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sitar seaton
Posted - 2009.03.28 02:34:00 - [1]
 

I too was disappointed with the breaking of exploration. It was a nice career path that had pluses and minuses, like all paths. The current system is to explorers what making unlimited copy and me and te lines in empire installations would do to the research field. It opens the field up to the masses since research poses would become unnecessary.

However, there is a simple solution to this: Increase the signal strength of wormholes and decrease the signal strength of everything else.

The increase for wormholes should be high enough that an explorer in a bonus ship with decent skills should be able to identify them as wormholes with 1 probe at max range.

The decreases should be low enough so that, say, half the other sites are undetectable without a bonus ship.

This minor change would allow the masses to find and play with wormholes and taste exploration while rejuvinating exploration as a career choice.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.28 02:46:00 - [2]
 

just change wh to something that isnt unknown, or even give them their own scan group

gravitational anomaly or something would be good.

Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2009.03.28 03:22:00 - [3]
 

So, you got competition? It's PvP everywhere..on the market, in the belts..and now: exploration.

With your superior skills you will be able to find the sites faster anyways. With bad equipment and skills, a new explorer will not be able to even scan down the good sites with low signal strength. Go to low sec or 0.0. Less competition and a challenge to a seasoned explorer like you.

What you suggest is like a miner saying: I have a hulk. Only I should be able to mine all roids in empire. Newbs should only be allowed to mine [insert low value ore here].

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.28 03:22:00 - [4]
 

uhh, why?

Wormhole space is wormhole space. It's not just "Normal space that has special gates, and sleeper NPCs". It's supposed to be time-consuming if you "get lost".


Being able to identify them with one probe at 32 AU would be monstrously stupid. Don't go into wormhole space if you're not prepared to be there for at least a little bit. ****, it's not even THAT HARD to scan yourself out. A decent explorer shouldn't take -that- long to find an escape.

sitar seaton
Posted - 2009.03.28 03:50:00 - [5]
 

What I am suggesting is not to give a warp to with 1 probe, just an id as a wormhole. Also this would only be possible with good skills and a bonus ship.

Argendta
Posted - 2009.03.28 05:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: sitar seaton
What I am suggesting is not to give a warp to with 1 probe, just an id as a wormhole. Also this would only be possible with good skills and a bonus ship.


Oh, come on. Once you know what signal you want to scan, scanning it down takes less than 3 minutes. So what you are asking for is a "make it easy" button. It works as intended.

Don Genaro
Posted - 2009.03.28 18:15:00 - [7]
 

For those of you having a hard time understanding the well trained explorers point of view:

Once upon a time we were all nooblets trying to decide what to train.

Lots of people said "woohoo! DPS! Guns! Tank! Explosions! WIN!"

You put tons of training time into combat skills. This gives you an advantage in the game as it should in those areas.

Some of us said "Hmm.. exploration looks interesting.. although it will greatly reduce my available skillpoints for blowing stuff up, I'd like to invest the required huge amounts of training to be able to make a living as an explorer."

We all know eve is a game of specialization- I've got 60 mil SP but can't even use T2 medium guns yet. I've got 17 mil SP in science.. and I was fine with the fact that I was weaker in combat because I had the advantages of having trained up those exploration/ research related skills.

Look at things now. All of a sudden any chimp with a scanner can do what many of us sacrificed to be able to do. This isn't a whine- I've been in EVE for almost 5 years and I've got no problem with adapting. But the people that trained to be able to do something have a right to complain when the advantage they invested in no longer exists.

Now the guy who said "screw science skills they look boring and stupid" is being richly rewarded. He's got his 15 mil sp in gunnery, and the fact that he has jack squat invested in scanning skills means nothing.

It is what it is, and we'll all adapt. I still love the game and will keep playing.. but there is no doubt exploration has been completely trashed. They simultaneously made it tedious and so easy a 5-year-old could do it.

To all you people saying "hey I love the new system!"....

Of course you do! It requires no investment and it is about as complicated as putting on a pair of socks.

Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.03.28 18:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
just change wh to something that isnt unknown


I like this idea although i dont think it will solve any underlying problems except for making it easier to find new WHs while in w-space.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:08:00 - [9]
 


Quote:
Look at things now. All of a sudden any chimp with a scanner can do what many of us sacrificed to be able to do. This isn't a whine- I've been in EVE for almost 5 years and I've got no problem with adapting. But the people that trained to be able to do something have a right to complain when the advantage they invested in no longer exists.


Probing stuff out without a dedicated scan ship/good scan skills is a *****. With my rigged covops and all related skills at IV or V with faction probes and a faction launcher, I can scan down multiple sites incredibly fast...much faster than anyone I've talked to without such skills.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:16:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Probing stuff out without a dedicated scan ship/good scan skills is a *****. With my rigged covops and all related skills at IV or V with faction probes and a faction launcher, I can scan down multiple sites incredibly fast...much faster than anyone I've talked to without such skills.
Exactly right.

Anybody who says that all their skill points and hardware investment was wasted, simply hasn't done the comparison. Probing with minimal skills is much much much slower and harder than probing with a skilled character.

Don Genaro
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Don Genaro on 28/03/2009 19:49:50
Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Quote:
Look at things now. All of a sudden any chimp with a scanner can do what many of us sacrificed to be able to do. This isn't a whine- I've been in EVE for almost 5 years and I've got no problem with adapting. But the people that trained to be able to do something have a right to complain when the advantage they invested in no longer exists.


Probing stuff out without a dedicated scan ship/good scan skills is a *****. With my rigged covops and all related skills at IV or V with faction probes and a faction launcher, I can scan down multiple sites incredibly fast...much faster than anyone I've talked to without such skills.


Edit: You can't type C-O-C-K-T-A-I-L FFS? I love a good shrimp cocktail. Have a martini during cocktail hour. My rooster says ****-a-doodle-doo. I like to **** my pistol before I fire it. When I play badminton I always use a shuttle****. My good friend is named Henry Bab****. ****!

I've got an alt that had zero scanning skills. I took a couple of days to train him up and I found that maybe 2-3% of the sigs I've found (mostly the old base 4 arcsal/ hacking plexes in 0.0) he just isn't able to nail down because of signal strength. Anything else takes under 15 minutes to scan. Most things are under 5 minutes.

So you are talking about a difference of minutes and a tiny percentage of available sites that are opened up by many months of training. Scanning the really hard sigs before was barely tolerable when you had your scan time under 90 seconds... so the people with scan times of 4 or 5 minutes would NEVER go after them. Exploration took some commitment, and as a result it was fun and rewarding.

Regardless of all the "dumbing down" issues with exploration, the new system just plain isn't fun. Yes you move probes around, but it is an obvious and repetetive process with an awkward interface. It's kind of like combing your hair with a cocktail fork- obvious busywork with no mystery in the process.

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Marlenus

Anybody who says that all their skill points and hardware investment was wasted, simply hasn't done the comparison. Probing with minimal skills is much much much slower and harder than probing with a skilled character.


I did. My alt with Astro and Triangulation on 1 needs (sometimes) one cycle of scanner more then specialized main to pin dow the site. Means 10-15 seconds more.
Yes, sites with low signal exist. I found maybe 3-4 such sites after patch, so it is like 1-2% of plexes.
So, exploration is not a profession anymore. We are screwed and our skillpoints, experience and, mainly, playstyle are thrashed.

EVE after each patch become easier game and people are happy about it. Sorry, I don't understand it.

Kva Plexcha
Gallente
Doing You Right
Posted - 2009.03.28 22:23:00 - [13]
 

I am a dedicated explorer. Now I know how the inty pilots felt. However, I actually like the new system. I just wish the discrepancy between a new explorer and a skilled one was slightly more obvious.

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:11:00 - [14]
 

I am exploring strictly in lowsec and sometimes 0.0 (not interested for wormholes) and haven't sit in my rigged cov ops with sisters probe launcher ever since I've found out that I can do the same in cruiser or BC with that cheap basic launcher fitted. I also trained an alt only for a couple of days -for testing purposes- and again I was able to nail down vast majority of profession sites... in destroyer. Sure it takes some more time but we are talking about minutes here. This is so wrong. Now high skills and expensive equipment mean almost nothing.

I agree that probably best solution for this quite ridiculous situation is decreasing signal strenght for all sites except the wormholes. Now we have totally ruined exploration as nice niche mini-profession only because CCP wanted to grant everyone easy access to WH space. So I say - fine CCP, give them wormholes but ffs keep exploration alive!


explodinator
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:24:00 - [15]
 

Has there been a noticable market impact yet?

explodinator
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:54:00 - [16]
 

Wow, never mind, the supply is way up! Corelum c-type items are way cheaper than they were a week ago.

Of course, I'm one of the people that only started exploration after that patch hit :p

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.29 05:20:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Sure it takes some more time but we are talking about minutes here


made up for by the fact that you need to scan down far more sites to even see what they are.

Don Genaro
Posted - 2009.03.29 05:55:00 - [18]
 

Man, after another night of trying to enjoy this...

Exploration was the most fun I had in 5 years. Now it is just tedious crap.

I guess this was how the nano pilots felt after the speed nerf.

This blows. I guess simplification for the masses = profit for CCP.

RO7KIOR
Minmatar
DEEP SPACE RESERCH.
Posted - 2009.03.29 11:11:00 - [19]
 

I have an alt who's new to scanning and a main whos done it for ages and have to say the difference pre patch of them finding stuff was vastly diffrent. Now its closer there is still a time difference but its no way near what it was.

I think that wormholes should maybe even have their own probe type or the strengths should be played with as wormholes due to the fact that they are after all rather large should be easy to find. But the rest should be harder unless you have the right level of skills, equipment and investment.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.29 18:20:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
This blows. I guess simplification for the masses = profit for CCP.


Hold a second. Before you try to make an argument that dropping quest probes at planets and mashing the "scan" button for an hour is more complex than the current system, let me go get some popcorn.




To the rest of you: you're ignoring the fact that you cannot know what you're scanning down. The difference of minutes per site adds up when you have to scan down 6 sites to find what it is you want.

bnogo
Caldari
The Executives
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.30 10:31:00 - [21]
 

yes its easier, and thank god it is. i have had all scanning skills to 4 for a long time now, and scanning in the past was ungodly stupid. had all the rigs and ships and faction mods and it literally took my over 7 hours to scan down a 10/10 plex in 0.0. at what point does that sound fun?

what ccp did was removed the dice roll aspect. there is very little in eve that is based on chance. in fact all i know of is jamming and the old scan system. how many times did you run a basic scan 3 times to make sure that there was actually nothing in your probes range?

nevermind the number of books i read while waiting to scan. it took to long to scan, and it created afkers. at least now its interactive, removed the diceroll aspect.

now i haven't had a chance to scan much in 0.0 much lately, but the only real change i can see that should be done are new profession sites in 0.0. increase their difficulty to scan down so all the old dedicated people will stop *****ing and moaning and increase the rewards so its actually really profitable again.

all in all, it could stay the same as is and i could care less.

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2009.03.30 17:15:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tierius Fro on 30/03/2009 17:15:28
I support the idea of increasing sig strength for wormholes and decreasing the strength for radar/mag/ladar/grav sites. Anyone can find a wormhole and work the cosmic anomalies, but you've got to have some skills to pinpoint the rest.

explodinator
Posted - 2009.03.30 17:27:00 - [23]
 

Sounds like a great, and simple solution

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.30 17:44:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tierius Fro
Edited by: Tierius Fro on 30/03/2009 17:15:28
I support the idea of increasing sig strength for wormholes and decreasing the strength for radar/mag/ladar/grav sites. Anyone can find a wormhole and work the cosmic anomalies, but you've got to have some skills to pinpoint the rest.


Removing all challenge to getting around wormhole space.

No.

Kebast
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:09:00 - [25]
 

I'm a big fan of the new scanning system so far. The old method of popping probes, clicking scan and waiting 2 min just to do it again was beyond annoying.
The only change I'd like is a filter to remove sites I have determined the type of. This is only an issue in wormholes, as normal systems don't have enough signatures to cause a problem.
For example, I pop some probes and scan at 32au. I get 15-20 sigs. I find a group of sigs and scan down 3-4 so that I get a good enough hit to find out the type. I want then to be able to go back to a 32au scan and be able to filter out those sites I found. Sure, I could scan each one too 100 percent and warp to them so it shows the site on the map. Then figure out which hit with the 32au probe matches up with the previously scanned sites, but that is damn annoying in a system with a large number of sites.

Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:13:00 - [26]
 

I'm quite content with the current system myself. My only regret is that we don't have more really skilled scanners in the colony.

I find the difference between a skilled scanner and an un-skilled one is huge. Also huge is the difference between using the right gear and the wrong gear.

A survey squad with the right ships, skilled PCs, and players who are skilled at the new system can blow through a WH chain in seriously good order. Especially if their squad commander splits up scanning well.

A squad with non-specialists in un-specialized ships can take forever to scan down a chain. And will probably miss WH on the way resulting in a dead end that stops shy of k-space. They'll also miss the tasty exploration sites. And to get the ladar and grav sites they'll take forever. Not even a talented survey commander can overcome it.

So yeah, I like the new system.

But even if I didn't I'd just be asking for cheese with my whine.....

*Gaius has Kahega's back on this, but I'll totally have my fleet shoot you out of the sky if you appear in Bad Monkey and don't say "hi" to me, been wanting to meet you since you founded Suddenly Ninjas*

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2009.03.30 18:32:00 - [27]
 

Wormholes stand out from other signatures anyway because they have a much stronger signal. If you've got a bunch of signals of 2% at 4AU, and a 2% at 20AU, you know the 20AU one is probably a wormhole.

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.30 19:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Probing stuff out without a dedicated scan ship/good scan skills is a *****. With my rigged covops and all related skills at IV or V with faction probes and a faction launcher, I can scan down multiple sites incredibly fast...much faster than anyone I've talked to without such skills.

If might ask, how much faster? My alt was out scanning this weekend in hisec; in general he was able to scan down each hit in about 7 minutes in an assault frigate, and with mediocre skills. I believe you're faster, but 7 minutes per hit, when the actual process is primarily dependent on an easy-to-master player skill set, seems very reasonable.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2009.03.30 19:46:00 - [29]
 

aye, 7 minutes extra per hit is marginal when a fully specced explorer would be lucky to scan anything in 7 minutes with the old system.



Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.03.30 19:51:00 - [30]
 

A character with minimal skills and a core probe launcher on a combat ship will struggle seperating the sites.

In a covop on my alt with decent(though not maxed out) skills I can seperate sites and scan down entire systems properly within a reasonable timeframe and without too much hazzle.


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