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Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.03.26 23:55:00 - [1]
 

I've heard people say in-game that the new system seems like it has lowered rewards tables, fewer sites, and too many worm holes.

Yes, it does. The reason? The new exploration system sucks. A lot. Before Apocrypha, people had to train for at least a month to be able to actually explore, and train much, much longer to be halfway decent at it. Now? People can train for about 2 weeks and have the ability to use everything they'll need to explore: the whopping 2 (two!) types of probes, and the launchers required. Items that took old explorers months to train for decent usage. I hardly think that's fair.

Along with the terrible skill changes comes the new scan times... Are you serious?! 6 seconds! That's ridiculous! In Quantum Rise, you had to train literally for months to be able to scan in less than 2 minutes. Now? 6 seconds? This brings down all the long-time explorers to the same level as those who've been training for a week and a half. That's entirely unfair to the dedicated players.

Don't even start about the lack of sites. Why are there fewer sites now? The reason is that everyone in EVE can now be exploring in less than half a month. Of course it's going seem like fewer sites exist, since such a large number of new explorers came into being. That large of an increase will cause the demand to absolutely tower over the supply. The solution isn't to make more sites, either. What needs to happen is the old system (from Quantum Rise) needs to be put back in to place. Wormhole exploration shouldn't even be related to old exploration. Again, this is unfair to the older explorers, who were able to do their job with efficiency and relatively little interference.

Say nothing about lower rewards, because it took you all of what, 45 seconds to find a site?

Maybe this system is alright for wormholes since they're the 'new big thing', but regular exploration needs to get the hell back to what it was before.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.27 01:01:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/03/2009 01:02:30
Quote:
Yes, it does. The reason? The new exploration system sucks. A lot. Before Apocrypha, people had to train for at least a month to be able to actually explore, and train much, much longer to be halfway decent at it. Now? People can train for about 2 weeks and have the ability to use everything they'll need to explore: the whopping 2 (two!) types of probes, and the launchers required. Items that took old explorers months to train for decent usage. I hardly think that's fair.


So, rather than "You must train for months before you can do ****", it's not "You can do it pretty quickly, but training for months will let you do it better". Sounds good to me. As to "Fairness?" Whoopdeedoo. It will always be unfair somehow whenever CCP changes something, no matter what it is.

Quote:
Along with the terrible skill changes comes the new scan times... Are you serious?! 6 seconds! That's ridiculous! In Quantum Rise, you had to train literally for months to be able to scan in less than 2 minutes. Now? 6 seconds? This brings down all the long-time explorers to the same level as those who've been training for a week and a half. That's entirely unfair to the dedicated players.

Since you apparently didn't read the dev blog...effectiveness-wise,

Scan strength pre-apocrypha is about as useful as scan time is now

Scan time pre-apocrypha is about as effective as scan strength is now.

which is why the bonuses were switched. The long-time explorers get vastly improved scan strength.

Quote:
Don't even start about the lack of sites. Why are there fewer sites now? The reason is that everyone in EVE can now be exploring in less than half a month. Of course it's going seem like fewer sites exist, since such a large number of new explorers came into being. That large of an increase will cause the demand to absolutely tower over the supply. The solution isn't to make more sites, either. What needs to happen is the old system (from Quantum Rise) needs to be put back in to place. Wormhole exploration shouldn't even be related to old exploration. Again, this is unfair to the older explorers, who were able to do their job with efficiency and relatively little interference.


There are not fewer sites now. Firstly, 99% of the new explorers (And many of the old) only care about wormholes. Secondly, even if there WERE a ****ton of people doing the old plexes, it wouldn't matter because they INSTANTLY RESPAWN whenever they're completed! Unless of course you only scan near high-population areas in which case it's your own fault.

Today I found a system with one wormhole, three unknown sites, two magnetometrics, and two gravimetrics...not to mention that CCP added many more types of exploration sites.


Quote:
Say nothing about lower rewards, because it took you all of what, 45 seconds to find a site?


when you factor in all the time scanning empty systems and scanning down **** you don't care about, it's about the same


Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.03.27 01:20:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 27/03/2009 01:20:02
Originally by: Kahega Amielden

CCP added many more types of exploration sites.


Caught my attention. More information?

foobarx
Posted - 2009.03.27 01:29:00 - [4]
 

They already added more sites, and since so many people are exploring, the sites circulate much more quickly. I suspect the loot you find in radar and mag sites will become mostly worthless as it floods the market.

One thing I would like to see is a general decrease in accuracy, so easy sites would be hard if you didn't have any skills, and hard sites would be impossible. It's already a set up like that now, but it needs to be tuned a bit to be more difficult. I haven't stumbled across many sites a brand new character couldn't scan down almost as easily as my experienced explorer.

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.27 01:31:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: rubico1337 on 27/03/2009 01:32:02
Originally by: Kahega Amielden


So, rather than "You must train for months before you can do ****", it's not "You can do it pretty quickly, but training for months will let you do it better".




the system as it is now is not like this at all, sure you may save some time with maxed skills, but the performance increase due to skills is not almost flat, as in the previous system it was appropriate

now any alt with lvl 1 astrometrics in a t1 astrometrics frig can hunt down ANY site, sure it might take them a bit longer than someone who has specced for 2 months. do you think if you got minmattar frigate lvl 3 and small proj weapons lvl 1 you would do only slightly worse than someone who has specced for t2 guns and frig lvl 5? no, he would wipe the floor with you.

the ammount of skill training time does not give a good enough advantage, may my deep space probes rest in peace

foobarx
Posted - 2009.03.27 02:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
Edited by: rubico1337 on 27/03/2009 01:32:02
Originally by: Kahega Amielden


So, rather than "You must train for months before you can do ****", it's not "You can do it pretty quickly, but training for months will let you do it better".




the system as it is now is not like this at all, sure you may save some time with maxed skills, but the performance increase due to skills is not almost flat, as in the previous system it was appropriate

now any alt with lvl 1 astrometrics in a t1 astrometrics frig can hunt down ANY site, sure it might take them a bit longer than someone who has specced for 2 months. do you think if you got minmattar frigate lvl 3 and small proj weapons lvl 1 you would do only slightly worse than someone who has specced for t2 guns and frig lvl 5? no, he would wipe the floor with you.

the ammount of skill training time does not give a good enough advantage, may my deep space probes rest in peace


That's not strictly true. There are sites you cannot scan down without good skills and good ships. There just aren't very many of them. But your overall point is correct - for most sites there is no practical difference.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.27 02:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/03/2009 02:18:54
Quote:
Caught my attention. More information?


from the patch notes for Apocrypha

Quote:
# We have doubled the number of exploration sites in known space. Every aspect of exploration has received a boost including Booster manufacturing, hacking, archaeology and combat exploration sites. CCP Dropbear tells us more in his blog Getting High on Your Own Supply


From linked dev blog:

Quote:
# 8 New Hacking sites (4 Hisec, 4 Lowsec) across the five pirate factions makes 40 sites.
# 8 New Archaeology sites (4 Hisec, 4 Lowsec) across the five pirate factions takes that to 80 sites.
# 24 New Salvaging sites (split across all security status) across five pirate factions makes a total of 200 sites. These are a completely new type of exploration site.
# 12 New Anomaly sites (have a chance of a faction spawn) across five pirate factions adds another 60 sites for 260 total.
# 24 New Booster Sites (split across all security status)...284





And as far as it just taking more time to scan down sites...so? That's exactly how it was before. With good skills and a good ship, I can scan down individual sites really pretty rapidly. Yeah, someone with **** skills would be able to do the same thing,l but it would take him much longer. Given that you will need to spend a lot of time scanning to find the type of site you want..

Ancallan
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2009.03.27 03:27:00 - [8]
 

The old system was neither skill intensive or complicated.

You could perform adequately at exploration with 165,909 skillpoints. That is hardly months of training. If you wanted to be -great- at exploring? It'd take longer... that's how it works.

The new system is more intuitive, yes. This accessibility makes it easier for others to get involved. It is just one path that one can take in EVE and like any other, can be rewarding. The craze will die down.

I've not noticed a lack of sites, however. In fact, there seems to be enough to keep me busy 100% of the time I'm logged in.

Lower rewards? I won't go into my personal figures of what I'm making off of exploration alone, but suffice to say you're probably having bad luck. :)

The people who put in months of training before are still going to reap the rewards of their training at a noticable advantage to those who have only just started.

Guer
Posted - 2009.03.27 03:42:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ancallan
The old system was neither skill intensive or complicated.

You could technically perform exploration with 165,909 skillpoints. That is hardly months of training. If you wanted to be -great- at exploring? It'd take longer... that's how it works.





fixed

Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.03.27 05:49:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ancallan
The old system was neither skill intensive or complicated.


Um... yeah, actually it was. Far more than the current system.

Ancallan
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2009.03.27 07:47:00 - [11]
 

No.

It just seemed more complicated. That's why it was not so popular. Before Apocrypha, people also didn't have any idea about Exploration's potential. I've even seen several people argue it was largely useless.

Apocrypha made it more accessible and brought to light some of the benefits of exploration. The intricate nature still exists. If you're having problems grasping the complexity of it, feel free to send me an EVE Mail and I can help you understand it better. :)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.03.27 08:24:00 - [12]
 

Quote:

People can train for about 2 weeks and have the ability to use everything they'll need to explore: the whopping 2 (two!) types of probes, and the launchers required. Items that took old explorers months to train for decent usage. I hardly think that's fair.

Along with the terrible skill changes comes the new scan times... Are you serious?! 6 seconds! That's ridiculous! In Quantum Rise, you had to train literally for months to be able to scan in less than 2 minutes. Now? 6 seconds? This brings down all the long-time explorers to the same level as those who've been training for a week and a half. That's entirely unfair to the dedicated players.



Bitter much?

EvE is about adapting and taking advantage of new opportunities.
Something similar to real life. I am sure the pro cave men would be SO ****ED OFF that nowadays we live easy mode, don't go out to kill deadly animals but just press some buttons on a computer.
They risked their life and had to learn the hard way how to survive and bring meat home. The outrage!


Finally, the old system had many features but was tedious and not fun.

Surprisingly enough, this is a game, and game designers tend to change tedious and not fun features into fun ones.

Challenging <> so boring few bother, and what we had was boring.


Quote:

now any alt with lvl 1 astrometrics in a t1 astrometrics frig can hunt down ANY site, sure it might take them a bit longer than someone who has specced for 2 months. do you think if you got minmattar frigate lvl 3 and small proj weapons lvl 1 you would do only slightly worse than someone who has specced for t2 guns and frig lvl 5? no, he would wipe the floor with you.

the ammount of skill training time does not give a good enough advantage, may my deep space probes rest in peace



Well, there are movies out about people with 120k SP "day two" characters going out and killing others in much better ships / skills.

It's good not to play WoW, where time = epics = win even if you suck.



Quote:

I've not noticed a lack of sites, however. In fact, there seems to be enough to keep me busy 100% of the time I'm logged in.



If anything, they should make it possible to filter out already found sites, as I keep getting 3-4 nearby contacts and it gets messy when you position probes and you get multiple overlaps.

Ancallan
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2009.03.27 08:35:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ancallan on 27/03/2009 08:35:11
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It's good not to play WoW, where time = epics = win even if you suck.

...

If anything, they should make it possible to filter out already found sites, as I keep getting 3-4 nearby contacts and it gets messy when you position probes and you get multiple overlaps.



This.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:58:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If anything, they should make it possible to filter out already found sites, as I keep getting 3-4 nearby contacts and it gets messy when you position probes and you get multiple overlaps.


Well, I actually do it rather easy by BMing the sites i've scanned out. It would ofc be nice to be able to filter them out without actually spawning them. After you get a certain strength of signal, for example and/or scan out the site with 4 probes (point result).

Fourty Niner
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:15:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Fourty Niner on 27/03/2009 11:20:10
Im one of those who spent Points on the old scan system (Mostly to hunt players), and I was initaly pevved at the new system, when as OP said low point chrs suddenly started to find sites.

However after a bit it became quite obvious that my skill points were not wasted, ok first few scans when I was trying to "old scan" I was really slow, but once I got my head arround the new system I found I could scan something down in about a quarter of the time of "practiced" but low point scanners.

ATM I tend to duel 4 probe gang and hunt two signals at a time. (yep I live in wh space)

1) It is easier
2) It STILL loads easier with practice
3) It even more loads easier with good points

AND FOR pVp

4) Good points, good launcher, right ship, and practice = landing on players FAST, none of this hoping they are afk ,(yes constant moveing will still save you, BUT we are talking a lot closer to moveing "All the time"

Dotard
Minmatar
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fourty Niner
Edited by: Fourty Niner on 27/03/2009 11:20:10
Im one of those who spent Points on the old scan system (Mostly to hunt players), and I was initaly pevved at the new system, when as OP said low point chrs suddenly started to find sites.

However after a bit it became quite obvious that my skill points were not wasted, ok first few scans when I was trying to "old scan" I was really slow, but once I got my head arround the new system I found I could scan something down in about a quarter of the time of "practiced" but low point scanners.

ATM I tend to duel 4 probe gang and hunt two signals at a time. (yep I live in wh space)

1) It is easier
2) It STILL loads easier with practice
3) It even more loads easier with good points

AND FOR pVp

4) Good points, good launcher, right ship, and practice = landing on players FAST, none of this hoping they are afk ,(yes constant moveing will still save you, BUT we are talking a lot closer to moveing "All the time"



This.

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:02:00 - [17]
 

I think there are now MORE explore sites. With lots more in high sec then before. I used to rarely explore high sec because the hits were less often and the pay out not as good. But from high sec is where I can find wormholes that I can work solo, and there are plenty of hits now.

As for the new exploration mechanic, I like it. It is more interactive and engaging.

Kaptain Kruncher
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:39:00 - [18]
 

I have a feeling that just because it is easy for you, at high skill points in probing, that you think it's just as easy for new explorers with low skills. I can find sites pretty quick, but I have seen many complaints about how difficult it is for many players to find low strength sites- actually impossible. So I don't think I have been cheated at all.

I like not loading up my Cheetah with 17 different varieties of probes. I like even better that I don't spend hours scanning a site down only to have to log cause I'm out of time.

About the loot table nerf: Anytime some knucklehead can't find a site or doesn't get Officer loot they start *****ing about bugs and loot table nerfs. The problem I have lately is that there are so many sites- I don't know which do to do first. I found 2 Grav sites in the same system yesterday. That never happened before.

Also with WH's- it just adds a whole new dimension that my whole corp can participate in.

The only thing I agree with is that I liked it when Exploration was a quiet little profession that brought me tons of isk and not many other people were doing it. Kind of a fringe dwellers profession.

Oh yeah, I really like the sound your probes make when they are warping to position and the sound of the scanner analyzing!

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:36:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
I've heard people say in-game that the new system seems like it has lowered rewards tables, fewer sites, and too many worm holes.



All this is a result of more people doing it.

Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's
Posted - 2009.03.27 18:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
Originally by: Ancallan
The old system was neither skill intensive or complicated.


Um... yeah, actually it was. Far more than the current system.


No. Back when I had little in probing skills I tracked down sites as successful and not much slower than some corpmates with far superior skills. 30 minutes difference tops, and when you were sitting there (tabbed out, reading the internets mostly) for up to 3 hours that hardly mattered.
Also, complicated? Lol you had your spots in every system, dumped quest probes, hit analyze for an hour, warp to spot, launch sift or comb, analyze again for anywhere from 5 mins to 1h again, warp to plex. Now you actually have to read and understand the results you get, place your probes accordingly and reduce their radius as you get closer. It's maybe 10 minutes constant interaction to find a plex, and it's far more challenging to interpret the results you get from your probes.

As for less plexes... well probing was just made more accessible and has received quite a PR boost. Of course many new people are trying it and many experienced probers who turned to other professions are giving it a shot again as well. Populated systems will then of course have less sites, while they are amassing in the less populated systems, where much fewer people are probing.

tl;dr
stop whining, it's fine.

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2009.03.27 19:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher

The only thing I agree with is that I liked it when Exploration was a quiet little profession that brought me tons of isk and not many other people were doing it. Kind of a fringe dwellers profession.


I hear that.

Mojihito
Posted - 2009.03.27 20:40:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Mojihito on 27/03/2009 20:48:25
Originally by: Disco Flint
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
Originally by: Ancallan
The old system was neither skill intensive or complicated.


Um... yeah, actually it was. Far more than the current system.


No. Back when I had little in probing skills I tracked down sites as successful and not much slower than some corpmates with far superior skills. 30 minutes difference tops, and when you were sitting there (tabbed out, reading the internets mostly) for up to 3 hours that hardly mattered.
Also, complicated? Lol you had your spots in every system, dumped quest probes, hit analyze for an hour, warp to spot, launch sift or comb, analyze again for anywhere from 5 mins to 1h again, warp to plex. Now you actually have to read and understand the results you get, place your probes accordingly and reduce their radius as you get closer. It's maybe 10 minutes constant interaction to find a plex, and it's far more challenging to interpret the results you get from your probes.

As for less plexes... well probing was just made more accessible and has received quite a PR boost. Of course many new people are trying it and many experienced probers who turned to other professions are giving it a shot again as well. Populated systems will then of course have less sites, while they are amassing in the less populated systems, where much fewer people are probing.

tl;dr
stop whining, it's fine.



You take 10 minutes fo find a plex ?
You find new system challenging ?

wow !! Shocked

The new system is patheticlly easy , and that IS wrong.

The only challage i see is scanning WH with 10 signals near each other.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.27 21:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
Yes, it does. The reason? The new exploration system sucks. A lot. Before Apocrypha, people had to train for at least a month to be able to actually explore, and train much, much longer to be halfway decent at it. Now? People can train for about 2 weeks and have the ability to use everything they'll need to explore: the whopping 2 (two!) types of probes, and the launchers required. Items that took old explorers months to train for decent usage. I hardly think that's fair.


The old system was stupid. It created a skill point barrier an obscure rules barrier and, worst of all, a endure the timer barrier, for entry into exploration. Explorer is a popular SF archetype, people should be able to go out and explore very soon in the game if they desire it. People can PvP almost from day one, why shouldn't they be able to explore?

I personally love the idea of exploring, opening up new frontiers, discovering things other people haven't discovered before. I hated the stupid timer-based old implementation that seemed designed only for explorers that have alts. After training skills for some time you got the privilige to sit in front of your screen watching a timer that indicated when the server would roll the dice again to see if you got something. How stupid is that? The only skill involved here was extreme resistance to boredom.


Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.27 21:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Mojihito


You take 10 minutes fo find a plex ?
You find new system challenging ?

wow !! Shocked

The new system is patheticlly easy , and that IS wrong.

The only challage i see is scanning WH with 10 signals near each other.


You seem to be a person who finds climbing 200 flights of stairs a challenge.

I am a person who finds climbing 20 feet of sheer rock wall a challenge.

The first is just a primarily a question of investing time. The second actually requires some skill. Yeah, the second might be much faster to achieve than the first, however, time invested does not a challenge make where I'm from.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.03.27 23:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Mojihito

You take 10 minutes fo find a plex ?
You find new system challenging ?

wow !! Shocked

The new system is patheticlly easy , and that IS wrong.

The only challage i see is scanning WH with 10 signals near each other.


You seem to be a person who finds climbing 200 flights of stairs a challenge.

I am a person who finds climbing 20 feet of sheer rock wall a challenge.

The first is just a primarily a question of investing time. The second actually requires some skill. Yeah, the second might be much faster to achieve than the first, however, time invested does not a challenge make where I'm from.


No, I pretty much agree with him. The only thing challenging about the new system is when you have multiple close together hits in a wormhole.

There's nothing challenging about inching your probes closer to the red dot and hitting scan again. When you're close enough reduce the scan bubble and repeat (for low deviation hits every step you reduce scan bubble size). Challenging? Seriously? It's RSI monkey work. Where is this mythical 20 feet of sheer rock?

That said it is a lot more fun, at least at first, than the old system. (Although the old system did have the advantage that you could actually be doing something else whilst exploring, whereas in the new system you are tied to your computer until you've scanned down everything in the wormhole. Oddly as your skills got better in the old system it became less interesting as you had to be at your computer much more often.)

And, frankly, in the old system there were moments of human skill albeit too few and far apart. If your pinpointing skill was too low then you could cap out at 1000km from a hard to find site with your sift probes. You could then manually triangulate your hits using the x,y,z co-ordinates you get when dropping bookmarks and use warp to 100km between your hits to get on grid. That took work and thought and I don't see anything like it in the new system.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.28 03:40:00 - [26]
 

my biggest problem is having too many sites in system and not being able to filter them out, and Im way too lazy to scan then switch ships, and then go do it again. on the harder to find ones it gets annoying.

Havegun Willtravel
Posted - 2009.03.28 23:45:00 - [27]
 

Yes there are fewer sites to be found. Why ? Because exploration is much more fun and interactive since the expansion.

I have the same sp now as pre-patch. I found stuff before with the same regularity as i do now. It takes about the same time on average, except, i spend more time moving probes, tightening my groups, and less time waiting for the count down timer. Overall, alot more fun.

Quite frankly you need to be prepared to travel more now than before. I suspect that your complaint is that the nice safe high sec sig's are getting to be fewer due to the increased number of people scanning. Open your map and set your preferences to pilots docked, jumps in the last 30 min, ships destroyed in the last hour, and go.

There are alot of low sec systems that are completely empty. Alot have stations so you can swap hacking or archeology mods. I've never done a site that couldn't be done by a cruiser with little to no stress. Avoid any system that has more than 4 ships destroyed in the last hour and you'll probably never see a camp. The extra risk is worth it, low sec sites are much more profitable and it's unlikely they'll be farmed out by noobs.

Better yet, low sec is the only place to scan for gas clouds to manufacture boosters. With the additional sites created with this expansion it's a great new opportunity idealy suited to experienced players.



 

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