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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.26 14:48:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
If binary combat is the problem, I believe one should solve the core problem instead of tinkering with other stuff, for it has the danger of just making other problems appear. As far as the 15km station perimeter is concerned, if implemented people will just warp between safespots or log off. Perfectly easy and doable for the competent and aware player. It won't solve anything.
I did mention it was flawed. The point was that playing with mechanics will probably always result in something binary, and that interesting situations could result from forcing more choices even with the current mechanics, if that is possible.

Originally by: Merdaneth
As long as being caught = being dead, it doesn't matter how much we tinker if there are still option for competent players to not be caught. And if there aren't options to prevent being caught....
If we give the player options on what to do, and they choose the wrong one, they end up dead. A maybe, with the outcome determined by the players involved. Happens all the time anyway, in other situations. The problem here, as I see it, is there is no player choice involved. Each side makes their preparations, but once the attack begins it is really already decided.

But, as I say, as far as I can see EVE is stuck like this.

Deej Montana
Caldari
Outbound Flight
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:22:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

I dont want consentual pvp. I dont to kill random targets in a wormhole. I am and want to be a standover 1 man corporation. I want to be a wolf that hunts sheep not a wolf that hunts wolves.



Emphasis added

Yep, there's the issue right there. You want cheap, easy kills. Well, I guess I have to give you some points as at least you admit it. But really, if you wanted some challenge you'd be in low sec with the other predators. This is a sandbox where your playstyle is as valid as anyone else's, but I don't see how "hunting" people who can't/won't fight back is entertaining. Where I come from that's called bullying.


Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:27:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I often hunt chinese farmer Ravens in 0.0 (and I say Chinese because they do write in Chinese to each other in local chat)

These type of people are very hard to catch, since they get safe as soon as you enter local. Couple times I had interceptor jump and warp to a nearby belt, so fast that only 10 seconds pass from me entering local and exiting warp. And what I get rewarded with is a glimpse of a Raven disappearing from overview :-/

I find that the best chance of catching people at belt is to enter local while they are in warp to the next belt, then guess the correct belt, and exit warp just a couple seconds after they exit warp, giving you about 1-5 seconds to get a point.

It's pretty rough. Local chat is mostly to blame, but then there's also increased agility which made things from bad to worse


Every warp is AT LEAST 20 SEONDS. So it is not possible for you to warp to a belt 10 seconds after you entered local ...

the other part is quite interesting ... I have to say that's some guess game :-)

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:31:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Anneka Tong
Originally by: Anneka Tong
What if local didn't add the "+" "-" "*" to player names?

Would that help?


So was this a terrible idea or what?

Local as is, tags every name in the list with a "+" for good standing, "-" for bad standing, and "*" of varying colours for corp/alliance/militia/war targets.

Suppose it didn't? You'd still see people enter and leave local, but without doing showinfo on all of them, you couldn't tell who was who.

Might make getting the jump on people in highsec a bit easier?



It used to work just like that.

People got around it by using their buddy lists for war targets - leading to lots of lag.

Trathen
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:39:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Trathen on 26/03/2009 15:39:53
Catching sheep is the challenge, not fighting them.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:41:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Deej Montana
Yep, there's the issue right there. You want cheap, easy kills. Well, I guess I have to give you some points as at least you admit it. But really, if you wanted some challenge you'd be in low sec with the other predators. This is a sandbox where your playstyle is as valid as anyone else's, but I don't see how "hunting" people who can't/won't fight back is entertaining. Where I come from that's called bullying.
What's funny is that even if I only said that these very arguments had already been refuted, I'd still be repeating myself. Like a meta-repeat.

I <3 this thread.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:52:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I have a couple of alts I recycle every 24 hours for spying out my targets and have been doing this same thing for about 3 or 4 years on and off


isnt alt recycling an eula violation ?




Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:52:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 26/03/2009 15:52:39
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I have a couple of alts I recycle every 24 hours for spying out my targets and have been doing this same thing for about 3 or 4 years on and off
isnt alt recycling an eula violation ?
Only if done to avoid security status hits, AFAIK.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.03.26 16:22:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Baltara
Maybe the High Sec Carebears don't want to play your game?

Empire PvP is fine except for the PvP'ers who Wardec Carebear corps for some legally sanctioned griefing and then cry when the bears go into hibernation.


This

If you're going to wardec a peaceful empire corp and then whine about pvp, keep the tears coming.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.26 16:55:00 - [220]
 

OP, you want acton, go wardec the goons or EveUnversity.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.03.27 00:19:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 27/03/2009 00:24:25
Already wardecced Goons and EvE U many times.

Simple fixes that dont really change the game much could be:

1. dont sort local.
2. dont put an icon in local till the ship uncloaks.
3. take the delays off location agents.
4. location agents contactable from space.
5. scrammed ship cant jump or dock.

Most of you think that eve was like this from the beginning but it wasnt. EvE was like I want it to be, then they 'fixed' a problem by introducing a new problem, and 'fixed' that by introducing... ad nuseum.

Now we have EvE Offline.

Merkwurdigliebe
Posted - 2009.03.27 00:58:00 - [222]
 

I just wanted to be a part of this awesome thread and post just once.

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Im a very lucky person. I work 65 hours a week and I get to play EvE at work about 90% of that time.


That was awesome.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.03.27 04:39:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 27/03/2009 00:24:25
Already wardecced Goons and EvE U many times.

Simple fixes that dont really change the game much could be:

1. dont sort local.
2. dont put an icon in local till the ship uncloaks.
3. take the delays off location agents.
4. location agents contactable from space.
5. scrammed ship cant jump or dock.

Most of you think that eve was like this from the beginning but it wasnt. EvE was like I want it to be, then they 'fixed' a problem by introducing a new problem, and 'fixed' that by introducing... ad nuseum.

Now we have EvE Offline.


Yes, Eve has changed, and you have more than 10K people in the game because of it. This actually turned into an interesting discussion of mechanics. However, with this last post, OP really gets to the meat of his/her issue.

The game has changed.

I know the game wasn't like this from the beginning, I looked at it in 2005, 2006 and 2008. 2008 is when I finally started playing for any period of time.

It comes down to CCP making the game accessible to a broader base, so that they have more income... vOv I think its really that simple, and I don't believe they will change Empire rules that much...

Of course, I didn't think they would change BOBR's name back either.... So I can be wrong...
______________


Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2009.03.27 06:19:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn

Originally by: Galan Amarias
various things
Quite a lot of other things


I think you and Merdaneth pretty well hammered out the binary problem. I agree it's unfortunate and unlikely to change. Anything you do to make the defender easier to kill has to be offset with something he can defend himself with. Since all the likely defending ships are also meat when brought to combat it's the meta skill of finding prey vs recognizing your attackers. In the OP's case he's made it very simple by being alone but even for large corps war deccing the + and - in local have greatly simplified defense.

The only real thought I have for altering that would be allowing some kind of drone or platform to do your mining for you targeted and operated like POS guns. That way a miner could be sitting in their own combat ship defending their mining rig. Of course that would be a radical move away from the current mining game and you'd have to force people to stay near the things.

I agree that it's much easier to be the defender. Scanning local takes a lot less effort than stalking a likely target corp. I think that as long as the miners are helpless when brought to action that will have to remain the case.. at least in empire.

Next, Playing to win is exactly right in this context. I'll agree it gets over used, but I still love to link it. The core principle of that argument isn't using every game mechanic you can get your hands on for any possible advantage. That's certainly part of it, but the true gem of that document is don't impose rules on yourself that are unnecessary. In the OP's case he is deliberately making his hunt much harder than he needs to. His refusal to use his alts for more than eyes is a good example of exactly that. His request for game mechanics to back up a playstyle he's handicapped just screams "Scrub".

When it comes to anything and everything you can do to win, I have to admit I almost always stack the deck as far in my favor as possible. The times I don't are usually when I've caught some noob in a ship he is under skilled for and use something small to make the kill more amusing, better killboard fodder, what have you. Or there are the times I'm bored and just want some pew pew. That recklessness is the reason for most of my ship losses. Even if I didn't feel all was fair game I have to acknowledge that others will use every available tactic and I need to plan for all the really dirty ones if I plan to engage competent opponents. To me that makes it more fun and to do otherwise would mean I'm not really playing EVE.

Some of the OP's recent suggestions are actually fairly moderate. A delay of a few seconds in local won't prevent the wary miner from escaping but it does provide a little more time to acquire and kill. Mind you since he is willing to watch the miner with an alt the delay can be quickly abused.

Sorting local will only effect him since he's a one man operation, most people watching local have to scroll through it.

Denying docking and gate use to scramed ships.. that would be too much. Nothing could escape the tackler and we'd just see the wardecees camped into stations.

-Galan

01001101
Caldari
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2009.03.27 06:40:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Cipher7
When you take the take the train of thought to its logical conclusion, it comes down to "I don't want to fight other people who want to fight me, I want to be the super special ninja guy that kills everyone and doesn't die." ... People like this don't want fights. They want kills handed to them on a silver platter.
You hit the nail on the head there, This is exactly how this person plays.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Last war with UCAM I lost 14 ships. Around a billion or more isk. Of those 14 ships, only 1 fight was not initiated by me.
Just to clear up some inaccuracies in your previous statement, I in fact initiated these kills.

This one you kept cloaking and warping about and jabbering in local, not initiating :D.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3874
You didn't even fire back when you uncloaked for some reason

You surely didn't initiate this one.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3907 Not exactly a "all gank no tank" fit either.

This one you kept docking and undocking for some reason while i just scrambled you every time you weren't station tanking.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3923
This is also an example of bad piloting and bad fittings, firing on a ship of that size with railguns at a station.

You most assuredly did not initiate this fight, you fled in a destroyer when you couldn't win in a battleship, then changed to a shuttle to attempt to flee the next station. I can change ships too :D http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3964
Originally by: Cipher7
Nobody goes mining in a belt and decides "Hey it's Ziona, lemme try to kill this Arazu with my drones."
Funny that you mention this, since Infinity managed to lose his ship and pod to an orca and hulk.

Point being the game is perfectly fine, Infinity Ziona is just very bad at it. In my experiences with him he has shown a poor grasp of game mechanics. Not to mention his conduct, tactics(?), and horrible setups make me believe he is not the original owner of that character. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt as they are the words of an inexperienced player who bought an old character and now has to cope with not knowing how to play the game. Cheers o7

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.03.27 07:18:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 27/03/2009 07:23:26
Originally by: 01001101
Originally by: Cipher7
When you take the take the train of thought to its logical conclusion, it comes down to "I don't want to fight other people who want to fight me, I want to be the super special ninja guy that kills everyone and doesn't die." ... People like this don't want fights. They want kills handed to them on a silver platter.
You hit the nail on the head there, This is exactly how this person plays.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Last war with UCAM I lost 14 ships. Around a billion or more isk. Of those 14 ships, only 1 fight was not initiated by me.
Just to clear up some inaccuracies in your previous statement, I in fact initiated these kills.

This one you kept cloaking and warping about and jabbering in local, not initiating :D.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3874
You didn't even fire back when you uncloaked for some reason

You surely didn't initiate this one.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3907 Not exactly a "all gank no tank" fit either.

This one you kept docking and undocking for some reason while i just scrambled you every time you weren't station tanking.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3923
This is also an example of bad piloting and bad fittings, firing on a ship of that size with railguns at a station.

You most assuredly did not initiate this fight, you fled in a destroyer when you couldn't win in a battleship, then changed to a shuttle to attempt to flee the next station. I can change ships too :D http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3964
Originally by: Cipher7
Nobody goes mining in a belt and decides "Hey it's Ziona, lemme try to kill this Arazu with my drones."
Funny that you mention this, since Infinity managed to lose his ship and pod to an orca and hulk.

Point being the game is perfectly fine, Infinity Ziona is just very bad at it. In my experiences with him he has shown a poor grasp of game mechanics. Not to mention his conduct, tactics(?), and horrible setups make me believe he is not the original owner of that character. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt as they are the words of an inexperienced player who bought an old character and now has to cope with not knowing how to play the game. Cheers o7

I never said I was expert at anything.

If you have evidence of ebaying / EULA violations you should be taking that up with CCP not discussing it here on the forums.

The rest of your post leaves a lot out and as such is mostly bragging with little truth regarding what transpired.

01001101
Caldari
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2009.03.27 07:33:00 - [227]
 

As i said, correcting previous statement. I knew if i didn't include links you would just denounce it like usual :D

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 08:11:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: 01001101
Just to clear up some inaccuracies in your previous statement, I in fact initiated these kills.

This one you kept cloaking and warping about and jabbering in local, not initiating :D.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3874
You didn't even fire back when you uncloaked for some reason

You surely didn't initiate this one.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3907 Not exactly a "all gank no tank" fit either.

This one you kept docking and undocking for some reason while i just scrambled you every time you weren't station tanking.
http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3923
This is also an example of bad piloting and bad fittings, firing on a ship of that size with railguns at a station.

You most assuredly did not initiate this fight, you fled in a destroyer when you couldn't win in a battleship, then changed to a shuttle to attempt to flee the next station. I can change ships too :D http://www.evekb.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3964
See, if this is to be taken at face value (and the OP didn't refute any of it, just focused on talking about the EULA ref: eBaying characters) then it just makes the original argument even more ludicrous.

The OP talks about people having too many ways and means of escape, but when it comes to the crunch he'll do all of these things himself if it means saving his ship. The phrase "hoisted by your own petard" springs to mind.

I suppose it does answer one question though - why would someone apparently keenly focused on PvP devote all his time to the targets least capable of defending themselves or fighting back. Well, maybe that narrative above answers that question.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:25:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Durzel
I must admit I really don't understand this mentality at all.

You talk about gate-camping being "completely skill-less and boring", then in the very next breath talk about how you exclusively war-dec Empire corps. I checked the bio of your latest target - Sleepless Knights - and surprise, surprise it reads "A friendly adult corp. Always up for some mining missions or exploring".

With all due respect it strikes me that you, and people like you, aren't really looking for a fight - they're looking for easy-mode PvP vs targets who are neither looking for a fight themselves, nor of the mindset to deal with one.

I get that "lol Eve is harsh dude, gb2WoW etc" - but let's be realistic, if you were really just "looking for PvP, no more no less" and you were willing to take the rough with the smooth you'd be in low-sec where you have every chance of being the prey as you do being the hunter. You don't want to do that though, because that would tip the odds too far for your liking. People might actually kill you.

People whine about carebears but exclusively-Empire wardeccers really aren't any different, they're just coming at it from a different angle convincing themselves and others that wardeccing corps of 10 miners with zero PvP interest or experience is some sort of epic fight for the ages. In that respect at least your average carebear isn't pretending to be something he/she isn't.

If you genuinely want some fights, try low-sec on for size. It seems so obvious to me that I'm a bit puzzled as to why I would have to point it out.


Fair points and most hit home, yet you should realise that a lot of people find low sec a bit like playing an FPS, without any form of reasoning or idea behind it. Some like playing like an fps, some like a more subtle approach, some like playing mind games.

I mostly dabble in high sec and do so for several reasons. There's some good fights to be had, there's a lot of fun and profit and if you look for it there's some proper targets out there. But yeah; deccing silly miner corps and then complaining about the lack of fights is a bit silly imo.

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:51:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Durzel
why would someone apparently keenly focused on PvP devote all his time to the targets least capable of defending themselves or fighting back.

Why would someone not interested in that kind of pvp care so much? Who appointed you the official stamp of acceptable gameplay?

Seems to me you are advocating the marginilization of what is and isn't pvp and therefore basically championing the loss of choices. Is there no room in Eve for the 'scum' because you find it lame?

Taken to it's logical ends, it will result in pvp being relegated to very few types of game play. I can see forum posts in Eve's future to the effect of, "If you want PvP, go join a proper fleet and shoot POS. Roaming gangs are lame because that's just ganking. Pirating is lame, stop shooting miners" etc.


It makes me sad to see so many people in this thread shouting down someone simply because they don't think the OP is cool for doing what he does. The greatest thing about Eve is it's complexity and the many different ways you can play the game. Why are all you people wanting to see yet another form of Eve gameplay made extinct? How is that a good thing?

Can the people the OP wardecs defend against him? Most certainly. So what the hell is the problem?


Get off your damn soap boxes and respect that the OP pays his $15 bucks just like you. QR broke the balance between hunter and hunted. It's been obvious for awhile. Just because you don't play that way doesn't mean that it isn't a valid complaint.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:59:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim
Fair points and most hit home, yet you should realise that a lot of people find low sec a bit like playing an FPS, without any form of reasoning or idea behind it. Some like playing like an fps, some like a more subtle approach, some like playing mind games.

I mostly dabble in high sec and do so for several reasons. There's some good fights to be had, there's a lot of fun and profit and if you look for it there's some proper targets out there. But yeah; deccing silly miner corps and then complaining about the lack of fights is a bit silly imo.

You make an interesting point there, one which I must admit I hadn't really thought about until reading yours and some other responses in the thread.

For some the hunt is the payoff, which is as much a playstyle that should be supported as mining or other activities.

The thing with this thread, and the OP - although I've got nothing against him personally - is that I think his motivations are actually at odds, or at least dissimilar from yours, Crumplecorns, etc - even if it seems like he's playing the same tune. My gut feeling always was (and definitely is following 01001101's post) that the OP has tried "proper PvP", realised he is pretty mediocre at it, and has made a proactive choice to go down the pecking order to a more comfortable zone - one where there is practically zero chance of him losing his ship: wardeccing miner corps and other targets who, unlike his peers, don't want to fight under any circumstances and will do everything they can to avoid it.

The thing is I totally get that people will gravitate towards methods and practices that get the job done with the least effort and minimum risk - it's why gatecamps, blobbing, hotdropping et al is so prevalent, and it's basic human nature. That being said, if someone is going to decry this sort of practice they should at the very least make sure their own house is in order.

There's nothing wrong persay with shooting fish in a barrel by deccing miner corps, just as long as those that do it are under no illusions as to their place in the pecking order, and that high-sec - whilst not "safe" - is designed to facilitate the sheep rather than the wolves.

Rallying against that is just pointless really, especially in cases where your own position is less than tenable to begin with.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:05:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

If you have evidence of ebaying / EULA violations you should be taking that up with CCP not discussing it here on the forums.

The rest of your post leaves a lot out and as such is mostly bragging with little truth regarding what transpired.


Ziona, seeing some of these setups, I would strongly suggest developing more PvP skills rather than whining about game mechanics.

Playing EVE for 40+ hours a week should give you plenty of learning time. Perhaps join a corp and learn from some experienced wolves?

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:16:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Durzel on 27/03/2009 10:21:38
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Durzel
why would someone apparently keenly focused on PvP devote all his time to the targets least capable of defending themselves or fighting back.

Why would someone not interested in that kind of pvp care so much? Who appointed you the official stamp of acceptable gameplay?

Seems to me you are advocating the marginilization of what is and isn't pvp and therefore basically championing the loss of choices. Is there no room in Eve for the 'scum' because you find it lame?

Taken to it's logical ends, it will result in pvp being relegated to very few types of game play. I can see forum posts in Eve's future to the effect of, "If you want PvP, go join a proper fleet and shoot POS. Roaming gangs are lame because that's just ganking. Pirating is lame, stop shooting miners" etc.

Nice straw man there. You should probably replace "logical" with "logically contrived" though.

I've got nothing against PvP wherever it may take place. I don't even have anything against people wardeccing "defenceless" corps. I don't think high-sec should be 100% safe. I don't think there should be a PvP flag - implied or actual. I'm just spelling that out for you so you don't feel the need to misrepresent my position again.

What I do have a problem with is people who state for the record that they're frustrated by the lack of fights, when they've consciously made the decision to focus on places where the odds of a fight are stacked against them. The discussion about whether or not high-sec is too safe, or not safe enough is beyond the scope of a single thread to be honest - suffice as to say that it's patently obvious that high-sec has been designed to be "almost safe", and anyone who operates as a pirate in it has to adapt to it, or die.

So long as people can warp instantly when aligned, dock/jump/logoff when they haven't aggressed and disappear, log on a different character to avoid fighting but still play, etc - then the OPs frustrations will never be eased. Changing any of those things would mean a radical paradigm shift that would affect the entire game, and is therefore unlikely enough to be considered relevant in a discussion.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:28:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Infinity Ziona

If you have evidence of ebaying / EULA violations you should be taking that up with CCP not discussing it here on the forums.

The rest of your post leaves a lot out and as such is mostly bragging with little truth regarding what transpired.


Ziona, seeing some of these setups, I would strongly suggest developing more PvP skills rather than whining about game mechanics.

Playing EVE for 40+ hours a week should give you plenty of learning time. Perhaps join a corp and learn from some experienced wolves?

My fits dont make sense to you because they're not 'traditional' but my playstyle is not 'traditional'. At the end of my war with UCAM I had 14 kills they had 11. All of theirs were multiple vs me solo. All mine were solo. My fits work.

As for PvP, today I engaged a maelstrom and 2 hurricanes in Lustrevik, I killed 1 hurricane, Maelstrom docked and was working on the second hurricane when a mega arrived. I survived and I was in a ferox.

Currently in my war against sleepless I have 2 hurricanes, 2 pods, 1 shuttle, I retriever. They have no kills.

I may not be the best pvp'r or the bravest but my fits work for the tasks I need to them to perform and thats all that counts.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:59:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

My fits dont make sense to you because they're not 'traditional' but my playstyle is not 'traditional'. At the end of my war with UCAM I had 14 kills they had 11. All of theirs were multiple vs me solo. All mine were solo. My fits work.


Ziona, I live for nontraditional fits. However, fits must make sense in some way, and some of these of yours just.... don't. And you are talking to someone who thinks its fine to not fit a point on a solo-ship.

However, 4 internal nanofibers in lows for example, the fourth just won't do anything noticeable, just can't see what extra use it would have had as opposed to fitting something else.

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

As for PvP, today I engaged a maelstrom and 2 hurricanes in Lustrevik, I killed 1 hurricane, Maelstrom docked and was working on the second hurricane when a mega arrived. I survived and I was in a ferox.


Kill numbers mean nothing to me out of context. However, ship setups are your own choice, and some of them tell me you could use improvement in that department. If you need improvement there, perhaps you could use it with your hunting tactics as well.

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I may not be the best pvp'r or the bravest but my fits work for the tasks I need to them to perform and thats all that counts.


Bravery is not required, to each his own playstyle. However, your point was that your fits *didn't work for your tasks*, that you were frustrated about losing targets. Seeing your fits suggests to me that your hunting style can use a bit of overhauling as well.

Perhaps you don't want to adapt your hunting style, because it is the style itself you love. But either accept the lower number of kills, or change the style.

Kawea
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:25:00 - [236]
 

An interesting topic indeed.

The statement in the title is very broad and could be discussed for a long time with no real results. However, the actual post narrows it down to something very specific:

Being a single player corp declaring wars against empire based mining corps and alliances yields a low number of fights.

The implied desire seems to be, that the game mechanics should change in the way that would increase the number of fights the stated playing style will yield. As other posters here have pointed out, any change in a game mechanics would be a tricky matter with many consequences that are hard to foresee. Therefore, we are not likely to see a change in the direction as desired by the OP any time soon.

This leaves Infinity with two options, three if including the radical one:

1.) Continue using the current play style, accepting the results it brings.

2.) Change the style to one that will bring more desirable results.

3.) (radical solution) Find a different game where the chosen style will be bringing more desirable results.

And this is really all there is.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:28:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
Next, Playing to win is exactly right in this context. I'll agree it gets over used, but I still love to link it. The core principle of that argument isn't using every game mechanic you can get your hands on for any possible advantage. That's certainly part of it, but the true gem of that document is don't impose rules on yourself that are unnecessary. In the OP's case he is deliberately making his hunt much harder than he needs to. His refusal to use his alts for more than eyes is a good example of exactly that. His request for game mechanics to back up a playstyle he's handicapped just screams "Scrub".
While you seem to take something more positive from it than the author intended, Sirlin most certainly hammers home the point of using any and every mechanic available to win - except those beyond the imaginary non-scrub line he amusingly allows himself to draw. In OP's case, PTW cannot be applied anyway - the OP's goal isn't to win, but to have fun with a certain playstyle. Most certainly a 'scrub', pursuing the foolish notion of a fun and interesting way to play over a mindless trudge towards killboard padding. The issue is merely that it highlights something of a deficiency that affects many aspects of the game.


Originally by: Durzel
You make an interesting point there, one which I must admit I hadn't really thought about until reading yours and some other responses in the thread.

For some the hunt is the payoff, which is as much a playstyle that should be supported as mining or other activities.
Welcome to page 1. Though I am glad to see someone (eventually :p) look at things from the other side - it's quite rare around here.

Originally by: Durzel
The thing with this thread, and the OP - although I've got nothing against him personally - is that I think his motivations are actually at odds, or at least dissimilar from yours, Crumplecorns, etc - even if it seems like he's playing the same tune. [...]
I think this is quite possible, but my perspective on this at least is that I encounter similar issues in my PvP experience, and hear about similar things all the time on the forums. I don't think anyone really cares about fixing the OP's playstyle in particular - if only one lesser-used playstyle is broken, the correct response is probably to adapt or give up. The interest is derived from the more general issue underlying the OP's issue.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:46:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Ziona, I live for nontraditional fits. However, fits must make sense in some way, and some of these of yours just.... don't. And you are talking to someone who thinks its fine to not fit a point on a solo-ship.

However, 4 internal nanofibers in lows for example, the fourth just won't do anything noticeable, just can't see what extra use it would have had as opposed to fitting something else.

There are two variables when it comes to fitting a ship for solo pvp. The ship you fly and the ship you kill. The setup I was using was sufficient for the task of killing miners and indies and escaping. The only reason I didnt escape was because I misread my scanner and uncloaked too early in range of the two recons - human error, not setup error, I had earlier killed 2 ships with that 'fail fit'.


Originally by: Merdaneth
Kill numbers mean nothing to me out of context. However, ship setups are your own choice, and some of them tell me you could use improvement in that department. If you need improvement there, perhaps you could use it with your hunting tactics as well.

The ship setup is not important to the topic of this thread other then lock time. The issue is its almost impossible to catch an aware target, even with a 1k scan res. Once I have it scrambled invariably it will die. The issue is the catch not the kill.


Originally by: Merdaneth
Bravery is not required, to each his own playstyle. However, your point was that your fits *didn't work for your tasks*, that you were frustrated about losing targets. Seeing your fits suggests to me that your hunting style can use a bit of overhauling as well.

No my point was that even with a 1k scan res, on a small ship built specifically for tackling ships using stealth or fast lock or infini point scram, the target is able to evade the scramble altogether too easily. It has nothing to do with kill setup or tactics other then I dont kill random people.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:55:00 - [239]
 

Look at this real life example:

Im in an arazu with 900 scan res. I spot a retriever ahead of me hit the gate. I jump after him. I load in system, hes accelerating to warp. I have to:

double click space.
ctrl target him after hitting sensor boosters.
hit my scram.
Hes gone just before it hits.

I chase him to gate. He sits there. I sit there. If I fire or scram he jumps. If I jump he warps away. If I wait for him to jump he gets the drop and will warp off just before my scram hits. My only option is to sit there and wait for backup or warp off.

Enough example. I have an interceptor. I jump into system with hulk mining at belt. My icon shows up and hulk brings in drones even before I get to load screen. I warp to belt 20 min, the hulk has gone.

Please explain a fit that will defeat these two scenarios?

Valerius
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2009.03.27 12:07:00 - [240]
 

Ok first off, I think I qualify as an empire war griefer, not that it really matters but you guys seem to want to point fingers so there is the shoot me sign straight away.

Back to the topic then, considering current game mechanics it IS too easy to get clear away from PvP, an empire war dec really means "stop carebearing guys or you may lose your ship" but currently it's more like "watch local like a hawk and never ever will you die". If you are out mining/missioning during a war dec you really are beging to be wasted! Possible courses to "fix" this "issue" is as Ziona said, either remove local all together or atleast remove it so that the system doesn't "see" you as long as you are cloaked, which at the same time would get some more use to being in a cloaker recon.

I've always liked empire PvP, you never know what awaits you on the other end of it. It may be some random noob in his shiny new t1 light pulse fitted navy apoc or it might just be the uberness incarnate PvPer from next door in his officer fit t2 shuttle of doom. With that said a lot of kills are still noobships, t1 frigs/cruisers and ofc barges haulers and stuff such as that, but every now and then you find just the right corp with the right mindset to fight back and you start clapping your hands. The war I am currently involved in sees the enemy mass up 10-15 guys in PvP ships easily, we still get some kills but so do they and all is fun....

Also to the guy spamming the first page with "don't dec 500 man noob alliance then cuz they are all noobs", well, if they are such noobs they shouldn't be in an alliance, if they can't defend themselves they shouldn't be in an alliance, if they don't want to become a target they really shouldn't make themselves into one!

Val out

p.s. Ziona, love what you did with privs early on, too bad it went downhill after the dec nerf, yes I'm an ex privy, from the time before alliance formation, and damn proud off it


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