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Ig Neus
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:42:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris
Originally by: Kingwood


Bull. Please show me your Zealot which puts out "almost BS dps". You can't, because it's not possible. The only ship capable of putting out near BS-Dps is a gank-fit Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and 3x Heat Sinks.



Quick check.

Gank fit (3 x heatsink) Zealot: about 500dps
Pulsegeddon with single heatsink: about 560dps

That is 'about' BS dps. And please, don't try the 'yeah, but no tank' yadda yadda, thats hardly germaine to your arguement.



Please tell me you are joking... Gank Zealot with 3 Heatsinks does 573 DPS, Gank Geddon with 3 Heatsinks does 1172 DPS. So no, Zealot does not BS level DPS. If you want a HAC that can get close to BS level DPS Deimos is your best bet, with something close to 800.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:48:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ig Neus
Originally by: Aegis Osiris
Originally by: Kingwood


Bull. Please show me your Zealot which puts out "almost BS dps". You can't, because it's not possible. The only ship capable of putting out near BS-Dps is a gank-fit Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and 3x Heat Sinks.



Quick check.

Gank fit (3 x heatsink) Zealot: about 500dps
Pulsegeddon with single heatsink: about 560dps

That is 'about' BS dps. And please, don't try the 'yeah, but no tank' yadda yadda, thats hardly germaine to your arguement.



Please tell me you are joking... Gank Zealot with 3 Heatsinks does 573 DPS, Gank Geddon with 3 Heatsinks does 1172 DPS. So no, Zealot does not BS level DPS. If you want a HAC that can get close to BS level DPS Deimos is your best bet, with something close to 800.

He said BS-level DPS, not max-skilled, full-gank, max-damage BS.

My Zealot does just over 600 dps with multifrequency, though I'll concede that isn't quite BS-level DPS. More like BC-class.

Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:50:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris
Originally by: Kingwood


Bull. Please show me your Zealot which puts out "almost BS dps". You can't, because it's not possible. The only ship capable of putting out near BS-Dps is a gank-fit Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and 3x Heat Sinks.



Quick check.

Gank fit (3 x heatsink) Zealot: about 500dps
Pulsegeddon with single heatsink: about 560dps

That is 'about' BS dps. And please, don't try the 'yeah, but no tank' yadda yadda, thats hardly germaine to your arguement.



yeah and if I put 7 officer heatsink and faction heavy pulse lasers on my zealot with darkblood multifrequenty I outdamage a geddon fitted with civilian railguns !

Rolling Eyes

Ig Neus
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:59:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

He said BS-level DPS, not max-skilled, full-gank, max-damage BS.

My Zealot does just over 600 dps with multifrequency, though I'll concede that isn't quite BS-level DPS. More like BC-class.


Well, the reality is that most PvP Battleships are fitted for Gank. But even if we take some more balanced setups (like a Dual LAR Electron Hyperion without Mag Stabs), it still does almost 900 DPS. A Blaster Rokh does ~1k DPS as well.

Of course all those numbers are with skills at V. Still the DPS of a Zealot with 3 Heatsinks, using Pulses with Navy Multifrequency, is 573 with all at V. The difference is pretty huge since normal DPS of close/medium range Battleships is 850-1200.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:00:00 - [35]
 

Be very careful when comparing cruiser and BS weaponry, the actual damage dealt is entirely dependant on the target size and speed.

Tracking and signature resolution on the big guns makes hitting moving cruisers and smaller difficult, you'll hit but hit-quality will be low. In these cases a Zealot will out damage a BS by a healthy margin.
-------------------------------------------------
As for the original post, what exactly is it you want to say? Too few laser damage/rof bonus ships in game or too many?

Being an Amarr aficionado I do not feel there is a discrepancy, all the ship classes have variety which is part of what makes Amarr strong, helps circumvent the EM/Therm focus of lasers.
Since all the hulls have oversized capacitors to use lasers, they are actually even stronger regardless of weapon type chosen when active tanked. Damage bonus is not needed when you can outlast you enemy (Bleeder Punisher ring a bell?)Twisted Evil

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:10:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Terianna Eri on 29/03/2009 20:15:18
Originally by: Ig Neus
Of course all those numbers are with skills at V. Still the DPS of a Zealot with 3 Heatsinks, using Pulses with Navy Multifrequency, is 573 with all at V. The difference is pretty huge since normal DPS of close/medium range Battleships is 850-1200.

570 is KINDA close to 850... D:

The Harbinger is really a lot better to make those comparisons with; Kessah's thread about it had an 850 DPS fit where people were making the same comparisons - full gank BC on par with a tanky BS.

But yeah.. gank Zealot DPS is high (I think it's the 2nd highest DPS HAC? behind the Deimos of course) but it's really encroaching on BC (and not even full-tank BC) dps, not BS dps.

I don't actually have a point... Embarassed

Originally by: Holy Lowlander
yeah and if I put 7 officer heatsink and faction heavy pulse lasers on my zealot with darkblood multifrequenty I outdamage a geddon fitted with civilian railguns !

Zealot with 3 officer heatsinks, T2 RoF rig, max skills, 7% RoF,5% damage implants, and DB multifreq breaks 800 dps, interestingly enough :P

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:24:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris

Quick check.

Gank fit (3 x heatsink) Zealot: about 500dps
Pulsegeddon with single heatsink: about 560dps

That is 'about' BS dps. And please, don't try the 'yeah, but no tank' yadda yadda, thats hardly germaine to your arguement.



Awesome. You should fit the geddon with Civilian Pulse lasers too, because then it gets totally outperformed by the Zealot and you have definitely proven your point.

You're kidding, right?

Standard Geddon fit is with 2x HS, sometimes 3x and Ogre IIs. With that it comes pretty close to 1000 DPS. The Zealot does not do 550 DPS, because it needs Scorch. A Zealot fighting at close range is a dead Zealot (I've been there). A max-skilled Zealot with Scorch and 3x HS puts out a bit over 450 DPS. Tell me again how that is close to the DPS of a properly fit Geddon?

Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:25:00 - [38]
 

*shakes head*

You EFT warriors need to quit using the 'all lvl 5' setting. Seriously. Because you are doing nothing but completely fooling yourselves.

The numbers I put up are for a gankzealot and a RR geddon using my personal skills (considerable, thanks). Its a justifiable comparison; RR BS's form the cores of any number of fleets, and a zealot as support in such a situation can often be gank fitted.

I'm not talking about your pie in the sky numbers, or comparable setups as far as numbers of heatsink. Foolish comparison. I'm talking about situation where the ships can actually be USED.

Stop flying your missions and go shoot something now and then, and maybe you'll see the difference. EFT is, at best, a loose guide, and the 'all lvl 5' option for the lazy.

(ps. just for you addicts, at that silly level the gankfit zealot does 573, the geddon does 636. STILL comparable).


Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:29:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Kingwood on 29/03/2009 20:29:05
Originally by: Aegis Osiris
bla bla bla




I have all level 5 skills for the Zealot, thank you very much. Zealot gets gank-fit, as gets the Geddon. A Geddon doing your stated "636 DPS" is a fail-fit. Stop spouting nonsense.

Edit: spelling

Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:30:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Kingwood
The Zealot does not do 550 DPS, because it needs Scorch.


This is, at least, a valid point. Scorch is of course more widely used, and the damage in raw dps will be less.

But how about his arguement.....against your average cruiser hull or lower, a Zealot with scorch is likely just as deadly as a Geddon with MF (average situation, of course).

As others have mentioned, such comparisons are situational. Raw dps totals are pretty useless, which was the point I was trying to show.

Its enough to say that Amarr have some excellent laser using hulls in cruiser-bc-bs hulls.

Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:32:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Aegis Osiris on 29/03/2009 20:34:09
Originally by: Kingwood
Edited by: Kingwood on 29/03/2009 20:29:05
Originally by: Aegis Osiris
bla bla bla




I have all level 5 skills for the Zealot, thank you very much. Zealot gets gank-fit, as gets the Geddon. A Geddon doing your stated "636 DPS" is a fail-fit. Stop spouting nonsense.

And if you are fitting your HAC's the same way you fit a BS, then your level of fail reaches epic proportions.

Edit: spelling


Your a fool. A gang of RR BS's easily crushes a same size gang of gank fitted ones. If you can't see that, then I can't help your delusions.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:34:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Kingwood on 29/03/2009 20:37:32
Edited by: Kingwood on 29/03/2009 20:35:42
Originally by: Aegis Osiris
stuff


EFT numbers are useless, correct. But my point still stands, the Zealot does not do damage comparable to a BS. That's all I was trying to say in this thread, because the original statement I was referring to was quite misleading.

Also, regarding your statement that a gank-fit Zealot can operate in fleets with RR BSs. In those situations it definitely will not use AN MF but either Scorch or Aurora when sniping.

Edit:
Originally by: Aegis Osiris

Your a fool. A gang of RR BS's easily crushes a same size gang of gank fitted ones. If you can't see that, then I can't help your delusions.


Oh really? A RR geddon can still be gank-fit. I don't see your point, tbh.

"And if you are fitting your HAC's the same way you fit a BS, then your level of fail reaches epic proportions."

Not my statement. No idea why he put that as quoted from me.

Traderboz
SlaveMart
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:11:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris
*shakes head*

You EFT warriors need to quit using the 'all lvl 5' setting. Seriously. Because you are doing nothing but completely fooling yourselves.

The numbers I put up are for a gankzealot and a RR geddon using my personal skills (considerable, thanks). Its a justifiable comparison; RR BS's form the cores of any number of fleets, and a zealot as support in such a situation can often be gank fitted.

I'm not talking about your pie in the sky numbers, or comparable setups as far as numbers of heatsink. Foolish comparison. I'm talking about situation where the ships can actually be USED.

Stop flying your missions and go shoot something now and then, and maybe you'll see the difference. EFT is, at best, a loose guide, and the 'all lvl 5' option for the lazy.

(ps. just for you addicts, at that silly level the gankfit zealot does 573, the geddon does 636. STILL comparable).




Aside from specs being at 4 (for both guns and weapons), instead of 5, my skills are maxxed for both of those. I was using ALL V when mapping out the fit, but it would actually deal more damage if I used my real skills due to implants. Razz Just because EFT doesn't show everything (who says it does?) doesn't mean that your point is valid simply because you didn't use EFT, lol. That's ridiculous.

Some people have made some decent points - better tracking on the medium sized guns, better range on the BS guns, ability to RR with BS, etc. It's not simply a cut and dry comparison of DPS as to which ship is "better" (it never is), but that doesn't mean they deal equal theoretical DPS.

Even on a remote rep setup, it's not hard to get 2 or maybe even 3 heat sinks on the geddon, and then drones add a nice chunk of DPS on top of that. If the best you can get out of a Geddon is 600 DPS, either your fit blows or your skills blow. Sounds to me that your skills blow, since you're so defensive about people using All V, lol.

Ig Neus
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:19:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Ig Neus on 29/03/2009 21:19:41
Originally by: Aegis Osiris
*shakes head*

You EFT warriors need to quit using the 'all lvl 5' setting. Seriously. Because you are doing nothing but completely fooling yourselves.

The numbers I put up are for a gankzealot and a RR geddon using my personal skills (considerable, thanks). Its a justifiable comparison; RR BS's form the cores of any number of fleets, and a zealot as support in such a situation can often be gank fitted.

I'm not talking about your pie in the sky numbers, or comparable setups as far as numbers of heatsink. Foolish comparison. I'm talking about situation where the ships can actually be USED.

Stop flying your missions and go shoot something now and then, and maybe you'll see the difference. EFT is, at best, a loose guide, and the 'all lvl 5' option for the lazy.

(ps. just for you addicts, at that silly level the gankfit zealot does 573, the geddon does 636. STILL comparable).




Have not done missions for quite some time and I do not use my Battleship to remote rep. I log an -out of corp- alt in a Geddon for that.

Anyway, no matter how you look at it, the things you are saying make no sense. So a Zealot fit for maximum damage can do comparable damage to a Geddon fit for other things? That is impressive! What is next, compare its damage with that of a Falcon (since by your logic it is also used in many fleets)?

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:22:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 29/03/2009 21:27:18
There is no point using Amarr Navy Multifrequency (AN MF) to calculate DPS for a Zealot. The whole point of using pulse lasers on the ship is to take advantage of the range provided by Scorch to avoid being tackled and damaged. This is even more important if you gank fit it as it will tank very poorly.

The reason people compare numbers with 'all skills at lvl 5' is usually not because they're EFT warriors (although they might be). It's because it provides a level playing field with which you can easily make comparisons. You could just as easily make comparisons using 'all skills at lvl 4' if EFT provided those numbers. This would actually be more realistic as players are more likely to have skills at lvl 4.

A geddon has 8 lowslots. Even if you fit it with 3x 1600mm plate and also include an EANM (or ANM) and a DC that still leaves space for 3x Heat Sinks. This is the most common setup that I've seen.

Additionally, unlike the Zealot, an RR fitted geddon prefers to get as close as possible to the target so it can switch to using AN MF as this is it's optimal range.

In conclusion, even if you ignore additional dps provided by the geddon's heavy drones, it easily outdamages the Zealot. When they're both at their optimal ranges the DPS is not comparable.

A gank fitted, passive shield tanked Harbinger has to operate just like a Zealot (i.e. use Scorch) as it's tank is very weak at close range. If you armor tank it so that it can go close range and use AN MF then you give up DPS (by swapping down from Heavy to Focused Pulses) to be able to fit the tank and it's no longer comparable to the geddon in DPS.

Regardless of how you fit them, neither the Zealot not the Harbinger can effecively remote-rep or be remote-repped so comparing them with an RR geddon doesn't make sense anyway as the geddon is much happier getting into close range and staying there for longer. It's not just about DPS.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.29 22:17:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris
You EFT warriors need to quit using the 'all lvl 5' setting. Seriously. Because you are doing nothing but completely fooling yourselves...

Some of us actually do have maxed (or very nearly maxed, just have spec V left to train) skills, just fyi.
We do comparisons with level V skills (and in general, T2 fit) because it shows the maximum capability a ship is likely to attain, and in most cases you're very likely to be flying against someone with maxed, or very nearly maxed (to within a few %) skills. It's also very convenient.

The comparisons are not as useless as you would like to think.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.03.30 00:36:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tykkis


Really Omen?

Imo Omen is kinda disapointing. It's tight on cap and very very tight on grid and it's stats are quite bad... Only thing it has better than thorax and rupture is pulse scorch range.

comparing omen to rupture and thorax:
it has worst dps, tank(both shield and armor), tracking(technically, but good at above 10km), scan resolution, dronebay, capacitor.

average speed, agility, sensor strength.

best range, cargohold and maximum targets.

imba 7 targets lock and sick 450m3 cargohold Very Happy guess you could fit 5*fmpII+MWD+booster... need perfect grid skills for those modules only.



Yup.

5x FMP II
MWD, LSE, SBII/Point/TC
HS,HS,HS/TE,Nano/TE(if 2 HS), Nano

Its not "omg awesome" but it doesn't need to be to be good at what it does.


Originally by: Panzram


on paper the rokh is a better sniper wrt both range and dps, however in sh*t lag hellhole of fleet warfare many pilots find their dps falling quickly when they use all the ammo in the rack and it takes 15 mins or more to reload if it ever does. Apoc/Geddon is also the lazy pilots BS of choice for semi-afk pos shooting.
I have not had reloading problems since stackless IO. I can see a problem of guns not firing and needing to be turned off, but that effects Apocs and Rokhs more or less equally[though advantages minmatar snipers]


Icarus Flame
Amarr
The Tuskers
Posted - 2009.03.30 03:12:00 - [48]
 

Wow, fail replies guys. How did this turn from a thread about Sub-BS laser ships to a thread about Zealot gank fits vs. Geddon damage.

The OP is perfectly correct. The problem is twofold. Firstly, small lasers are lolworthless. They don't have enough tracking to justify their use in Frigate 1v1's, and don't have enough range to really justify a Crusader over a Taranis or Crow. I would suggest boosting both the tracking and range of small lasers to put them on par with other small weapon systems and accentuate their flavor further. Make the base range like 8km, bring back the Crusader, and let the Punisher be a viable ship at kiting like the Rifter.

The second problem is the epic fail CCP put into designing the Amarr cruisers and battlecruisers. There are three really crappy ships: Maller, Omen, and Prophecy.
The Maller and Prophecy are just useless. Nothing they can do justifies their presence in a gang. They can't speed tank like the Punisher, and can't do damage like the Harbinger. Pathetic.
The Omen suffers from severe fitting issues compared to the Thorax and Rupture. It needs to at least be able to fit an 800mm plate and 5 FMP II's, and an MWD. There simply isn't enough power grid to do this, even with perfect fitting skills.

Don't try to confuse the situation by whinging about how overpowered lasers are on the Zealot and BSes. This is a discussion about small laser ships, which are significantly underpar as laser platforms.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.03.30 03:33:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Blane Xero on 30/03/2009 03:33:54
1200mm artillery have less optimal and tracking, yet a higher ROF than Tachyons. Thats one races smallest battleship sniper gun compared to the others biggest battleship sniper gun. Not to mention artillery need to reload every 20 shots (10 if you go for 1400mm's) wheras at most tachyons need to reload roughly once every 1-4k shots (cannot remember which it is for T2)

Edit; Also, Tachyons have a higher damage mod.


Boost Artilley, please.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.30 03:41:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Kingwood on 30/03/2009 03:42:58
Omen can fit 5x FMP and 800mm Tungsten with an RCU.

Puts out about 350 DPS, mids are MWD, Cap Recharger II and SB II. If you want to fit a WD II instead of the SB you need a 3% CPU implant. It's still paper thin. Good DPS support in gang, useless solo. Rupture and Thorax outperform it by a large margin.

Edit: MWD I, not II.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.03.30 04:10:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Icarus Flame
The problem is twofold. Firstly, small lasers are lolworthless. They don't have enough tracking to justify their use in Frigate 1v1's, and don't have enough range to really justify a Crusader over a Taranis or Crow.


Saders are fine, just because a ship does not do what you want it to does not mean it does not do what it should.

Executioners, Punishers, Mallers, and Prophecies are weak, only the Maller is significantly weaker than its counterparts. The Omen is fine.[even if i would rather have it be more of a mini-zealot and/or retribution model with the Maller performing similar to how the Omen does now.]

There is no overarching small laser problem and the ships that can be fixed are better to be fixed as part of a comprehensive rebalancing of many of the ships in the game.

Tykkis
Posted - 2009.03.30 04:57:00 - [52]
 

It's weird they managed to make zealot from the omen hull Shocked

Change to omen and/or maller:

Omen: To go with what zealot is and how omen is usually fit these days(HS, TE, Nano), ccp could...
-remove 1 max target
-remove launcher slot
-half the cargohold 450m3->225m3 (you got no grid or need for booster)
+replace rate of fire bonus with optimal bonus (helps cap too)
+increase speed to same as zealot
It would be weak on grid and generally weak but the stats would be much more focused. paper thin fleet sniper.

or just give it something around 250 grid and it becomes decent solo ship

Maller: ...the abaddon way. not the most genious ship but the amarr way Very Happy
replace cap use bonus with laser dmg(abaddon bonuses)
add 20 drone bandwidth and 20m3 dronebay


I might be way off with these...

ME3T SHI3LD
Posted - 2009.03.30 09:24:00 - [53]
 

There's no reason to fuss over small lasers, since this thread is about, sure the retribution can't point, but it will just about out damage any other af in a af fleet, this goes with the exception of a gyro fit wolf. In reality the fact that I can't point doesn't even matter unless there actually af solo gods out there that I don't know about.

As far as the crusader goes, it is most likely the best ceptor ingame, and should win any 1v1 if pilot'd by someone that knows what ther're doing. Pulse fit, you can do 2x, 2x OD and still push faster then what most ceptors go, and still do ranis dps. With Beam's, 2x CPR 2x OD, still have the speed, but you can push 16 km with lvl 5 Support skills, and Auroua, which you may laugh at because of tracking... you just orbit at 20 turn mwd on/off in burst and shoot, you will kill whatever ceptor is stuck trying to catch you.

Zealot is hard to fit, and has to pretty much be fit gank, sniper, or Dual MAR FHP fit. In my opinion the zealot is a horrible solo ship, but in gangs it is god either gank or snipe fit. It will be top damage most likely as blaster ships have to use time to get in range, when the zealots are still doing good dps at 30 km. If you want solo fly a sac..althouh there are a few people who can do it in the zealot.

I have yet to see the absolution mentioned in this thread, why not? It's a great gang ship, and can even solo. It can pull a 600-700 dps tank depending on fitting, and still does 500 or dps. This isn't better then other cs, but you have to look at the range factor. A gang of abso will kill a gang of blaster ships before they ever hit blaster range.

Since this thread is mainly about amarr laser ships vs missile ships, comes down to either learn and adapt since the laser side is infact perfectly fine, and I hope nothing changes.. except maybe a mid for retri. I didn't bother going into t1 ships since tbh the only t1 amarr ship I even fly anymore other then bs is a harbringer... which is the best bc in game. It can fit a 1600 plate, and do some more the impressive dps, it can solo, but dear god if there's a gang of 3-4 of harbs gank fit good luck, learned this when fw used to blob us with them, they can't put there hurt on, and have an amazing tank.

Yes my grammer sucks, as well as my spelling, rant.

Tl;Dr, The ships are fine, learn to adapt or train a different race.



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