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sylvester stallowned
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:12:00 - [151]
 

At last! This is such a needed change, Even before the nano-nerf falcons were overpowered, since then it makes it impossible to chase down a falcon with fast support that is sat at 150-200k away jamming.

What other recon in game has a standard fit with no form of buffer? None, apart from the falcon.

Now with the change, I just hope that this will bring falcons into the 40-60k range to be 100% effective at jamming (with rigs) This will force them to maybe fit 2 large shield extenders like most other recons have to.

CCP, please consider ECM rigs in your balancing here.

Also how about introducing a rig for ECCM? There are very few options to make ECCM viable at the moment.

Angelica Claes
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:14:00 - [152]
 

Good CCP killed last Caldari ship - falcon. Continue in the same spirit. You soon will lose all subscribers, from for that that methodically kill race behind race. Now you killed Caldari there are no ships for PvP

Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:15:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: sylvester stallowned
it makes it impossible to chase down a falcon with fast support that is sat at 150-200k away jamming.

It seems that you've missed Apocryph scan changes.

Sebea
Sniggerdly
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:15:00 - [154]
 

angry goons itt.

seriously, its about time the falcon took it in the ass, every other recon has been brutally ****d over the past 2 years.

Look at the poor pilgrim. LOOK AT IT.

Now it will have a buddy in station to keep it company.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:16:00 - [155]
 

/support.

shantaa
Caldari
Chronos Evolution
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:17:00 - [156]
 

Big thumbs up for the Scorpion change, the Scorpion has needed a weapons bonus for a long time.

As for the falcon and rook, I appreciate they are overpowered with their 250km jamming range. But the rook is the combat recon and should rightfully take the role of short range brawler. The falcon however is a fleet recon, a fleet support orientated ship not a combat ship. As such is better suited to weaker long range hide and seek style jamming.

Astal Atlar
Caldari
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:20:00 - [157]
 

I can't believe what i read...
falcon and rook are good as they are,if the changes ccp consider are aplied they will efectively kill the ewar,who need a falcon arround 80km when you can shot it in seconds well in range of most of your fleet,ecm is good as it is right now,it i just the people who don't know how to fight and whine.
And what is the use for my scorp being with more dps this is not his role and while other fleet bs are snaiping from 150+ he will be just killed unable to jam the enemy bs what is his role right now.
This is insanity honestly.....

Ubidak
Amarr Research Lads
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:20:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Ubidak on 24/03/2009 20:24:50
If you feel that separation of ECM boats between long and close ranged is inevitable, make it at least other way around: rook for close and falcon for long. This kind of change may make rooks more popular for fleet fights, while falcon will mostly maintain its current role. Doing it the way you propose now will render both ships almost useless, especially falcon.
Don't really care about flying coffins called scorpions.

Edit: you may consider introducing a skill for the ship sensor strength increase as a counter-ecm measure.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:20:00 - [159]
 

I would first like to say, I appreciate CCP looking into this and I think the changes proposed so far are genius. I feel that the changes put the ECM boats directly in line with the rest of the recons, as well as other battleship/cruisers/etc.

To those that think these changes are ridiculous, I would like to point out a few things here:

1) Comparing the Falcon to the Rapier... As it stands now, the Rapier has just under 300 LESS effective hit points than the Falcon (all skills at 5)
The Rapier has 1 more low slot, but 1 less mid slot than the Falcon.
If you put 2x LSE II's on the Falcon, it has more shield HP than the Rapier.
If you fit it for speed, yes, it will go a little bit slower than the Minmatar Recon, but seeing as how Minmatar have higher base speeds and are the race that for all general purposes, are meant to go faster, it sort of makes sense. It'll (Falcon) will be in line with the rest of the Recons as far as speed goes.

2) At the "Arazus and Pilgrims are crap and no one flies them" comment... lol? Learn to play outside of a 300 man blob?

3) I have to say, a 600+ dps Battleship that can also completely take another ship or two out of a fight, still ridiculous.

4) This is going to be an insane revitalization for the Rook. The fact that it will (with the proposed changes) be able to fight with HAM's and Drones and still jam at around 60km is pretty insane.

5) The most important part of this, is it doesn't turn these ECM ships into invulnerable wtf pwn machines. The fact that you'll actually be able to fight back against Falcon's and the like, is a godsend.

As for some more feedback, are you (CCP) looking at the removal of sig amps from the game possibly?
And on top of that, will there be some sort of balance factor with ECCM modules? As it is right now, Every battle I've flown in with ECCM when I ran into a Falcon, I'm still jammed all to hell and removed from the fight, it would be nice if the "counter" to ECM actually worked a bit. Just my only gripe with this.

CCP wins yet again, and to everyone who is crying about these proposed changes, learn to fly a recon with skill, kk ^.^

-Sarge

But Sects
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:21:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Jedziah
ECM ships in their current state neither swing the course of a fight or win a fight.

THEY PREVENT FIGHTS

CCP, today you have made the best step for many a year. Even surpassing the great work of Quantum Rise.

One comment I have to you Caldari whining chaps is how much of a beast the Scorpion will become with a RoF bonus on torps and 8 mid slots for PvP.

700 dps with drones and just under a 2k dps tank will make the Scorpion a real dark horse PvP battleship.


This is probably one of the dumbest things I have read on the forums, so first off, congratulations.

Now on to my point:

Since when did ECM prevent fights? You mean your trying to do sneaky ninja lone ranger solo stuff <.< >.> and a falcon shows up while your ganking that BS and now you can't fight? Wait... you mean that poor ratter called in a friend who used electronic warfare to escape your gank? OMG HOW OVERPOWERED. Your enemy brings ecm friends, bring ECM counters (sniping turret boats or *gasp* your own ecm). Its not a single player game. And please dont say "omg but they have like over 9000 falcons!" cause a fleet of falcons is garbage, and everyone knows that. I dont know where people fly that they run into these supposed 200 man falcon gangs, but I'd like to see it first hand.

Secondly, a Scorpion "dark horse PvP battleship" lol.

Missiles are absolute garbage. Plain and simple, with terrible module lag now the mainstay of fleet fights you need ships that can immediately put a whole in someones ship, and missiles dont do that. Yeah you can fit a nice buffer on a scorp if you want to neglect your ecm, but then whats the point cause i can buffer the hell out of an abby and get much more DPS. "sustained tank" is a laughable joke unless your main fleet battles consist of you fighting against a 50+ gang of guristas setting up a blockade in Motsu. From your Alliances sweet battleclinic stats I can tell you guys are real pro pvp'ers too. You fly that darkhorse scorp and see how it works out.


Ryd'Ia
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:25:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: musgrattio
Edited by: musgrattio on 24/03/2009 18:22:57
The general idea is fine, DO NOT GO OVERBOARD. We still need a ECM boat that can jam around 200km, and I think we'd all agree that needs to be the Falcon. If you want to make the Rook a close range ship, fine, but recons, in general, especially cloaking recons, are generally not going to be used at very short ranges. Keep the Falcon's range as it is, lower its strength, give the Rook more missile damage, change sig amps to where the Rook would be an excellent mid range damage dealer and ECM boat. Scorp changes are great, the Kitsune is really fine tbh.

edit: I'll explain. The Falcon is the ship you use for probing/cynos, so you generally don't fit weapons on it, and even if you do, they're useless. So you're completely changing the ship here, you're forcing it to go short range, with basically no defenses. Don't do that. Keep cloaking recons long range. Simply forcing the Falcon to jam in its falloff would be a welcome change. Something like 80km optimal/80km falloff with lvl 4 jamming skills would be perfect for the Falcon, especially if Sig Distortion Amps have a 5% effect to optimal/falloff, and you keep ECM strength rigs. Falcons will still be able to jam at long ranges, but they'll have to fit specifically for it, and since it's falloff, it's not a sure jam every time.

Change ECM optimal to a base of 50km, base falloff of 50km.

A Rook with these bonuses would be optimal

20% bonus to ECM strength per level
5% bonus to shield capacity per level
5% bonus to Heavy/Heavy Assault Missile Velocity per level
5% bonus to Heavy/Heavy Assault ROF per level

Falcon:

10% bonus to ECM optimal per level
10% bonus to ECM strength per level
96% to 100% Cloak bonus
10% bonus to ECM falloff per level

There you go, you have 2 ships that while nerfed, are still very, very useful.


TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU MUSGRATTIO....PLEASE CCP, You need to keep the Falcon has a long range jammer...

Regards,

Ryd'Ia

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:28:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Generally the ECM optimal range is a little too long with massive optimal ranges possible which would place the ECM specialised ships so far out of the fight to be almost completely safe but suffer no effective hit quality decrease. To bring them closer to the fight we are looking at swapping the base optimal and falloff ranges so at the longer ranges jammers would be operating more in falloff and hence have a lower chance of 'hitting' with their jammers at the extreme ranges.


Very bad idea. To be effective enough at jamming to be worth bringing to a fight, an ECM ship is forced to use all of its mid slots for ECM, which means zero tank. Forcing ECM ships in even closer than just removing the ECM bonus would make ECM even more of a suicide job than it is now. The moment you fail a jam cycle (and you will), you insta-pop. The ONLY defense you have against getting insta-popped is to be out of range of every single un-jammed hostile ship on the grid.

Additionally, cut ECM range and damps become stupidly overpowered, since they're now operating at the same ranges, but damps have zero failure chance.

Quote:
The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example.


Bad idea. Remember the reason for SDAs in the first place? As much as I hate being forced to use all of my low slots on them, if you make this change, you'll be right back to the old problem of the random multispectral on every ship.

Also a problem with this plan: using lows for tanking does not work. Not only do the ECM ships lack the low slots for more than a token armor tank, but how many Caldari pilots have the armor tank skills (or are willing to train them for so few ships)?


The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges.

Quote:
Summary Falcon changes

- ECM Strength Bonus increased from 20 to 25% per level
- ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed (52km optimal / 81km falloff w/ 2*SDA IIs)
- Increase in general manoeuvrability (might give agility bonus to it to replace the ECM optimal range bonus)


Poor changes. If you're going to force the Falcon in close, at least give it some useful weapons. 3x launchers, 5% ROF/level, 40m3 drone bay like the other recons. An agility bonus is just worthless, if you're ever in a position where you have to rely on it, you're going to be dead within seconds.
Quote:

Summary Rook Changes

- ECM strength bonus decreased to 15% per level
- ECM Optimal Range bonus decreased to 15% per level (92km optimal / 81km falloff)
- 5% Heavy/Heavy Assault missile velocity per recon ship level added (105km range with heavy missiles at max skills)
- 25m3 drone bay / 25 mbit bandwidth added


Major nerf. Do you really hate the Rook or something? It's already trash (just like the Lachesis and Huginn) because it gains no ewar advantage over the force recon (while dps is still poor), and now you want to nerf it even more?

Worst of all, the changes don't even make any sense. The Rook is the combat recon, it should be up close and doing damage (as the drone bay suggests), not sitting at extreme range with nothing but ECM.

Citizen Koko
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:30:00 - [163]
 

Awesome changes. Should make flying ECMships much more interesting. Thanks!

Loki L'Odin
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:30:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: But Sects
Originally by: Jedziah
Sensible stuff...


This is probably one of the dumbest things I have read on the forums, so first off, congratulations.




Pretty much how I see it. Actually re-typed it for you.

Linkage

You can find it on a google search too, no need for the dross on battleclinic, would talk about your stats....but wait hiding behind a alt...interesting.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:31:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Angelica Claes
Good CCP killed last Caldari ship - falcon. Continue in the same spirit. You soon will lose all subscribers, from for that that methodically kill race behind race. Now you killed Caldari there are no ships for PvP


Respeccing ftw Rolling Eyes

I almost wouldn't mind CCP breaking the ECM ships if they were fixing the other EW ships - particularly the Gallante.

Jedziah
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:31:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: But Sects
Originally by: Jedziah
ECM ships in their current state neither swing the course of a fight or win a fight.

THEY PREVENT FIGHTS

CCP, today you have made the best step for many a year. Even surpassing the great work of Quantum Rise.

One comment I have to you Caldari whining chaps is how much of a beast the Scorpion will become with a RoF bonus on torps and 8 mid slots for PvP.

700 dps with drones and just under a 2k dps tank will make the Scorpion a real dark horse PvP battleship.


This is probably one of the dumbest things I have read on the forums, so first off, congratulations.

Now on to my point:

Since when did ECM prevent fights? You mean your trying to do sneaky ninja lone ranger solo stuff <.< >.> and a falcon shows up while your ganking that BS and now you can't fight? Wait... you mean that poor ratter called in a friend who used electronic warfare to escape your gank? OMG HOW OVERPOWERED. Your enemy brings ecm friends, bring ECM counters (sniping turret boats or *gasp* your own ecm). Its not a single player game. And please dont say "omg but they have like over 9000 falcons!" cause a fleet of falcons is garbage, and everyone knows that. I dont know where people fly that they run into these supposed 200 man falcon gangs, but I'd like to see it first hand.

Secondly, a Scorpion "dark horse PvP battleship" lol.

Missiles are absolute garbage. Plain and simple, with terrible module lag now the mainstay of fleet fights you need ships that can immediately put a whole in someones ship, and missiles dont do that. Yeah you can fit a nice buffer on a scorp if you want to neglect your ecm, but then whats the point cause i can buffer the hell out of an abby and get much more DPS. "sustained tank" is a laughable joke unless your main fleet battles consist of you fighting against a 50+ gang of guristas setting up a blockade in Motsu. From your Alliances sweet battleclinic stats I can tell you guys are real pro pvp'ers too. You fly that darkhorse scorp and see how it works out.




Wow, I would love to leave alone what you just said but you are just a special petal.

Unless all of your fights consist of 250 vs 250 then it doesn't really matter what BS you are in, it matters what your name begins with for the most part.

I never said it would be 'better' than an Abaddon. However 700dps, several utility highs for heavy neut / smartbombs and a monster active tank cannot be frowned at.

A subtle mix of a sub 1k dps tank and a mix of ECM is going to make a savage ship of the Scorpion, regardless of your tear filled words.

Secondly, you obviously have no idea who we are or what we do so I cannot even begin to be bothered to explain how a Falcon prevents a fight.

Post on your main on here, no one will hurt you for doing so.


Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:32:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

Additionally, cut ECM range and damps become stupidly overpowered, since they're now operating at the same ranges, but damps have zero failure chance.



False for lots of reasons. As you very well know.

General Coochie
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:33:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: General Coochie on 24/03/2009 20:36:39
Looks good IMO.

Falcon getting stronger feels weird, but its the range thats always been the real problem.

As for ppl saying falcon lacks tank to be short range. You can fit a tank! Just as all the other recons have to. Rapier fits LSEs, Pilgrim fits plates, Curse fits LSEs, Lachesis and Arazu also need some kind of tank. Welcome to the other recons world; affecting only one ship at the time. (well falcons still be affecting 2-3 I guess even with a nice mid slot tank)

The falcon with stronger ECM would need less jammers to be as effective as they been before, they can trade those fewer jammers for some mid slot tanking without a problem and they will still be more effective then all the other recons.


DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:35:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 24/03/2009 21:10:03
Edited by: DNSBLACK on 24/03/2009 20:37:14
OMG leave them alone please. HERE is a suggestion.


BUFFFFFFFFF ECCM, BUFFFFFFFFFFFF ECCM . Make the wine nerf babies in this post use one of there slots of there super gank boats to fight the ecm of a falcon. BUFF moduals before you nerf an entire platform for phuk sake.

Make FC have to counter the ecm boats. I have dedicated pilots who love and fly the falcon cause they dont want to fight they like the role of the jammer ship. They like seeing 0% on kill mails. They are role driven. To all the cry babies go find one of those pilots and recruit them and you have solved your perma jam problem.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:36:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: General Coochie
Looks good IMO.

Falcon getting stronger feels weird, but its the range thats always been the real problem.

As for ppl saying falcon lacks tank to be short range. You can fit a tank! Just as all the other recons have to. Rapier fits LSEs, Pilgrim fits plates, Curse fits LSEs, Lachesis and Arazu also need some kind of tank.

The falcon with stronger ECM would need less jammers to be as effective as they been before, they can trade those fewer jammers for some mid slot tanking without a problem and they will still be more effective then all the other recons.




This.

Everyone saying the Falcon has no tank, that's because YOU fit no tank, not because it can't be done. Sacrifice some EWar and slap on a tank just like every single recon has to do.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:36:00 - [171]
 

ecm are fine as they are rr bs breakers, long range fleet engagements etc.


they just need to be more expensive to counter the popular use of them



Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:37:00 - [172]
 

As for the correct nerf: first of all, see my sig. Don't give in to the whiners who can't figure out how to deal with Falcons. Now, once you decide to focus on balance, you can make some constructive changes.


Falcon:

No change. Instead of nerfing the Falcon, fix the problems with your game environment that encourage blobbing and give no incentive to leave the recon alts at home.

Rook:

Make it a mini Scorpion. Change the ECM optimal bonus to a missile ROF bonus, add a 25m3 drone bay. Ideally, the Rook would get something similar to the marauder/Sansha trick: 150% bonus to ECM, only allowed to fit 3x ECM modules and no SDAs. That would allow the Rook to fit MWD, 3x ECM, and have three slots left for tank/tackle while keeping its lows free for BCUs. The result: a close-range combat ship that still uses ECM as a primary defense, but that has enough dps/tank to actually survive in the close-range environment.

Scorpion:

Can go either way, your proposed changes are a major nerf to the Scorpion as a fleet ship, but a major boost to it as a solo/small-gang ship. Either ship would be fine, the only question is which one the players want more.

But if you're going to make it a close-range combat ship, it needs to gain a full 6x launcher hardpoints as well as the damage bonus.

Widow:

Just scrap it already. It was a complete failure as an ECM ship, and you should consider the fact that you didn't even bother to mention it here a sign that it isn't supposed to be one.

Change the hull to the Rokh (make it use Scorpion BPOs if you have to keep invention straight, just don't make me look at the ugly hull anymore), paint it black, give it 6x guns (8x highs), 10% hybrid optimal, 5% shield resists on the battleship skill, 5% hybrid damage on the black ops skill.

Thoregras
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:38:00 - [173]
 

Do CCP really have a clue what they are doing?


Increase the chance that Falcon can jam you, when they can already permanently jam multiple ships..

Yeah bring them in a little closer but they are still going to be engaging at 100km ish how is that "close range brawler"

When are dampners gonna get some love, specifically the ships that are designed to use Dampeners? Why cant my arazu negate 4 ships from a fight? why can it only just manage to negate 1 ship?

If your going to balance the ships do it properly stop being so wishy washy about it. You obviously have no clear goal about what you actually wanna do with the whole of Ewar

What about sticking scripts in ECM modules like has been done with dampeners? What about actually make a sensible balance for once? Oh and try and keep the bonus's right to the race and back story..



General Coochie
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:38:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: General Coochie on 24/03/2009 20:39:37
Originally by: DNSBLACK
OMG leave them alone please. HERE is a suggestion.


BUFFFFFFFFF ECCM, BUFFFFFFFFFFFF ECCM . Make the wine nerf babies in this post use one of there slots of there super gank boats to fight the ecm of a falcon. BUFF moduals before you buff an entire platform for **** sake.

Make FC have to counter the ecm boats. I have dedicated pilots who love and fly the falcon cause they dont want to fight they like the role of the jammer ship. They like seeing 0% on kill mails. They are role driven. To all the cry babies go find one of those pilots and recruit them and you have solved your perma jam problem.


I could live with that IF the min recons got a webber strength bonus, gallente recons a 7.5 or even 10% damp bonus. So they are also really useful recons. So that you actually have to really counter those ewars to. Why is it that only ecm should be the only ewar a gang needs to setup against to counter? No reason at all actually.




Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:39:00 - [175]
 

Sounds like a plan.

Scorpion buff plz thx omg.


EgoMan
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:40:00 - [176]
 

Another one bites the dust...because the cry babies always prevail. I like the idea that the rook can be a more effective ship but then again in a roaming cruiser gang I already use one with great results. It's never a good thing when a nerf comes down the pipe. Instead of becoming smarter than your enemy and equipping eccm and bringing your own falcons we will just make them useless so that eve warfare can become one dimensional and only characters with hacs and battleships can roam around owning everyting. Same crap different day.Rolling Eyes

El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:40:00 - [177]
 

Rook dronebay: welcome to eve versatility, caldari pilots.

Scorpion: this ship should really keep its range, so it is still viable for fleets.

Spindeln
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:42:00 - [178]
 

Swapping optimal and falloff is brilliant.

Range really is the number one issue with ECM, tightly followed by the way too safe life of cloaky falcons. I would probably have cut the range even further, but apart from that it looks a solid plan.


Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:45:00 - [179]
 

"Close range brawler."

How am I supposed to offer constructive criticism when you are starting with off with such an exceptionally terrible idea?

Wait, no let me imagine for a second decloaking next to someone and attempting to jam them. My agility and base velocity bonus will keep me alive!

Jedziah
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:47:00 - [180]
 

Quote:
The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus


As per this comment,

One would expect that the Pilgrim receives a higher energy emissions bonus over the Curse to make up for a shorter range.

This is however not the case and should probably be brought in line with the Falcon.


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