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Hayat Siwa
Posted - 2009.04.05 06:34:00 - [301]
 

Quote:
I just see it that way: the nerf is just a result of a big whining of lazy, non-creative players ... not willing to sacrifice a slot for ECCM or thinking about different tactics against a Falcon. And CCP is listening to all these endless petitions or forum threads.


this

interestingly there are no falcon pilots here who argue against a nerf. they all agree that the ship could do with some tweaking. there are shockingly few arguments considering the nature of the falcon, though (long range ecm support).

what is the reason to change the role of the falcon?

Quote:
i can understand the arguments to change the ratio of optimal vs fall-off, i can also see the reasoning behind reducing jam strength, and a somewhat (read slightly) toned down max range. changes in these areas would reduce the effectiveness of the falcon by a good amount while still allowing the ship to be employed in it's current role as a long range support ship.


i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's wrong with this.

hs




Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.05 07:21:00 - [302]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 05/04/2009 10:59:41

Originally by: DelboyTrotter
Yes more fun, they will actually take some skill to fly, rather than sitting at 150k and being untouchable. And yes most likely be called primary just like any other recon on the field.

This is called balancing, and its not an over nerf, current changes are nowhere near enough. Falcons need to be brought into 50km effective combat range, just like all the other recons.

Try flying a rapier.


Disagree! You are touchable at 150 km. Easily, depending on the fleet. Everything depends on the fleet setup you face.
The goal is not to kill the Falcon. The goal is to scare the Falcon off and remove ECM from the fight.

If you engage a camp of 4 BS and some small ships with one BS and you bring ECM you will die at the point when ECM is scared off.
The chance to lose is anyway higher if these guys had fitted ECCM or just bring a Sniper for the Falcon. Or very simple: counter ECM.
Keep in mind that you can't jam everybody and that you can't have the right jam mods for every situation.
Experienced camps/blobs know how to make it hard for you.

I am mainly bringing the example gate campers. Well, that's the worst way of ganking players and give them zero chance.
For busting a camp a Falcon is perfect. But if the camp is not made of noobs and aware they just prepare. With the new nerf they will not just be able to scare ECM off, they simply get a great chance now to kill this ship easily. The will just place one Falcon/Rook at the gate and support them by remote repping when under sentry fire. Your ECM will be disabled and if you stay longer that close they will try to tackle you for sure. Dead!

Before the nerf you had 2 battle fields: the main battle and the fight at distance to keep/disable ECM.

So that actual nerf is not re-balancing ECM. It does not just nerf. It will revert overpowered to useless.

That's my personal opinion as a high skilled and experienced Falcon pilot.

Mistress Frome
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.05 07:24:00 - [303]
 

Give the rook another low~

I want my third bcs >_>

DelboyTrotter
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.04.05 07:59:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: DelboyTrotter on 05/04/2009 08:00:27
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 05/04/2009 07:39:54
Disagree! You are touchable at 150 km. Easily, depending on the fleet. Everything depends on the fleet setup you face.
The goal is not to kill the Falcon. The goal is to scare the Falcon off and remove ECM from the fight.

If you engage a camp of 4 BS and some small ships with one BS and you bring ECM you will die at the point when ECM is scared off.
The chance to lose is anyway higher if these guys had fitted ECCM or just bring a Sniper for the Falcon. Or very simple: counter ECM.
Keep in mind that you can't jam everybody and that you can't have the right jam mods for every situation.
Experienced camps/blobs know how to make it hard for you.

I am mainly bringing the example gate campers. Well, that's the worst way of ganking players and give them zero chance.
For busting a camp a Falcon is perfect. But if the camp is not made of noobs and aware they just prepare. With the new nerf they will not just be able to scare ECM off, they simply get a great chance now to kill ship easily. Just place one Falcon/Rook at the gate and support them by remote repping when under sentry fire. Your ECM will be disabled and if you stay longer that close they will try to tackle you for sure. Dead!

Before the nerf you had 2 battle fields: the main battle and the fight at distance to keep/disable ECM.

So that actual nerf is not re-balancing ECM. It does not just nerf. It will revert overpowered to useless.

That's my personal opinion as a high skilled and experienced Falcon pilot.


By untouchable I meant exactly what you described, at very best you will make the falcon warp away, rather then destroy it and remove it from the fight.

In the situation you describe, any experienced falcon pilot will be prepared with multiple bookmarks to warp to around the engagement at range, so once any tacklers get close, it is free to just warp to another spot and continue jamming.

No other ship that can warp cloaked can effect a fight to the extent a falcon can at such extreme ranges. All other covert recons operate at 20-40 km, and then they will effect only 1-2 targets with their EWAR. A skilled falcon pilot is capable of completely removing 5 ships from a fight.

Even IF CCP properly balance the falcon and reduce it range far more that the current proposed changes, to around 20-40 KM, it will still be more powerful than any other recon, and just like all the other recons, it will remain paper thin and primary, taking skill to fly effectively.









Spartan dax
Posted - 2009.04.05 10:18:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: DelboyTrotter


No other ship that can warp cloaked can effect a fight to the extent a falcon can at such extreme ranges. All other covert recons operate at 20-40 km, and then they will effect only 1-2 targets with their EWAR. A skilled falcon pilot is capable of completely removing 5 ships from a fight.

Even IF CCP properly balance the falcon and reduce it range far more that the current proposed changes, to around 20-40 KM, it will still be more powerful than any other recon, and just like all the other recons, it will remain paper thin and primary, taking skill to fly effectively.



Take your ECM whines somewhere else and keep your comments to the SISI changes. No Falcon on SISI will ever jam 5 targets unless it's in optimal, and in optimal there are even plenty of frigs that can shoot it now.

SISI falcon jamming from 100k.... It's a joke and an utter failure. Which was the intention all along obviously.

DelboyTrotter
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.04.05 10:39:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Spartan dax

Take your ECM whines somewhere else and keep your comments to the SISI changes. No Falcon on SISI will ever jam 5 targets unless it's in optimal, and in optimal there are even plenty of frigs that can shoot it now.


Exactly where was I whining? Current SISI changes, they are not enough, falcons should have a 60k optimal on their jammers after rigs and SDAs

Originally by: Spartan dax
SISI falcon jamming from 100k.... It's a joke and an utter failure. Which was the intention all along obviously.


This sound pretty damn whiney to me. The changes are not a joke, Falcons in their current form on TQ are a joke, take no skill to fly and are the easy button in eve currently.


Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:06:00 - [307]
 

CCP is bringing the falcon in line with the other recons?? This is an outrage!!!!!! Laughing

No seriously, all these falcon pilot/alt tears are by far the best tasting tears ever. I mean EVER!!!

Long over due changes and you all know it.

Great job CCP! Very Happy

Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:22:00 - [308]
 

Edited by: Commandante Caldari on 05/04/2009 11:37:07
Originally by: DelboyTrotter
Originally by: Spartan dax

Take your ECM whines somewhere else and keep your comments to the SISI changes. No Falcon on SISI will ever jam 5 targets unless it's in optimal, and in optimal there are even plenty of frigs that can shoot it now.


Exactly where was I whining? Current SISI changes, they are not enough, falcons should have a 60k optimal on their jammers after rigs and SDAs

Originally by: Spartan dax
SISI falcon jamming from 100k.... It's a joke and an utter failure. Which was the intention all along obviously.


This sound pretty damn whiney to me. The changes are not a joke, Falcons in their current form on TQ are a joke, take no skill to fly and are the easy button in eve currently.




As I mentioned before: there a enough methods and tactics against ECM. Even at 225. The problem is: people ignore that and whining is the easy way, noobs whine anyway because they have no deep knowlegde and have any clue what happened to them. Most of the people don't want to prepare against ECM because it needs some changes in their routine. Overall I lost some Falcons to fleets who know how to deal with it.

Using ECM against single trapped players is anyway brutal. 225 or 60km. It makes no difference. All kind of EWAR rercons would cause a similar “unfair, no chance“ situation.

The behaviour is a bit similar to the Myrm nerf some time ago. Massive whine about a 5x Ogre overpowered BC while most of the people did not shoot drones first. It's so easy, you just need to be aware that a drone ship without drones is simply dead. But it's easier to whine instead of changing the way how to fight and setup an overwiew for that. Finally CCP listened to these guys again and additionally they nerfed drones because they are so overpowered ... when noone wants to shoot them first.

There are many ways where whining rules changes in the game.

I agree that ECM needs a nerf.
Eventually CCP should re-balance the other EWAR. But a Falcon at close range is pretty dead in fleet war.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:22:00 - [309]
 

Falcon -
*Cloak
*Close range ewar
*Drone bay
*2x missile & turret hardpoints
*Damage bonus.
They're going to die immediately in pretty much every fight but I think most are resigned to that fact now. Half the problem with bringing these ships in close is the fact that pretty much everything (bar frigs) will lock it up immediately and negate its cloak. This will neccesitate a large buffer tank but with a drone bay and damage bonuses I guess this is acceptable. No second role though :/

Scorpion -
*2x missile & turret hardpoints
*damage bonus
*close range ewar
*increased drone bay size?.
Again, will be immediate primary but atleast its cheap and now has solo application!

Rook - I quite like other peoples ideas for this remaining the long range ECM option. Problem is its a waste of time leaving it in BS optimals because its basically instapop fodder. Jump > lock Rook > pop. Whats the point? Unless its optimal is going to be around the 200km mark with rigs/SDA's then it may aswell be a close range boat aswell. Thing is I love the idea of a close range Scorp :S GGNNNGHHH!

Hayat Siwa
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:22:00 - [310]
 

if you argue that a ship is too hard to kill why not apply that to covert ops or cloaking modules in general?

the purpose of the nerf is obviously to take the ubar out of the falcon, is it not?

Quote:
In the situation you describe, any experienced falcon pilot will be prepared with multiple bookmarks to warp to around the engagement at range, so once any tacklers get close, it is free to just warp to another spot and continue jamming.
...
A skilled falcon pilot is capable of completely removing 5 ships from a fight.


which falcon pilot has multiple bookmarks along any roaming route? the only one situation where having multiple bookmarks is practical (and half of the falcon pilots i know don't even bother for some reason) is during homedefense in or directly around your station system. in all other situations bookmarks are created on the fly, but then again that's ok for a battleship isn't it?

you second argument of eliminating 5 ships from the fight is actually very unrealistic for a falcon hardly ever has all the proper racials fitted to achieve that. you cannot possible argue with extreme cases, otherwise a single bs will pop any frigate instantly, too, given ideal conditions.

i am flying falcons now for a few months and it happened exactly once (!) that i managed to jam 4 hostiles who were engaging a careless pilot on his way to dock on station. he managed to escape. surely a situation that ****ed off those 4 reds, but on the other hand it made 2 guys rather happy. what's wrong with that?

now i can agree to reduce a falcons efficiency and for the third time i'm asking what's wrong with this:

Quote:
i can understand the arguments to change the ratio of optimal vs fall-off, i can also see the reasoning behind reducing jam strength, and a somewhat (read slightly) toned down max range. changes in these areas would reduce the effectiveness of the falcon by a good amount while still allowing the ship to be employed in it's current role as a long range support ship.


everyone who demands the falcon to be made a close range ship purposefully ignores it's role as a long range support ship. i do wonder why. how about making the rokh, a dedicated sniper bs, a close range ship, too?

making all recons act and behave in similar fashion eliminates any incentive to cross train or spezialise as skill time will be wasted come next patch. a nerf like that only helps satisfy the lazy and uncreative solo player who cannot be bothered to find a solution with his team.

being regularly attacked by hostiles in our home system i can attest to the fact that their use of eccm, long range cerbs or interceptors is doing amazing things to our falcons motivation.

so, again, why does the role of the falcon as a long range support ship need to change?

someone enlighten me. i'm getting impatient.

regards

hs

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:33:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Hayat Siwa
Quote:
I just see it that way: the nerf is just a result of a big whining of lazy, non-creative players ... not willing to sacrifice a slot for ECCM or thinking about different tactics against a Falcon. And CCP is listening to all these endless petitions or forum threads.


this

interestingly there are no falcon pilots here who argue against a nerf. they all agree that the ship could do with some tweaking. there are shockingly few arguments considering the nature of the falcon, though (long range ecm support).

what is the reason to change the role of the falcon?


The combination of Cov Ops Cloak, long Range and huge Jamming power that is terrible OP against small Gangs or against solo Players, not any combat situation happens with 30+ People and sniper Setups. Now people have actualy take a risk of getting shot here when deciding to use a Cov Ops cloaked Recon or simply use the Range of Ships not able to fit a Cov Ops Cloak.

Also why should be the Falcon counter should be this creative(you get nearly imunity if you donīt screw up atm)? You kill Falcons in Bubble camps if you are lucky to deacloak them, you kill Falcons that are not aligned(pure pilote mistake), you kill Falcons that donīt fit a buffer and get killed in one Alpha(again if it takes more the pilote simply screwed up because he didnīt align and warp out). The Falcon is basicly this popular because her pilotes donīt need to think about diffrent tactics and the Cov Ops Claok gives them way to mutch protection and one ECCM donīt give you a solid protection(you need 2-3 on a BS to get this).

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

Quote:
i can understand the arguments to change the ratio of optimal vs fall-off, i can also see the reasoning behind reducing jam strength, and a somewhat (read slightly) toned down max range. changes in these areas would reduce the effectiveness of the falcon by a good amount while still allowing the ship to be employed in it's current role as a long range support ship.


i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's wrong with this.

hs




Again, the combination of Cov Ops Cloak, long Range and huge Jamming power. Rolling Eyes
Now people at least have to decide between range and a Cov Ops Cloak to protect them.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:48:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

Quote:
i can understand the arguments to change the ratio of optimal vs fall-off, i can also see the reasoning behind reducing jam strength, and a somewhat (read slightly) toned down max range. changes in these areas would reduce the effectiveness of the falcon by a good amount while still allowing the ship to be employed in it's current role as a long range support ship.


everyone who demands the falcon to be made a close range ship purposefully ignores it's role as a long range support ship. i do wonder why. how about making the rokh, a dedicated sniper bs, a close range ship, too?

making all recons act and behave in similar fashion eliminates any incentive to cross train or spezialise as skill time will be wasted come next patch. a nerf like that only helps satisfy the lazy and uncreative solo player who cannot be bothered to find a solution with his team.

being regularly attacked by hostiles in our home system i can attest to the fact that their use of eccm, long range cerbs or interceptors is doing amazing things to our falcons motivation.

so, again, why does the role of the falcon as a long range support ship need to change?

someone enlighten me. i'm getting impatient.

regards

hs


Anyone that demands a Cov Ops cloaked long range jamming Ships as a role knowes this concept is compleetly broken and make any other kind of ECM and EW Ship compleetly useless compared to the Falcon.

The Rohk is allready a very powerfull short Range BS. Rolling Eyes

Making all reacons halve way ballanced elimitates the need of cross training for the Falcon.
A nerf like this helps to kill all the lazy and uncreative players(also Falcon alt users) that hide behind cov ops cloaks and huge ranges in small Gang combat that can not be bothered to use a other tactice and demand one tactic to work in any kind of sitiation outside of 1o1 better than any other EW.

Hayat Siwa
Posted - 2009.04.05 12:54:00 - [313]
 

first, thanks for your thought out response.

Quote:
Anyone that demands a Cov Ops cloaked long range jamming Ships as a role knows this concept is compleetly broken and make any other kind of ECM and EW Ship completly useless compared to the Falcon.


tbh, i don't know why the concept of cloaker/jammer/range is so faulty. but it doesn't matter. even if it is, fact is the falcon is meanwhile an established long range/cloaking/jamming ship. people have chosen to skill in this direction and employ stand-off tactics. are these not demanding enough? well, there are still plenty of falcons on killmails.

my point is that this is the current situation. personally i would prefer to take the curretn role as a starting point for a nerf rather than creating a totally new role for it. i see that as a much fairer approach towards players.

the other recons being useless is surely resulting from the above average attributes of the falcon. increase falloff, reduce jam strength, 150k, mission accomplished. hard to kill, so what? all pilots are hard to kill if they know what they are doing and easy to kill if they don't no matter what ship they fly.

Quote:
Now people at least have to decide between range and a Cov Ops Cloak to protect them.


you are talking about the scorpion?

Quote:
A nerf like this helps to kill all the lazy and uncreative players...


correction! it affects 1 race. noteworthy nerfs that i witnessed in my short time in eve were mainly the speed and the missile nerf. but those were covering the whole spectrum of races pretty much.

anyway, to move ahead, i conclude that i understand and agree (!) with the motivations to reduce the falcons effectiveness but i still absolutely disagree (!) with the approach that is pursued, i.e. creating a new role rather than adjusting it.

regards

hs




Zubakis
The Carebear Stare
Hydroponic Zone
Posted - 2009.04.05 13:40:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Zubakis on 05/04/2009 13:40:26
Can you look at the cpu usage on projected eccm's, while you are tweaking ecm ships? 55cpu on t2 eccm projector and 40cpu on best named is too much.

edit: And maybe increase range on those too?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.04.05 14:12:00 - [315]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 05/04/2009 14:16:40
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
The problem is: people ignore that and whining is the easy way, noobs whine anyway because they have no deep knowlegde and have any clue what happened to them. Most of the people don't want to prepare against ECM because it needs some changes in their routine.


very true.

Nerf everything what is not gank or tank and even WORKS(w00000000w!!)
The worst thing is CCP follow the whines and really do it, bye bye diversity.

In my opinion its going really to only gank/tank since I'm playing eve, with tons of useless things around it those nobuddy uses.

So now its ECM, what is going to be tomorrow?

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 14:28:00 - [316]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 05/04/2009 16:12:01
Originally by: Hayat Siwa
first, thanks for your thought out response.

Quote:
Anyone that demands a Cov Ops cloaked long range jamming Ships as a role knows this concept is compleetly broken and make any other kind of ECM and EW Ship completly useless compared to the Falcon.


tbh, i don't know why the concept of cloaker/jammer/range is so faulty. but it doesn't matter. even if it is, fact is the falcon is meanwhile an established long range/cloaking/jamming ship. people have chosen to skill in this direction and employ stand-off tactics. are these not demanding enough? well, there are still plenty of falcons on killmails.


Well simple, a Falcon combines the biggest range(or better a range that gives him imunity ot about 90% of possible Counters) with the most effective EW(ECM, a jammed ship is unable to use Turrets, unable to fire Missles directly and we all know how ineffective unfocused FOFs are, unable to hold Point, Web, ECM, Damps, Target Painters, Neuts, Nos, Remote Rep or cordinate Drones, while also having one of the weakest countermodules with not other purpose than reduce the chance of getting jammed) and also gives the ships the ultimate unconsensual PVP mod, the Covert Ops Claok leaving the ship the choice when to engage and where. Any counter tactic is based on kill it with alpha or the mistake of the Pilote to not align correct before decloaking or decloak in the wrong place.

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

my point is that this is the current situation. personally i would prefer to take the curretn role as a starting point for a nerf rather than creating a totally new role for it. i see that as a much fairer approach towards players.


Well the Falcon is actualy broken because of his role unfortuanaly and there will be no solution that changes the curret situation on TQ if the ship keep itīs role.

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

the other recons being useless is surely resulting from the above average attributes of the falcon. increase falloff, reduce jam strength, 150k, mission accomplished. hard to kill, so what? all pilots are hard to kill if they know what they are doing and easy to kill if they don't no matter what ship they fly.


Itīs more like that Damps and Webs are kind of broken on the related Recons(60% Web on the Rapier\Huggin is a joke, like the Damps are on the Lachesis\Arazu). This ships done fairly well with powerfull EW even at her short range.

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

Quote:
Now people at least have to decide between range and a Cov Ops Cloak to protect them.


you are talking about the scorpion?


Yes(also the BB), in my opinon the Torp/ECM closerange Scorp would have been nicer and the rook should be the long range ECM platform(ECM + huge Range without Cov Ops Cloak is still very powerfull but leaves fare better options to counter/avoid it).

Originally by: Hayat Siwa

Quote:
A nerf like this helps to kill all the lazy and uncreative players...


correction! it affects 1 race. noteworthy nerfs that i witnessed in my short time in eve were mainly the speed and the missile nerf. but those were covering the whole spectrum of races pretty much.

anyway, to move ahead, i conclude that i understand and agree (!) with the motivations to reduce the falcons effectiveness but i still absolutely disagree (!) with the approach that is pursued, i.e. creating a new role rather than adjusting it.

regards

hs



Actualy it affects mostly 1 Ship. The core problem is this simply that this sayed ship steamrolls you in small gang PVP atm, you canīt see it(cov ops cloak), it can compleetly negate 2-3 Ships(all her DPS-unfocused Drones/FOF and EW) while beeing to fare out to be attackalbe by general fittings, even if you can get him you chase him off if he didnīt make a mistake, you donīt kill him and you need more ships for this(If you donīt do the obvious and bring your own Falcon with you).

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2009.04.05 14:41:00 - [317]
 

i don't know how many times this has to be repeated but ECM ships will be useless piece of junk in gangs if they can't jam effectively from 150km and above. In practice it has to be more like 200km. Because you can't be positioned exactly at 150km... ships are moving...

Comparing ecm ship range with other recons is pointless because other recons have other abilities to support their role at more closer range. Giving drones for falcon is pretty useless also...

Now the other thing, the close range ecm stuff. ECM ships will be blown into bits if they ever get aggroed by drones, except bs class which can take drone aggro for a short bit...

Shortening ecm range and increasing weapon range is really bad idea for rook and falcon.

Falcon doesn't need any weapons it's pure ecm boat, it can't kill anything, it can't tackle or damage anything even if you would give it a little weapon bonus. Not to mention non-existant speed or tank. Falcon can only last for like one volley from other gang...

Rook doesn't need range bonus it needs capacitor, agility, speed, dps and tank to be better at it's close range role and it really doesn't need range bonus, which would be only useful IF it could fit ham's, but it doesn't have even nearly enough power grid for that.

I personally like the idea of scorpion and widow being effective on close range and stuff. BUT they can't do effective damage anymore since torpedo nerf (yeah you can fit target painter but hey what slots you use for tackling then, if you can't tackle you can as well take other ship), scorpion only has so many missile hardpoints (and it's hard to imagine how it could have more without ruining whole fitting layout) and widow is expensive as hell...

Also since SDA's are going to get nerf bat it already drops ecm strenght pretty dangerously for anyone who would like to go to close range with ecm boat... fail one cycle and you're dead. Too much luck factor there...


in other words boost tempest and large ac's...

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 15:07:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 05/04/2009 15:14:45
Edited by: The Djego on 05/04/2009 15:13:33
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
Rook doesn't need range bonus it needs capacitor, agility, speed, dps and tank to be better at it's close range role and it really doesn't need range bonus, which would be only useful IF it could fit ham's, but it doesn't have even nearly enough power grid for that.




Now how many people actualy fly rooks today? Nobody ever will if you can have cov ops cloak and range on the Falcon because it is plain better in any possible way(beeing out of range, engage/disengage at will with the same jamming power or even more since you donīt need to fit a buffer). Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn

Also since SDA's are going to get nerf bat it already drops ecm strenght pretty dangerously for anyone who would like to go to close range with ecm boat... fail one cycle and you're dead. Too much luck factor there...


30% Jamming strengh per Level, it got actual boosted(comparing to TQ with SDA fitted), while freeing the low Slots for other stuff if you donīt want the range that SDA give you(like a Plate or some Overdrives, Damagemods, DCU etc.) while having the same jamming power.

McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.05 16:29:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: DelboyTrotter

By untouchable I meant exactly what you described, at very best you will make the falcon warp away, rather then destroy it and remove it from the fight.

In the situation you describe, any experienced falcon pilot will be prepared with multiple bookmarks to warp to around the engagement at range, so once any tacklers get close, it is free to just warp to another spot and continue jamming.

No other ship that can warp cloaked can effect a fight to the extent a falcon can at such extreme ranges. All other covert recons operate at 20-40 km, and then they will effect only 1-2 targets with their EWAR. A skilled falcon pilot is capable of completely removing 5 ships from a fight.

Even IF CCP properly balance the falcon and reduce it range far more that the current proposed changes, to around 20-40 KM, it will still be more powerful than any other recon, and just like all the other recons, it will remain paper thin and primary, taking skill to fly effectively.



But falcons can't kill. You may ninja on a KM, you are a very effective support - granted - but you don't kill. You survive and help other survive. It's like complaining about a scimitar remote repping a drake which you thought you'd own in your gank mega.

So yeah, for some people it's boring. Others dedicate their skill plans to it and live in it for very extended periods of times. Basically, I kinda hate salvage thieves, but it's a legitimate trade and I came to terms with its existence because game mechanically speaking it's as legitimate as podding is. Obviously you suffer when it happens, especially with a snake set in (when you get podded - not ninja salvaged duh!), but **** happens.

Same's with the falcons. You might not like it that you have to burn to it, or take a sniper that can kill it, or another falcon to jam it back and put it out of the fight as well (and how many falcon tears pilots have shed when they got jammed by their peers). But, hey, this is the game and it makes it so much more fun. I love burning to falcons in my intys. I praise the 200kms I need to do that, because it allows me to switch to fof missiles, and requires skill to bump the sucker till it's dead. Others can warp to me and help kill it too. When a falcon pilot sees me burning to him he has 2 choices - grow balls and jam me, or grow brains, cloak and warp out, which is good for the team anyways.

So yeah, usually when I'm burning to it I make it warp away at the very least. But if it doesn't, I've never died to a falcon because it has absolutely no offensive capability to speak of. If he smartbombs, he can't cloak and gets locked, as well as becomes cap unstable so double trouble. Intys can survive quite a lot vs any heavy missiles it might shoot. Best thing to come in mind vs intys would probably be assualt launchers with precision light missiles. But then again, the inty can burn out of their range if it is too threatened, and no falcon pilot will bother with a scrambler on his ship because - yeah, jammers are so much more handy.

The only new terror would be the light drones bay, 5 warrior IIs or just ECM-300s as yet another GTFO ticket for it will truely make it untouchable at those ranges. But then, that's why it didn't got a drone bay to begin with.
But even if they do, you still can't speak of solo something other than other falcons, as you don't jam the tank on the other ship. Falcons are not curses.

When you nerf the falcons' range, you nerf interceptor roles as well. You boost long range snipers.

It isn't cheap either - albeit for faction webs on rapiers - it's possibly the most expensive recon in the game. And falcons, believe it or not, do die. Look in the killboards - they die. They get owned. PWNed. Yes, called primary every time. If an FC sees a falcon on grid and he has no way to counter it, he will do the smart thing and fold or die. I love what falcons bring to the game. Don't touch them ccp.

McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.05 17:14:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 05/04/2009 14:16:40
Originally by: Commandante Caldari
The problem is: people ignore that and whining is the easy way, noobs whine anyway because they have no deep knowlegde and have any clue what happened to them. Most of the people don't want to prepare against ECM because it needs some changes in their routine.


very true.

Nerf everything what is not gank or tank and even WORKS(w00000000w!!)
The worst thing is CCP follow the whines and really do it, bye bye diversity.

In my opinion its going really to only gank/tank since I'm playing eve, with tons of useless things around it those nobuddy uses.

So now its ECM, what is going to be tomorrow?


Sniping, obviously. And again, it's going to be caldari who gets the brunt, with eagles (already a relatively rotten ship compared to other hacs) and the sniping cerb.

BTW, someone commented earlier something about missiles speed for extending ranges is not a good enough boost for the rook, since it can shoot further than it can jam. Well, amigo, I have news for you.... you aced eft but failed math, and more importantly, failed at playing the game.

Missiles velocity is more than just S... there's v*t there too. v means the missiles connect with fast ships, and if S is shorter it means t is shortened due to the increase in v. Means you put the hurt more quickly than before.

I don't mind the rook being the brawler. Hell, it does need love as it is useless except for lol fits compared to the current falcon. So an increase in its dps and a drone bay to the rook, plus some grid/cpu boost and maybe even some speed would work wonders on the poor recon. I'm totally in favor of what Ephemeron suggested regarding the SDAs, and I would totally go for a solution that scripts them or make two seperate modules.

I would also think about allowing to script eccm modules to either up the strength points or the chance of successfully surviving a jam (so if you expect a falcon in close range, you'd fit the chance script, while going for the points script when he's 200km away, in falloff).

I also wanted to note that in a camp you can expect a falcon at 200km or more, with multi safe spots. But in all other scenarios expect them to appear in a much closer range, and have maybe one safe near the gate.

Dunkin McLoud
Posted - 2009.04.05 17:41:00 - [321]
 

The main problem i see with the nerf it seems to just be a huge chop of the falcon surviability people say to add tanks to the falcon, but look its a caldari cruiser.
your saying were suppose to passive or active tank this ship while still maintaining its ECM at an efficent capacity compared to the scorpion.

If you take everything into account such as the chance to jam, the fewer number of ecm modules (if the ship is to tank), the high priority target, and the limited range. AS well take into account that these ranges are with all the skills maxed out. This basically makes the a falcon a dangerous target but a target that has little change in a battle except to draw enemy gangs alpha strikes. while maybe jamming 1 or 2 ships for a short amount of time untill it is blown up. Making it an expensive but ineffective ship in small gangs.


DelboyTrotter
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.04.05 18:18:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Dunkin McLoud
The main problem i see with the nerf it seems to just be a huge chop of the falcon surviability people say to add tanks to the falcon, but look its a caldari cruiser.
your saying were suppose to passive or active tank this ship while still maintaining its ECM at an efficent capacity compared to the scorpion.

If you take everything into account such as the chance to jam, the fewer number of ecm modules (if the ship is to tank), the high priority target, and the limited range. AS well take into account that these ranges are with all the skills maxed out. This basically makes the a falcon a dangerous target but a target that has little change in a battle except to draw enemy gangs alpha strikes. while maybe jamming 1 or 2 ships for a short amount of time untill it is blown up. Making it an expensive but ineffective ship in small gangs.



And will make it exactly like every other cov-ops recon out there. You will actually have to think about the tactical situation before you decloak and start jamming, and if you screw up there will be a high chance your expensive T2 recon will get popped.

No different from flying a rapier, arazu or pilgrim.




The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.05 18:29:00 - [323]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 05/04/2009 18:32:54
Originally by: McEivalley

I don't mind the rook being the brawler. Hell, it does need love as it is useless except for lol fits compared to the current falcon. So an increase in its dps and a drone bay to the rook, plus some grid/cpu boost and maybe even some speed would work wonders on the poor recon. I'm totally in favor of what Ephemeron suggested regarding the SDAs, and I would totally go for a solution that scripts them or make two seperate modules.



Nobody that flys Falcons would mind the rook beeing the brawler because it would be still useless and donīt fix the problem with the Falcon.

The short range Rook compared to a Falcon with more Range and cov ops cloak is absolutly uselsess, it leaves pilote the decision between one Ship with 2 drawbacks(close range, no cloak) and one ship with 2 advantages(long range, cloak) for Caldari recons, this is the reason why the Falcons are extrem popular and rooks are extremly uncommon(rook and falcon got the same ECM range and power atm, so the only diffrence is one can fit a Cov Ops Cloak and one canīt).

The only way a rook could be usefull is a rook that has the range bonus and the Falcon is reduced to close range but got the cov ops cloak. Simply look at Pilgram/Curse if the Pilgrim would have the range Bonus and the Cov Ops Cloak there would be zero reason to ever use a Curse because range+cov ops cloak are plain better. Rolling Eyes

Blastil
Posted - 2009.04.05 18:29:00 - [324]
 

This nerf has been a long time In coming, and I think CCP has done exactly what was needed.

Last night I jumped a Myrm into a three man camp. I popped a sabre, and was working on the zealot when a falcon decloaked at 250 KM and ended the fight. I warped away without even breaking my tank, but the problem is in the fact that the falcon quite simply is untouchable in small or solo combat. regardless of the chance system, the falcon remains the king of not just fleet-to-fleet warfare, but for ganks and small gang PVP, enabling two to three men to end a fight with absolutely no risk. The falcons don't have to commit, and the only people in danger are the tacklers, who are being backed by a falcon. TBFH, the falcon is a 100% risk negation tool. And the only counter for a falcon is another falcon, or enough targets to cram down its throat so it physically can't jam them all. And if any of these happen, the falcon merely warps off and lives on to fight another day.

To falcon pilots- Your ships role is not LONG RANGE ECM support, its ECM support. No other type of Ewar gains the ability to activate at practically off grid distances, and neutralize an opponent in all ways, with no form of retaliation. No drones, no FOF's. the counters placed into the game to remove your strengths through planning or skill are gone due to range.

Every ship should have its weaknesses, and the truth is, the falcon has none, save for the issue that it can be killed in a gate camp- just like every other ship.

CHAOS100
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.04.05 18:54:00 - [325]
 

This is not a good nerf. 50k optimal is a super-nerf. You forgot why ECM ships are so far in the first place, because they have limited or no defence.

Make them be able to jam well at 100-120km, in line with the sensor dampener range.

The rook having the same bonus? Means it is useless as ever to use it over the falcon. Give it at least maybe a bit better range bonus since it can't cloak, or at least a strength bonus. Think like how the curse has a range bonus for neuts when compared to the pilgrim. (NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN NERF THE CURSE).


Black ops --> giving it a fuel bay is the first step, why not go all the way and give it a covert cloak like the stealth bomber? At least then it would have the ability to choose its fights.

Mycenaean
Posted - 2009.04.05 19:00:00 - [326]
 

Falcon is way overpowered atm..

Take away its range so it equals the Pilgrim/Rapier, and nerf the ECM strenght..

Problem fixed, and perhaps 1 or 2 players might start solo pvp'ing again..

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.04.05 19:43:00 - [327]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 05/04/2009 19:43:12
Originally by: Mycenaean
Take away its range so it equals the Pilgrim/Rapier, and nerf the ECM strenght..


if you like the pilgrim, take a pilgrim, no need for making the falcon equal to other ships, it IS a different ship.
You know why there are 4 races in the game??

The falcon was fine as it was.

Mycenaean
Posted - 2009.04.05 19:50:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 05/04/2009 19:43:12
Originally by: Mycenaean
Take away its range so it equals the Pilgrim/Rapier, and nerf the ECM strenght..


if you like the pilgrim, take a pilgrim, no need for making the falcon equal to other ships, it IS a different ship.
You know why there are 4 races in the game??

The falcon was fine as it was.


Obvious falcon pilot spotted!

Falcon needs to be equally balanced to the other Recon ships, as stated in my original post..

Vi Emacs
Posted - 2009.04.05 20:14:00 - [329]
 

Is a heavy assault missile bonus still on the cards for the rook ?
I liked that if the rook was going to be based around close range.

Prince Spiderman
Posted - 2009.04.05 21:27:00 - [330]
 

Edited by: Prince Spiderman on 05/04/2009 21:32:30
This nerf is just ruining Falcons.
Welcome on the killmail.
Campers will love it.


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