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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:27:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.


Thanks for the input Greyscale! This really helps me out with respect to making some decisions about the time cost of developing w-space ventures. Back to k-space it is...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:31:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Faife
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.


For the love of God, why not? Shocked

Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat?


i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space

guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE.

working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc.


Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:44:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there.


You can live there if you want. Just will be boring.

Sounds more like you want to farm it and that, thankfully, CCP has seemingly made a worthless endeavor.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:57:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Faife
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.


For the love of God, why not? Shocked

Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat?


i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space

guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE.

working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc.


Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned.

Right now w-space is very high risk and while the rewards are somewhat profitable at the moment, it's quickly becoming not worth the headache of the logistics and complexity vs. it's hourly profitability. It's just not good enough.

I love the overall design. The idea that the value of the loot is 100% player driven, that you don't get ISK from the rats. That it requires a team effort for most of it, that it's dynamic with it's wormholes and exploration sites. That there's no local. I love all of it. But it's just not worth the time from an ISK/hour standpoint to occupy space or to even spend a large amount of time in w-space. It's big, it's empty, and not even from a player population standpoint. It's empty of NPC content and resources.

It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:57:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Malcanis
Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there.


You can live there if you want. Just will be boring.

Sounds more like you want to farm it and that, thankfully, CCP has seemingly made a worthless endeavor.



I don't want to "farm it". I just want it to be viable to live there without going back to hi-sec every 10 damb minutes.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.30 20:11:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Remember there are 2500 systems out there so it looks like nomadic fleets are going to be the norm. Eat up one systems sites then go to the next one till you are all dead or eventually find the way out with cargoholds filled with loot.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.
Nailed it first reply but does anyone listen to me? Noooooooo.. Razz

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.03.30 20:23:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned.



People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead.

Maybe just play games for fun?

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.30 20:32:00 - [68]
 

Well Jowan for alot of people the spreadsheet parts of Eve are the fun.

However to address Bellum its been proven that very small groups of skilled players can beat even the moar difficult sleeper spawns so its going to look like an expedition is going to pan out how I originally envisioned it. A small group of combat ships a prober and a max m3 indy to store ammo and loot with eveyone having some form of rr. So loot a systems sites till the good stuff is gone then have the prober find anyother system and have him eject and go throught the wormhole to save mass and see what type of system is on the other side. Rinse and repeat until the indy is getting low on supplies and full of loot then start looking for a way out.

Taius Pax
Posted - 2009.03.30 20:35:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Faife
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.


For the love of God, why not? Shocked

Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat?


i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space

guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE.

working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc.


Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there.


And you can. Very Happy Not that it's much fun, but you can. Very Happy I've said for a while setting up a POS in w-space didn't make sense economically given the early Dev statements and the logistical constraints. But again, they're allowing it if that's how you want to blow your isk.

W-Space is part of exploration. It's not designed to be easy / profitable to settle. In fact it's designed to be quite the opposite. Shocked

Jalum Krayal
Posted - 2009.03.30 20:41:00 - [70]
 


The main problem is that this flies in the face of CCP's stated desire that T3 ships cost in the 200-300mil ISK range. Even if the anomalies/sites respawned every 12 hours, I doubt even a hundred C5 wormspace "colonies" would be enough supply to get prices down to that level.

But whatever, it's up to CCP to figure out how to get us to enjoy their new content. We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do.


NeoTech
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:05:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned.



People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead.

Maybe just play games for fun?


What a dumb statement, i'm happy with CCP's design choice and i also think the op is wrong in how Wormholes should be farmable etc.
But saying people should stop playing because of the isk/hour ratio is pretty dumb, many of us doesn't like this eternal grind that Eve has to offer, which means that we want to make alot of isk in the shortest amount of time, so we can pvp/have fun.

Just saying that your statement is dumb and ignorant, well, bye.

Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:11:00 - [72]
 

Actually if you have a stable gate in a controlled system(read friendly 0.0) I can see exploration of wormholes being a highly profitable venture. Heck thats probably the "best" base for explorations since most random roamers will never scan down gates and go in there meaning your "ratters" can gang up , enter WHspace , clean out and area then enter a new wormhole the next day , or one in a neighboring system once they finish exploring the first one.

But in highsec where every lemming and hampster in the vincinity comes barging in , it wont be as profitable and thats how it should be.

madess machine
Dominium Brotherhood
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:42:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.


/me looks at this quote twice
looks like there might be a lot more to come concerning w-space. Just a thought.

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:43:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:48:18
Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:47:16
Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:45:53
Some people argue that wh should be about emptying a wh and then move on to the next.

Let's assume that me and a friend gets out with an orca to mine some gas. We bring a small pos so that the orca guy can swap ship to a gas harvesting fitted ship.

The orca would have roughly 100,000 m3 cargo designated for fullerite.
Let's assume we are both max skilled with 5 T2 harvesters netting in a total of 5 m3 gas per sec (10 harvesters * 20 m3 / 40 sec duration).
At that pace it will take 5.5 hours to fill the orca.

Let's say you manage to always find C50, one of the best fullerite (with the exception of the rare C320/C540) worth around 20,000 isk per m3 atm.
A full orca load of C50 would sell for 2 billion isk.
That is 2000 / 5.5 = 364M per hour / 2 = 181M per hour per person.

Sounds like a lot?

Then consider this:
You would have to switch ladar site every 30 minutes (10,000 m3 gas per ladar site)
If we assume each wh has 3 ladar sites you would have to switch wh system 4 times.
You then would have to anchor, online and unachor the POS 4 times. That alone takes 5 hours.

Then you're already down to 90M isk per hour per person without even considering the time it will take to find the ladar sites and new wh's.

Most of the time wh systems don't even have wh's connecting to other w-systems which means you would have to go back to k-space and find a new wh from there.
And remember this is still assuming that you're not stuck with one of the 5 fullerites currently worth less than 10,000 isk per m3 which would more than half your profit.

Haven't you forgot something? You still haven't taken the RISK into account which is supposed to be the most important factor...

TLDR: I don't know what there is to come but atm fullerite harvesting for profit without settling down in a w-space is just not worth it.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:52:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 30/03/2009 21:53:44
Originally by: Induc
TLDR: I don't know what there is to come but atm fullerite harvesting for profit without settling down in a w-space is just not worth it.
Did you factor in all the isk to be made from all the other sites? You need to treat an expedition to exploit a wormhole as an olde world trading expedition much like my corps namesake used to undertake. You had a few armed galleys manned by brave hearty souls that are filled to the brim with all manner of tradegoods and supplies that went forth into the unknown to make thier fortune never returning until the ships were full of valuable and exotic goods. Or mayhap never returning at all. Twisted Evil

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.30 21:54:00 - [76]
 

Quote:


Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned.

Right now w-space is very high risk and while the rewards are somewhat profitable at the moment, it's quickly becoming not worth the headache of the logistics and complexity vs. it's hourly profitability. It's just not good enough.

I love the overall design. The idea that the value of the loot is 100% player driven, that you don't get ISK from the rats. That it requires a team effort for most of it, that it's dynamic with it's wormholes and exploration sites. That there's no local. I love all of it. But it's just not worth the time from an ISK/hour standpoint to occupy space or to even spend a large amount of time in w-space. It's big, it's empty, and not even from a player population standpoint. It's empty of NPC content and resources.



Then why the flaming **** are you whining about w-space? If the problem is that hisec is too profitable, then whine about hisec.


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:03:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already.


You're bored and have 'exhausted' it because youre looking at it from an outdated perspective.

The 'old' way of thinking is you jump into a system, and claim it, live there, never really move. Welcome to the 'new' way of thinking.

You enter a W space system, you raze it to the ground, but thats just the start of your endeavour - where does it lead? It might be a new W System, but it could just as easily lead to a .0 system: and thats where you go.

Here the reward is more about the journey, and the adventures you have along the way - rather than just printing ISK.

In my view we need more 'non-isk' rewards within the game such as this, where the activity itself is enjoyable, interesting and diverse even if it doesnt supply you with the ISK to faction fit 20 Battleships.

C.




Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:24:00 - [78]
 

It seems to me that quite a lot of posters in this thread have the attitude of "HAHA, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO FARM W-SPACE HAHA" and are gloating over the realization that setting up a sustainable infrastructure in a w-space system isn't viable.

What I'm working towards:

I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to *really* find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do.

I'm trying to develop a sustainable template that can be documented and advertised to other players so that they too can extend parallel production efforts to maximize material volume and reduce T3 cost. And make some ISK along the way.

If T3 continues to be too expensive to use and the materials continue to be very time consuming to procure and inconsistent to locate it'll eventually end up in the same pile as COSMOS items and BlackOps, EAS frigs etc.

So you assclowns who are so overjoyed that things aren't working out for the few who are trying to make a sustainable presence in w-space should maybe reconsider your position if you ever have any interest in flying a less expensive T3 ship. Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from every direction, and it sucks.

Dire Radiant
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:36:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from every direction, and it sucks.


Rolling Eyes

reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried".

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Bellum Eternus

It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already.


You're bored and have 'exhausted' it because youre looking at it from an outdated perspective.

The 'old' way of thinking is you jump into a system, and claim it, live there, never really move. Welcome to the 'new' way of thinking.

You enter a W space system, you raze it to the ground, but thats just the start of your endeavour - where does it lead? It might be a new W System, but it could just as easily lead to a .0 system: and thats where you go.

Here the reward is more about the journey, and the adventures you have along the way - rather than just printing ISK.

In my view we need more 'non-isk' rewards within the game such as this, where the activity itself is enjoyable, interesting and diverse even if it doesnt supply you with the ISK to faction fit 20 Battleships.

C.



Totally wrong. There is no 'reward' in the adventure and the journey after the first few hours/days/weeks. Notice the lack of 'OMG, I'm trapped in w-space!' threads. It's not a big deal anymore. That lasted all of two weeks.

I can't stand NPCing. New Sleeper AI or no, it's still the same old thing. Now they switch targets more than once. Big whoop. The AI is still extremely simple and I have no expectations of it being more than it is. I don't care that it's simple. It's fine. But we don't fit PVP ships to fight them, we just fit a slightly modified PVE fit.

There is no 'new way of thinking'. It's the same-old same-old. People, and very few at that so far, will venture into w-space on a regular basis for only one basic reason: ISK. Notice I said regular basis. Once the new wears off, they just don't care and will go back to their existing activities.

So no, the perspective isn't 'outdated'. The thinking remains the same. The template that CCP has put forth, as far as content is concerned, is *THE SAME*. The only real (good) differences are the dynamic nature of the wormholes and the lack of local, which is awesome. Everything else is just more of the same.

In my view w-space is a good start. Now we need to put local in delayed mode for all of lowsec and all of 0.0. If you're really interested in a 'new way of thinking' then let's really be new- sack up and remove local from everything except high sec.

Frankly I don't see all the wanna be PVP carebears in 0.0 getting on board with that. All of the NC, Goons etc. would absolutely implode if that were suggested because it would mess with their ISK.

So yeah, you're exactly wrong. Again.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:39:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Dire Radiant
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from every direction, and it sucks.


Rolling Eyes

reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried".



You're misunderstanding the statement. I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend it. I won't explain it to you.

Dire Radiant
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:43:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Dire Radiant
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from every direction, and it sucks.


Rolling Eyes

reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried".



You're misunderstanding the statement. I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend it. I won't explain it to you.


Tis ok. You wouldnt be able to explain your opinion because you have a limited experience in regards to T3.

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:57:00 - [83]
 

I'm not living permanently in one Wspace system, I flit from one to another but I have to say that today was not a lot of fun. Three wormholes and I SWEAR the only things in them were Grav sites.

Havegun Willtravel
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:04:00 - [84]
 

"It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed."

Greyscale WTF !!! ?

I read every dev blog and you never said you didn't want people to settle in w-space. If you didn't want us there you shouldn't have made it possible to anchor a pos FFS !


ATM this thread has been hijacked by the same old BS about isk per hour, risk vs reward blah blah.

The op very validy remarked that he and a group entered a worm hole and completed all the sites available in a short period of time. Then NOTHING.

In 0.0 I can belt rat all day long, in empire i can mission or mine all day long. I get value for my monthly sub. In w-space it appears that i can't. From what I'm seeing when my group completes a site it respawns somewhere else and we have to wait for someone else to do the same and only then if we get lucky will it appear in our wh. If it doesn't then we have nothing to do.

I'm not interested in engaging in the pathetic perpetual whine of isk per hour. I pay RL cash for fun per hour. So why if i choose to have fun in w-space am I finding out that it is not possible unless i roam from one wh to another.

Why did you make the sleepers so hard that you needed a gang to engage them but then not have enough content to keep the group active for more than an afternoon ?

ATM this is the exact same problem our group is having. Nothing but grav sites which very rarely if even spawn 4 or 5 sleeper frigs and nothing else.

Sorry Greyscale but if this was your intention you should have been ALOT clearer in the dev blogs and clearly said there will not be repetitive regenerating content in w-space. At this time we envision it as a roaming gang environment will future expansion potential.

isk per hour - go wine in c'n p.

fun per our = Fail if you're in w-space. Evil or Very Mad

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:05:00 - [85]
 

Quote:
I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to *really* find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do.


And you don't think that if fewer people were farming riskless ezmode missions (Although to be fair, 0.0 ratting in alliance space is no better), there would be more people exploiting w-space for resources?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:13:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to *really* find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do.


And you don't think that if fewer people were farming riskless ezmode missions (Although to be fair, 0.0 ratting in alliance space is no better), there would be more people exploiting w-space for resources?


Um, what? I *do* think that if fewer people were able to farm missions in highsec then the game would be better off, in all areas.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:15:00 - [87]
 

My point is that fixing hisec missions would accomplish the task you're pushing for. Sitting here complaining about w-space respawns is useless.

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:15:00 - [88]
 

Well it seems, according to this:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1038042

that W-space is farmable... but you've got to work at it in a different way:


Step one: find a system which consistently spawns a WH to class 5/6 W-space
Step two: set up base
Step three: farm the neighboring system which changes ever day, or if farmed quickly enough, collapse the WH manually by overloading its mass

There is the risk of group separation, but as WH mass limits are fairly well known at this point, someone just needs to keep track of that and individuals need to watch for destabilization.

I don't know how hard it will be to complete step 1, but so far we've had a tier 5 that always spawns a WH to a tier 3, and a tier 4 (ours) that always spawns a WH to a tier 1/2... maybe tier 6 spawn to tier 4 and 5?

This bears experimenting.

Nightmare I
Shadow Reapers
The AsyIum
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:25:00 - [89]
 

Wormholes are predictable, this is totally against the design idea. Im not sure if i should laugh or whine ugh

CataH's Slave
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:34:00 - [90]
 

you said you are in a class 5 WH ... can you share your set up?


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