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Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.03.28 23:26:00 - [1]
 

Can I get a rapier where I can fit 4 webs and each one is chance based so only has a 90% chance of reducing the speed of a each ship to ZERO for 20 seconds while having an optimal of 150km+. Then take away our Target Painter and give that to Caldari as I will be fine with the new web bonuses and TP fits Caldari more anyways. The 170km will be extremely important because everyone (and their mom) is going to primary the ship that can stop 4 ships to 0km/s for 20 seconds.

And once you do this, I will whine that I have no tank (how can you expect me to tank and fit four webs), have no DPS (which is the case now), and I only got one EW type.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.03.28 23:28:00 - [2]
 

Failed ECM whine Rolling Eyes

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:03:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Failed ECM whine Rolling Eyes
I admit, this was a cheap shot, however I am serious in that I would LOVE the above changes. Give Matar just one EW at a 200km range where it reduces speed to zero to a ship and it is chance based. Instead of attacking the Falcon, lets bring all the other Recons in line with it.

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.29 02:01:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 02:04:06

I think ECM should always be better than all other e-war types because that fits with the backstory. The Caldari are supposed to best at e-war as it's one of their racial advantages.

Also don't forget that although ECM is the most powerful form of e-war, ECM ships are good at nothing else. They give up their dps and tank to be able to jam.

E.g. If you consider the Recons

All other racial Recons get two e-war bonuses, have decent offensive capabilities (via bonused guns/missiles/drones) and are able to fit a tank.

The Falcon has 3 unbonused launchers (LOL). The Rook can at least fit 5 Heavies but it's missiles don't have the range to hit anything at the distances from which it usually jams. The effective DPS of both these ships in most fights is close to zero.

If these ships want to fit a tank they must give up valuable mid-slots that they could use for jammers. As jamming is probability based (unlike other forms of e-war) the more jammers you have the better your chances of jamming someone are, so being able to fit fewer jammers (because you have a tank) is a VERY big deal.

Despite all the whining to the contrary, all these sacrifices mean that ECM ships are actually quite well balanced overall.

Having said that, e-war still needs to be balanced across all races so that all forms are useful in pvp.

The other types of racial e-war are fine in small gang pvp but they aren't useful in fleet combat. ECM is considered overpowered because it's equally effective in both.

Boosting the other e-war types to make them more useful in fleet fights would better balance things.

Alternatively, selectively nerfing ECM so that it was less useful in small gang pvp would also balance things better.

Crewman Jenkins
Caldari
Malicious Demi-Lancers
Posted - 2009.03.29 03:44:00 - [5]
 

What are the other racial advantages? and are they utilized to the same extent as ECM is for caldari?

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.29 06:18:00 - [6]
 

falcon is the best logistics ship we have though...
i wish i could rep as much damage as that thing is preventing these days. within a 400km diameter... and almost no cap use... with cov cloak

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2009.03.29 08:45:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
All other racial Recons get two e-war bonuses, have decent offensive capabilities (via bonused guns/missiles/drones) and are able to fit a tank.
LOL. Yeah those other recons just rock the socks off everything don't they?

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:42:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Yeah those other recons just rock the socks off everything don't they?


Do they provide useful and effective e-war in small gang pvp situations? Yes, they do.

Webs were nerfed but Dual Webs are still useful at preventing a target from slowboating back to a gate/station. The difference now is that your Rapier/Huginn can only provide the initial webs. It requires the rest of your gang to also web the target and provide enough additional dps to kill it before it escapes.

Target Painters will always be of limited use because they only help against smaller targets but the latest missile changes have made them more useful than ever before and they still complement the anti-tackle roles of the Minmatar Recons very well.

Nosferatu was nerfed but when used in combination with Energy Neutralisers they together provide very effective capacitor warfare - especially if you can use them outside of web/scram range like the Curse. Cap is life so anything that kills the enemy's cap is always useful.

Tracking Disruptors are still effective at close/medium range as most EvE ships fit guns and there are only a few dedicated missile boats.

The warp scrambling range bonus of Gallente Recons combined with the changes to Warp Scramblers which allows them to shut down MWDs has also made these ships more useful than ever before.

Sensor Dampeners were nerfed and can no longer be used effectively against multiple targets but using 2-4 on a single target (the same way as you might use webs or tracking disruptors) still has the desired effect.

To conclude, all forms of e-war are still effective in small gangs. However, unlike ECM, the other racial e-war all lack both the range and 'per module' effectiveness which makes ECM useful in fleet combat.

The fact that people still fit Tracking Disruptors, Webs, Painters and even Damps (Note: but not ECM) on ships other than Recons is evidence that these forms of e-war are still effective in PvP.

The imbalance lies with the Recons themselves, or to be more specific, with their ineffectiveness in long range (i.e. fleet) engagements.


Lord Augustus
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.03.29 22:42:00 - [9]
 

yeah lets bring all recons in line give the falcon dps and tank and the rook a more dps and more tank yeah i like it mmm soloing in caldari recons mmmm nice no need to train other race now i like

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.03.30 05:24:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Failed ECM whine Rolling Eyes
I admit, this was a cheap shot, however I am serious in that I would LOVE the above changes. Give Matar just one EW at a 200km range where it reduces speed to zero to a ship and it is chance based. Instead of attacking the Falcon, lets bring all the other Recons in line with it.


i actually think you prove the point quite well and hit the nail right on the head.
it don't take a scientist to see that there is something wrong with this scenario, although the web ship would properly be more useless then the ecm still, since it only stops the ships not randering them totally and utterly defenceless for 30 sec

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.03.30 05:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32

Target Painters will always be of limited use because they only help against smaller targets but the latest missile changes have made them more useful than ever before and they still complement the anti-tackle roles of the Minmatar Recons very well.

no true the new missile math makes them even less usefull then before since velocity is primary attribute in the calculation.

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32
Nosferatu was nerfed but when used in combination with Energy Neutralisers they together provide very effective capacitor warfare - especially if you can use them outside of web/scram range like the Curse. Cap is life so anything that kills the enemy's cap is always useful.

this is true, white you are forgetting that the curse etc. are killing their own cap as well, since they now need to be at the same cap % as the ship they are attacking, so it is a backfire effect.

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32

Tracking Disruptors are still effective at close/medium range as most EvE ships fit guns and there are only a few dedicated missile boats.


these can be effective although they have a major problem since you will need at least 3 of these to have a effect that is around equel to the ecm (2 don't really cut it unless you are in extreme close range)
but these can be VERY effective used correctly, but again, any EW is effective using 2-3 of them on the same target (would like to see a little boost to the ships using these, primary else i guess they are fine)

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32
The warp scrambling range bonus of Gallente Recons combined with the changes to Warp Scramblers which allows them to shut down MWDs has also made these ships more useful than ever before.


true here.

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32
Sensor Dampeners were nerfed and can no longer be used effectively against multiple targets but using 2-4 on a single target (the same way as you might use webs or tracking disruptors) still has the desired effect.


correct, same problem as TD's, but again, isn't it the meaning that if you want to lock down a ship totally randering it useless and unable to even lock a ship, that you would need more then 1-2 mods to do so?.
i think these are fine and ecm needs to be brought in line with these

To conclude, all forms of e-war are still effective in small gangs. However, unlike ECM, the other racial e-war all lack both the range and 'per module' effectiveness which makes ECM useful in fleet combat.

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32
The fact that people still fit Tracking Disruptors, Webs, Painters and even Damps (Note: but not ECM) on ships other than Recons is evidence that these forms of e-war are still effective in PvP.

dude that's a bad argument, you see TP being fitted, as well as rockets, both which are extremely broken and need health care just to service.
people will always try to use what they got, even if it sucks.
(else it wouldn't explain why you see any caldari ships out there not EW ships :P )

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32
The imbalance lies with the Recons themselves, or to be more specific, with their ineffectiveness in long range (i.e. fleet) engagements.



well not really agreeing here, i think it is a balance between the ecm which needs a range nerf, the TP which needs a boost, TD which need a very minor boost, Damps which are fine maybe a minor boost, and the recons which needs to be looked at once more.

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
the new missile math makes them even less usefull then before since velocity is primary attribute in the calculation.


Incorrect. The new missile forumla takes into account both the explosion velocity of the missile vs the ship velocity of the target and the explosion radius of the missiles vs the signature radius of the target. There are multiple threads on these forums which discuss this. Target Painters and Webs now help minimise the damage reduction against smaller targets.

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
this is true, white you are forgetting that the curse etc. are killing their own cap as well, since they now need to be at the same cap % as the ship they are attacking, so it is a backfire effect.


I didn't forget that Neutralisers kill your own cap at all, which is why I mentioned that they're used in combination with Nosferatu. If you only fit Neutralisers then you run out of cap. If you only fit Nosferatu then your own cap never falls below that of your target so you never steal any of theirs. You need to use both.

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
these can be effective although they have a major problem since you will need at least 3 of these to have a effect that is around equel to the ecm (2 don't really cut it unless you are in extreme close range)


I've used an Arbitrator and a Sentinel in PvP which both only had only 2 TDs fitted and they worked just fine.

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
dude that's a bad argument, you see TP being fitted, as well as rockets, both which are extremely broken and need health care just to service. people will always try to use what they got, even if it sucks


You don't see people fitting ECM do you? TPs and TDs work fine. If anything, it's SDs that need a minor boost as apart from Recons, they're only useful on Stealth Bombers.

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
i think it is a balance between the ecm which needs a range nerf, the TP which needs a boost, TD which need a very minor boost, Damps which are fine maybe a minor boost, and the recons which needs to be looked at once more.


If you start by re-looking at the Recon ship bonuses and slot layouts I think you can solve a lot of the current problems with these ships.

If it turns out that this isn't enough to properly balance them then you can always consider changing the e-war modules themselves.

By initially restricting changes to the Recons rather than the modules (which are used on all ships) you're less likely to imbalance things. It's a more cautious approach.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.03.30 10:02:00 - [13]
 

Now that Webs are much weaker CCP could change the range bonus on rapier to something like 65% per level


Or make a 60% range and 6% strenght per level.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2009.03.30 10:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Big bold letters.
Wow. That's alot of bold print just to say you agree with me.
Originally by: Cletus Graeme
The imbalance lies with the Recons themselves, or to be more specific, with their ineffectiveness in long range (i.e. fleet) engagements.
I'm not even going to touch the rest of your post and it's rose-tinted glasses view of other forms of ewar. Crest did a sufficient job there, and your rebuttal was rather lacking.

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.30 11:13:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Wow. That's alot of bold print just to say you agree with me.


I don't agree with you that the other Recons are useless compared to the Falcon.

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
I'm not even going to touch the rest of your post and it's rose-tinted glasses view of other forms of ewar.


You seem to prefer to offer up one line insults and sarcastic comments rather than explanations so this is no big loss.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2009.03.30 16:23:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 30/03/2009 16:24:10
Edited by: Random Womble on 30/03/2009 16:23:34
Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 20:45:32

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff



The warp scrambling range bonus of Gallente Recons combined with the changes to Warp Scramblers which allows them to shut down MWDs has also made these ships more useful than ever before.

Sensor Dampeners were nerfed and can no longer be used effectively against multiple targets but using 2-4 on a single target (the same way as you might use webs or tracking disruptors) still has the desired effect.





2 problems here 1 that even with recon 5 your going to get a scramble range of 18kms with T2 or best named at which point your damps on a battleship target (remember a stacking penalty is applied) are going to be next to useless plus with 3-4 dmps and a scram your looking at either no propulsion mod or no cap injector or no whatever. Problem 2 is that at that range your going to be paper thin and if the opposition have even a couple of ships you wil die very very quickly. Infact your better off having someone else in your gang have a scram and just flying a falcon instead it works much better.

As for webs you may say dual webs works but, tbh its possible without too much trouble to burn out in a ceptor, it does not the fact is now days your almost better off fitting a scram than a web in PvP and again the rapier is paper thin or sacrifices alot of its EW slots for some buffer. As has been said before it needs a second webbing bonus like that of the paladin and kronos to make it effective. No one will give a crap if it loses the damage bonus its rubbish anyway on the rapier and well huginn could lose a damage bonus too and then stopping a ******ed split weapon ship.

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
I don't agree with you that the other Recons are useless compared to the Falcon.
It is not that other recons are not useful, they are very useful. The problem is the rest of us are forced to fly under 40km and we always get primaried. If my webs had a 200km range you can bet I would be fitting Four Webs on my rapier. Even more so if the webs stopped a ship to zero (and was chance based). However, I do get primaried (a lot) so I must use some of my mid slots for tank. There is no ship die in more then the Rapier as you can't web cloaked nor can you be far away.

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.31 07:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 31/03/2009 07:33:59

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
It is not that other recons are not useful, they are very useful. The problem is the rest of us are forced to fly under 40km and we always get primaried.


I totally agree with you. This is why the other Recons are ok in small gang pvp (where you want to be close enough to tackle) but are useless in fleet. They aren't effective at long range and are thus forced to get too close to the enemy making them too vulnerable.

To try and balance things w.r.t the Falcon, CCP appears to be taking an equally valid and viable alternative approach from the two that I suggested.

They aren't boosting other Recons and they aren't nerfing the Falcon's small gang pvp ability so it becomes a pure fleet ship. Instead, they're nerfing the Falcon's ECM range so that it becomes more vulnerable in large fights, just like the other Recons. The Rook is also having it's range nerfed.

This suggests they have no intention of making Recons more useful in fleet fights which ties-up with their stated aim of reducing blob warfare and promoting small gang pvp (at which Recons are ok).

It would be nice to get an official confirmation from CCP about this as we could then stop worrying about how to make our Recons useful in large gangs and instead just use them in those situations where they perform best.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.31 08:15:00 - [19]
 

well.. the caldari recons will still be able to do a magnificent job at 100km from what i understand. the outcries of the last few days are probably based on CCP's usual inconsiderate nerfbat approaches and/or the spoiled brats taking 200+ km jamming for granted -.-
but racial jammers already have 60km optimal, i sure want painters to have the same. not wanting tracking disruptors and dampeners to work 100% across these distances may sound like a noble thing but they dont have the speed to ensure this maximum effect at all times. and they would need that as their EW becomes a lot less useful at short ranges, contrary to jamming. so 60km'ish optimals there aswell plz.

the rigs can be cute but never really worthwhile. i'd support any motion to broaden SDAs in order to boost all EW ranges, not just jammers.

btw, i had some "put dampeners on everything"-evenings on sisi - i must say; logistics, long range hacs and some BS hate me now o_O
whoever said dampeners were dead...? might also have to do with the excessive nano'ing before the speed nerf

Zerode
Posted - 2009.04.05 18:50:00 - [20]
 

Don't buff mini recons, the ecm ships are the only way to counter there ew effectivly but mini recons are allmost impossible to get ontop of to lock them down. Webb range bonus make it easy to mwd out of any scram range. Probably the hardest ship to catch is a Rapier with a good snaked pilot.

They need a drawback!

Cassandra Caffarelli
Posted - 2009.04.05 22:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
I think ECM should always be better than all other e-war types because that fits with the backstory. The Caldari are supposed to best at e-war as it's one of their racial advantages.



Yes, a Caldari player thinks that Caldari E-War should be the BEST.

Rolling Eyes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gallente is supposed to be the E-War whores, read the backstory. They fit their ships with ECM up the wazoo and slaughtered Caldari with drones.

ECM does need a fix though, theres little reason to use anything but the Falcon.

Rather than nerfing the Falcon, it may be better to fix the other recons. Starting with making sensor dampeners useful on Gallente recons.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.04.06 01:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Failed ECM whine Rolling Eyes
I admit, this was a cheap shot, however I am serious in that I would LOVE the above changes. Give Matar just one EW at a 200km range where it reduces speed to zero to a ship and it is chance based. Instead of attacking the Falcon, lets bring all the other Recons in line with it.


If some countires have nukes why try to disarm them? Lets give nukes to everyone!!!


In short: no


 

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