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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:28:00 - [751]
 

Edited by: Bloodpetal on 04/04/2009 21:40:52
I see these changes making SBs very ineffective in fleet situations. Someone was quoting tests with 1v1 scenarios with a drake or recon ship... where the drake couldn't take it out. However, I guarantee you 1 interceptor would tear that SB apart with that drake there.

Torpedos won't be able to hit a frigate for sufficient damage ever. All you will ever need is a few interceptors to go over and chew the SB apart. Right now, if a Hound isn't greater than 60km (60km / 5km/s = 12sec) out then it is very susceptible to a frigate tackling it and destroying it before it can recloak. Having it at 40km (40km / 5km/s = 8sec) with torpedos gives it no defenses against a frigate, currently a SB can have a chance of taking out an interceptor engaging it or at least avoiding by hitting MWD and recloaking before it is locked. With torpedo ranges and a 15second delay that becomes negligible and impossible.

The max range with max skills for these bonuses seems around 40km for torpedos, more realistically for the average player around 32km. If I warp in to a fleet it is going to encompass around 50-60km around a large stargate. In order to even get CLOSE to a primary on the far side would require me to be in the MIDDLE of the enemy fleet to shoot them. Then, if there is an interceptor orbiting that gate at 20km, I'll be within 10km of that interceptor orbiting it. Makes little to no sense to have such short ranges on an SB.

I like the idea of the covert ops cloak to make entry to a combat situation less telegraphed, and makes bombing much easier. However, it doesn't really effect anything else to warrant a 15 second timer. Having 5-6 SB enter to shoot torpedos is forcing them to warp in, then slowly close in to uncloak and then shoot a few volleys only to warp away before they're gunned down in 15 seconds. It takes less than 15 seconds for a sensor boosted turret ship to shoot down an SB, or inty to tackle it. You're blocking Stealth Bomber pilots into bricks of 20-30 where they land, shoot one volley, 1 volley pop it, and then warp off before their 15 seconds is over. Seems pretty ineffective to me. As a Stealth bomber pilot, warping away is the 1st thing you prepare to do if your cloaking fails. With a 15 second timer, my cloaking device is always "failing" and I will warp away after my first volley, only to return from the nearest planet/ss within 45 seconds. Better than being dead because I can't recloak at 30km.

With the 5 second recloak you can at least "skip" cloaking cycles, hit your MWD and keep moving and orbiting around the combat site to keep away from interceptors and launch a volley, sensor dampen the anti-SB lockers and then recloak. Although the damage output isn't as effective, you are capable of staying in the battle. The only change I see is that SBs are now designed to be single-shot revolvers, that you shoot and throw away.

Your current implementation makes SBs archaic in 0.0 combat, unless they have a bomb, the one thing you haven't changed. It confines it to a short range role which makes it totally vulnerable in close range scenarios and effectively useless in sniper fleets. It also makes its number one enemy... itself. Just launch a bomb at the SB fleet before they warp away and the 10-20 ships are dead. The #1 rule in EvE is that every counter-strategy is a unique and seperate strategy from the one employed. What is the best way to counter 20 SBs? Bomb or? Nothing.

Suggestions

Covert Ops Cloaking with 5 second delay. Drop the speed bonus and allow for MWD cloak "skipping" for maneuverability around a battlefield. It FORCES the SB somewhat visible to the opponent, but keeps it evasive enough to survive in a combat environment.

Increase average range for torpedos to 60kms, so around 40% bonus to Torpedo Speed (or lifetime). Enough to let an SB engage at long ranges in fleet battles and evade Interceptors without being too easy a target, but not harmless. Also effective in sniper fleets as a midrange solution

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:40:00 - [752]
 

Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 04/04/2009 21:41:40
Originally by: 666Devious
Since I am amarr can i have my skill points back since I trained cruise missiles to level 5 plus alot of other missile skills.


The Sac. Use it. It is awsome. Or cross train.

For thoose whining that it removes the anti frig role. Thats a no-role for this ship, uses an AF or a T1 cruisers. Works better.

Aslo SB's are not fleet ships. Raven is a fleet ship.

SB os a small recon gang ship now. And its awsome in that role.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:42:00 - [753]
 

Sacrilege can't use cruise missiles. It uses Heavy/ Heavy Assault missiles. That's not solution for L5 in cruise missiles that you may never use if you aren't Caldari and only trained it for Stealth Bombers.


666Devious
Sinister Elite
Raining Doom
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:43:00 - [754]
 

They use missiles; Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, and Sacrilege. But out of those i see nothing that uses cruise missiles. Its not like I am going to use a high slot on my abaddon that gets a bonus to damage on large guns, or the two slots on the apoc that gets range bonus to large guns.

666Devious
Sinister Elite
Raining Doom
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:45:00 - [755]
 

Edited by: 666Devious on 04/04/2009 21:48:04
Lindsay how would you know if the sacrilege is awesome you dont even know what weapons it uses?

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:45:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 04/04/2009 21:46:24
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Sacrilege can't use cruise missiles. It uses Heavy/ Heavy Assault missiles. That's not solution for L5 in cruise missiles that you may never use if you aren't Caldari and only trained it for Stealth Bombers.




Bad prioritizing then. Besides the support skills shine with it.

Originally by: 666Devious
Lindsy how would you know if the sacrilege is awesome you dont even know what weapons it uses?


Cuase I know that the missile support skills work with it Rolling Eyes

Drevar
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:48:00 - [757]
 

I like the concept of a torpedo boat, similar in role to those used in the Pacific during WW2, but don't see that being the job the stealth bomber is supposed to fill. A stealth bomber should pop in, fire, and pop out with (if successful) noone realizing they were there until stuff starts going boom.

To that end, would it be easier to just add ship specific modules for Stealth Bombers? Give them large damage and range bonuses, but extremely limited ammo capacity. As far as I can tell, they are intended to be one-shot wonders, and not hang around in the fight so there is no need for high ammo capacity or even cargo space. Their role also shouldn't be limited to taking out big ships (BS or capitals-create the torpedo fast torpedo boats for that) but taking out the systems keeping the allied big guns from coming in, i.e. taking out the logistics, command, and tackling capabilities.

The torpedo boats would be non-stealth fast frigates with 2 or 3 torpedo launchers and big damage bonuses, specifically intended to take down BS or severely impede capitals or interfere with the enemy's industrial base by decimating mining ops and other industrial ships. Paper thin armor and hulls, yes (WW2 torpedo boats were made of plywood), but pack a punch and would be easy to skill into. The threat of losing a 100M ISK battleship to a 12M frigate would increase the importance of mixed fleets. The trick would be to balance the grief factor out of it, as it would become the suicide gank ship of choice for taking down industrial ships in high sec.

A side thought; a torpedo warhead that functions like an area effect energy neutralizer would be great for this type of role. Won't cause much damage, but it can wreak logistical havok on the enemy.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:52:00 - [758]
 

Having tested the bombers against a real opponent (2005 pvp character in a mega) I can say that it's pretty decent. Drones are a very serious concern and some sort of secondary weaponry is needed to dispatch them, I tried a pair of small smartbombs (no cloak) but wasn't very happy. I was using the hound with 2 BCU II's, 24km disruptor, target painter and ABII. It did require 1 co-processor with a single missile rig (torp speed). The use of 2 smartbombs was more for experimenting than anything else, you wouldn't normally drop the cov ops cloak for that.

The ship had a shortage of CPU and a massive overkill of grid (like 25-50% more than I needed). Damage was good, no idea on dps but I was hitting for 800 volley on the target with him MWDing around and I had torps level 1 at the time. I nearly soloed him but he eventually mwd'd away and got a pair of decent hits on me and that was that. Honestly he reacted poorly for most of the fight. I was webbed for pretty much the whole thing btw. Also had to reload the launchers once and would have needed a second reload to finish him if I hadn't been destroyed.

Platis
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:19:00 - [759]
 

Dont change them CCP.

Platis
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:22:00 - [760]
 

And yea Stealth Bombers have no tank,and at 30km to 40km range... You will die pretty easy and quick i'd imagine,our range is our only defense and your taking that away ?? Wow.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:23:00 - [761]
 

Originally by: Platis
And yea Stealth Bombers have no tank,and at 30km to 40km range... You will die pretty easy and quick i'd imagine,our range is our only defense and your taking that away ?? Wow.


You realized thats that means nothing in a recon gang with a falcon and/or arazu or even rapier? Cuase SB's are not solo shipos, they now have a role as dps support for recon gangs, or supprise dps for other gangs.

Platis
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:26:00 - [762]
 

Who cares dude,and yea it does mean something. Not everyone has those kind of gangs up.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:46:00 - [763]
 

Originally by: Platis
Who cares dude.


I for one. And many others.

SBs have lacked a role, until now.

Now they got a great role.

JumpSwarm
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:55:00 - [764]
 

Edited by: JumpSwarm on 04/04/2009 22:55:36
would be a good start as SB's are almost useless unless in a very large group right now. its difficult to even lock down and eliminate all but the smallest of targets alone.

i have spent many hours trying to find a usefull role for them but they lack purpose and thus i have opted out of using one many times.. if not all the time.

until now perhapse

Platis
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:57:00 - [765]
 

And I guess this needs repeating: forget about cruise missiles. You are not going to get them for free on a ship that is already about as good as you can possibly justify. So, which would you rather have:

1) An awesome, perfectly focused torpedo bomber.

OR

2) A bomber that is weaker with torps in exchange for the ability to fit cruise missiles.


I think I'll take the one that actually does the job correctly and learn to fit javelin torps.




PS: anyone who wants the non-covert cloaks back is utterly insane. Current bombers are a waste of database space, due in large part to the lack of the covert ops cloak. Please note that if the covops cloak is removed because of you people whining about it, you should expect to be hunted down and griefed out of the game by those of us who are eagerly waiting for our new covert pwnmobiles.

Pwnmobiles..??

Platis
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:58:00 - [766]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Platis
Who cares dude.


I for one. And many others.

SBs have lacked a role, until now.

Now they got a great role.


Yea they do get a role now,being in range of getting ****d.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:09:00 - [767]
 

Originally by: Platis
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Platis
Who cares dude.


I for one. And many others.

SBs have lacked a role, until now.

Now they got a great role.


Yea they do get a role now,being in range of getting ****d.


There is risk, certanly. But that is why you got a cov ops cloak to choose your engagements. And there got to be risk for a frig fitting torps.

Now you have the ability to actually kill targets in gangs if you do it right. And killing BSs is more of a bombers role then as anti frig weapon (as it marginally was with the cruises).

Sure, it do suck for somone skilling a lot in cruises just for SB, but thats how it is. I skilled for stuff earlier myself, only to have it changed, but I deal with it, and adapt as best I can.

I frimly belive this new role for the SB will far outweight the usefulness it previously had. Big time.

Hariko Tenaga
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:12:00 - [768]
 

my 2c: I like some of the changes in principle, but agree with the numerous voices that ask for a second bomber.
In fact, if we're having torps & a re-cloak delay, perhaps a cruiser-sized Recon bomber might be more appropriate? This would leave the paper-thin cov-ops bombers able to use their range and unable to use the cov ops cloak. Then the larger ship would deal more alpha from torps & be able to fit cov ops cloak along with the re-cloak delay.
I appreciate that a new ship involves far more work than twisting an existing one into a new mould, but I also believe that the two types of bomber (torps & cov cloak/cruise and speed cloak) should exist side by side in the universe.
If not this then would there not be some potential to have two factions change their bomber strategy to better suit their typical combat philosophy whilst the others stay roughly similar, but tweaked?

Paapee
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:29:00 - [769]
 

You should change the cloaking skill to help with scan res, rather then targeting delay. This way you get the skill bonuses on all the new changes we are talking about on the ship which should have a cloak on now. At the end of the day, it actually does the same thing for normal non-sleathy ships, but really nothing for "cloakers" since they all pertty much have a no targeting delay after the decloak, but still have the scan res hit.
Pp

Strure
Vikings In Space
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:35:00 - [770]
 

Edited by: Strure on 04/04/2009 23:42:50
OMG, range was what kept these paper ships alive. They were perfect to harass cruiser/BC and short ranged BS. Smaller ships could survive, and interceptors were the biggest threat but were all vulnerable if they dropped speed. Their big downside was being a more effective defensive weapon that you pre-positioned and cloaked-up.

This change seems be a clear admission the bomb never worked as this should have filled a similar role to the new bomber mission. Heck, just drop bombs all together, and make the cov ops cloak non-functional with advanced targeting electronics (or some such BS) of cruise missile launchers.

Now the one tested and effective role is being eliminated. The up-side is that Black Ops drops just became even more deadly, due to the more typical point blank deployment.

The option of using torps might be nice, but I'd rather stick with just the old, if the new wasn't just a new option.

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:44:00 - [771]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hey Folks,

Quick update before the weekend:

There are some minor powergrid/cpu tweaks being tested on sisi with the next reboot.

The general concept and feel with these adjustments is the choice between all out damage and ewar fits and survivability. It is possible with the latest changes to choose a medium shield extender or 400mm plate for example but you will find it difficult to fit and benefit from T2 sieges and the benefits they bring for instance. Which fit and strategy you go for is up to you but now you have a much more flexible choice depending on your scenario.

We are much happier with what we have now and the choice given to you within the role of the glass cannon combined with secondary abilities of scout and such. These bombers now very much have a good place and role to fill in any gang. There is definitely a lot of winsauce with these and raw potential for the innovative amongst you.

Bombs

We are looking at increasing the batch count from 3 to 20 per manufacturing run. This means the material cost of bombs will be near 800k using current TQ prices.

That's it for the changes being tested on sisi over the weekend with the next reboot.

Please continue with the constructive feedback and we will respond further to comments and suggestions of the last few pages later.

As a reminder, nothing is set in stone with these changes :)



You good sir Win at listening to player base and is made of total win

Seem like praying to the duck-tape altar for the "bomb price reduction" was heard by your lordship and i will continue to pray in hope that the current SB will make it into TQ , along with the nice new blackops(right on spot for that one imo , maybe CoC or more resist would be a good addition to compensate for the insane pricetag :P)


Murashu
Liberal Frontier Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:46:00 - [772]
 

I flew my current SB around for several hours today and the only thing I missed on it was being able to warp cloaked. The SB is an awesome long range DPS ship and turning it into a short range glass cannon will not make it anymore fun, quite the opposite. Interceptors will be tearing us apart as soon as we uncloak and the added DPS doesn't make up for the lack of survivability or reduction of usefulness(limited targets that I can kill now).

Since CCP is so against leaving the SB the way it is, could you please throw us a bone and let us use bombs in low sec? I promise to never fly another ship if I can warp cloaked and fit bombs for a change. I'd overlook the speed while cloaked nerf if I could lob a bomb in low sec.

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:28:00 - [773]
 

Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 05/04/2009 00:28:22
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Platis
Who cares dude.


I for one. And many others.

SBs have lacked a role, until now.

Now they got a great role.

This, combined with two other recons? These will be awesome to fly.

Edit: Hell, you could probably get away with Electronic Attack Ships too depending on your targets. Twisted Evil

Li Ter
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:30:00 - [774]
 

Originally by: Murashu
I flew my current SB around for several hours today and the only thing I missed on it was being able to warp cloaked. The SB is an awesome long range DPS ship and turning it into a short range glass cannon will not make it anymore fun, quite the opposite. Interceptors will be tearing us apart as soon as we uncloak and the added DPS doesn't make up for the lack of survivability or reduction of usefulness(limited targets that I can kill now).



seriously, learn to choose targets carefully, rather than shooting everything hoping to kill it. i like the new changes, it finally gives us some dps for force recon gangs, it will actually have a role again.

lack of survivability is common in frig sized ships, so your point isnt valid. in regard to its usefulness, its increased...


im awaiting the new stealth bombers changes eagerly :)

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:41:00 - [775]
 

Edited by: JVol on 05/04/2009 00:57:54
Edited by: JVol on 05/04/2009 00:53:15
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Platis
Who cares dude.


I for one. And many others.

SBs have lacked a role, until now.

Now they got a great role.



This
is the problem.. SB HAVE a role currently. They are anti support and add MASSIVE dps from range atm.Not to mention it slings BOMBS, which done properly makes it CURRENTLY in small gangs as deadly as a DDD!! "If" they lack a role NOW its because people are too stupid to figure it out, or figured it out and realized its a tough ship to master and want the easy buttons installed. All these stupid ideas from guys who dont currently USE the ship atm, thanks for the TORP-buzzard CCP. Its as if the guys in charge of changing this ship have never FLOWN it ( in combat successfully ) on tq.




This ship doesnt need a cov cloak INSTEAD of the cloaked speed bonus, WHY FLY A BUZZARD AT ALL WITH A COV ON A MANTI??

TORPS?? Fine, that would bring it inline with EVERY OTHER FREAKIN SHIP IN EVE, that has long and short range options. BUT YOUD HAVE TO KEEP THE CRZ, geezuz...

I dont have to choose between autos and arty on my rapier do I? I dont have to choose between assualt and heavey missiles on my falc/rook do I? No, I get to CHOOSE, dont I? yup..

Your over complicating this CCP.. TRY my changes on SISi... I DARE YOU!!


The cov ops addition is someone NOT trying to hard to 'fix' this ship, all your gonna do is make a TORP-buzzard.




NO cov cloak double cloaked speed
ADD torps, ADD damage bonus to big sigs, penaltys for smaller ones
LEAVE crz, ADD damage to big sigs, penatlys to small
Give 2 sec rof on my bomb launcher with max skills so I can cloak, and reposition to fire at the blob I just fired at again...


Now Ive freed you up to go work on ambulation....

Red Spring
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:55:00 - [776]
 

Stealth bombers like submarines should fly stealthed and shoot stealthed (fly cloaked and shoot cloaked) Hard luck on anyone who forgets to scan. (New role for destroyers "Depth Charges! DIVE DIVE DIVE!!!

now that would make sense :) (if only too me...)

Saji'us
Gallente
Pitch Black.
Posted - 2009.04.05 02:06:00 - [777]
 

Originally by: Red Spring
Stealth bombers like submarines should fly stealthed and shoot stealthed (fly cloaked and shoot cloaked) Hard luck on anyone who forgets to scan. (New role for destroyers "Depth Charges! DIVE DIVE DIVE!!!

now that would make sense :) (if only too me...)


In a perfect world.... Very Happy


These changes don't bother me to to much. It's not like I'm going to fly mine for anything more than harassment. (warp in cloaked, align to SS or planet cloaked, uncloak fire off my alpha volley, wait for the target to start locking, warp out.) Of course with a fleet I could stick around for a little longer, but you have to remember, stealth bombers drop their payload and go. The only difference in this new role now is instead of "go" meaning recloaking, it means warping out. For more alpha (hope fully...) and the ability to warp cloaked, This is an OK trade off for what I use my stealth bomber for anyway. Harassment.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2009.04.05 02:48:00 - [778]
 

Edited by: JVol on 05/04/2009 03:10:47
Edited by: JVol on 05/04/2009 03:08:21
Edited by: JVol on 05/04/2009 02:49:57
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
PS: anyone who wants the non-covert cloaks back is utterly insane. Current bombers are a waste of database space, due in large part to the lack of the covert ops cloak. Please note that if the covops cloak is removed because of you people whining about it, you should expect to be hunted down and griefed out of the game by those of us who are eagerly waiting for our new covert pwnmobiles.



[b]You got it, look me up and bring your beat grief cause I want the option EVERYOTHER ship ingame has, short OR long range weapon platform chice. Cruise AND torp for you slow ones...

As far as the cov ops cloak.. damn, It DOESNT NEED IT. The cloaked speed bonus is FAR more of an aid to not only survivability (especially if the doubled it instead of a gimped cov cloak), but getting to where you NEED to be to attack, then NOT BEING anywhere near there after you recloak and move...WHY? Because then you can choose to re-attack, or bug out, or chill and see what develops. Lots of other things im not going to get into as im sure the smarter ones in the bunch can figure them out for themselves.

Who the hell really thinks warping out as soon as your locked (at 40km) is tactically better than damping and recloaking, getting a different position and re-attcking ? Comon man.. ASK AND YOU SHALL RECIVE.. DONT be a uPssy cause your AFRAID to ask for all you want.. I want no cov cloak,double cloake speed and torp/cruise so I have tactical choices with my fitting depending on what needs to be done on the op..b]

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.05 02:59:00 - [779]
 

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hey Folks,

Quick update before the weekend:

There are some minor powergrid/cpu tweaks being tested on sisi with the next reboot.

The general concept and feel with these adjustments is the choice between all out damage and ewar fits and survivability. It is possible with the latest changes to choose a medium shield extender or 400mm plate for example but you will find it difficult to fit and benefit from T2 sieges and the benefits they bring for instance. Which fit and strategy you go for is up to you but now you have a much more flexible choice depending on your scenario.

We are much happier with what we have now and the choice given to you within the role of the glass cannon combined with secondary abilities of scout and such. These bombers now very much have a good place and role to fill in any gang. There is definitely a lot of winsauce with these and raw potential for the innovative amongst you.

Bombs

We are looking at increasing the batch count from 3 to 20 per manufacturing run. This means the material cost of bombs will be near 800k using current TQ prices.

That's it for the changes being tested on sisi over the weekend with the next reboot.

Please continue with the constructive feedback and we will respond further to comments and suggestions of the last few pages later.

As a reminder, nothing is set in stone with these changes :)



You good sir Win at listening to player base and is made of total win

Seem like praying to the duck-tape altar for the "bomb price reduction" was heard by your lordship and i will continue to pray in hope that the current SB will make it into TQ , along with the nice new blackops(right on spot for that one imo , maybe CoC or more resist would be a good addition to compensate for the insane pricetag :P)




Ecpic Win is more appropriate for the new Stealth Bomber. Its is indeed made of it.

Jade Blackclaw
Gallente
Lightspeed Enterprises
Posted - 2009.04.05 03:47:00 - [780]
 

Edited by: Jade Blackclaw on 05/04/2009 03:50:05
Originally by: S'vart Tseirgn

A very interesting idea (I like it too)....the only downside to this I can see is:

1) Bombs would have to be allowed everywhere - rather than their current limited areas (ie open all security ratings for deploying them)
2) People who gate/station-hug...


I don't see a problem with this, you just run the risk of hitting an innocent bystander just like with smartbombs, only difference is less control over the explosion. Risk versus reward would need to be taken very highly, if you plan on using them in high sec, or even low sec then, due to gate guns. Though that's really the case with any frigate shooting near a gate or station.


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