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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:09:00 - [511]
 

Edited by: Eventy One on 25/03/2009 23:12:23
At the end of the day - the name doesn't matter.

The reason everyone is worked up is because - Justice must be seen to be transparent, and impartial.

The real looser, here, is CCP, simply because the end of BoB, and subsequent petition, backed them into a corner where it really didn't matter what they decided - at least half the community (involved in the BoB/Goon conflict), a sizeable number, were going to end up being ticked.

PRECEDENTS?
With respect to the observations of a somewhat uninvolved observer - the fact that CoW was renamed, shows, that CCP had some precedent for renaming the alliance formerly known as BoB to BoBR.

The precedent was there for the renaming but not everyone is going to agree the situations are similar and the precedent applies in this case; basically on partisan grounds. If this was the first instance of an alliance being renamed - the situation would be far worse, but I think CCP has some basis for defending their decision.

With respect to Stian Alliance/Stain Alliance - the fact that partition was turned down, the reasoning, is not transparent. I think this hurts this whole debate.

CONSEQUENCES WITH RESPECT TO ALLIANCES
At the end of the day BoB/Kenzoku/BoBR & Goons are going to continue to wage war against one another. The issue of Sovereignty or loss of Sovereignty would have made recovery by Bob/BoBR either much harder or maintained status quo. Either way, the war would have waged on.

CONSEQUENCES WITH RESPECT TO CCP
As I said before CCP is the looser here, not the players; as angry as people are - people need to see this.

I personally don't believe CCP, or elements of CCP, are sympathetic to BoB any more than they are to any other alliance. I know people with long memories might disagree, but it would be stupid from a business perspective, at his point - plain and simple.

I do think CCP is going to have to flush out internal policy, with respect to the transparent application of law, in and out of game. Why, in one case was a decision made, while in the other, it wasn't. Was this documented? Is all of this transparent to the community?

Peace.



Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:10:00 - [512]
 

Edited by: Avon on 25/03/2009 23:11:04
Originally by: elohllird
is modifying the client within the rules?

When I petitioned it I got the "No modification of the eve client is allowed" reply, with a note about that including files contained in the Eve folders, or used by the client. Also a definition of modification as changing the appearance or function of the client.

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:10:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Momoha
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: elohllird
is modifying the client within the rules?


only when goons do it.


I'll go screenshot my modified client given to me by CCP themselves in a few.


k I'll wait

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:10:00 - [514]
 

Himo i have no knowledge of this and couldnt give a monkeys arse tba if you care about it i will investigate.

/me puts on inspector morse shoes

swoosh

Lee Bian
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:11:00 - [515]
 

Originally by: XoPhyte
Originally by: Momoha
Originally by: XoPhyte

No, you should threadnaught that "other alliances have never gotten this treatment" & "CCP shows Bob favoritism" and then when presented with the facts that this has occured in the past claim "CCP should be able to change policy whenever they want so long as it works out for Goons"


Is yelling "threadnaught threadnaught threadnaught" Kenny code for whining?


No, it's simply calling a threadnaught what it is.... a threadnaught.

do you remember when the whole t20 thing was discovered and there where hundreds of threads created about it, so ccp had to close down the forums?

that's a threadnaught. this was just posting

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:12:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Himo Amasacia
What enraged me was the fact that they were given an unprecedented favour that no-one else in the game has ever been given. They have the power to be called "POWER UNDERWHELMING" any time they want, but it would require them dropping sov in the 9 systems they have left, and CCP allowed them to skip the bad part of the decision.

This reversal was the right decision and I applaud CCP for it.



Except that it HAS been done in the past. I would suggest reading the last 3 pages. Since you are "enraged" you may be "enraged" to learn that when goons were made aware of this fact their comments where "we threadnaughted anway to pull crap towards bob" and "ccp should be allowed to change their policy whenever they want, we don't care if they did it in the past, we don't want them to do it now".

Have fun reading Very Happy

Bernard Bolzano
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:12:00 - [517]
 

so it took 2 months to decide, then 3 days to revoke....

threadnought! go!

Vladimir Griftin
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:14:00 - [518]
 

I realise this thread is rapidly degenerating into a slanging match, but this 'precedent' which is being thrown about. This dates back to a missing alliance fee and some jokers taking the name for a laugh?

BoB was disbanded by one of its alliance leaders, someone with the legitimate power to do so. This alliance leader then defected to another alliance and took the name with him.

That's not even remotely the same thing.

JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:14:00 - [519]
 

If it takes 2 months for CCP to make a bad decision, how long does it take to make a good one?

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:14:00 - [520]
 

Edited by: elohllird on 25/03/2009 23:14:27
momoha are you the "special one" in goons

ElweSingollo
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:15:00 - [521]
 

pretty pathetic really who cares about the name change except goons and really who the **** except goons cares about goons Rolling Eyes

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:15:00 - [522]
 

Edited by: XoPhyte on 25/03/2009 23:15:56
Originally by: Vladimir Griftin
I realise this thread is rapidly degenerating into a slanging match, but this 'precedent' which is being thrown about. This dates back to a missing alliance fee and some jokers taking the name for a laugh?

BoB was disbanded by one of its alliance leaders, someone with the legitimate power to do so. This alliance leader then defected to another alliance and took the name with him.

That's not even remotely the same thing.


So then there is a policy clearly written where names will be returned or changed and where they won't be? And Bob clearly cheats for not knowing this "policy" and asking for it to be changed?


madd0g11
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:15:00 - [523]
 

'We didn't want Band of Brothers reloaded anyways'


Momoha
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:16:00 - [524]
 

Originally by: elohllird

momoha are you the "special one" in goons


Is "goons" some new corp? Never heard of it.

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:17:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: madd0g11
'We didn't want Band of Brothers reloaded anyways'




and on that bombshell

close thread we have been owned

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:17:00 - [526]
 

Originally by: Himo Amasacia
If the name means nothing to you, how come you are posting altered killmails onto your killboard, with the name Kenzuko stripped and the Name Band of Brothers inserted instead. It seems that you are so "its only a name really!!! WHY DO YOU CARE" yourselves that you have created a script to erase "Kenzuko" from your own killboard, and thereby are posting altered killmails onto your own board instead


And why do you care?

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:18:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: Momoha
Originally by: elohllird

momoha are you the "special one" in goons


Is "goons" some new corp? Never heard of it.


no it aint its a new word to say you have been reported twice by me to ccp

Himo Amasacia
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:21:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: XoPhyte


Except that it HAS been done in the past. I would suggest reading the last 3 pages. Since you are "enraged" you may be "enraged" to learn that when goons were made aware of this fact their comments where "we threadnaughted anway to pull crap towards bob" and "ccp should be allowed to change their policy whenever they want, we don't care if they did it in the past, we don't want them to do it now".

Have fun reading Very Happy


Oh you mean when an alliance that previously existed had its name changed to seem like another alliance?

Sorry unprecedented. The only Cult of war I see in game was created on the 5 of December 2008 at 21:05. LONG after the old one disbanded.

Kenzuko was created months before BOB disbanded, and you only wanted the name changed to sooth yoru feelings without dropping sov 3

Will create Blond of Brothers underwhelming [BLOB]. Go ahead, I don't care. But do it within the rules.

Oh and by the way, replacing files created by the client is not modifying the client itself, and you know it damn well. Yes I'm talking about the portrait pack. No filed that came withthe client were altered, just the ones that were created by the client that were used for visual purposes, and saved serverstrain as who the hell wants a 5000 man address book for every character on your server. Keep clutching at straws and crying yoru eyes out. I'll hand you a hanky.

I'll also keep blowing your ships up either way. And you don't have the skill to stop me

Momoha
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:21:00 - [529]
 

Edited by: Momoha on 25/03/2009 23:21:08
Originally by: XoPhyte

And why do you care?


I doubt he cares as much as it shows how low morale is within your own alliance.

Yonker
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:22:00 - [530]
 

:madprops: to CCP for actually investigating this.

Vladimir Griftin
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:24:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: XoPhyte
So then there is a policy clearly written where names will be returned or changed and where they won't be? And Bob clearly cheats for not knowing this "policy" and asking for it to be changed?


Hey I never said you cheated, I just think it was incredibly naive to assume CCP would reverse it for you.

If you step back and look at all the facts, there's no way CCP should have helped.

The price it seems was the chance to pick a better name early on.

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:26:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Himo Amasacia
Originally by: XoPhyte


Except that it HAS been done in the past. I would suggest reading the last 3 pages. Since you are "enraged" you may be "enraged" to learn that when goons were made aware of this fact their comments where "we threadnaughted anway to pull crap towards bob" and "ccp should be allowed to change their policy whenever they want, we don't care if they did it in the past, we don't want them to do it now".

Have fun reading Very Happy


Oh you mean when an alliance that previously existed had its name changed to seem like another alliance?

Sorry unprecedented. The only Cult of war I see in game was created on the 5 of December 2008 at 21:05. LONG after the old one disbanded.

Kenzuko was created months before BOB disbanded, and you only wanted the name changed to sooth yoru feelings without dropping sov 3

Will create Blond of Brothers underwhelming [BLOB]. Go ahead, I don't care. But do it within the rules.

Oh and by the way, replacing files created by the client is not modifying the client itself, and you know it damn well. Yes I'm talking about the portrait pack. No filed that came withthe client were altered, just the ones that were created by the client that were used for visual purposes, and saved serverstrain as who the hell wants a 5000 man address book for every character on your server. Keep clutching at straws and crying yoru eyes out. I'll hand you a hanky.

I'll also keep blowing your ships up either way. And you don't have the skill to stop me


1) we petitioned the same day the BOB name was taken, so SOV 3 didn't matter or even exist at that point.

2) creating macros is not modifying the game client either, but still against the eula.

Please come back with some sensible posts. Or keep bringing the "cheating isn't cheating if goons do it, but BOB cheats every day". I love it. Very Happy

Tamir Lenk
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:26:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: Kryztal
Weak, ccp again shows that pathetic whining controls their decision making. Favortism ? Yeah CCP favor those who ***** and moan enough.

Weak, very weak.


Much like your posting . . . and your judgment on director access . . . and your capacity to hold space and/or an alliance name.


Himo Amasacia
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:29:00 - [534]
 

Oh and for those that dont believe me that they are alstering killmails on their own board as they can stand the name Kenzuko check these out. These are from the last few hours.

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313158/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

"We DON'T CARE ABOUT A NAME REALLY!!!"


XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:31:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Vladimir Griftin
Hey I never said you cheated, I just think it was incredibly naive to assume CCP would reverse it for you.


Yeah I know m8. More over it's just funny that people think we cheated for sending in 1 petition the day it was taken. Was more talking to the point that goons want to bring up about "this situation is different then the other one, but you still cheated" spam they seem to be slewing around.

As for the naive comment, I don't know that we "banked" on it, simply asked the day it occured. Seeing as it occured in the past it could have been done again. Also Goonswarm wardeced our corps to insure we could not create a new alliance, we would have had to create new corps as well which would have played POS hell as they would no longer belong to us. So I think the "niave" comment is maybe just a bit naive on your part m8. Wink

I guess we should never rely on what has occured on the past, even by asking we are cheaters and it's far to easy for goons to "threadnaught" their way to CCP.

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:33:00 - [536]
 

Edited by: XoPhyte on 25/03/2009 23:39:13
Originally by: Himo Amasacia
Oh and for those that dont believe me that they are alstering killmails on their own board as they can stand the name Kenzuko check these out. These are from the last few hours.

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313158/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

"We DON'T CARE ABOUT A NAME REALLY!!!"




Yep, rather then try to re-write all the previous records which calculate fleet battles, %'s and tons of lines of code we decided to insert 1 line of code to perform a REPLACE statement. You are right, writing 1 line of code over changing millions of records..... We should have done it your way. Rolling Eyes

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/fk49wtc1.aspx

Some reading for you.

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:35:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: Himo Amasacia
Oh and for those that dont believe me that they are alstering killmails on their own board as they can stand the name Kenzuko check these out. These are from the last few hours.

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313158/

http://www.killboard.net/details/313211/

"We DON'T CARE ABOUT A NAME REALLY!!!"




i didnt say i didnt believe you mate , i dont care.

And if you think , as you are well aware that an alliance as large as yours or mine thinks in all one way and knows everything what everyone else is doing...

well maybe goons do, i dont know.

Orree
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:37:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Orree
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
dear god, sad to see goons can pressure ccp into everything they want like this.
clearly showes that if you spam enough on the forums you get your will



Nevermind what was done was wrong and reversing it was the correct thing to do, right?

C'mon, man...think about it.

I have no doubt that some of the people who had a problem with it did or said what they did out of spite, but there were a good number of people who were appalled at the action as being on contravention of the rules related to name changes (mainly that they simply rarely, if ever, allow them). The action that was taken circumvented game mechanics.

If Kenny wanted a new alliance name, all they had to do was pay the billion, form the alliance and have their corps join it...just like everyone else.

The number of Goon postings on the subject really has no bearing on the matter at hand other than perhaps being annoying.



sorry, but i see nothing really wrong with giving bob back their name, sure ccp could have handled this whole thing in a better way, but they didnt.
and whatever ccp would have choosen to do you can bet your ass there would still be 1000's of posts by goons crying out on the forums if it didnt go their way just like they allways do.



I don't have a problem with BoB getting their name back, either, as long as it is done following established rules, policies and game mechanics.

In this case what was done clearly wasn't.

BoB leadership took the hasty decision of having their corps join an alliance that was already established and then petitioned for a name change of that alliance. Wrong move. I don't know about you, but I could have said right off the bat that's the wrong way to go about it. My guess is that they knew it was, too. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here for the sake of the discussion.

It really doesn't matter that a bunch of Goons got their backs up. It wasn't just Goons who petitioned. It hasn't just been Goons who have spoken out against this.

Most of the detractors responding in these threads are only responding in the negative because they dislike the Goons. It has nothing to do with whether or not what CCP did was correct or incorrect. It goes both ways, but it doesn't seem some want to see it that way. No one seems to think their #[email protected]! stinks.


Arch Ville
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:38:00 - [539]
 

I am glad that justice has been done and that the rules are being followed.
I hope not to see anymore scandals like this again.
Thanks CCP for having the courage to admit their mistake and taking it back.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2009.03.25 23:39:00 - [540]
 

1. CCP refuses 'Cookies, Cake and Pie' but allows 'Band of Brothers'
2. 'Band of Brothers' get disbanded by a Director.
3. 'Band of Brothers' name/ticker gets picked up by a squatter who joins Goonswarm
4. KenZoku is used as the temporery alliance during pettiton, due to the importance of sov in territory warfare.
5. KenZoku becomes 'Bands of Brother Reloaded' after pettiton.
6. 'Band of Brothers Reloaded' becomes KenZoku again after threadnaught II
7. 'Band of Brothers Reloaded' name/ticker gets picked up by a squatter who joins Goonswarm

Reasons behind all the steps are for each side to have a advantage in sov wars. Stuff like the above is why many people no longer give give a sh*t about fighting sov wars to make someone else rich anymore. Settle in a bit of WH space, reap all the rewards you get for claiming space and gank any goons/explorers that pass by.


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