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Mad0ne
Caldari
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.04.26 10:06:00 - [1441]
 

Edited by: Mad0ne on 26/04/2009 10:07:51
Lets see now

To take 2 SB-s that deal 550 dps each when sorta maxed skills to BS, <300 to bc, <150 cruiser, not talking about hacs blahblah..

Or to take 2 Ranises that deal 260 imba dps each to ALL ships.

One is like 80 mil, ranis is about 40......


Ofcrouse you have other gang mates with other kind of ships.. tho someone can leave ceptor home and take another much more useful recon or hac.
hmmm really interesting situation.

Really hard choise... to take paper or some more useful ship... Rolling Eyes

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.26 11:48:00 - [1442]
 

Originally by: Black VV
I want to point out that my damage in eft states 400-500 dps with @3.5-4k per volley. I can't measure real dps in game but my real volley after hitting people with various resists is averaging around 2-3.5k per volley, multiply this by 2-3 of us and you are indeed causing a lot of pain 6-10k damage after resists every 10 seconds is well beyond what an active tank can manage. Alpha damage seems to be more effective against this as well in reality.


I am telling everyone what we use for real tactics in game, they are working well with less losses as we become acclimated with the reality of a ship that will give you no second chances. We killed 4 bs, 2 bc, 2 hacs and a recon on a roam today with 5 people, taking one manticore loss to a bubble camp. Good results and hardly the slaughter that everyone seems to be saying will happen. Fleet was 3 bombers 1 inty and 1 hac.
first off, i would like to know what weak resist they are using for a 10k hit, disbelieving this totally:p
and even if, no one use active tank in pvp (almost no one those that does can without problem restand the 600dps a sb can put down now(again how the hell do you get just 6k hit after resist every 5 sekunds with a 600dps? logically it's 6*5=3000 per volley without resist (if volley is 5 sek) so how the hell do you get 6000 after resist? that would be a dps of 1200+ (which no freaking sb can manage to come even remotely close too), and against buffer tanks, even this kind of dps would be worthless from a ship dying after 10 sekunds under drone dmg.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.26 11:53:00 - [1443]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/04/2009 22:04:43

SBs get MASSIVE bonuses to explosion velocity...they're more than decent against smaller ships. With a couple TPs, they melt cruisers and MWDing frigs at surprising speed.


Yeah, you have no tank. Pretty fair disadvantage for a ship that does BC/BS-sized damage, can hit cruisers with this BS/BC-sized damage, has all the mobility advantages of a frigate, and can fit a covert ops cloak.

Quote:
My alliance ran a small wormhole operation today, hunting sleeper hunters. It was a small all-frigate gang to maximize mobility through the wormholes, and they took along a couple of SBs to stiffen up their DPS.

I wasn't there, but the word from the op commander was that the SBs were "pure win" in their current configuration. They were melting big ships like never before and they even deployed a bomb that took out a swarm of drones.


I am actually the person Marlenus is referring to here. I used to lead cruiser gangs...the op he referred to was the first time we did such in a frigate gang, and it's hellishly effective with the new SBs.

SBs are not solomobiles. Yes, they have weaknesses...that's what gangmates are for.

you clearly haven't tasted this... i have and you can forget about taking anything with a mwd smaller than a bc out (or even hurting it), no matter how many tps you hit it with, the new calculates makes speed be the main factor in dmg reduction. and even with the 100% (as it was at one point) torps expl vel is so small that any mwd'ing vessal will be far from it's max dmg (even bs's)

Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.26 12:24:00 - [1444]
 

Edited by: Onizuka GTO on 26/04/2009 12:25:47
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/04/2009 05:20:30
I have the following fit on my SB:

[Hound, Zera II]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Works fine


you put plates on it?
Shocked


whhhhhhhyyyyyyy?

waste of a good slot....
Rolling Eyes

No point putting even a silver of tank on your S.B.

there is no point!

A hit is either going to kill you or not.

plates not going to help at all, just going to give you a false sense of security.

Stealth (Signature) and speed should be your only defence.....

oh wait, thinking about the Interceptor again.

I meant your only defence is retreat.....

and a few good tanked fleet mates....and a tackling interceptor....and a EWAR painter.....and a...

Rolling Eyes




Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.04.26 13:54:00 - [1445]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/04/2009 13:54:23
Quote:
you clearly haven't tasted this... i have and you can forget about taking anything with a mwd smaller than a bc out (or even hurting it), no matter how many tps you hit it with, the new calculates makes speed be the main factor in dmg reduction. and even with the 100% (as it was at one point) torps expl vel is so small that any mwd'ing vessal will be far from it's max dmg (even bs's)


For one, SIG is the main factor...and secondly, they can compensate for each other. If your explosion radius is far below the sig radius of the target, it may still do near-full damage, even if it's going to fast.

How I know your bull****ting: I've tested my SB against a MWDing rifter. I've, multiple times, used SBs against cruisers with great results. Not quite as good as vs BS, but still very good with 2 painters.
Quote:

No point putting even a silver of tank on your S.B.

there is no point!

A hit is either going to kill you or not.

plates not going to help at all, just going to give you a false sense of security.



It's the difference between being alpha'd and being brought to low armor in time to warp out.

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.26 17:22:00 - [1446]
 

i dont know why people compare a HAC or a interceptor to a SB...i mean they have completely different roles.
as simple as this:

SB are made to go behind enemy lines and attack whatever the hell they want. a ainty cant cloak, a inty cant light up cov ops cyno, a inty cant jump behind enemy lines. not to mention the HAC.

i believe the SB is the DPS complement to Recon gangs, as it is fast and stealthy enough to keep up with recon gangs and not being probed out. a HAC in a Recon gang is a liability. who the hell wants to be caugh in a safe cuz sumone brough a ship that cant cloak in a friggin strike behind enemy lines???0o

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.26 18:36:00 - [1447]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 26/04/2009 18:45:39
Charlie, its because most people can't compare ships in a realistic manner. Most of them can only manage thinking in terms of a toe to toe slug fest... and few can think in terms of what effect a ships EW potential can do to make a ship that looks mediocre in EFT in reality a very dangerous opponent.

A sensor damp or (increasingly) a tracking disruptor in addition to a good AB has become pretty much standard equipment for most competent SB pilots. This turns a floating target into an untouchable (or at least very hard to hit) adversary vs most any ship the SB would chose to engage. When you consider that at the very least any other SBs will be fitted the same way (not to mention any recons in gang) you have a very effective defense that allows you to stay on station and pump out the damage.

Defending fast movers are dealt with the way they have always been dealt with, use ships that are designed to deal with them to draw them out and occupy or destroy them... basically the same tactics that nano gangs perfected.

And would someone please bring Crescent up to speed on how easy it is for a SB to stay out of drone range, and that the damage he is arguing about was stated to be for a group of 2 or 3 bombers... not a solo bomber.

*Edit: I almost forgot. DNSBlack, I'd like to hear from you again in this thread. I've been keeping tabs on Dirt Naps kill board and it looks like you have adjusted your tactics to the point where you are starting to see significant success with primarily SB/Recon gangs again. Of course, kill boards don't tell the whole story. Your practical experience, as opposed to the EFT warriors, has a lot of value in this discussion. Either way, good hunting.


Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.04.26 19:03:00 - [1448]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 26/04/2009 18:45:39

A sensor damp or (increasingly) a tracking disruptor in addition to a good AB has become pretty much standard equipment for most competent SB pilots. This turns a floating target into an untouchable (or at least very hard to hit) adversary vs most any ship the SB would chose to engage. When you consider that at the very least any other SBs will be fitted the same way (not to mention any recons in gang) you have a very effective defense that allows you to stay on station and pump out the damage.




this new tactic is the only reason im maxin out all my tracking/dampening skills. so i get that extra bit of advantage on any engagement.

and yes i would like to hear about DNSBlack again. he posted some real good info and stats on the changes.

DJ FunkyBacon
Eve Radio Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.26 20:26:00 - [1449]
 

Edited by: DJ FunkyBacon on 26/04/2009 20:26:40
You could say I'm rather passionate about stealth bombers. This past Thursday, I invited anyone who would come, out to Bawilan for a stealth bomber test. I was one of the bomber pilots on one of my alts, and I can give you this rough data.

With decent skills, not maxed, you can expect a torpedo to do ~90 untanked damage to a frigate that is sitting still. This is a faction torp, and has a range of about 45k, again not spectacular. Once he starts moving around with an AB and 7 painters on him, that gets cut down to about 1/3.

We also tested on an arbitrator, he was purposely fail fit, no speed. With 7 painters on him a gang of 12 bombers killed him in about 2 volleys... he lasted about 10 seconds from launching the first volley.

We tried our luck on an absolution. 12 Bombers were unable to break his tank. In fact, even with the painters on him, due to the tank, he was actually taking LESS damage than the frigate.

Finally, we went banzai on a Dominix. We had him dock once he went into structure. He was only tanked with a very basic t1 fit, mostly hardeners. It took our gang of 12 bombers about 30 seconds to breach his tank and get him into structure.

We estimate in that time, any competent Domi pilot could have taken out at least 3 of us with warrior IIs... had he had garde II sentries, you can figure for 5 or more given the ~40k range. Most domi pilots that carry sentries though, carry wardens, so if you're a max range kinda guy with the t2 fit at 100k+ range, you can usually expect to be insta popped once those are dropped, and sensor damps won't save you.
Either way you look at it:

Dominix: 52 mil
Insurance: 18 mil
Decent (not extreme) fit plus t2 drones: 30 mil.
============
100 Mil
-62.5 mil insurance payout on pop
============
37.5 mil total cost of destruction.

3 Bombers lost =~150 mil give or take.
============
not worth it.

Also, most competent domi pilots will have better than a standard t1 tank.

Conclusion:
Stealth Bombers have an important role to fill in an all black ops/recon/cov ops fleet using cov ops jump portals to slip behind enemy lines as they provide much needed large target DPS at a fraction of the cost of a Black Ops BS.

Outside of this role, you're better off bringing a t1 battleship to any fleet engagement. In most cases they're cheaper, will last longer, and have far more utility options for your fleet.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.26 20:29:00 - [1450]
 

Originally by: Mad0ne
Edited by: Mad0ne on 26/04/2009 10:07:51
Lets see now

To take 2 SB-s that deal 550 dps each when sorta maxed skills to BS, <300 to bc, <150 cruiser, not talking about hacs blahblah..

Or to take 2 Ranises that deal 260 imba dps each to ALL ships.

One is like 80 mil, ranis is about 40......


Ofcrouse you have other gang mates with other kind of ships.. tho someone can leave ceptor home and take another much more useful recon or hac.
hmmm really interesting situation.

Really hard choise... to take paper or some more useful ship... Rolling Eyes


What a stupid comparison.

Rains vs SB? Two compleatly different roles and uses.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2009.04.26 20:48:00 - [1451]
 

Until you guys address the problems with eve's economy and the ridiculous prices of T2+ ships that preclude their use in the main steam, all I can say is why add more when the ones in game already can't be used for purpose because of the insane risk?

The other thing I would say is it actually required rather than revamping what ships are already in the game?

Don't get me wrong we all like new ships and toys but there's already a vast array of T2+ ships that are little more than hanger orniments or misson runners because of insane pricing and the lack of the devs willingness to tackle the problems in the economy's design.

Saibin Gias
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.04.27 04:30:00 - [1452]
 

Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon
Edited by: DJ FunkyBacon on 26/04/2009 20:26:40
...
With decent skills, not maxed, you can expect a torpedo to do ~90 untanked damage to a frigate that is sitting still. This is a faction torp, and has a range of about 45k, again not spectacular. Once he starts moving around with an AB and 7 painters on him, that gets cut down to about 1/3.
...


Will test more ships later but....

Using a Hound w/2 T2 BCU, 1 Damage Rig, 1 Flare rig
Covops 4, Missile Skills 5
Caldari Navy Bane Torp's

vs rifter

Velocity 0, sig radius 35, explosive resist 58.3, dmg 147.1
Velocity 430, sig radius 35, explosive resist 58.3, dmg 76.3
Velocity 430, sig radius 62 (2xTP), explosive resist 58.3, dmg 134.9
Velocity 940, sig radius 62 (2xTP), explosive resist 58.3, dmg 65.2

Test was done on Tranquility.


logeoff now
Posted - 2009.04.27 11:46:00 - [1453]
 

Originally by: Charlie chop
i dont know why people compare a HAC or a interceptor to a SB...i mean they have completely different roles.
as simple as this:

SB are made to go behind enemy lines and attack whatever the hell they want. a ainty cant cloak, a inty cant light up cov ops cyno, a inty cant jump behind enemy lines. not to mention the HAC.

i believe the SB is the DPS complement to Recon gangs, as it is fast and stealthy enough to keep up with recon gangs and not being probed out. a HAC in a Recon gang is a liability. who the hell wants to be caugh in a safe cuz sumone brough a ship that cant cloak in a friggin strike behind enemy lines???0o


HELLLLLOUUUU WE HAS LOCAL??????? there is no behind enemy lines.. ffs.. accept it already!

Mad0ne
Caldari
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.04.27 11:51:00 - [1454]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Mad0ne
Edited by: Mad0ne on 26/04/2009 10:07:51
Lets see now

To take 2 SB-s that deal 550 dps each when sorta maxed skills to BS, <300 to bc, <150 cruiser, not talking about hacs blahblah..

Or to take 2 Ranises that deal 260 imba dps each to ALL ships.

One is like 80 mil, ranis is about 40......


Ofcrouse you have other gang mates with other kind of ships.. tho someone can leave ceptor home and take another much more useful recon or hac.
hmmm really interesting situation.

Really hard choise... to take paper or some more useful ship... Rolling Eyes


What a stupid comparison.

Rains vs SB? Two compleatly different roles and uses.


Are you serious? :D Why is it stupid?

blabla carrier has whole different role than mmm... cruiser! yeah!

Do you actually have anything constructive to say about bad comparisson other than just pointing out that they are different ships? Sherlock...

The point is, which has more utility... those 2 SB-s or those 2 Ranises! Oh they are different ships? U mean like ranis cant shoot torps? Damn... I didnt know that omg

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.04.27 13:48:00 - [1455]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 27/04/2009 16:04:28
Ranger1,

If you like to jion me on coms and chat you are more then welcome. I will send you a eve mail with info.

1. Still not happy with changes. Would like th option of both ships or at least the ability to fit both modules. We were doing more with the old stealth bomber and losing less. With the loss of explosion velocity and the skills to effect better performce we are less effective. The range is horrible cant tell you how many ships we lost due to it. My pains stem back further then even this change. So please dont look at our KB and think we are happy. Losing range and the ability to hit hard up close is a major nerf. We now are a in between so what ship. As for those who think that a bomber is a sub it is not. BOMBERS are designed to hit from long range "BOMBER". As for the bombs well most fleets warp off before detonation. The can see them coming and just move off. We have been in big fleet fights and while the BS were all repping on both sides they wacked my guys instead. Reasons being were to close and with out a BS buffer the lag killed most of us and the drones. The bombs cant be used cause they will kill everyone around and all there drones.

2. The cost has almost driven this thru the roof of unplayable and not worth it. The old bomber was cheap and fun and noob friendly.

3. Our tactics have never changed. Matter fact after we are done iam sure they will nerf what we do.

4. The old SB would allow me to recruit 5 mil skill point players and make them effective. they could rat in it make isk and provide good DPS for such a low skill point player. they also could survive and live longer. With the increase in cost across the board my noobs cant afford to die.

5. DNA and DNS is the number 1 SB and BO alliance in the game. We will adjust cause frankly nothing I say in this thread is listen to. We will take what we have and make it work but this 1.1 patch has made the game alot less fun for all of us. We werent killing solo frigs we were using the old stealth bomber as intended but i guess it wasnt enough. As a group we have begun to sell accounts and look for another game ( No you cant have our stuff). So I have stopped typing and all I do is read. The changes pain me cause at every fan fest they were always looking for ways to get noobs into 0.0 and DNS found a way now it is gone.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.27 15:39:00 - [1456]
 

Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/04/2009 15:55:13
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/04/2009 15:41:29
why again did sb's get torps instead of cruise missiles?
WTF is the point if your going to try to make them cruise missiles anyway?, did you have a alt maxed torp skills that you wanted to use or wtf just happened?

i mean if you wanna have a range of 90km + why not keep the cruise missiles?.
if you wanted them to only hit bs's very nicely, why not just remove the expl vel/sig expl bonus that was on them, and at the same time if you wanted them to hit hard then why not obviously replace it with a dmg bonus?.
then give it the cover up cloak, and there.. A FREAKING F'ING LOT of programming time and rebalancing time wouldn't have been wasted on trying to convert it too use torps and at the same time it wouldn't totally ruin the whole idea of torps and the whole skilltree that people had put into cruiser sb's. (personally my torp skills are better then cruise, but still think it is ****ed up that the devs have been so ertarded about this issue, you should think a bounch of braindead monkeys are doing their job while they are eating something).

so basically too sum up:
abillity to cov up cloack
give sb, the abillity to use cruise missiles.
give them a dmg increase to cruise missiles, with a 30% dmg increase per lvl (cov up), will give around the same alpha and dps.
and there. that's about what you needed too do to get the result you wanted and have now..
(and see how many bonusses is left for fun stuff:P )
.

so basically you wasted away 3 bonusses of the SB and around half of ALL missile support skills.
to give it ONE bonus which is what would be 30% dmg increase.

....
am i the only one thinking you totally f'ed up and wasted your and every ones time?

personally i would give that cruise SB the 30% dmg increase to cruise missiles.
a 20% increase in missile speed but a 20%decrease in flighttime.
a 50% dmg increase too race missiles but 50% decrease in ROF (giving the same dps, but a alpha at around 10k and a rof on around 34sek +-)
this would allow the SB to actually be a HIT HARD and gtfo, cloak then come back get into possition and repeat.

Drahomi'r Bozi'dar
Posted - 2009.04.27 17:06:00 - [1457]
 

That right there is a darn good suggestion.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.27 17:20:00 - [1458]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 27/04/2009 18:23:16
Well, that right there was suggested and rejected long ago... most likely for game balance reasons.

Among other things, it allows for the stealth bomber to deliver its immense alpha with absolutely no reason to try and stick around. Very nice for the SB pilot, not very nice from a general game balance point of view.

Not to mention that you gimp its DPS if you happen to be smart enough to set up your SB and use tactics that enable and encourage you to stay on target as long as possible.

Now DNS did bring up a valid point. SBs are now very skill intensive (if that can really be said for any missile ship). I think that was rather part of the point. It was fairly easy to put noobs or an alt into a SB and for little training deliver a big punch compared to other ships that took the same amount of training time, perhaps a little too easy from a game balance point of view.


DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.04.27 18:29:00 - [1459]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 28/04/2009 18:05:15
Edited by: DNSBLACK on 27/04/2009 19:36:11
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 27/04/2009 17:23:46
Well, that right there was suggested and rejected long ago... most likely for game balance reasons.

Among other things, it allows for the stealth bomber to deliver its immense alpha with absolutely no reason to try and stick around. Very nice for the SB pilot, not very nice from a general game balance point of view.

Not to mention that you gimp its DOT if you happen to be smart enough to set up your SB and use tactics that enable and encourage you to stay on target as long as possible.

Now DNS did bring up a valid point. SBs are now very skill intensive (if that can really be said for any missile ship). I think that was rather part of the point. It was fairly easy to put noobs or an alt into a SB and for little training deliver a huge punch compared to other ships that took the same amount of training time, perhaps a little too easy from a game balance point of view.




Ranger,

With all respect you are arguing from a balancing point of view and yet not one Nerf or balance the SB thread was ever posted ever. The ship was being used and it was fun to fly. Skill intensive????? well the Torps are less intensive then cruise that is the point and they are less effective. They took away months of training and gave use a a weapons system no one trained yet and bonus that gimped it even more. We worked our buts off training skills that don't apply. Again first ship ever in eve to have it main damage module changed. Then told with rigs and implants you can get back past 100 km and in turn increasing the cost. Compared to other Tech2 frigs AF, Electronic attack, the training time was a lot more to intense. the nice thing about AF is they set you up for HACS with there training the stealth bomber the top of its chain it set you up to fly no other ship. The old SB was not out of balanced it was the single most balanced ship in the game and yet that is why no one wanted to fly it they couldn't find away to get a win-sauce out of it ( except for the occasional frig peek and pop). The fact is, it was a tactical pack hunting ship that required dedicated pilots and a lot skill to master not to mention team work. DNA runs bomber ops the way some alliance run cap ops. So Please stop arguing from a balance point. I can put those noobs in AF and we will be as effective but we don't want to fly them we want to fly our Cruise SB.

The devs said they are changing it cause it is not what the envisioned. After 5 years of fun and tactics and people working hard to make this ship work they changed it to something we didn't need. Please come on coms and you will get an education like none other. We will show you the world of the stealth bomber and then you can come here and post from a educated position. This thread is now meaningless Devs are not listening nor posting so we will adjust and play. To think what we type means anything is nuts.

Is the game less fun yes. Is the ship less effective yes. Is this a balancing issue NO. Is this a dev team not listening to us YES. Do we want it change back YES. Will it be changed back NO. So why continue this thread it is to painful. I have canceled one account and sold the character already. I know they don't care but hey maybe it is time to move on.

Ranger1 honestly if you fly with us one night you will learn and experience more then you could ever imagine when it come to bombers. Are you willing to step up and come out with us so you may see the light and learn a lot. Then I will respect your opinion more and listen to what you have to say. This is not ment to be mean or crocky but an offer very few people get.

Black

Onizuka GTO
Caldari
Macross crp.
Posted - 2009.04.27 21:30:00 - [1460]
 

Don't go Black! Shocked

You can always...erm....something....

...bombers...

......
Crying or Very sad


Abram Enroch
Posted - 2009.04.27 22:03:00 - [1461]
 

Edited by: Abram Enroch on 27/04/2009 22:52:11
Edited by: Abram Enroch on 27/04/2009 22:09:01
Originally by: DNSBLACK
As a group we have begun to sell accounts and look for another game ( No you cant have our stuff). So I have stopped typing and all I do is read.


Same..

The SB was a fun ship to fly. Not any more. Thank you Chronitis for your intervention.

I am also selling my SB specced char. So to all the guys who been saying the SB is sooo great now - here you can buy me out, and enjoy it. I will be flying rifters from now on.

Hoping some hotshot dev won't nerf the rifters [edit: give them BS guns]
(fingers crossed).


CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.27 22:42:00 - [1462]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 27/04/2009 18:23:16
Well, that right there was suggested and rejected long ago... most likely for game balance reasons.

Among other things, it allows for the stealth bomber to deliver its immense alpha with absolutely no reason to try and stick around. Very nice for the SB pilot, not very nice from a general game balance point of view.

Not to mention that you gimp its DPS if you happen to be smart enough to set up your SB and use tactics that enable and encourage you to stay on target as long as possible.

Now DNS did bring up a valid point. SBs are now very skill intensive (if that can really be said for any missile ship). I think that was rather part of the point. It was fairly easy to put noobs or an alt into a SB and for little training deliver a big punch compared to other ships that took the same amount of training time, perhaps a little too easy from a game balance point of view.




have you been in the new sb?
if your going within the 50km, you might aswell selfdestruct if you stick more then 10 sekunds (although you would die slower).

although i can see a problem in the immense alpha, but then again, isn't that what the whole point of the paper ship is? decloaking, giving a immense notisible alpha and then dissapiering again?.

even if you say that the alpha shouldn't be bigger, just remove that last 50% increse/decrease.

i see no reason at all to rander half of your missile support skill useless for the sb and destroy the concept of torpedoes, while making torpedoes act like/towards cruise missiles (in every aspect, range/expl vel).
if they wanted it to be torpedoes, they shouldn't allow it too shot over 120km.
if they wanted them too do that and have a expl vel of a cruise missile and a great alpha, why not just keep the cruise missile and give it a dmg bonus? there, all the hopping around is done and you don't rander millions of sb utterly useless while doing this.
and you get a more usable SB then now, while not ****ing over torps.

DeadlyBob
Minmatar
Woopatang
Primary.
Posted - 2009.04.27 23:50:00 - [1463]
 

Stealth Bomber Fix:

Cruise missile launchers X4 remove option to fit bomb launcher in addition to missile launchers

5% bonus per level of Covert Ops to missile Velocity per level
5% bonus to Racial Damage per level based on racial frigate skill
25% increase to ROF (negative bonus to offset the additional launcher)


Ability to use Covops/covops jump bridge. no targeting delay after uncloak. 8 second recloaking delay.

Result.

Bomber maintains its range advantage. Bomber gains cloak/warp ability. Bomber retains its versatility. Bomber does a great alpha and relatively good dps. Still can't tank, still can't tackle, still is vulnerable to practically everything.


Let's do some basic math

let's say the cruise missiles do 1000 damage base after your skills. You also have a launcher refiring every 15 seconds.

so that's 3000 damage every 15 seconds with the old bomber. that makes roughly 200 dps before tank. (I know with skills this can be better. it's just for the math trust me.)

New bomber with its bonuses.

4000ish damage, 18.75 seconds. 213.333 dps

Now consider that the majority of targets have at least 50% tank across the board.

2000 alpha, 106.666 dps.

This isn't a solo pwnmobile. It fulfills its role. It is survivable. It maintains the initial weapons platform which means it doesn't waste invested skills.

Most important however. It would be fun to fly.

I've flown with Black while we tested the new bombers on Sisi, I've flown with my corp while we used the old bombers successfully on TQ. I've got three manticores rotting in my hanger. I haven't been on the live server for anything aside from skill training since the patch. It was rushed, and simply... lacking.

I know that this post will not change anything. It has logic in it. It has experience in it. It's the ship I've wanted for nearly a year.

Players simply need to ask themselves why they fly ships. I fly a vagabond or a zealot because they are useful and fun to fly. I fly a blackbird, or a scorpion because they are useful and fun to fly. I fly a Geddon, or a Hyperion because they are useful and fun to fly.

Please CCP, make my bomber fun again so I can dust them off and kill things?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.28 05:27:00 - [1464]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/04/2009 05:35:47
DNS, I got your mail and sent you a reply. Thanks again for the info. I'll speak with you again as soon as I get done with this contract.

Oh, by skill intensive I mean that to be effective and survivable in the current SB requires more intensive skilling on the part of the pilot. In other words, in the old bomber you didn't necessarily "have" to have level 4 or 5 in all related skills to get in there and contribute and still stay alive. You had range on your side. Now you have to rely on either very high skills to get you out to a comfortable range (either that or invest in rigs), or very good EW skills to keep your target from effectively engaging you. Anything less than level 4 or preferably 5 in your skills that affect the ship bonus can and will get you killed very quickly. Sorry for any miss communication.

Quote:
have you been in the new sb?


Yes, Crest, I have flown the new SB. I very much dislike talking numbers, but as you wish. Although my time is very limited at the moment I have about 25 kills in them so far between my 2 SB capable characters. I have utilized close range (sub 15km)tactics to take down the target while he and his support are being distracted by our support craft, and long range (100+ km) tactics to get the kill using the same tactics that proved effective for several hundred SB kills before the patch. I rather like the fact that at 100km it took around 20 seconds to get DOT, while with Javelin it now takes around 10 seconds (depending on fittings). Most were taken with faction torps about about 65km range from target, that sweet spot just outside of drone range.

If my credentials meet with your approval, I fold up my epeen now and pack it away with my dusty Styx vinyls again.

DeadlyBob, your post got a little confusing as to which ship your figures were meant to apply to concerning ROF and DPS/Alpha, your proposed design or the current SB. If it was concerning your proposal, fair enough. If your calculations were aimed at the new SB my ROF is 8.6 seconds. Again, I'm unsure which you are referring to.

DeadlyBob
Minmatar
Woopatang
Primary.
Posted - 2009.04.28 12:46:00 - [1465]
 

Calculations were aimed at the Old Bomber when it still had Cruise missiles. Sorry for the confusion.

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.04.28 13:43:00 - [1466]
 

Ranger1,

Had some family commitments last night. I will be on and read your mail today. If you like please reg for our forums and we will get you set up.

Black

P.S. Deadlybob please fell free to hop on any time.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.28 14:02:00 - [1467]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/04/2009 13:54:23
Quote:
you clearly haven't tasted this... i have and you can forget about taking anything with a mwd smaller than a bc out (or even hurting it), no matter how many tps you hit it with, the new calculates makes speed be the main factor in dmg reduction. and even with the 100% (as it was at one point) torps expl vel is so small that any mwd'ing vessal will be far from it's max dmg (even bs's)


For one, SIG is the main factor...and secondly, they can compensate for each other. If your explosion radius is far below the sig radius of the target, it may still do near-full damage, even if it's going to fast.

How I know your bull****ting: I've tested my SB against a MWDing rifter. I've, multiple times, used SBs against cruisers with great results. Not quite as good as vs BS, but still very good with 2 painters.
Quote:

No point putting even a silver of tank on your S.B.

there is no point!

A hit is either going to kill you or not.

plates not going to help at all, just going to give you a false sense of security.



It's the difference between being alpha'd and being brought to low armor in time to warp out.


to my understanding they althored the formula for missile dmg so that speed would be the main factor to make ab speed tank much easier.

i have been testing manticore vs. assault ships with both mwd and afterburners with 3 target painters on them, tested on hacs/recons, on gallente frigates+cruisers and same result, the torps are as good as useless and even on 70km they will be on me before i get to even do remotely heavy dmg on them (though i admit last i tasted this was before the tq release. will go in and test it again now ^^ )

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.28 15:50:00 - [1468]
 

I don't know if any devs are still reading this thread, but:

- SB do too much damage, 10% racial was fine 15% is overkill
- I'd still rather have improved cloak with velocity bonus, because its useful in a fight. Covert Ops makes them great in WH space but doesn't add much besides travel security anywhere else.
- Grid issues are nonexistent but CPU is horrible with T2 siege
- Rage are overpowered

Among other issues..

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.04.28 16:03:00 - [1469]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I don't know if any devs are still reading this thread, but:

- SB do too much damage, 10% racial was fine 15% is overkill
- I'd still rather have improved cloak with velocity bonus, because its useful in a fight. Covert Ops makes them great in WH space but doesn't add much besides travel security anywhere else.
- Grid issues are nonexistent but CPU is horrible with T2 siege
- Rage are overpowered

Among other issues..


Ranger 1 ,

You wonder why i stopped posting LOL. Above we have a so called bomber pilot who is saying his damage bonus is to much. Now this is either a person who is not a SB who got his ship blown up or a bomber pilot who dosnt even know what he is saying. Please CCP lower my damage output it is to much (OMG)? Please CCP I want my ship to suck even more. LOL You wonder why reading this post is so painful now.

Black



MyOwnSling
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.04.28 16:37:00 - [1470]
 

Edited by: MyOwnSling on 28/04/2009 16:37:25
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
to my understanding they althored the formula for missile dmg so that speed would be the main factor to make ab speed tank much easier.
Not quite. The reason AB speed tanking works is because your sig is so much smaller than when using a MWD. The numbers for the new missile damage formula clearly show sig as being the primary factor in damage mitigation for missiles. Speed is still important, though.


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