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Arele
Minmatar
Samurai Salvaging
Posted - 2009.04.28 17:21:00 - [1471]
 

Loving the bomber changes, actually makes them worth using now. People whining have no idea how to use these ships, they are a gang burst damage ship, not a solo pwnmobile.

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.28 17:54:00 - [1472]
 

Edited by: Charlie chop on 28/04/2009 17:56:54
Edited by: Charlie chop on 28/04/2009 17:56:10
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I don't know if any devs are still reading this thread, but:

- SB do too much damage, 10% racial was fine 15% is overkill
- I'd still rather have improved cloak with velocity bonus, because its useful in a fight. Covert Ops makes them great in WH space but doesn't add much besides travel security anywhere else.
- Grid issues are nonexistent but CPU is horrible with T2 siege
- Rage are overpowered

Among other issues..

two things

1.- worst post ever
2,. we can see youre prolly one of those "unlucky" players taht got owned by a SB while AFK/ratting.

i just wonder when did you figured taht posting in this thread is going to change the fact that you were too slow to do something IN game about it.

edit: trying not to flame :D

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.28 18:03:00 - [1473]
 

getting back on topic.

IMHO, seriusly, all the SB needs is a bonus to the explosion velocity, at least enough to reach the same level the cruise missiles had before this patch.

my reasons:

before this patch, frigates, destros and some crusiers were perfectly able to withstand the impacts even with the cruise bonus of a good sb pilot. giving the sb a good change of effectively delivering most of its damage, would allow most of the players to engage or at least have a decent fighting chance vs frigs. just think about it, any other frig in game has a fighting chance vs any other frig. the SB doesnt. thats why we need a better exp. velocity.


Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.28 22:33:00 - [1474]
 

Originally by: Arele
Loving the bomber changes, actually makes them worth using now. People whining have no idea how to use these ships, they are a gang burst damage ship, not a solo pwnmobile.



Rolling Eyes

please stop trolling....
Neutral

To get back on topic, I don't think we need anything that'll improve our damage to frigates.

personally think it's fine, we shouldn't really be complaining about that.

I mean, frigate should be a stealth Bombers fear.

It's the damage to Battleships that should be the concern, increasing explosive velocity by a tiny bit, and lower the explosion radius should be considered, but its the problem that these improvements will make it effective against it's counter.

It'll be like giving the "paper" a sheet of metal to blunt the "scissor", it should be only effective against the "Rock".

But as i have always been saying, my suggestion is to lower the signature of Stealth Bomber, for haruhi sake's, it should have the same sig size of a interceptor.

it uses the same bloody sig reducing "alloy", its STEALTH!

But hey, i'll say it as many times as i can, for as long as this thread will let me.

either, lower the bloody signature into the interceptor/frigate range or just buff the damn thing into a destroyer hull.

Don't leave the bloody manticore in the middle.
Rolling Eyes




Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.28 23:45:00 - [1475]
 

Edited by: Charlie chop on 28/04/2009 23:49:25
Originally by: Onizuka GTO
Originally by: Arele
Loving the bomber changes, actually makes them worth using now. People whining have no idea how to use these ships, they are a gang burst damage ship, not a solo pwnmobile.



Rolling Eyes

please stop trolling....
Neutral

To get back on topic, I don't think we need anything that'll improve our damage to frigates.

personally think it's fine, we shouldn't really be complaining about that.

I mean, frigate should be a stealth Bombers fear.

It's the damage to Battleships that should be the concern, increasing explosive velocity by a tiny bit, and lower the explosion radius should be considered, but its the problem that these improvements will make it effective against it's counter.

It'll be like giving the "paper" a sheet of metal to blunt the "scissor", it should be only effective against the "Rock".

But as i have always been saying, my suggestion is to lower the signature of Stealth Bomber, for haruhi sake's, it should have the same sig size of a interceptor.

it uses the same bloody sig reducing "alloy", its STEALTH!

But hey, i'll say it as many times as i can, for as long as this thread will let me.

either, lower the bloody signature into the interceptor/frigate range or just buff the damn thing into a destroyer hull.

Don't leave the bloody manticore in the middle.
Rolling Eyes






just one thing, i think that giving the stealth bomber that extra 10% explotion velocity will greatly improve its fighting chance since a AB BS will not be able to tank it. leaving enough chance to the frgis since the sig radius on the torps is unchanged.

most problims will be solved by changind it to this:

10% more flight time per level
20% to torpedo velocity and exlpotion velocity per level

so subtle and so eficient....i hope so

Goberth Ludwig
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.29 00:02:00 - [1476]
 

Gesus... ever heard of WEBS?

- Gob

Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.29 00:29:00 - [1477]
 

Originally by: Charlie chop


just one thing, i think that giving the stealth bomber that extra 10% explotion velocity will greatly improve its fighting chance since a AB BS will not be able to tank it. leaving enough chance to the frgis since the sig radius on the torps is unchanged.

most problims will be solved by changind it to this:

10% more flight time per level
20% to torpedo velocity and exlpotion velocity per level

so subtle and so eficient....i hope so


Well that depends how fast a After-burning Battleship can do, there is nothing we can change to the velocity bonus if the Battleship mwd away.

The safe bet is just make the S.B. more survivable, but if someone can bring out the math and show me that a 20% velocity bonus is reasonable, then I'm willing to change my opinion on it.

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.29 00:58:00 - [1478]
 

Edited by: Charlie chop on 29/04/2009 01:05:15
Originally by: Onizuka GTO
Originally by: Charlie chop


just one thing, i think that giving the stealth bomber that extra 10% explotion velocity will greatly improve its fighting chance since a AB BS will not be able to tank it. leaving enough chance to the frgis since the sig radius on the torps is unchanged.

most problims will be solved by changind it to this:

10% more flight time per level
20% to torpedo velocity and exlpotion velocity per level

so subtle and so eficient....i hope so


Well that depends how fast a After-burning Battleship can do, there is nothing we can change to the velocity bonus if the Battleship mwd away.

The safe bet is just make the S.B. more survivable, but if someone can bring out the math and show me that a 20% velocity bonus is reasonable, then I'm willing to change my opinion on it.


well a MWD would be like a 2 edge sword, taht inmense signature readius will help us. but you made a nice question.. we need sumone that knows how to run those numbers... cuz i really have ni idea

would it be something like this?

explosion velocity: 71 m/s

target navigation prediction: Proficiency at optimizing a missile's flight path to negate the effects of a target's speed upon the explosion's impact. 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles.


71*1.50 = 106.5

the bonus i mean: 20% explotion velocity per level

106.5* 2.00= 203 m/s

i just have no idea if the bonus is applied to the bonus given by the TNP skill or to the base speed of the torp and then both are added.....

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.29 03:44:00 - [1479]
 

Okay, just taking a spare moment here to catch up... and wow.

I had to sit here for a couple of minutes to regain a bit of composure after reading the last few posts.

Don't take this the wrong way gentlemen, I have no doubt many of you are expressing sincere concerns based on your current level of experience, but you should probably get to know who the more capable and respected combat pilots are in game before you start making aspersions as to their ability. And no, I'm not talking about myself.

Time to be blunt. Both Gob and digitalcommunist each easily have more hard combat experience in this game than most of the rest of the posters in this thread combined.

Gob tried to educate you on tactics that work, DC gave his (well respected) opinion that in some ways the current SB is over powered (which is arguable, I'm pretty pleased with it right now but I can understand that point of view), ... and your reply is "lol, noob must have got ganked by a SB once".

Way to dispel any illusions of being well informed you may have previously had in one fell swoop.

As for myself I did my best to provide you with accurate battle reports shortly after the actual battles took place that illustrate the undeniable worth of the ship. Hopefully that information will be of use to some of you, and to CCP Chronotis as his assessment of the SB in its new form continues.

I did enjoy the lively debate with those that were sincere and speaking from personal experience rather than speculation. Many thanks for your input.

But at this particular moment, I'm a bit disgusted with this thread. Since I can feel my attitude starting to skew my posts in the direction of petty bickering and other ass-hattery, I think I'll just exit this discussion instead.

Good hunting gentlemen.

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.29 04:40:00 - [1480]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Okay, just taking a spare moment here to catch up... and wow.

I had to sit here for a couple of minutes to regain a bit of composure after reading the last few posts.

Don't take this the wrong way gentlemen, I have no doubt many of you are expressing sincere concerns based on your current level of experience, but you should probably get to know who the more capable and respected combat pilots are in game before you start making aspersions as to their ability. And no, I'm not talking about myself.

Time to be blunt. Both Gob and digitalcommunist each easily have more hard combat experience in this game than most of the rest of the posters in this thread combined.

Gob tried to educate you on tactics that work, DC gave his (well respected) opinion that in some ways the current SB is over powered (which is arguable, I'm pretty pleased with it right now but I can understand that point of view), ... and your reply is "lol, noob must have got ganked by a SB once".

Way to dispel any illusions of being well informed you may have previously had in one fell swoop.

As for myself I did my best to provide you with accurate battle reports shortly after the actual battles took place that illustrate the undeniable worth of the ship. Hopefully that information will be of use to some of you, and to CCP Chronotis as his assessment of the SB in its new form continues.

I did enjoy the lively debate with those that were sincere and speaking from personal experience rather than speculation. Many thanks for your input.

But at this particular moment, I'm a bit disgusted with this thread. Since I can feel my attitude starting to skew my posts in the direction of petty bickering and other ass-hattery, I think I'll just exit this discussion instead.

Good hunting gentlemen.



srry... this hit me hard :D (irony anyone??)

Mirana Niranne
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.29 06:50:00 - [1481]
 

Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Gesus... ever heard of WEBS?

- Gob



I've heard of them. Getting close enough to use a web on anything with a SB isn't going to do anything for you but get you killed in a hurry. In fact, you'll likely be dead before your first torp hits.

place1
Amarr
Orion Ore Industries
Posted - 2009.04.29 07:12:00 - [1482]
 

Originally by: Mirana Niranne
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Gesus... ever heard of WEBS?

- Gob



I've heard of them. Getting close enough to use a web on anything with a SB isn't going to do anything for you but get you killed in a hurry. In fact, you'll likely be dead before your first torp hits.


I am fairly sure he didn't mean use your SB to apply the web seeing how SB are not a ship that can tackle. SB are DPS ship's with some Ewar would be the best way to describe them.

InfamousOne
Posted - 2009.04.29 12:37:00 - [1483]
 

I have been playing around with the SB's for a bit on TQ and so far I am liking the changes, I am still getting used to the tactics involved in deploying them effectively.

Some things I have noticed is that if we uncloak, fire and then re-cloak, the torps we launched and survived to re-cloak don't do any damage, I guess since we are no longer targeting them (from one of the earlier post) It would be nice if we could target cloaked.

I also noticed that our speed stays the same whether we are cloaked or not, which is good in that we don't get a speed penalty, but I would enjoy a little more speed to get in position for my next run.

Limiting the bomber to torps only kind of sucks, but I do get decent range out of the torps so it isn't a big issue for me.

The cloaking delay of 15 seconds is a bit touch and go, I haven't had time to test it out on TQ, but I think the sig radius on the bomber should be reduced to interceptor level, it is a T2 frigate after all.

Another thing about the sig radius of the ship, from personal experiance with a T2 1MN MWD, I was going 1.6 km/s and A raven was still able to hit me with T1 cruise missiles for 250-300 dmg a missile and thats just wrong.

Just my 2 cents :-) Other then those areas, I like the bombers still :-)

Sekhmet Nalurr
Posted - 2009.04.29 15:05:00 - [1484]
 

Edited by: Sekhmet Nalurr on 29/04/2009 15:05:52
Quote:
The concept of stealth is not new: being able to operate without giving the enemy knowledge has always been a goal of military technology and techniques.

A mission system employing stealth may well become detected at some point within a given mission, such as when the target is destroyed, but correct use of stealth systems should seek to minimize the possibility of detection. Attacking with surprise gives the attacker more time to perform its mission and exit before the defending force can counter-attack. Wink
- wiki

Stealth in Eve is a tad different me thinks

Quote:
such as when the target is destroyed
- in a single SB?

Quote:
Attacking with surprise gives the attacker more time to perform its mission and exit before the defending force can counter-attack.
- lol you be lucky if your not locked within 20 seconds of de-cloaking

kinda off topic but fun Laughing

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.04.29 15:40:00 - [1485]
 

Proof is in the pudding, I finally got to take my Manticore out on a hunting trip last night with the boys from TEARS. It was a small worm-hole diving gang, just four or five of us, with an electronic attack frigate, a HIC, a covops, and a couple of HACs. SB worked well as supplemental DPS and auxiliary scout. We were light on DPS even so, for the heavy tanked sleeper-hunting battleships that we caught; but I was personally satisfied that the SB has a useful role in its current form. It was fun to fly and contributed magnificently to the evening's entertainments.

There's plenty of room to argue about the changes, but anybody who says it's currently sub-par or useless either (1) hasn't tried it; (2) tried to use it for the wrong things; or (3) is trolling.

My personal prediction is that it's a tiny bit overpowered now and will suffer small nerfs in the mid-range to long-term future.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.29 17:26:00 - [1486]
 

Hi Folks,

A small update on some changes we are looking at making.

Bomb Velocity and flight time

These have been tweaked a little further with shorter flight times and increased velocities. Chiefly this is to allow for a little more potential success with bomb use. The effective range remains at 30k.

Bomber signature radius

These have been reduced a little and the intent being they will be slightly less vulnerable to damage. The intention is more along the lines of avoiding battleship weapons if your moving but still vulnerable to support ships.

Feedback is welcome on these two changes and continuing feedback on the stealth bomber itself.

MyOwnSling
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.04.29 18:21:00 - [1487]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hi Folks,

A small update on some changes we are looking at making.

Bomb Velocity and flight time

These have been tweaked a little further with shorter flight times and increased velocities. Chiefly this is to allow for a little more potential success with bomb use. The effective range remains at 30k.

Bomber signature radius

These have been reduced a little and the intent being they will be slightly less vulnerable to damage. The intention is more along the lines of avoiding battleship weapons if your moving but still vulnerable to support ships.

Feedback is welcome on these two changes and continuing feedback on the stealth bomber itself.

The noises these changes make are pleasant to my ears. I just wonder how little the sig reduction is because that could be the key to increased survivability.

Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.29 20:58:00 - [1488]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hi Folks,

A small update on some changes we are looking at making.

Bomb Velocity and flight time

These have been tweaked a little further with shorter flight times and increased velocities. Chiefly this is to allow for a little more potential success with bomb use. The effective range remains at 30k.

Bomber signature radius

These have been reduced a little and the intent being they will be slightly less vulnerable to damage. The intention is more along the lines of avoiding battleship weapons if your moving but still vulnerable to support ships.

Feedback is welcome on these two changes and continuing feedback on the stealth bomber itself.



Bomb stuff....meh... not interested.

But Bomber signature reduction?!!

YES!!!!


*prays to haruhi that the manticore signature is brought down to a more frigate-like size*

that sounds far more better! not only will it survive better against against unsupported battleships (serve them right!) better chance of coming back for another go.

since i've discovered that 70km range is just outside drone range, it has been easier to get into a fight, just getting out has been the problem Rolling Eyes

Can't wait to see the signature reduction changes, please knock off 10m off the manticore....please knock off 10m off the manticore...pleas....

*sacrifice another alien to haruhi*

Twisted Evil


Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.04.29 22:46:00 - [1489]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
A small update on some changes we are looking at making.

Bomb Velocity and flight time
Bomber signature radius

Sounds great. How much sig reduction? Any chance of putting into play that 'active stealth' module that's in the database? Would make a nice 'SB only' mid-slot item...

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.29 23:01:00 - [1490]
 

Edited by: Valadeya uthanaras on 29/04/2009 23:05:58
First of all , Really awesome job CCP chronotis , the new Bomber is spot on on what it was intented , not overpowered even a bit.

Only thing i believe would need to be tweaked is the heavy drone vulnerability , they torn you to shred so fast its kind of scary , but It was probably intended

On people complaining about the firepower , probably because they got killed by a gang of 2 bombers or something realize this:

A - You probably panicked at first , giving the bomber a time advantage of 10 seconds which mean 1-2 more volleys
B - You probably launched your drone or sent your drone with wrong timing , getting them killed by bombs
C - The bombers most likely used torpedoes and bombs of the damage type you are the least tanked to
D - Didnt have any kind of support with you, a T1 frigate being enought to easily protect you from a bombers attack

The bombers pilot pulling this off were also:

A - Visible on local for a long while considering the poor agility
B - Took time for positioning to proper bombing spot

CCP Chronotris , Thank you very much for keeping your end on the people asking to keep cruise , torp are way more appropriate

CCP Chronotris , Thank you very much for making the bomber into a usefull , but expensive , and amazingly fun ship

Edit: http://puppetmasters.rowejob.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12756 not sure its legal but for those wondering if they work properly in combat so far:

Solo: 1 Raven, 1 Ferox, 1 Viator
Gang: 1 Raven Navy issue, 1 Raven , 1 Drake , 1 Ferox

Type of bomb used: Electrons
Average EM resist encountered , 25%
Average volley damage of miljonir torpedoes on Purifier: 2500
Average Electron Bomb damage 5000

Level of Fun . Really HIGH !!!!

OilSlick Rick
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2009.04.30 02:43:00 - [1491]
 

Edited by: OilSlick Rick on 30/04/2009 02:48:39
Originally by: Marlenus
Proof is in the pudding, I finally got to take my Manticore out on a hunting trip last night with the boys from TEARS. It was a small worm-hole diving gang, just four or five of us, with an electronic attack frigate, a HIC, a covops, and a couple of HACs. SB worked well as supplemental DPS and auxiliary scout. We were light on DPS even so, for the heavy tanked sleeper-hunting battleships that we caught; but I was personally satisfied that the SB has a useful role in its current form. It was fun to fly and contributed magnificently to the evening's entertainments.

There's plenty of room to argue about the changes, but anybody who says it's currently sub-par or useless either (1) hasn't tried it; (2) tried to use it for the wrong things; or (3) is trolling.

My personal prediction is that it's a tiny bit overpowered now and will suffer small nerfs in the mid-range to long-term future.



so you found people in wh ratting and attacked them?

Stahanov Iv
Posted - 2009.04.30 11:32:00 - [1492]
 

Edited by: Stahanov Iv on 30/04/2009 11:32:39
action: CCP change role of SB

current role status : Weapon of terror. Primary target all Industrial ships(solo) secondary targets BS (required SB blob).
Due to no delay on decloacking and high scan res can tackle and kill industrial ships on
undock, jumpbriges, gate etc . Useless against frig and cruise ship classes.

terror usage: 10/10
recon usage: 8/10
combat usage: 2/10

verdict: CCP guilty in propaganda of terrorism Very Happy
solution: add combat variation of SB with cruise missile and proper bonuses.

Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.30 13:31:00 - [1493]
 

Originally by: Stahanov Iv
Edited by: Stahanov Iv on 30/04/2009 11:32:39
action: CCP change role of SB

current role status : Weapon of terror. Primary target all Industrial ships(solo) secondary targets BS (required SB blob).
Due to no delay on decloacking and high scan res can tackle and kill industrial ships on
undock, jumpbriges, gate etc . Useless against frig and cruise ship classes.

terror usage: 10/10
recon usage: 8/10
combat usage: 2/10

verdict: CCP guilty in propaganda of terrorism Very Happy
solution: add combat variation of SB with cruise missile and proper bonuses.



So are you saying that the Stealth bomber is perfect for pirates?

Instantpopping carebears with it alone?

hmm.... have to try that.....Rolling Eyes

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.04.30 14:07:00 - [1494]
 

Originally by: OilSlick Rick
so you found people in wh ratting and attacked them?
Well, we found people in wormholes and attacked them. What they thought they were doing there is not necessarily clear.

Stahanov Iv
Posted - 2009.04.30 14:15:00 - [1495]
 

Well one time more why Torpedo bomber is not combat class

No FoF version for deal with ECM ships
Explosion radius rigs and implants not work with torpedos

ahh .. and

Bomb not effective against 80% targets

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:04:00 - [1496]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 30/04/2009 18:07:09
Well we are still treading water with our sticky. Everyone say good bye to the ECM sticky and Black Ops sticky 0/ as they head off into the EVE forum abyss never to be seen again.

I would like to thank allthose who have taken this thread to 50 pages, 1500 postings, almost 65000 viewings. Good or Bad with out your support we to would be unsticky and heading to the abyss.

Any word on when this latest change will hit SISI.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:13:00 - [1497]
 

Originally by: Shun Makoto
I don't know what you're thinking Chronotis.

What is the Stealth Bomber's Real life counter-part? The Submarine.

What do the Subs of today do?

They breach the surface, launch ICBMs and then dive and run silent.

Uncloak | Launch Cruise Missiles | Recloak and move to another spot

THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL STEALTH BOMBER.

Stealth Bomber's already got Nerfed. DON'T NERF THEM MORE


/burns SB Changes


We need two kinds of Bombers, You can have your OHio class, I want an attack boat that goes after an enemies jugular, it's haulers....

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:36:00 - [1498]
 

Quote:
I don't know what you're thinking Chronotis.

What is the Stealth Bomber's Real life counter-part? The Submarine.

What do the Subs of today do?

They breach the surface, launch ICBMs and then dive and run silent.

Uncloak | Launch Cruise Missiles | Recloak and move to another spot

THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL STEALTH BOMBER.

Stealth Bomber's already got Nerfed. DON'T NERF THEM MORE


/burns SB Changes


I agree. It would be horrible if CCP showed some actual ingenuity rather than just creating "Modern naval warfare in space"

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:51:00 - [1499]
 

Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 30/04/2009 19:03:16
IMHO, torps hitting at 40 WITH mediocre missile skills is rather sweet, and will be sweeter yet come better skills. Cool

Still, I have an idea: what if SBs could fit BOTH siege and cruise launchers? No bonus to cruise missiles, of course, but it would add a bit more versatility to it.

But never mind me and my rambling, SBs are great. Razz

Quote:
I don't know what you're thinking Chronotis.

What is the Stealth Bomber's Real life counter-part? The Submarine.

What do the Subs of today do?

They breach the surface, launch ICBMs and then dive and run silent.

Uncloak | Launch Cruise Missiles | Recloak and move to another spot

THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL STEALTH BOMBER.

Stealth Bomber's already got Nerfed. DON'T NERF THEM MORE


Aren't modern subs more like "massive mobile nuke piles"? Then you'd have to give stealth bombers a DD Razz SBs are more focused on the "bomber" part, that is, small craft delivering a relatively large payload. The stealth bomber fits that part better after the change that it did before.

OilSlick Rick
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2009.04.30 22:01:00 - [1500]
 

I am a bit disappointed in the number of implants available for torps compared to light/heavy/cruise.

Does the ZMS1....with % to "decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles" work with torps?


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