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Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:22:00 - [871]
 

These new bombers should be a different type. Maybe using another frig model.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:25:00 - [872]
 

Edited by: Thenoran on 06/04/2009 17:25:02
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 06/04/2009 17:16:19
Quote:
I can understand not wanting 100km fast Torps, so why not add a penalty to Flight Time, and a boost to Velocity? That way you have fast Torps at short range, and everyone is happy!


No offense, but think you need to read the thread.

Most people were very, very much against operating at short range... mostly due to instant death by defending drones.

I also think you should actually test the proposed changes when they hit Sisi. I think you'll find the flight times comparable to current flight times with cruise missiles, or less, at those ranges... with considerably more damage done to large targets due to the Torp Explosion Velocity bonus.

The end result is your SB will preform very comparably to your SB now in terms of range and length of time to get damage on target (discounting current extreme range setups that are largely ineffective).
Your target selection with your main ordinance will be more restricted to large targets (as befits the "bomber" role), but you will deliver far more damage to those targets.

We won't even mention the secondary benefits of having a Covert Ops cloak.

All in all I would say this is pretty much on the mark, considering its proposed role.
If you want a ship whose main purpose is insta-popping unmoving frigates, I would suggest starting a movement to have one of the Pirate Faction frigates be redesigned to fill that role, or use one of the countless other ships in game that can do the same thing.




For long range bombers you're right, but close range bombers, which decloak, lock, fire and recloak, would have no use for the Flight Time bonus.

No Pirate Faction Frigate exists with bonuses to cloak and good alpha damage Razz

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:30:00 - [873]
 

Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 06/04/2009 17:30:50
Originally by: Murashu
Not all of us live in 0.0, I remember reading somewhere that only a small percentage of the EVE population has ever entered 0.0. Any changes you make to bombs will only effect a small portion of the SB population...

...Being able to deploy bombs in low sec would make up for the reduction in targets and keep me from selling my hounds.

Do you fly regular light interdictors in low sec to drop bubbles? Rolling Eyes

The problem with bombs in low sec is that they are really quite dangerous. I say this because all you really need is some ranged tackle, a warp in, and some bombs.

Allow me to explain:
You make 3 spots on a station; The staging point (1), the drop point (2), the escape point (3).
In 00 this is quite powerful, and in low sec it would be even moreso now that bombers have COCs.
All you need is some heavy (ranged) tackle. Bombers stagger warp-ins and loop around 1231-.
Warp in cloaked from 1, drop bomb @ 2, warp out and cloak to 3 before locked/popped by guns, proceed back to 1.

That is the problem with bombs in low sec. Dishing out potentially obscene amounts of damage with absolute minimal threat to the bomber. I'm sure there are some non-YARRRR!! reasons too.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:38:00 - [874]
 

Quote:
For long range bombers you're right, but close range bombers, which decloak, lock, fire and recloak, would have no use for the Flight Time bonus.


Except for the 15 second recloak delay, which makes recloaking or avoiding drone by anything other than warping out, impossible.

Quote:
No Pirate Faction Frigate exists with bonuses to cloak and good alpha damage


Agreed, especially one that can use bonused cruise missiles. I sense a threadnaught in the offing. Laughing


Gekkoh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:41:00 - [875]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

That is pretty much what we hinted at with the original answer but it is not as easy to do as it sounds. Ideally, we would let you choose between the improved cloak with 5 sec recloak delay and cloaked velocity and the covert ops cloak. For now it is a case of either/or and we chose the covert ops ability for the benefits it provides to surprise attacks as being better overall.


Two suggestions, since I like more choice!

1. Create another ship type. Doesn't have to have a different hull, just different properties.

2. What if Cov Ops cloaks used a script that changed its behavior? Unscripted, it works as it does now. Scripted, it doesn't allow you to warp cloaked, but enables the "blink", unscripted it works as it does now.

(I have no idea what technical limitations you have that are preventing you from doing what you'd actually like to do, but maybe either of those will help you do it.)

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:43:00 - [876]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
For long range bombers you're right, but close range bombers, which decloak, lock, fire and recloak, would have no use for the Flight Time bonus.


Except for the 15 second recloak delay, which makes recloaking or avoiding drone by anything other than warping out, impossible.




Don't really get why it has be to 15 seconds and not 5 like the current Stealth Bombers.
At 100km it doesn't matter and at short ranges you're not gonna be around long enough for it to be overpowered somehow.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.06 17:44:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 06/04/2009 17:30:50
Originally by: Murashu
Not all of us live in 0.0, I remember reading somewhere that only a small percentage of the EVE population has ever entered 0.0. Any changes you make to bombs will only effect a small portion of the SB population...

...Being able to deploy bombs in low sec would make up for the reduction in targets and keep me from selling my hounds.

Do you fly regular light interdictors in low sec to drop bubbles? Rolling Eyes

The problem with bombs in low sec is that they are really quite dangerous. I say this because all you really need is some ranged tackle, a warp in, and some bombs.

Allow me to explain:
You make 3 spots on a station; The staging point (1), the drop point (2), the escape point (3).
In 00 this is quite powerful, and in low sec it would be even moreso now that bombers have COCs.
All you need is some heavy (ranged) tackle. Bombers stagger warp-ins and loop around 1231-.
Warp in cloaked from 1, drop bomb @ 2, warp out and cloak to 3 before locked/popped by guns, proceed back to 1.

That is the problem with bombs in low sec. Dishing out potentially obscene amounts of damage with absolute minimal threat to the bomber. I'm sure there are some non-YARRRR!! reasons too.


Yeah, the whole "bomb the station traffic and leave before the bomb detonates causing gun aggro" kind of puts a damper on the "bombing in low sec" option. Too exploitable.

On a positive note, I think the new velocity of bombs will make all the difference in the world on their use. Currently on Tranquility, using bombs is like having a game of "Hot Potato" only with grenades.






CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.06 17:58:00 - [878]
 

Originally by: RedSplat

Your, or rather the Dev teams, reasoning in full as to why Bomb use isnt suitable for Lowsec. Further what reasons led the confining of Bombs to Lowsec on thier introduction to the game during design and why yu think that reasoning is still apropriate.



Exploit potential: adding this to low sec would give us a lot of work going through all the potential loopholes and and potential exploits with bomb use in low sec particular with aggression rules regarding sentries and the like.

Smartbombs alone give us headaches with situations like rancer or friends in different corps running missions together and smartbombing the other guys drone for example.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.06 18:08:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

Can at least you leave a paper note in your desk written "One day.. check again if now we can give SBombers a special cloak.." ?


It's more than just a post-it :), we are still exploring possibilities and fine tuning based on feedback here. Anything that cannot make it into this patch will be queued for the future patches.

We are hoping we can respond at a much faster pace in the future to balancing as discussed with the CSM with fine tuning of stuff and break the expectation that we will never revisit a ship once we have passed over it. The fine tuning of the bomber role will continue for the future though we must have realistic cut off points according to other needs and workflows.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.06 18:12:00 - [880]
 

Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Can't you create a new cloak module that ships that use cov ops cloak can also fit? But that cloak is a normal cloak but with 100% cloaked speed bonus?


That woudl solve all the issues... a normal cloak that can also only be fit by ships that use cov ops cloak but with different usage (no warp cloaked)


That is pretty much what we hinted at with the original answer but it is not as easy to do as it sounds. Ideally, we would let you choose between the improved cloak with 5 sec recloak delay and cloaked velocity and the covert ops cloak. For now it is a case of either/or and we chose the covert ops ability for the benefits it provides to surprise attacks as being better overall.




Why not give Stealth Bombers a small velocity bonus then? Out of all the Frigates they are by far the slowest.


mainly comes down to the risk of obsoleting the covert ops class. This was the reason we kept the manoeuvrability down but increased the torpedo/bomb effective range which when combined with the covert ops cloak so you could safely partner with a covert ops to position you for the warp in for example. This is a compromise of a few factors to achieve the best possible balance between the frigate classes.

smokeydapot
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:13:00 - [881]
 

Edited by: smokeydapot on 06/04/2009 18:14:47
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
an update to the update to the update

Summary of all changes on or coming to sisi

something of a recap for those late to the thread


  • Stealth bombers are now focused on using torpedoes which results in their focus being more against bigger ships analogous to 'glass cannons'.

  • they can now equip and use covert ops cloaks so you can surprise your enemy

  • they have received fittings attributes increases to increase their possible fittings

  • bombs will cost around 900k to manufacture

  • bomb velocity has been increased to 2000 m/s



example nemesis description

Quote:

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level
20% bonus to torpedo velocity per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb thermal damage per level
15% bonus to torpedo thermal damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.75% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators, covert ops cloaks and bomb launchers




Changes being tested since last update which are coming to sisi soon

- torpedo flight time has been increased by 50% (13.5 sec) making the torpedo effective range 60k - 130k dependant on fitting.
- bomb forward velocity has been increased to 2,000 m/sec
- minor adjustments to fitting attributes

as ever, nothing is set in stone and subject to change



Sorry but i still fail to see the use of this ship for a med skilled pilot insta poping most frigs / destroyers ( the things this ship fears the most because of the 1000 + m/s move speed most frigs have ) and the fact of there fast lock times and ability to pop SB's quite quickly, your moving to a field of realtive little intrest ( bigger ships ).
A frig doing so much to a BS on its own is silly to say the least ( and you need to be all lvl 5 skilled to do it from what i can make out ).

I see that the tunel vision is still set to torps as far as the devs go and not even considering sorting out the bonuses so the SB can finaly kill ALL frigs.

You may be reading what people are saying but i dont think any of it is sinking in you can keep buttering up the idea of a torp frig but im not buying it you have made all the time i have put into this ship worth nothing ( including the billion or so i have in implants for this thing ) not to mention the isk i have poured into the ship's, fittings, rigs, mods and ammo mind you your happy my money is lining your pocket.

FAIL

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.06 18:14:00 - [882]
 

Originally by: Gekkoh

2. What if Cov Ops cloaks used a script that changed its behavior?



one of the solutions we will explore in the future.

BetaZ
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:17:00 - [883]
 

Any chance you guys would be willing to redistribute my Cruise skills into Torps? (I understand this maybe be a major undertaking depending on the number of requests from other members, but, as I've stated before, you are make a drastic change to my skill planning. This change is akin to a "factory recall". In such situation, the manufacturer must not put all the burden on the consumers.)

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:23:00 - [884]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Can't you create a new cloak module that ships that use cov ops cloak can also fit? But that cloak is a normal cloak but with 100% cloaked speed bonus?


That woudl solve all the issues... a normal cloak that can also only be fit by ships that use cov ops cloak but with different usage (no warp cloaked)


That is pretty much what we hinted at with the original answer but it is not as easy to do as it sounds. Ideally, we would let you choose between the improved cloak with 5 sec recloak delay and cloaked velocity and the covert ops cloak. For now it is a case of either/or and we chose the covert ops ability for the benefits it provides to surprise attacks as being better overall.




Why not give Stealth Bombers a small velocity bonus then? Out of all the Frigates they are by far the slowest.


mainly comes down to the risk of obsoleting the covert ops class. This was the reason we kept the manoeuvrability down but increased the torpedo/bomb effective range which when combined with the covert ops cloak so you could safely partner with a covert ops to position you for the warp in for example. This is a compromise of a few factors to achieve the best possible balance between the frigate classes.


Covert Ops will always be needed, if not for ship probing alone.
Obsoleting them is hardly an issue.
In addition, why not just give the Stealth Bomber only the CovOps cloak and not the other CovOps crap?
Might free a bonus slot or something.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:25:00 - [885]
 

Quote:
I see that the tunel vision is still set to torps as far as the devs go and not even considering sorting out the bonuses so the SB can finaly kill ALL frigs.


You're making my teeth itch.

Killing frigs is not the SB's role, it never was its role, and will never be its role.
Yes, many current SB pilots improvised and became proficient at popping the odd motionless frig at a gate. Not really most people's idea of fun, or what most people think of when they think of the term "bomber".

Now go read the thread again.


smokeydapot
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:33:00 - [886]
 

Edited by: smokeydapot on 06/04/2009 18:35:03
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I see that the tunel vision is still set to torps as far as the devs go and not even considering sorting out the bonuses so the SB can finaly kill ALL frigs.


You're making my teeth itch.

Killing frigs is not the SB's role, it never was its role, and will never be its role.
Yes, many current SB pilots improvised and became proficient at popping the odd motionless frig at a gate. Not really most people's idea of fun, or what most people think of when they think of the term "bomber".

Now go read the thread again.




"resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets."

so that

"-16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level"

and that are not aimed at killing frigs better hhhmmm prehaps you should read the currand bonuses befor you say there not ment to kill frigs.

get to the dentist and sort out that itch.

Chinchek
khanid industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:33:00 - [887]
 

Hey CCP, will you be transferring cruise skills to torp skills?

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:35:00 - [888]
 

All right!

These changes just keep getting better. Now, if I understand correctly, we're back to a bomber that can be used from range (if you're willing to grant alert targets time to warp away) and has a bigger boom against bigger ships, which is awesome. Plus, it gets the covert ops cloak -- a huge hunting advantage I never thought I'd see, but will greatly enjoy!

The biggest downside for me is the need to train up torps to equivalent levels with cruises. Totally worth it in exchange for warping cloaked and large-target damage boost!

Chronotis, thanks for sticking with this and for the thick skin. It can't be easy mining these threads for feedback while ignoring the insults, and it's a credit to your professionalism that you've done so much of it. We really really appreciate it!

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:38:00 - [889]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 06/04/2009 18:40:08
Originally by: smokeydapot
Edited by: smokeydapot on 06/04/2009 18:35:03
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I see that the tunel vision is still set to torps as far as the devs go and not even considering sorting out the bonuses so the SB can finaly kill ALL frigs.


You're making my teeth itch.

Killing frigs is not the SB's role, it never was its role, and will never be its role.
Yes, many current SB pilots improvised and became proficient at popping the odd motionless frig at a gate. Not really most people's idea of fun, or what most people think of when they think of the term "bomber".

Now go read the thread again.




"resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets."

so that

"-16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level"

and that are not aimed at killing frigs better hhhmmm prehaps you should read the currand bonuses befor you say there not ment to kill frigs.

get to the dentist and sort out that itch.


Perhaps you should go read the original dev blogs about why that bonus was instituted. It was to allow the SB's cruise missiles to do full damage against medium sized targets, not frigates. If it had frigate killing as its main role, it would have also been bonuses for explosion velocity, as most small targets are also fast movers.

Common mistake, one you could have avoided by reading the thread.


CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.04.06 18:50:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: BetaZ
Any chance you guys would be willing to redistribute my Cruise skills into Torps?


Typically in the past we have never reimbursed for a ship role change (yes this has happened before). It is very much not our domain (of game designers balancing stuff) to decide that but consideration will be made nonetheless by the appropriate people as the time draws closer and things change to be confirmed in patch notes. So no answer yet on that.

smokeydapot
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:51:00 - [891]
 

Edited by: smokeydapot on 06/04/2009 18:52:31
Well prehaps they should think carefully about the wording in the descriptions then since a C , BC is not considerd a SMALL or SMALLER target but hay i cant help you interpritation of the word SMALL or SMALLER target now can i.

Nimrel
Caldari
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:51:00 - [892]
 

Edited by: Nimrel on 06/04/2009 19:00:51
Well, we seem to be continuing down the "Torpedos on Bombers" thread. Let me see if I can summarize where we're ending up:

- Bombers will have ~75% of the dps of a Raven, 70k-130k range, but with a long time from fire to impact (60 secs?) at range
- Bombers will have a 'glass tank'
- Bombers will have moderate agility & low speed
- Bombers will have a CovOps cloak and the ability to use Covert Cynos

The negative changes from the current bomber are:

- Significantly lower damage against frigates and much reduced damage against cruisers without significant target paintage
- Lower range and longer flight time of weapons

The positive changes from the current bomber are:

- CovOps cloak opens up some new possibilities
- Effective DPS, especially at close range where flight time isn't a problem, is significantly boosted (50%?) against BC and larger ships and towers
- Bombs sound like they will be effective with the balance changes.

The lost abilities of this bomber are:

- No longer a reasonable choice for Lvl 1 or Lvl 2 combat missions
- No longer a good "My First T2 Ship" for noob pilots, as it's too specialized a role that takes too much finesse to fly
- Small 0.0 gangs of 4-5 ships will likely need to have "more diversely capable" ships since the SB will be underutilized against the most common targets (frigs and cruisers)
- No longer a good choice for good choice for sniper scenarios such as Falcon or Logistics suppression or warping in at range.

The 'theoretical' new abilities of this bomber are:

- BS Killer. Lots of questions about how effective it will be with the glass tank, the long flight time, etc. Good questions continue to be raised about "why not fly something else like a BC or a BS for this role".
- Cyno Jammer Killer. Lots of questions about who in their right mind would bring a 'glass tank' to a defended POS. I did it once thinking my 200 km range would be my tank. Never again :-)

The 'practical' new abilities of this bomber are:

- Nice DPS ship for close range encounters with BC+ ships, provided some form of ECM defense (e.g. Falcons?) is provided.
- Solo BSes will need to fear getting ganked by 3 or so Cloaky SBs. Not sure this is a serious new ability though, as a solo BS needs to fear 3 of pretty much anything competently flown in the game :-)

I really appreciate the thought that is going into this process and I appreciate the amount of feedback Chronitis is taking and the tweaks he's making. To be fully truthful, it seems to me like the original concept (torpedoes! BS melting! POS attacks!) is still fundamentally flawed and we're putting 'lipstick on a pig' here. The SB today isn't broken except for bombs and all these changes seem, well, change for the sake of change.

I'd really like CCP to seriously consider much more minor tweaks, namely:

- Bomb changes sound wonderful
- Add the ability to mount Torpedoes *or* Cruises. This opens up the new 'higher dps at lower range' scenarios that every other ship has. If this is just 'too many bonuses' just leave us with the Cruises or add the Torps with no/few bonuses and see how that works out.
- Seems the majority of people strongly prefer 'speed while cloaked' to 'cloak while warping'. Since every other ship that gets the CovOps cloak immediately has 'nerf the fracker' discussions started, perhaps it's best to not make this change during this initial round of adding new abilities to the SB.

With respect and hoping for due consideration,

- A SB fan

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:54:00 - [893]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Kagura Nikon

Can at least you leave a paper note in your desk written "One day.. check again if now we can give SBombers a special cloak.." ?


It's more than just a post-it :), we are still exploring possibilities and fine tuning based on feedback here. Anything that cannot make it into this patch will be queued for the future patches.

We are hoping we can respond at a much faster pace in the future to balancing as discussed with the CSM with fine tuning of stuff and break the expectation that we will never revisit a ship once we have passed over it. The fine tuning of the bomber role will continue for the future though we must have realistic cut off points according to other needs and workflows.



thanks for the response then and hope this hew style of iteraction works well for both sides.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:55:00 - [894]
 

I'm gonna miss my Frig killer Sad

Maybe I'll try a Rapier with 3xStasis Webs and 3x720mms...hmmmm

Friggz
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.04.06 18:55:00 - [895]
 

I don't have the same amount of data as CCP, or anywhere near the same amount of experience as some others who've already replied, so I hope I don't sound presumptuous when I put in my two cents.

I'm not going to argue the technical terms of this change, theres plenty of more experienced people already doing that who know more then I do.

What I am going to argue about is this: CCP is not changing the current bomber. What they are doing is creating a whole new ship, taking away the old one, and giving the new one the same name and models.

This isn't a tweak to CPU or a small adjustment of bonuses. The new bomber is an entirely different ship designed to do entirely different things.

So here is my question my question for you, Chronotis: Why are you taking the bomber we know and love away from us?

I find it hard to believe anyone is going to seriously argue that the current bomber is overpowered, or for that matter that it in any way negatively impacts the game for its pilots or others.

If you feel the new Torp bomber is a necessary addition, I'm not going to argue with that. What I will argue against, whole heartedly and without hesitation, is taking the current bomber away from us.

When you take something away from your customers, especially as something as beloved as the current bomber, you'd better have a damn good reason for doing it.

So far, I haven't seen that reason. "It doesn't fit its current role" is not a valid arguement. The current bomber has a role, a very important one. Its been stated and stressed, again and again how important and useful the little ship is.

Ultimately, I know CCP loves its game, and I know your trying to do what you believe will benefit the game the most. If you take the current bomber from us, your taking away something people get enjoyment from, and that will only hurt the game in the long run.

I ask you, please reconsider and either allow bombers to have the option of using cruise missiles, or create a new ship for the torp bomber.

If you truly care about the game and the people who play it, you won't deny us the ability to play it the way we want to. The way we love to.

Thank you for your time.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.04.06 19:06:00 - [896]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 06/04/2009 19:12:06
Originally by: smokeydapot
Edited by: smokeydapot on 06/04/2009 18:52:31
Well prehaps they should think carefully about the wording in the descriptions then since a C , BC is not considerd a SMALL or SMALLER target but hay i cant help you interpritation of the word SMALL or SMALLER target now can i.


Yep, the flavor text will have to be changed of course, but lets look at it.

Quote:
In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.
null

Last time I checked, cruisers "are" smaller than the Cruise Missiles normal preferred targets, that being BS and BC.

Again, why do you think they were intended to kill frigates? Unless the frigate pilot is standing still, with zero tank, a volley of Cruise Missiles fired from the current generation of stealth bombers will not kill it. In fact, most frigates could outrun a Cruise Missile.

If it had been intended for this role it would also have an Explosion Velocity bonus.


JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2009.04.06 19:11:00 - [897]
 

Edited by: JVol on 06/04/2009 19:11:13
CCP Chronotis, please addres these concerns...



Those of us who know how to fly the ship are worried about..


1. Not having cruise.

EVERYOTHER class of ship no matter how 'specialized' can use all the weapons in its class. I dont have to choose to use arty or autos on my rapier or falc with heavys/assualt.

2. Not having a cloaked speed bonus.

The ability to warp in cloaked is out weighed severly by the gimped cov cloak vs a +300-600 cloaked speed we need to repossition once weve been spotted, we will ALL be spotted once we attack. HAVING to warp out as part of its design/tactics is the dumbest thing ive ever heard of.

3. Why not a ROF on the bomb launcher that doesnt make us have to wait 2 minutes with lvl5?

So we can attack the blob while its still there? Also, why have a sec hit IN 0.0 when launching at blobs on gates? (which is where they are 99% of the time?) I have a char that went down to -3.4 JUST because of that stupid mmechanic.

3. WHat incentive do we have to train lvl bomb launching atm?

Thx for your time.

Lachesis Moirae
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.06 19:13:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Gekkoh

2. What if Cov Ops cloaks used a script that changed its behavior?



one of the solutions we will explore in the future.


Please don't. Scripts are annoying enough as it is, being forced to carry even more around would just make it worse.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.06 19:17:00 - [899]
 

I'll bring it up again, splitting the two roles into the current ship, and a new one.
Let's use Manticore for current role and Cormorant for the new one.

--- Manticore ---

4xHigh Slot
5xMed Slot
2xLow Slot

3xLauncher Slot

PG: 50
CPU: 280
Speed: 300m/s

Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Cruise Missile Explosion Velocity and Cruise Missile Velocity per level
-20% bonus to Cruise Missile Explosion Radius per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Cruise and Bomb Kinetic damage per level
200% bonus to Cloaked Velocity per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Cruise Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-100% scan resolution penalty and targeting delay

Note: Can fit Bomb Launchers.

OPTIONAL:
Penalty: -25% rate of fire for Cruise Launchers
Penalty: -70% Flight Time for Cruise Missiles
Note: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak (100 CPU) with no cloaked velocity bonus applied.

--- Cormorant ---

5xHigh Slot
5xMed Slot
3xLow Slot

4xLauncher Slot

PG: 90
CPU: 370
Speed: 225m/s

Caldari Destroyer Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level
20% bonus to torpedo velocity per level

Torpedo Bomber Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Bomb Kinetic Damage per level
15% bonus to Torpedo Kinetic Damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

Note: Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generators, Covert Ops Cloaks and Bomb Launchers

This way we have a dedicated small ship killer which doesnt have enough damage to really hurt the big boys.
And at the same time, we have your Torpedo Bomber and a new T2 Destroyer Hull.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.04.06 19:17:00 - [900]
 

Originally by: BetaZ
Any chance you guys would be willing to redistribute my Cruise skills into Torps?


Cruise missiles are usefull for other thigns than bomber. Changing skills is nonsense.Specially because there is alot of people that woudl want to maintain their skill as they are now. So woudl be a herculean work to ask each one of the 300k players if they want a change or not for his char.


Just train torpedos.. 2 weeks won't kill anyone.


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