let’s say short optimal long falloff.

The Blackbird

Fine as is.

EWAR Frigates

Don’t know never used ‘em no one seems to be talking about them. I guess that means no one uses them, so they probably need some love too. Any ideas?

ECCM

Ill say it again boost this so it works better in particular on small ships please

SDA

I like the small increase to both range and strength idea, but id love to see scripts for them. Something working like SEBO scripts would be good i.e. +% in A but -% in B for 1 script and vice versa for the other.
Please lets see the other racial EWARs get some similar kind of mod to boost there range/strength. let’s give the other recons love.
Nerfing all until there is nothing left to nerf is not the way, boost the crappy underused stuff so we have more options and cool stuff to use

Most of what I have said here is what others have said already I just wanted to put it all together in my own words so there is one more post in favour of what I see as the most reasonable changes. Ive not put down actual numbers as I feel that should be thrashed out on the test server (and I cant be bothered to get the calc out ) and when I compare ships im talking about current TQ stats.

So there you go. And guys please don’t get too emo when you reply it makes a stronger argument if you at least try to be objective. Laughing free hugs for the emos

Dale Konstantine
Posted - 2009.04.06 20:04:00 - [356]
 

Sad to say, yes, the falcon with racial ecm is OP, while the multispec ecm is not nearly so far out of balance.
Some ideas:
1. Falcon/Rook bonuses work only on multispec ecm, nerf the range to about 80 km optimal/120km falloff with max skills, before rigs/SDAs.

2. Give all other recons racial ecm bonuses to be on par with the updated falcon/rook.

3. All recons with drone bay gain ewar drone bonuses. Rook gains a small drone bay.

4. Falcon/Rook gain seperate bonuses to ecm burst modules.

5. The targeted ecm randomly determines length of jam (between 1 to 20 seconds)

6. Projected eccm immediately makes a roll to break a jam, having a chance to break the lock of the jammer.

7. SDAs greatly increases strength of one type of ewar modules, at the significant expense of range. SDAs have a flavor for each type of ewar.

8. Signal distortion projector greatly increases range of one type of ewar at the significant expense of strength. Only one SDA or SDP may be fitted at a time.

9. Sensor boosters gain sensor strength script. (This horse isnt quite dead yet.)

10. Improve range bonus on damps, scrams, neuts, TDs, webs, ect. for other recons.

Meatypopsicle
Posted - 2009.04.06 20:33:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Commandante Caldari

Example: you face a camp with Broadsword, Astarte, Harbinger, Absolution. Try to fight that in a solo lvl5 skilled Megathron with 1112 DPS.
Even under sentry fire they will kill you. With some luck and imps you eventually can hold long enough to kill the BC. But I doubt that if the camp is experienced and well skilled. The only way to try on them is ECM. Could be that 70 km still works in this case.


This is exactly why the Falcon is overpowered right now. There is no way that a single cruiser sized ship should be all that is required to turn the tide in that situation.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.06 23:21:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Crazy Tasty
Objectively, even as a specced ECM pilot, I can't deny the logic behind these changes.

But if the Falcon/Rook will have to be in close for good jam strength, how bout an extra low slow, at least on the Rook, at least for a bit of honor tank and a couple % points on survivability.


Lachesis has to "tank" with the same number of lows (3), and has to operate in equivalent range as the new Rook.

Welcome to the world of the "other recons" Smile



The lachesis gets nowhere near the same attention as a falcon. Everyone knows a shortrange ecm ship is useless outside of very small gangs, even if they dont admit it. All this does is put one more ship on the already overfilled scrapheap for mid-larger gangs. Nothing much will change for the very small gangs.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.06 23:27:00 - [359]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 06/04/2009 23:27:24
Originally by: Mycenaean

Take away its range so it equals the Pilgrim/Rapier, and nerf the ECM strenght..



Give my blaster ships equal range to laser ships. etcRolling Eyes

In fact lets make all ships equal but with a different skin.


Pride NL
Posted - 2009.04.07 00:06:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Pride NL on 07/04/2009 00:12:45
Seriously, why bother with dps and a drone bay.

A jamming ship (unless its a scorp) will sit as far away as they can. Because when you jam, you usually do not fit a tank. With drones you can go up to 50km without any added modules. What is the point of that when you fly a ship without a tank?

When you are able to use the drones you are already dead. All cruiser sized ships have either a MWD fitted or can shoot you at that range.

Adding missile bonusses doesnt work either. At best you have 3 high slots availble. Even if you where able to fit 3 HML's, your dps would still be near zero. Thats why people sit at 200km. The only role a falcon has is jamming and not dps.

If you want to nerf falcons because they are too good, reduce their ecm bonus. People dont fly a scorp because a falcon is way better at jamming. On top of that it can warp cloaked.

I'd change the jamming strength of each ship. So based on jamming points the order would be: Kitsune, rook, falcon, scorpion. The kitsune can only jam one ship succesfully, the rook usually is close to the fight as it can carry up to 5 HML.

Besides this I actually think it is more fun to kill a falcon at long range simply because it adds more tactic into the gameplay. When a falcon is under 100km it is cannonfodder. Over 200km it takes skill and preperation to kill one. Sounds like fun to me.


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