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Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:39:00 - [931]
 

Originally by: Research Rachel
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The Rapier with 3 e-war mods is 100% effective against 3 targets. The Falcon with 3 ECM mods is still not 100% effective against 1 target.
The Rapier is 100 effective in reducing speed by 60%. A Falcon has a 98% in 100% stopping someone from targeting. If you want to be fair lets make the Falcon work 100% of the time but be only 60% effective. So you will only take 40% damage when you jam a ship. And lets drop your range to under 40km also. Now we are fair.


if your a cepter/cruiser then yes, maybe a falcon can jam you 100% of the time, but seriously... anything bigger than a cruiser, hacs, bc's, bs's, recons, even in a max skilled falcon they have a hard time jamming.

I know, i fly a maxed skilled Falcon and i know what sort of jams i get. If people fit ECCM, i'd have serious problems getting a jam.

You do realise you have to relock a target after the cycle? Wink


PPL only remember the times they were jammed not the time the jams failed.

Its understandable but its also misleading, my main has falcon and jamming at max and i have eveb used faction jammers in the past and i know how often jams fail and how many jammers i need to apply on just a single priority ship to jam it. That is another thing ppl forget, just how many jammers you need to alocate to a target to jam it...

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.27 09:49:00 - [932]
 

im not trawling through 32 pages, the first was enough. CCP, you want to nerf the falcon, cause lets face it, thats what this thread is really about, the other classes just have to follow suit, Take a good look at the caldari race and think about making it a viable pvp race that doesnt rely on having 5 mates with you to lock down your target and make sure you dont die before the opposition outtanks and outdps your ship. problem with caldari has always been the same, you cant tank if you want to fit a mwd/point/web and maybe a cap booster, and god forbid a drone bay. You want to nerf the falcon fine, but give us something back, not a 10% hybrid bonus range on the falcon, jeez.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:49:00 - [933]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 27/03/2009 10:51:18
Originally by: Research Rachel
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The Rapier with 3 e-war mods is 100% effective against 3 targets. The Falcon with 3 ECM mods is still not 100% effective against 1 target.
The Rapier is 100 effective in reducing speed by 60%. A Falcon has a 98% in 100% stopping someone from targeting. If you want to be fair lets make the Falcon work 100% of the time but be only 60% effective. So you will only take 40% damage when you jam a ship. And lets drop your range to under 40km also. Now we are fair.


if your a cepter/cruiser then yes, maybe a falcon can jam you 100% of the time, but seriously... anything bigger than a cruiser, hacs, bc's, bs's, recons, even in a max skilled falcon they have a hard time jamming.

I know, i fly a maxed skilled Falcon and i know what sort of jams i get. If people fit ECCM, i'd have serious problems getting a jam.

You do realise you have to relock a target after the cycle? Wink


We try it. My friend used ECCM on Moros, and i just fitted 6 gallente jammer on my Falcon. I permajammed the Moros with overheat ECCM 8 minutes along.
So you fail. That was not a cruiser not a ceptor, just a little capital with almost 100 sensor str, without overheated ECCM over 86 sensor str.
So this ECCM is crap if a 15 jammer strenght Falcon can jamming against them, when he use racial jammers.

An ECCM Solution:

+100% sensor str and when someone who use an ECCM and the jamming is fail him, make a counter effect and the jammer lost their targeted ships for 20 sec.

labtecwar
Knights of the Posing Meat
Something Posing As Meat
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:49:00 - [934]
 

when will the hate end ccp or why dont you just erase caldari an have done with it Rolling Eyes

Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:51:00 - [935]
 

Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 27/03/2009 10:50:52
Another simple solution for long and strong jamm problem:
- add optimal penalty to current SDAs.

Nothing else need to be changed.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:19:00 - [936]
 

Over my time playing , it seems like every thing i train gets nerfed .I have been in missions where 3 drones and 6 cruise missile launchers cant kill a frigate .So it feels like cruise 5 , all the drones 5's . and now Recon 5 have been a huge waste of time .Your "Improvements" havent really done anything positive for me at all .

Caldari ships are for the most part ,slower and weaker . but here and there they have a jewel of a ship to fly .Falcon is one of them and if you make it more killable then you all need to "Improve" the insurance system (It needs done anyway , regardless).Scorpion is an awsome recon type ship , but as a BS its paper thin and just not a close range ship . If it is forced to be at close range then it will probably become obsolete .

If you must nerf them , consider reducing the midslots . so they can fit less jammers . or just "limit" ecm hardpoints . Remember , in any fight , both parties can fly the Falcon . Its not really un-balanced at all when both sides have the same options

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.27 12:52:00 - [937]
 

Uhm, it might be me (not at all having read the whole thread) but how is this a nerf?

Sylar McIntyr
Caldari
Konstrukteure der Zukunft
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:15:00 - [938]
 

Edited by: Sylar McIntyr on 27/03/2009 13:15:32
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Uhm, it might be me (not at all having read the whole thread) but how is this a nerf?




Falcon with less range .. well might be okay.
Falcon with Hybrid Guns - lolfitting and loads of funny Lossmails. CCP face ist, few ppl do fit anything offensive in the Falcons highs anyway its like a little carrier.

Rook changes seem to be okay.

Close-range Scorpion ... a cloe-range BS in a race that is used to fight at distance ?!?
-> Scorpions will be good baits but dead fish in the water Sad
A Sniper bonus might be a nice option to keep it viable otherwise my Char will be nothing more than a off battlefield support ... hauling ammo to my mates or using a overpriced ship to give cynos

And im looking forward to this years fall loots of new MMO`s storming the market some even dark and cold as EVE Razz

edit: spelling

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:19:00 - [939]
 

In a 0.0/fleet environment you might be correct but for small gangs or solo work it doesn't really make a difference. In fact if you look at recon wolfpacks you lose absolutely nothing and gain some dps, it's not like falcons actually had any good use for their high slots other than hull/armor RR.

Sylar McIntyr
Caldari
Konstrukteure der Zukunft
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:29:00 - [940]
 

And thats exactly the point - 0.0 warfare is okay with ECM as it is now. Lowsec dewllers are the ones whining about Falcons and being 'perma'jammed. To make a great difference you have to birng lots of Falcons in 0.0 in Low sec 1 is enoagh and i guess by now ever pirate has ate least 1 alt in range at anytime not to mention his corpmates in the next system.

The times i was piloting a Flacon i usually died or barely managed to jam the HAC chewing on me for 3 cycles and just yesterday i nearly fried my medium rack whil trying to jamm a Meag with 3 gallente jammers on him - but no chance his ECCM work the whole engagment (no whining here he had at least 1 if not 2 slots dedicated to counter me so its fine and fair here). i geus it would be an easier solution to give sentrys in lowsec a larger optmal say 250kms + 50 km falloff to keep those pesty Falcons away

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:29:00 - [941]
 

Originally by: Hun Jakuza


We try it. My friend used ECCM on Moros, and i just fitted 6 gallente jammer on my Falcon. I permajammed the Moros with overheat ECCM 8 minutes along.
So you fail. That was not a cruiser not a ceptor, just a little capital with almost 100 sensor str, without overheated ECCM over 86 sensor str.
So this ECCM is crap if a 15 jammer strenght Falcon can jamming against them, when he use racial jammers.


Fraps proving what you say pls OR YOU ARE LYING.

8 MINS of constantly being jammed even with a rack of racials against you is highly unlikly, what happened is you proly got a cycle now and again and exhagerated it in a 8 min perma jam just for the forums.

Aen Sidhe
Caldari
The Deliberate Forces
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:33:00 - [942]
 

I'm very sorry, but I'm too lazy to read all this 30+ page thread. If someone got this idea before me, it's good.

Disclaimer: all numbers below were taken by random.

Maybe CCP make scripts for SDA? Do you want a 300 km optimal? Get the script, but use 9 jam str on racial. Do you want 30+ jam str? Get another scripts, but fly with 50 km optimal. Something like sensor booster.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:46:00 - [943]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 27/03/2009 13:56:47

0blivion rage
Posted - 2009.03.27 14:20:00 - [944]
 

:( finishing recon 4 in 3 hours. thats not even funny... last time i had just gotten into a ceptor :( ccp hate me.
I'm just goona train for mini now, they seen nurf free atm and i don't trust enough to start flying amarr.
Do you HAVE to do this? :( it's like the only decent pvp ship for caldari.

Earl Brooks
Posted - 2009.03.27 14:26:00 - [945]
 

ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:31:00 - [946]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 27/03/2009 15:34:15
Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad


You mean that they are now as bad in gang v gang combat as the rest of the recons and will never be used in it just like the others are not?...correct.Rolling Eyes

They are also the worst ewar to use in solo pvp because by the time you have fitted a mwd, point, web, just 1 extender and a invul or even 2 extenders you have enough room for maybe 1 or 2 ECM units that are race specific (and as you know their are 4 races) but also are chance based so if you do find a ship of the right race they can and will fail (unless caldari recons are going to be religated to "perma" jamming noob frigs) so your screwed any way.....Laughing

At least with nano their was a plan, this is just butchery and the removal of a ship because of whines with no thought to what it will do afterwards.

WORST THOUGHT OUT NERF EVER.

Research Rachel
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:03:00 - [947]
 

Originally by: Hun Jakuza

We try it. My friend used ECCM on Moros, and i just fitted 6 gallente jammer on my Falcon. I permajammed the Moros with overheat ECCM 8 minutes along.
So you fail. That was not a cruiser not a ceptor, just a little capital with almost 100 sensor str, without overheated ECCM over 86 sensor str.
So this ECCM is crap if a 15 jammer strenght Falcon can jamming against them, when he use racial jammers.



and the moros was in siege too, wasn't it? Rolling Eyes

no Falcon pilot fits 6 jammers of the same race anyway so your argument is pointless!

i know from experience that a carrier with 76 point is extremely hard to jam with a max falcon pilot, and for the record you can't get 15 point on a falcon, 14.6 is the highest if you use rigs but then there isn't much use using rigs since 2 rigs barely gives you 0.5 point bonus.

charlie ZA
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:13:00 - [948]
 

Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad

./signed

Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:21:00 - [949]
 

Im curious about the Widow tbh...close range brawler? Lol...

So now not only do i have no range, no tank, and no dps, but now im also going to have to be ULTRA close range, with no range, no tank, and no dps. Oh...and crap lock speed.

Bring on Amrr bs 5

Yonker
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:22:00 - [950]
 

The best solution is to change the base jam time to like 5 seconds (and increase it based on ECM ship bonuses up to say... 10sec (maybe 15 with perfect skills).

Then make ECCM useful outside of purely ECM countering... like make it give you +1 max targets or +2 for T2... that way people don't feel its a waste to fit.

Then, change it so that jamming isn't % based but strength based. I.e. if you have 14 jam strength you can't jam a BS with 20 sensor strength you'd need to apply a second jam module (This would serve to make Multi-spec jammers actually useful).

Or instead of having a static strength make it so that it fires a type of projectile which eventually jams a target when it gets to the target's sensor strength. Example: Tech I jammers reduce the target's sensor strength by 5 with a 2 second recycle. It takes 10 seconds of firing your jammer module to jam a Battlship with a 25 sensor strength. If the ship is using ECCM they have a sensor strength of 40 so it would take 16 seconds to jam the ship.

There... its less annoying to people because it doesn't last as long. ECCM is a useful module on its own, on top of making it harder to jam... and it removes the random factor

Lorz0r
Imperial Syndicate Forces
Posted - 2009.03.27 17:20:00 - [951]
 

Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad


No it's not. It's killing off small gang warfare entirely. It's so hard to counteract in a small gang that it's just not worth going and roaming at all.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2009.03.27 17:35:00 - [952]
 

Originally by: Lorz0r
Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad


No it's not. It's killing off small gang warfare entirely. It's so hard to counteract in a small gang that it's just not worth going and roaming at all.


I somewhat agree but the current proposal doesn't help small gangs all that much. Its hard to make exact guesses at this point but probably falcon will retain most of its glory but at 100-140km (maybe more with an eos and centurion). Not really a big help for the small gang situation (think 5 people or less) in my book.

Of course outlaws will need twice the amount of falcons because they need to stay at 151km+ and as such be in falloff considerably. Yeah, good times. Crying or Very sad

DMF KingBob
Posted - 2009.03.27 17:58:00 - [953]
 

ecm is not a part of complexity it is an simple one way win tactic
and the falcon spam atm is pure suckage

ecm beats turrerts better then an tracking disruptor
ecm turns turret disruptors off
ecm turns 50% of the drone control off
ecm turns remote support off
ecm turns webber scambler and target painter off
ecm turns neutralizer and nos off
ecm turns missilelaunchers off and wors better then defender-missiles
ecm can be turned off by neutralizer but wich neutralizer works at over 100km perfectly ?
ecm = RSD at some situations
and this all in an ship wich can use an covert-op cloaking device

its very easy to see that ecm works on the false part of game mechanics and it should be changed to an remote breaker

then ecm is atm an Rock-Scissor-Paper-Chrusher

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.03.27 19:55:00 - [954]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/03/2009 19:55:57
TBFH I'm 100% behind these changes if they move 2-3 SDA's worth of power into the ship bonuses and give me the SDA slots back for brawling. It's still a pretty heavy nerf to remove its range, but... I'll get over it. I've asked it many times, but... here goes again:

CCP, what is the target jamming strength (in points, 9, 12, 14, 20, 200) of an unrigged Scorpion (20% bonus), and a Falcon (15% bonus) and a Widow (25% bonus).

-Liang

Sekundar Burnes
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2009.03.27 20:32:00 - [955]
 

I think a different approach is called for.

The problem isn't necessarily with the ships and their setup, it is the way jamming results are applied. Right now everything is binary - you either jam or you don't, and the duration is either 20 seconds or nothing.

Make the results scalable and you end up with a more satisfying result. I envision a table of results where you break anywhere from 100% to 10% of all locked targets, or 30 seconds to 5 seconds duration, based on the level of success. I'm sure that once people start thinking along these lines they can come up with even better results.

Doing this would push jamming more in line with the results seen with other weapons systems. It would also make defenses worth considering - that ECCM module might change the jam duration from 20 seconds to 10, allowing me to target that Rook and get drones on him.

The same sort of approach could eventually be applied to all other types of ECM, including drones.

---
Apologies if someone else already suggested this. I didn't want to wade through 32 pages of "Falcons suck!" vs. "Devs hate Caldari!!'

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.03.27 20:35:00 - [956]
 

Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad


Isn't the ultimate arbiter of whether or not something is working "as intended" the people who designed that thing?

In this case, CCP, who in implying there needs to be a change, is admitting that ECM is not working as intended?

-Karlemgne

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.03.27 20:54:00 - [957]
 

Edited by: Karlemgne on 27/03/2009 20:55:39

Originally by: Lorz0r
Originally by: Earl Brooks
ECM is fine and works as intended now. Evil or Very Mad


No it's not. It's killing off small gang warfare entirely. It's so hard to counteract in a small gang that it's just not worth going and roaming at all.


Amen.

ECM kills low-sec pvp. More and more we're forced to take out gangs of big ships, and big ships only.

Why? Because Battleships are the only ship class (besides the other mostly worthless recons) where ECCM can make a difference. And even then, as I've stated before, taking 1 ECCM means that you won't be perma jammed by a single Falcon, but will be by multiple Falcons (see Falcon spamage on tq). This means you've got to fit 2 ECCM, and thus forgo the ability to tackle! Yippie!

The results? Small cruiser and battlecruiser gangs are nearly impossible. The current number of Falcon "pilots" (aka alts) means that 70% of the time entire cruiser gangs are permajammed. You have similar results with most Battlecruiser gangs.

So YIPPIE! Battleship gangs in low-sec. Battleship gangs that, more often than not, require you to forgo tackle (and tank in the case of shield tankers) in favor of ECCM. That's right, everyone's fitting to counter ONE ship (no nothing is broken here).

And with those two ECCM fits good luck holding ships. Lots of stuff gets away, meaning a lot less fighting. Alternatively you'll see gangs with 4 Falcons... this means time to deagress and jump/dock. Again, combat avoided.

Currently, Falcons are just as bad as nanos were in low-sec:

1. You need to specifically fit your ships, ALL of them, to counter the Falcon.
2. The Falcon's EWAR, unlike the EWAR of the other recons, can be done at extreme range. And it turns EVERYTHING off on the target ship. It just doesn't hamper lock time/range like the dampener, it makes it impossible for the target to lock anything. It doesn't disrupt the tracking of turrets, it turns turrets off. It doesn't slowly kill your ability to use your mods by nerfing your cap, it turns ALL of your projection mods off--completely.
3. Falcons, like nanos, allow people to dictate when and where they fight, almost always. Have enough Falcon pilots you can get everyone away from a combat that's going south.
4. Falcons pilots themselves can get away fairly easily (as long as they aren't alt tabbing alts). "Look here comes the interceptors I'll just warp away."
5. As someone else pointed out, all of this on a ship that can fit a covert ops cloak.

Johan Sabbat
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 21:30:00 - [958]
 

Edited by: Johan Sabbat on 27/03/2009 21:32:50
Originally by: Karlemgne


Stuff and nonsense


So you're bitter because ECM affects your chosen play style?

ECCM does work, pop it on a Cerberus and snipe those Falcons. You'll soon scare them away.

I look forward to your new world of low-sec pvp; RR BS ftw...

Ellatan Deruimte
Surreal corp
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.03.27 22:06:00 - [959]
 

Originally by: Johan Sabbat
Edited by: Johan Sabbat on 27/03/2009 21:32:50
Originally by: Karlemgne


Stuff and nonsense


So you're bitter because ECM affects your chosen play style?

ECCM does work, pop it on a Cerberus and snipe those Falcons. You'll soon scare them away.

I look forward to your new world of low-sec pvp; RR BS ftw...


A Hac with eccm can be easily jammed, again not saying permajammed, but 2 out 3 cycles at best. Tested on an ishtar with eccm, not reliable at all.

Johan Sabbat
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.27 22:29:00 - [960]
 

Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte
Originally by: Johan Sabbat
Edited by: Johan Sabbat on 27/03/2009 21:32:50
Originally by: Karlemgne


Stuff and nonsense


So you're bitter because ECM affects your chosen play style?

ECCM does work, pop it on a Cerberus and snipe those Falcons. You'll soon scare them away.

I look forward to your new world of low-sec pvp; RR BS ftw...


A Hac with eccm can be easily jammed, again not saying permajammed, but 2 out 3 cycles at best. Tested on an ishtar with eccm, not reliable at all.


And how many volloys would it take from the Cerberus to send the Falcon from the field?



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