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Ajit Tilak
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.30 12:14:00 - [31]
 

I am not sure seperation is the best thing for the Intaki though I do share some of the feelings that drive this. The Entire placid region has been ignored by the Federation dispite this being where the home world of one of the so called major members of the Federation is. It is a discrage that looks more like the efforts of the Matar Republic than of the Federation in the way the area is developed by the Federation.

If the Federation where to supply forces to properly police the region I am sure many of the pople proposing seperation would back down. However as it stands the independent capsuler provides more to this region of space than the Federation.

However the call that needs come right now is not to the Federation which does not seem to want to answer or to the State which to be brutally honest only care about Intaki space as a way to hurt the Federation. The call needs to go to independent capsuleers, corporations and alliances.

The Placid region is a resource rich area with proxmity to Federation and State space as well as lawless space. This provides an excellent opportunity for commerce as the crux of the location means a steady flow of ISK, if the supply is there for the demand. With the current war going on a corporation could find a nice way to make income supply ammo to both sides as they fight in this and nearby reagions.

Does this sound like war profiteering, absolutely. However this is what is needed for the Intaki people. We need, in whatever way possible to bring in commerce at this time. With that commerce comes increased traffic of lawbiding pilots and increased security. This region is ripe for development and opportunity.

Does this approach help the sepertest movement, absolutely. It provides a needed economic infrastructure the Intaki people could call on to build their own security and economy. Does it help without seperation, absolutely. It does as above and provides a strong economy that will support the region and raise it's ability to police itself.

While this might not seem the most noble or true method of helping the Intaki people, it is the most practical and effective.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2009.03.30 12:15:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
By reading all this you make me doubt the cause i am fighting for.
Am i fighting on the right side? Shouldn't i rather join my fellow Intakis and fight for our home world?



Passero, you are taking the first steps down a long road of self-discovery. I would invite you to come to the Intaki system and see for yourself in what little regard the Federation holds your ancestral home world, but I cannot guarantee your safety. Coming here certainly has its risks.

Continue to explore your history, your birthright and your future. And don't hesitate to contact any ILF pilot if you find yourself with questions you cannot answer.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.30 12:15:00 - [33]
 

Just remember, the cost of Intaki freedom is likely an orbital bombardment. If the dream of independence is worth that price to your eyes, dream it.


Passero mus
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.30 12:30:00 - [34]
 

Intaki freedom? As far as i know, we are free...There is no Gallantian that tells us what to do or where to go. We are free as any other Gallantian.

If Intaki space is really that dangerous i don't think i will try to explore my homeworld. I will however do some more research and train some skills because in the future i want to go were my roots are... Perhaps defend our home, if it is truly the beauty everybody is talking about...

Megrim
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.30 13:07:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Ajit Tilak

The Placid region is a resource rich area with proxmity to Federation and State space as well as lawless space. This provides an excellent opportunity for commerce as the crux of the location means a steady flow of ISK, if the supply is there for the demand. With the current war going on a corporation could find a nice way to make income supply ammo to both sides as they fight in this and nearby reagions.

Does this sound like war profiteering, absolutely.




Also sounds to me rather like the Syndicate. Though I suppose we could do, and have done, worse.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.30 13:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
Intaki freedom? As far as i know, we are free...There is no Gallantian that tells us what to do or where to go. We are free as any other Gallantian.

Our experience ... differs.

But consider this, how truly free is Intaki when the Federation, even in times of peace, consigned our home system to be the preserve of pirates?

Passero mus
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.30 13:51:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Tellnan Matkiel
Our experience ... differs.

But consider this, how truly free is Intaki when the Federation, even in times of peace, consigned our home system to be the preserve of pirates?



You are right but you have to admit... we are free to move among galantian space. They don't force us to move back to our home world. This in contrary in what the caldarian did after the first war... They didn't want that we would live among them. The galantians don't mind that we live amongst them... and thus i believe we are free.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.30 14:34:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
You are right but you have to admit... we are free to move among galantian space. They don't force us to move back to our home world. This in contrary in what the caldarian did after the first war... They didn't want that we would live among them. The galantians don't mind that we live amongst them... and thus i believe we are free.

It is true the Caldari are really no better than the Gallente in this. On that, at least, we can agree.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:04:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
You are right but you have to admit... we are free to move among galantian space. They don't force us to move back to our home world. This in contrary in what the caldarian did after the first war... They didn't want that we would live among them. The galantians don't mind that we live amongst them... and thus i believe we are free.


... I'm terribly sorry?

I gather you haven't recently brushed up on the history of Mordu's Legion. A snippet of interest: yes, there were a few idiots who wanted to throw Intaki who settled in Caldari space out. The State didn't agree.

There was a revolt. The idiots lost.

Mordu's Legion, the foundation of which was based in that Intaki population, is very close with the State to this day, and foreigners who serve in it may gain State citizenship upon retirement.

If you're going to demonize my homeland, could you at least focus on the real weak points of State culture?

Aulis Harju
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.30 19:26:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
Vendrin sighs.

Try to actually learn about history before you go blathering on about it. Your hate is a waste of time.


Wrong. Fighting the gallente and their pets wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself is not a "waste of time". A Caldari who refuses to do so is a waste of oxygen.

For Race and State!

Natalcya Katla
Naqam
Posted - 2009.03.31 02:18:00 - [41]
 

If, at the time when the Treaty of Yulai was drawn up, the local leaders of the Intaki system had wished for CONCORD to assume the responsibility of safeguarding their space, those spacelanes would be as safe and secure today as any high-security system of the cluster. The leaders of the Intaki system, however - along with a multitude of other local governors clusterwide - decided that they did not want the interference of CONCORD in what they considered "their own affairs". A century later, the result is the sorry state of the low-security systems of today.

It is a sad story, which goes a long way to demonstrate the capriciousness and unfairness of any kind of decentralized government, whether in the form of a federal union, a corporate conglomeral state, a tribal confederacy or a feudal empire. "Local government" equates in most cases to "chaos and misrule", and is largely to blame for why the Intaki seen as a whole, along with multitudes of others, have remained such backward people, still rooted in long-obsolete primitivist tradition.

Take a step back, of course, and one realizes that the great interstellar powers themselves, when viewed in contrast to each other, are chillingly analogous to differing kinds of "local government" themselves, and that the differences between them are a source of chaos, arbitrariness and the disruption of harmony.

It is a problem which desperately needs solving.

Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 02:57:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
We are free as any other Gallantian.


I just have to know if I'm the only one who caught the irony in this statement?

You do realize that the Federation is one of the more controlling of the 4 major sovereignties, they are simply better at making the people that live under their rule feel like they have a choice in matters. Democracy is a hoax, the wool that the beast hides beneath.

Nausea
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 09:46:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Aulis Harju


Wrong. Fighting the gallente and their pets wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself is not a "waste of time". A Caldari who refuses to do so is a waste of oxygen.

For Race and State!


I don't often say this, but I admit I would take some small pleasure in making your ship burn...

I commend the various propaganda offices for managing to turn out someone quite as blinkered as this.

Sah Phyre
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 09:58:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Sah Phyre on 31/03/2009 09:58:05
Originally by: Aulis Harju


Wrong. Fighting the gallente and their pets wherever and whenever the opportunity presents itself is not a "waste of time". A Caldari who refuses to do so is a waste of oxygen.

For Race and State!


This is precisely the kind of attitude that helps your enemies. You sound just like the idiot that's running the State now, and the people you're conquering/liberating (take your pick) aren't going to greet you with cheers and flowers for that.

If only Gariushi was still alive...


Robert Kesada
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.31 11:55:00 - [45]
 

Why does it seems that after leaving Federation, Intaki would join Caldari State... huh??
I've seen these things before - someone talks about independence and then somehow becomes an enemy.

Just figuring - either ILF are really just a bunch of fanatics, who don't understand that Intaki would not survive on it's own, or they already have found "a new friend" to Intaki.

Passero mus
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:05:00 - [46]
 

The last few days i have learned lots about my Intaki brothers and i believe we CAN survive on our own without the Federation or the State. We are strong enough to speak for ourself.

I am feeling more and more simpaty with the ILF. Where can i sign up?

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:14:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 31/03/2009 12:14:43
Mr. Kesada, without support from the Federation Navy or patrols by CONCORD, Intaki already stands by itself. If our sovereignty were recognized, who would conquer us? The Caldari? Oh wait...

We may very well be fanatics, sir, but as long as I have a clone left to wake up in, I will devote my life to bringing safety and prosperity to the Intaki System.

Passero, you can sign up at our headquarters in Intaki, or our "safe" office in Stacmon. I look forward to seeing your application. Intaki needs more brave sons like you to find their way home.

Robert Kesada
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:18:00 - [48]
 

And how exactly would it be? Do you have numbers as any other force in New Eden? Do you think Amarrians would simply look at you and do nothing? For warps sake did you not see what they did to Minmatars? And let me tell you - they were much stronger then, than you will be in thousand years!

Don't be naive - our world is not build on making friends - it is build on making alliances with strongest of them, so that all of us could survive. ILFs are just a bunch of self-righteous, ambitious separatists who cannot tell difference between a dream and reality.

Passero mus
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:21:00 - [49]
 

Why would the amarrians be interested in us if we would liberate ourself from the Federation? There all already lots of amarrian who are against the slavery. It is not because there is a minority, if we would be a minority... that all of a sudden everybody with a greater force would like to enslave us.

Sah Phyre
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:29:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Sah Phyre on 31/03/2009 12:30:03
Originally by: Robert Kesada
And how exactly would it be? Do you have numbers as any other force in New Eden? Do you think Amarrians would simply look at you and do nothing? For warps sake did you not see what they did to Minmatars? And let me tell you - they were much stronger then, than you will be in thousand years!

Don't be naive - our world is not build on making friends - it is build on making alliances with strongest of them, so that all of us could survive. ILFs are just a bunch of self-righteous, ambitious separatists who cannot tell difference between a dream and reality.


How exactly do you see the Amarr Empire as any sort of threat to Intaki, considering that events you mentioned happened hundreds of years ago (not to mention that of all people you should be the ones aware of dangers of gunboat diplomacy) and that Intaki is a bit too far away from the Empire, not to mention surrounded by Federation systems on all sides?

You're grasping at straws here. If anything's a threat to independent Intaki home system, it's your Federation with its self-righteous agenda.

Robert Kesada
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:29:00 - [51]
 

Just because you teach lion to eat fish, doesn't mean he will stop eating meat.

I guess you are just to persuadable - you see world in colors which it is not. As I said - our world is not a beautiful and peaceful place - under glowing shine of goodness, there is a shadow of destruction and pain.

And Amarrians show it at their best - do you really think that slavery will ever be banned from their Empire? They sing it, but I personally cannot trust it, not till I see it with my own eyes.

chromez0r
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:33:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: Passero mus
We are free as any other Gallantian.


I just have to know if I'm the only one who caught the irony in this statement?

You do realize that the Federation is one of the more controlling of the 4 major sovereignties, they are simply better at making the people that live under their rule feel like they have a choice in matters. Democracy is a hoax, the wool that the beast hides beneath.


while i don't reside in the federation any longer, i must say that honestly what is your definition of freedom? because to me, being able to make my own decisions, choose where i take myself with my endeavors, should i decide to take a year off for relaxation i can, no-one forced me to work. the choices we can make that involve our personal life is what makes the Federation so "free". sure there are guidelines and rules for people, but without any sort of guidelines there wouldn't be any nation at all, it would be just pure chaos.

oh and please don't tell me about how much freedom other nations get, I'm not talking about pod pilots I'm talking about every day people on the planets living the old fashion life style.

Sure i don't get to have my say in every little decision that effects the federation, but honestly by choice "i don't want to" if i was really that worried i could have "made a decision" in my life to choose that route.

so please miss Subaka, get off your high Uma and stop doing exactly what you claim the federation does "spread propaganda"


Passero mus
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:39:00 - [53]
 

And it is not said that when we are on our own, we could not have allies. Is is not possible to seperate from the Federation in peace, in a more diplomatic way instead of fighting it over in a war?

In the world of New Eden, there are lots of alliances formed from people of all different races that work together as a tight group. Then why should such a thing could not be possible for the Intaki?

Currently their are still lots of Caldarian that think higly of the Intaki so why couldn't we form an ally with those people? There is much possible in this world. if we would face a war against the Intaki people I am surtain we would find a good ally that will fight alongside with us

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.31 13:54:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Passero mus
The last few days i have learned lots about my Intaki brothers and i believe we CAN survive on our own without the Federation or the State. We are strong enough to speak for ourself.


*Tellnan sighs*

I wish you well. I hope the dream of liberation does not end in disillusionment.

*Pause*

Also, I envy you.

Robert Kesada
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.31 14:37:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sah Phyre

How exactly do you see the Amarr Empire as any sort of threat to Intaki, considering that events you mentioned happened hundreds of years ago (not to mention that of all people you should be the ones aware of dangers of gunboat diplomacy) and that Intaki is a bit too far away from the Empire, not to mention surrounded by Federation systems on all sides?

You're grasping at straws here. If anything's a threat to independent Intaki home system, it's your Federation with its self-righteous agenda.


Sorry, I overreacted - my mistake!
I'm not saying Federation is best choice - for me - it is one big pile of mud and most probably the Federation will raise war against Intaki (can you imagine any government agreeing to form a independent state inside their lands?).Most probably Caldari state will use it to make a full power offense on Federation - a blitzkrieg - if I may say so, reasoning it by helping Intaki. And you know what happens then? Massive holocaust against Intaki - Federation will need to prove a point. It will be total state of war and only winners here can be either Amarrs or Minmatars ( and we all know which ones will use it).

My point wasn't about Intaki staying in Federation - it is about chances of survival and the target's you acknowledge for your nation. You don't want to be a part of federation? Ok, good - but will you really survive alone? And if you will have an ally - do you really think they will be much better than Federation?

I agree on your will for freedom, but you've got to ask yourselves - is it the best moment? The best situation? And the best question - will your children and grandchildren support this decision?

I am against two things here -
1. ILFs, because I just don't like separatists - it's just a matter of time, before they become more aggressive and be called terrorists.
2. Naiveness of people all around. It looks like everybody flies into low-secs by themselves thinking nothing will happen. Same here - each decision (especially political and geographical) has major consequences, sometimes even larger than decision by itself. I'm just asking you to think before jumping into something like this.



Megrim
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.03.31 14:54:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Robert Kesada
Originally by: Sah Phyre

How exactly do you see the Amarr Empire as any sort of threat to Intaki, considering that events you mentioned happened hundreds of years ago (not to mention that of all people you should be the ones aware of dangers of gunboat diplomacy) and that Intaki is a bit too far away from the Empire, not to mention surrounded by Federation systems on all sides?

You're grasping at straws here. If anything's a threat to independent Intaki home system, it's your Federation with its self-righteous agenda.



I am against two things here -
1. ILFs, because I just don't like separatists - it's just a matter of time, before they become more aggressive and be called terrorists.



I think it prudent to point out that opinions within the ILF, at least in my experience, are quite varied. Our members are united by a desire to see conditions for the Intaki people and system improved. Intaki self-governance has always been part of the agenda, obviously, but corp policy has never advocated violence or force as a means of gaining any measure of independance.

We are not a group of radical, blinkered terrorists, rather, we are concerned pilots seeking a better life for our people and home system. I consider myself to be quite conservative when it comes to ideas of 'Intaki liberation', and since joining the ILF I have heard nothing I would consider outlandish or radical.

Kurokawa Makoto
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:03:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Kurokawa Makoto on 31/03/2009 15:07:13
Edited by: Kurokawa Makoto on 31/03/2009 15:03:34

Robert Kesada
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:04:00 - [58]
 

And what will happen if in 10 - 20 - 50 -100 years nothing will change do you believe that your "brothers and sisters" won't decide to use more critical and dramatical ways of persuading? I'm saying that because it always has happened - when nobody listens to a group of people with one passion, they grow tired and start using radical means.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2009.03.31 17:08:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 31/03/2009 17:38:09
Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 31/03/2009 17:12:11
Mr. Kesada,

To answer your question: I plan for the future, but I cannot predict it. I have been actively working toward the goal of Intaki sovereignty for more than two years now. To date, my corp remains small, but we are active, organized and poised to grow.

We have NEVER advocated violent revolution (although we will defend ourselves and our allies against aggression) and we will never consider violence as a means to withdraw from the Federation. I've been called a fool and dreamer, but I'm enough of a realist to realize that we could not hope to defeat the Federation Navy should the powers that be choose to bring its full weight to bear against us.

Likewise, I understand that should the Amarr wish to conquer the Intaki System they could. But they would have to fly their war fleet through the Federation to get here and I don't think that would go over very well. As I alluded earlier, the Caldari have proven that they can take Intaki. However, for the time being, the occupational forces seem to have about as much interest in maintaining the overall operation of the system as the Federation (i.e. none what-so-ever).

In the long histories of humanity, there are examples of city-states existing autonomously whilst completely surrounded by another sovereignty. What need be understood is the fundamental difference between separatism and isolationism. The issue at hand is one of quality of life and the equitable distribution of taxes.

Under the current Federation policy (which was adopted some five generations ago, is long-outdated and sorely in need of up-dating) the Intaki system is left to manage its defenses. However, tax revenue from all transactions in Intaki goes to Villore for the Federation Senate to mete out.

Without income from those taxes, Intaki cannot fund its own Navy and therefore has no defense against the pirates that roam low security regions. With piracy running rampant, the flow of goods and the people to buy them is choked off and the economy is stifled.

The ILF and a number of other like-minded corporations are serving as a stop-gap, using our own resources to provide some degree of protection and to stimulate the local economy. In fact, even Andreus Ixiris has benefited from this, as I can now count him as among my list of customers.

But sales in Intaki are slow and the cost of fighting pirates is high. With the sovereignty to levy its own taxes, Intaki could arm its own Navy and provide for its own defense. Self-determination and self-rule would allow the Intaki to raise themselves up.

However, I -- and the other pilots of the ILF -- do not favor using this self-rule toward an antagonistic relation with the Federation. A vibrant Intaki would be a great trading partner with the Federation and vice versa. In fact, a strong Intaki would be an ally for discouraging piracy in a large portion of the Placid Region, all at no cost to the Federation Navy.

If those who cling to their federalist dogma could take a moment to step back and look at the possibilities, I believe they would see that a sovereign Intaki is a good thing for not only the Intaki people, but for everyone involved.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.31 17:33:00 - [60]
 

Sir Hawke, you dream a fine dream. It is no insult to call you a dreamer, for without dreamers how could humanity advance? To think beyond the likely, to the improbable and formerly impossible, your kind are needed.

I just wish I could share it.


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