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Ellatan Deruimte
Surreal corp
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.03.26 17:54:00 - [871]
 

Edited by: Ellatan Deruimte on 26/03/2009 18:05:32
Great changes in my opinion. Falcons are overused at the moment both in gangs and in fleet combat. When the speed was nerfed and ecm range stayed the same, they got much safer because it took that much longer for an inty\vaga provide a warp in spot on top of them. Falcons that are fitted long range can operate at 200+ km, outside of optimals of most fleet battleships. Every single gang has falcons and they are the only effective ecm ship in the game. Arazu\Lachesis is barely used in 0.0 combat, Huginns with the web nerf got much less effective. Curse\Pilgrim are used primarily for their neuts, not TD, which pales in comparison to jammers. You need several TDs directed at one ship to just decrease it's effectiveness, while falcon can completely turn off several ships from much longer range.

Rooks are also practically not used in 0.0, because they are so much worse off then falcons without a cloak. It's nice to see a boost to rooks, making it a viable option again for smaller close range gangs.

Let me remind you that all other force recons are short range ships, and their ecm optimals are not even close to what Falcon's would be after the patch, so I don't understand your complaints.

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:06:00 - [872]
 

Edited by: GTC seller72 on 26/03/2009 18:11:34


Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte


Every single gang has falcons and they are the only effective ecm ship in the game. Arazu\Lachesis is barely used in 0.0 combat, Huginns with the web nerf got much less effective. Curse\Pilgrim are used primarily for their neuts, not TD, which pales in comparison to jammers. You need several TDs directed at one ship to just decrease it's effectiveness, while falcon can completely turn off several ships from much longer range.

Let me remind you that all other force recons are short range ships, and their ecm optimals are not even close to what Falcon's would be after the patch, so I don't understand your complaints.


Prenerf.

A list of the least used ships in gang v gang combat and all because of the range they operate in.

Arazu\Lachesis\Curse\Pilgrim\rapier\huggin.

Postnerf.

A list of the least used ships in gang v gang combat and all because of the range they operate in.

Arazu\Lachesis\Curse\Pilgrim\rapier\huggin\FALCON..


How can this be considered a "FIX".Rolling Eyes

Boost the other recons range for damps, TD'd, TC's and give SDA's the ability to effect them all instead of just ECM, but do not throw another recon on the scrap pile along with those already on it.

FS Bernulf
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:18:00 - [873]
 

in my opinion Eve should work like real life.

- that means that a Company wouldn't make a ship worse. they would improve it.
So if you make a short range jammer out of the rook you have to give it an incredible tank. and you have to be sure that the previous role of the rook can be done by the Falcon or the Scorpion.

- it means too that if there is something better avaiable a company would improve a product till it is worth something again.
So the other races should improve their Recons instead of nerfing the Caldary.

all in all would i introduce a new balancing method instead of the nerfs. i would start to improve every month or so one or two ships and / or Items.
that means that you give the ships better bonis (according to the points above) or the SDA gives boni on all E-War Items.
This system could be expanded to the introduction of new Ships or Items. whereas there haven't to be the same number of ships for each race cause there can be introduced an new ship for the other races a month later.

if you would do that then you had the posibility to balance the Game more natural. and to make the Game more interesting cause the ships woulden't be the same for ever.
And the best ist that you can introduce the changes with an story.

Ellatan Deruimte
Surreal corp
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:20:00 - [874]
 

Originally by: GTC seller72

Prenerf.

A list of the least used ships in gang v gang combat and all because of the range they operate in.

Arazu\Lachesis\Curse\Pilgrim\rapier\huggin.

Postnerf.

A list of the least used ships in gang v gang combat and all because of the range they operate in.

Arazu\Lachesis\Curse\Pilgrim\rapier\huggin\FALCON..


How can this be considered a "FIX".Rolling Eyes

Boost the other recons range for damps, TD'd, TC's and give SDA's the ability to effect them all instead of just ECM, but do not throw another recon on the scrap pile along with those already on it.


All it translates too is shorter range - you need a better tank on a falcon, means you lose some med slots and have to chose between jammers used and coordinate with other falcons on target distribution for ecm. The option of fitting 4 race jammers + multi as a backup will be gone. You would still operate outside of optimals of most ships and jammers will still be the most effective ecm module. The problem with other forms of ECM is not just their range, but effectiveness. You can damp a close range ship all you want, you can TD a missile or drone boat all you want, but in the end you are vulnerable to those ships nevertheless. Falcon shuts off all ships independent from their range and form of attack, it can always escape. Falcon is extremely hard to tackle and can easily overcome eccm modules on most ships short of other recons and capitals.

Lord Eremet
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:23:00 - [875]
 

Originally by: GTC seller72
Edited by: GTC seller72 on 26/03/2009 17:36:42
Originally by: Lord Eremet
Loving these changes to the Rook & Falcon, go ahead CCP and introduce them, don't let these falcon flying emo-raging people stop you. It is overpowered and they know it(They just forgot what ADAPTING really means).


If you knew what adapting means you would be killing falcons not crying about them.



Oh I'm sure am killing them with the character I'm doing 0.0 skirmishing with. We are countering hostile falcons with our own falcons, then we pop them. Unless they get away because of their insane range bonus not letting us tackle/bubble them before they warp.

When not having a visual/scan of all enemies in a hostile group we always assume they are in a falcon and eight times of ten that has so far been true. I see very little of other races recons. That should tell you something. I know they are somewhat broken and need to be fixed, but the falcon is to good.

Even when not expecting hostile falcons we usually have 1-3 of our own following us around anywhere we go just in case. But they make fights into ganks. I know that is ok for some people who wants pvp with "no" risk and its a easy way to inflate the killboard/ego with no risk kills. But I'm tired of it.


So what you 'said' about crying?


CCP: I think you not going far enough with the falcon changes, nerf it more pls. No 15% falloff to ECM range and lower the strength to only 15%. Then when all falcon alts stopped crying and stopped flying it you can after 6-9 months "boost" it again to 20%, if thats really needed.

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:44:00 - [876]
 

Edited by: GTC seller72 on 26/03/2009 18:51:46

Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte

The problem with other forms of ECM is not just their range, but effectiveness.


Rubbish, most of the modules like damps, TD's and TP's are regularly used on NON-bonused ships in gang v gang fighting becasue their gaurenteed effect works great on a ship with great tank and gank. How often do you see ECM on a non bonused gang ship?...

While the bonused recon ships for those systems are never used in gang v gang combat because the effect even bonused is not worth the lack of tank and gank recons have compared to the nonbonused ships. But if the other recons had longer range for those effects you can bet you would see them in gang fights.




Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte
You can damp a close range ship all you want


Your right and it works great as long as your not a idiot and decide to approach it...Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte
you can TD a missile or drone boat all you want


So TD aint good against missiles big whoop, drones auto aggro if your ecm'd btw and fof are missiles as well.



Mavrk
Minmatar
TOP GUHN
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:44:00 - [877]
 

In this part of the thread, no one see's your ideas. Welcome to the club.

Falcon gets a gun bonus. Thats FRIGGIN USELESS! If I want to snioper I'll take out an Eagle. But dont sully my Falcon witha GUN BONUS!! put on another ECM bonus. Its an EWAR SNIPER! Not a gun sniper! all changes aside its not bad but thats a waste of a bonus slot. Congrats you've made the falcon less effective at what its SUPPOSED TO DO in exchange for 20 dps at 100 km.

This bonus has been awarded Mavrk's Seal of Failproval

Sebea
Sniggerdly
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:54:00 - [878]
 

Originally by: Mavrk
In this part of the thread, no one see's your ideas. Welcome to the club.

Falcon gets a gun bonus. Thats FRIGGIN USELESS! If I want to snioper I'll take out an Eagle. But dont sully my Falcon witha GUN BONUS!! put on another ECM bonus. Its an EWAR SNIPER! Not a gun sniper! all changes aside its not bad but thats a waste of a bonus slot. Congrats you've made the falcon less effective at what its SUPPOSED TO DO in exchange for 20 dps at 100 km.

This bonus has been awarded Mavrk's Seal of Failproval


You do understand the point of this thread is they are trying to CHANGE the basics of the ship right, so what it IS doesn't matter, what matters here is what it will BE.

If they change it to have a gun bonus, maybe, JUST MAYBE, people might put guns on it, I know, its a long shot, people fitting mods that their ship is bonused for, but stranger things have happened.

Tomin Highborn
Minmatar
The Lollypop Factory
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:56:00 - [879]
 

I am really liking the idea of making the sdas help all recons 20% bonus would be good although it would be needed to have a script and maybe change the bonus to around 10% but if you think about it it could help a lot. The staking peneltys would help with it being over powered but this makes sense.

Tracking disruptors being able to stop from hitting targets easy would be countered by the rapier holding the ship there better and blowing the sig way up (amarr vs mini)
Jamming counterd by reducing the targeting so they are not in the fight (caldari vs gallent)this all fits the game world.

sdas +10% to range and effectiveness of all ewar (may need a name change)
can use range or effectiveness scrips
making 15%-20% increase (would need to test)

that said if you give the ewar the same base range across the broad would be a good Idea with that I think you would see a lot more people bring the other recons out to gang and fleet warfare.

Now that said the 200+km range is just crazy on the falcon most pvp that the falcon is really good for is done at less then 150 if your getting over 150 all you can do with it is jam and at that point you may as well get in to the scorp. So dropping the range so the optimal is around 80-100km and fall off around 50-70km is grate maybe slightly shorter with the sdas adding range to it. It would be nice to have the falcon being able to get out side of gate gun range but not as big of a deal because if your going to gate camp a scorp can tank the guns with a remote rep gang and you can help with repping and dps with it. If your just ganking its a simple matter of dps and aline to warp when gate guns target you or cloak after you jam your target. So a max range of 150 is just fine but the damps/tps/tds should all hit that range too and its not like it would make a huge deal to have it that way it would just make people more likely to fly all the recons. On top of that you would see people fitting sdas to ships out side of ewar ships to help with ewar.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:58:00 - [880]
 

Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/03/2009 19:05:18
I just re-read the OP and it looks like Rook IS the shorter range version, Falcon is the longer range version. Was that a stealth change or am I just confused? Anyway, it's a good thing

There's another thing that worries me - the inability of CCP game design team to work small. Surely not every balance issue requires a complete redesign of major parts of the game. Nanoships didn't need it, ECM doesn't need it either. Of course there are cases where major redesign is called for - such as POS system, local chat. But there are many more cases where we need just slight tweaks in the game to fine tune balance.

Why does CCP insist on using nerf sledgehammer for every problem?

it's a pet peeve of mine

Carina Maloom
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:59:00 - [881]
 

Originally by: Tomin Highborn
I am really liking the idea of making the sdas help all recons 20% bonus would be good although it would be needed to have a script and maybe change the bonus to around 10% but if you think about it it could help a lot. The staking peneltys would help with it being over powered but this makes sense.

Tracking disruptors being able to stop from hitting targets easy would be countered by the rapier holding the ship there better and blowing the sig way up (amarr vs mini)
Jamming counterd by reducing the targeting so they are not in the fight (caldari vs gallent)this all fits the game world.

sdas +10% to range and effectiveness of all ewar (may need a name change)
can use range or effectiveness scrips
making 15%-20% increase (would need to test)

that said if you give the ewar the same base range across the broad would be a good Idea with that I think you would see a lot more people bring the other recons out to gang and fleet warfare.

Now that said the 200+km range is just crazy on the falcon most pvp that the falcon is really good for is done at less then 150 if your getting over 150 all you can do with it is jam and at that point you may as well get in to the scorp. So dropping the range so the optimal is around 80-100km and fall off around 50-70km is grate maybe slightly shorter with the sdas adding range to it. It would be nice to have the falcon being able to get out side of gate gun range but not as big of a deal because if your going to gate camp a scorp can tank the guns with a remote rep gang and you can help with repping and dps with it. If your just ganking its a simple matter of dps and aline to warp when gate guns target you or cloak after you jam your target. So a max range of 150 is just fine but the damps/tps/tds should all hit that range too and its not like it would make a huge deal to have it that way it would just make people more likely to fly all the recons. On top of that you would see people fitting sdas to ships out side of ewar ships to help with ewar.



agreed

Mr Frog
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:05:00 - [882]
 

Changes sound good, now please double the effect of eccm mods and we're making some progress.

dibblebill
Danneskjold Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:05:00 - [883]
 

Edited by: dibblebill on 26/03/2009 19:09:44
Seriously, I trained ECM for a reason. Now that's nearly useless. Can I get my training back? No. My Blackbird will gather dust. At least I'm saving time on my Recon ship training, since its now as useless as an armor-tanked Drake. I see most of the whiners are those that had an enemy properly equipped with a Falcon/Blackbird pilot, and that's just stupid. It doesn't take much to be ECM proficient. As for the Scorpion...

I've never flown one. Why fly that when I could do the same thing with a harder-to-hit, faster, and better lock-time Blackbird? I might fly a Scorp now, but I'd rather see some type of long-range bonus, as Caldari suck at close-range PvP. There's a reason I fly Gallente. What next, Sensor Damper nerfs? Making the stealth bombers useless? "Oh god, I can't hit him out at 150km! I need a nerfbat so I can instapop them!" Not only that, ECM isn't even guaranteed. I've lost Blackbirds to ECM just flat out not working against ships. Certainly, they're hard to tackle, but you're nerfing a race that already has little PvP potential outside of sniping, and even then the DPS we can provide is minimal unless you're firing missiles.

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:37:00 - [884]
 

Well, I like the original idea of making the Falcon a shorter ranged ship. Cov Ops cloak and super long range is definately overpowered.

What I don't like, is the change of the Scorpion. It is a slow lumbering beast. Turning it into a closerange ship, doesn't do it any good. I would say the Scorpion should be that super longrange ship for gatecamps and fleets. It is a battleship.
If you really want to turn it into a closerange ship, give it the usual shield resist bonus of Caldari ships, and a healthy bonus to multispec jammers. 3 multispecs + 4-5 slot shield tank seems to be fine for me.

KAMIKAZE TRON
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:37:00 - [885]
 

Edited by: KAMIKAZE TRON on 26/03/2009 19:40:52
I see nothing wrong with ECM. They always get primaried and taken down quickly. There screwed against interceptors or fast hacs in fleet battles, there are measures and mods to counter them successfully already. They have crap or no tanks.

The fact that people don't bother or choose not to use the things given to them already to counter ECM ships is not a good enough reason for a whole line fo ships to be changed.

If you know your enemy is going to have heavy ECM or a possibility of it just have all your BS's use one low or one medium for a sensor strength module to boost there points. Long range BS's primary ECM ships that are unable to jam...bye bye ECM. Or just send interceptors after the ECM ships....if they don't stop jamming ur main fleet and jam the interceptors there dead. Crippling there ECM.

There are like a zillion ways to make them think " im never flying ECM again " I always get killed. A zillion ways to counter ECM.

One thing that makes eve "EVE" is that you never know what your opponent has up there sleeves, 10 tanked scorpions with no ecm......all BS's setup for ECM and no tank......and a million other combernations that could be happening at any one time....Now you purpose you change a whole line of ships just because people can not be bothered to find a counter to something?

Isn't that the whole point of pvp in eve? To figure out a way to counter an enemy? To get one up on them when they think they have one up on you? Or shall we just balance everything like vanilla ships and be like every other game?

There is not reason to change a whole line of ships just because players don't use there brains and the tools given to them and cry nerf ecm nerf ecm.....

I think gallente have too good a tanks and crazy drone damage bonuses and until I can fly a domi im guna hate it......but you know what im guna do about it...im guna counter there stupid drones and then im guna learn to fly one too and kick ass in it like them so I can stop crying about it.

I don't expect the whole gallente line to be changed....

Im starting to think CCP just nerfs anything and everything that the players can't be arsed to counter the hard way.....let's just nerf it.

Centura
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:40:00 - [886]
 

Great work CCP been drinking the yellow snow again??

Leave the bloody Falcon alone. Anyone that contemplates making the Falcon a short to medium range "brawler" is seriously demented?

Tweak its strength or do something construtive. Don't just take one of the few worthwhile ships in the game to fly and beat it to death with the biggest nerfbat you can find until its as crippled as the other ships you have "fixed".

Why is it that when ever a ship does something well you have to so totally screw it over that its not even worth reprocessing (Anyone still got an EOS?)

IDIOTS

PS Fix the bloody sound already will you!!

Eraggan Sadarr
Comply Or Die
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:40:00 - [887]
 

Edited by: Eraggan Sadarr on 26/03/2009 19:42:09

Changes are nice. Don't know if they really will work out but there is a simpler solution, imo:

Make ECCM double strength, so you can actually counter anything other than EC-300 drones.
Then maybe give both the falcon/rook a dronebay as suggested. to make them a bit more versatile.

btw: falcon is still paper thin. So it will be a very short "brawl"..

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:42:00 - [888]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 26/03/2009 19:54:59
Originally by: Lord Eremet
When not having a visual/scan of all enemies in a hostile group we always assume they are in a falcon and eight times of ten that has so far been true. I see very little of other races recons. That should tell you something. I know they are somewhat broken and need to be fixed, but the falcon is to good.

Falcons fit a very special role in gangs, like rapier before the nano nerf and rapier and arazu now. Just because every gang has an inty doesn't mean inties are broken, same is applied to ecm boats.

You can tell where ecm boats in general are broken when you look at the fact that all other ecm boats are ****. Kitsune is a short range paper tanked slow frig, rook is a dps+jammer platform that does no dps and does that almost in scorch L range that can't fit a t2 fit, scorp is wannabe rr option but just not good enough for it and really not such clear an option to bring over a blackbird for sniper fleets, never mind the falcon.

CCP is addressing that, I say hooray Smile

NEW FOTM, EVERYBODY PLEASE START TRAINING IMMEDIATELY

Predicting all falcon alts now training for basilisk and guardian now that rr bs fleets are practically unjammable and not counterable without a nearly alpha-strike capable blob or another rr bs fleet.

Any change to ecm strength across the board should be followed by a reduction of sensor strength on battleships, carriers and logistics ships having in mind the effects of eccm and remote eccm.

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.03.26 19:56:00 - [889]
 

Originally by: Childstar
Give the other recons a boost to the range of some of their effects, like damps, TD's and TP's and leave SDA's giving boost to str but change them so they effect damps, TD's and TP's str as well.

Yay - recon online!

"I was damped by this Arazu at 200k but then one of our Falcons got close enough and jammed him and I got to shoot for 6 seconds before I capped out to the curse neuting me from 90k. Then I got jammed by some ECM drones and before I could get my lock back the Arazu got damps on me again, our Falcon was jammed, and I never got another lock - it rocked!"

Seriously Childstar you have the worst idea's.

Eve is a pvp game - please let us shoot stuff. I know some people can't handle the risk involved in pvp and recons are the answer for them as they mean very little risk of losing a ship. I just don't think these people matter for **** when it comes to game balence. Balence the game for those of us who want to fight!

Nerfing ECM opens up one of the fundamental divides in Eve - on one side the "safe" combat brigade and on the the other those willing to actually dive in to a good fight. The two sides will never come to agreement or be able to discuss reasonably.

Van Nuys
Prosperity Through Violence
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:12:00 - [890]
 

Why not Improve ships to balance things out rather than nerfs?

This game is getting to messed up to play, cut it down to 1 race a few ships and then nobody can complain anymore and there isnt any reason to nerf. Oh and noob friendly if thats the goal.

T2 ships have been and are now cost an arm and a leg if you want to pew pew in them on your own dime with the 5mil insurance payouts.

Slap everyone in Hulks and Haulers, get walking in stations up and keep making thoese roids lookin like exotic dancers with a camp fire in the middle, while waiting for the sleeper Smartbombing BS's to suicide everyone.ugh


Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:17:00 - [891]
 

Originally by: Yakov Draken

Eve is a pvp game - please let us shoot stuff. I know some people can't handle the risk involved in pvp and recons are the answer for them as they mean very little risk of losing a ship.


Indeed. How dare they do something other than press f1 and wait.

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:30:00 - [892]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Yakov Draken

Eve is a pvp game - please let us shoot stuff. I know some people can't handle the risk involved in pvp and recons are the answer for them as they mean very little risk of losing a ship.


Indeed. How dare they do something other than press f1 and wait.

Sorry - pvp in Eve is about activating guns and that is it? Do you pvp? I presume not.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:44:00 - [893]
 

There is so much fail in this thread that it hurts to realize that the people posting are the same species as me...

First, learn to play before you learn to rage post about how your ship is being broken. How much did Rapier/Huginn pilots cry when the speed nerf hit and webs got weakened? I'm pretty comfortable with the changes of that.

Now whoever is spreading the propaganda that missiles suck in pvp, has quite obviously, never flown a missile boat in pvp. Yes, they don't snipe at 150km very well. I've seen countless people in here saying how missiles suck and a torp scorp will be suck... I'm pretty sure you're ******ed, because even after the missile FIX that happened recently, torps are still own in pvp. Yes, you can't hit smaller torps without target painters, but show me another battleship that you can get a solid 800 dps from 0-30km range vs bs's and caps other than the Raven with T2 torps? The scorp will take this role, add an insane tank, and still give you the ability to jam a few targets while pounding the crap out of everything nearby.

Not everyone who flies a falcon flies in a 200 man gang. Most warfare I get myself into is 5-10 man fleets, most often without similar numbers on both sides. One or two falcons as they are currently completely take out a small gang. Sure, you might not permajam 1 or 2 of the ships, but the other 2-3 are out of the fight and COMPLETELY unable to do anything. Yes, drones would auto agress if you weren't already fighting something, or if the falcon wasn't 200km away, same issue with FOF's... Plus, FoF's wouldn't primary a falcon, they primary the closes agressor, if they primary anything for that matter.
Saying "oh well you can just snipe them" well sure, but that isn't realistic either. In order to do that, you're putting a ship that's made of glass in the middle of the actual fight, to try and hit something that's barely going to be in range of any sniping battleship (that can hit worth a darn) so guess who gets primaried and is exploded before the falcon dies?

For those who say "falcons have no tank" shut up, and learn how to fit your ships. Maybe all other recon pilots should start crying "we have no tank!" as well. But then we'll get told to shut up and put 2x LSE's on our ship. Hmm maybe Caldari Recon pilots should adopt that thinking instead of trying to be the only race with an invincible recon ship?

Please, let the Falcon be the "snipe" jamming ship, but keep them at least in line with all other recons as far as range goes. 60k is still a virtually untouchable range. Very few ships can hit effectively at that range, and it's right on the cusp of Drone control range with max skills.

Maybe modify the module itself to have a 30k optimal and 30k falloff, and only give the Falcon a falloff bonus, while giving the Rook a strength bonus? This will mean the Rook would fight at around 30k and the Falcon at 60, very similar to curse/pilgrim and put them in line with the Rapier/Huginn and Lachesis/Arazu. They will still be able to work further than their counterparts from other races, keeping with their "long range" mentality, but not to a ridiculous level.

Why is Caldari still the only race that has a double bonus to a single Ewar type? Give Caldari a second ewar type, just like every other race? Maybe remote sensor booster strength or range?

All in all, reason will not win the day here. What will win the day is the amount of people who will cry because their precious ship will be changed, or they will actually be forced to learn how to play to keep using the ships they trained for. Unless CCP grows some balls and stops listening to everyone crying with crap for backup to their statements, these "nerfs" to ECM will result in Falcon pilots only fighting 5km closer and no changes to everything else.

Please, you can fix this, or you can listen to everyone cry and sympathize with them. FIX WHAT IS BROKEN before cajoling those who don't know how to play. Thanks

Khaos Wildfire
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:44:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Rumpelstilski


Predicting all falcon alts now training for basilisk and guardian now that rr bs fleets are practically unjammable and not counterable without a nearly alpha-strike capable blob or another rr bs fleet.

Any change to ecm strength across the board should be followed by a reduction of sensor strength on battleships, carriers and logistics ships having in mind the effects of eccm and remote eccm.



I can't agree more. I'll just park my Falcon next to my already useless Torp Raven and take out either a Scorp or Domi I have trained and RR with my fleets and LOL at anyone who isn't.

There are already many counters to Falcons, etc, such as F.O.F missiles, Sentry drones, ECCM Mods (which work extremely well, especially on a cruiser raven meant to Alpha the Falcon.) Ironically, falcon's became more powerful thanks to CCPs last speed nerf, in which many ships could close on a falcon quickly enough before.

Soon I'll find it more fun mining with an alt. But how long until miners are overpowered? After all, based on the logic to nerf the Signal Distortion Amps, why not nerf the Mining Laser Uprades? They too are only found on 1 kind of ship, miners. That's not fair to any other ship type I guess.

And lastly, why call a ship a RECON ship if it can't do its job and get on and off the battlefield without engaging multiple battleships?

Gut Punch
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.03.26 20:48:00 - [895]
 

Edited by: Gut Punch on 26/03/2009 20:50:19
BURN THE WITCHES! Yeah its about time CCP nerfed ECM to hell and put it on the same level has Sensor Damps, Webs, and other EW. TBH, this has been long due - especially now after the nerf. Heck I created my own falcon alt due to the overpowered ability to shut off the enemy while having almost no threat. So to all you caldari whiners who really liked the nano nerf and the two point scrambler thing, enjoy the ECM nerf. All of your whining and complaining isn't going to change CCP's point of view to what you want. Don't even bother asking for your rigs or skills back cause CCP didn't givethe implants or training to us "nano***s". YARRRR!!

Unfortunately this is just CCP continuing down the path of making the game nothing but DPS vs Tank at point blank ranges.

Arganato
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:04:00 - [896]
 

Originally by: Ellatan Deruimte
Edited by: Ellatan Deruimte on 26/03/2009 18:05:32
Great changes in my opinion. Falcons are overused at the moment both in gangs and in fleet combat.


And solo/duo/falcon-alt. (Its annoying as hell beeing ganked by a noob t1 cruiser bait with a falcon as backup in lowsec)

I have been flying falcons a lot myself, and they needed the nerf. The new changes can make ECm-ships much more interresting again :)

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:05:00 - [897]
 

good

Turma Tapa
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:33:00 - [898]
 

So if you want to that falcon can keep long ecm range please reduce more its ECM jammer strength! Somehow like this:

Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
12.5% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal and falloff Range per level
10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level



Johan Sabbat
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:50:00 - [899]
 

Edited by: Johan Sabbat on 26/03/2009 21:50:25
Originally by: VB Sarge

Please, let the Falcon be the "snipe" jamming ship, but keep them at least in line with all other recons as far as range goes. 60k is still a virtually untouchable range. Very few ships can hit effectively at that range, and it's right on the cusp of Drone control range with max skills.



You know, I'm not sure we are even playing the same game here...

60km is only long distance if you only look at the maximum gank you can get out of a ship.


Ellatan Deruimte
Surreal corp
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:53:00 - [900]
 

Edited by: Ellatan Deruimte on 26/03/2009 22:09:03
Originally by: GTC seller72

Rubbish, most of the modules like damps, TD's and TP's are regularly used on NON-bonused ships in gang v gang fighting becasue their gaurenteed effect works great on a ship with great tank and gank. How often do you see ECM on a non bonused gang ship?...

While the bonused recon ships for those systems are never used in gang v gang combat because the effect even bonused is not worth the lack of tank and gank recons have compared to the nonbonused ships. But if the other recons had longer range for those effects you can bet you would see them in gang fights.

Your right and it works great as long as your not a idiot and decide to approach it...Rolling Eyes

So TD aint good against missiles big whoop, drones auto aggro if your ecm'd btw and fof are missiles as well.


We are not playing the same game then. I play a game called Eve online in 0.0 security systems. From my experience damps and tds are not used on non-bonused ship at all, because it's a wasted midslot for a tiny benefit. You seem to be stuck somewhere 2 years ago in the past, when everybody was using dampeners until they were nerfed. They are sometimes used on recons, however they are not effective against mutliple enemies and certain ship types on the contrary to jammers. I hope I bring my point across well.

My point was, damp ship can be tackled by a close range ship with no escape, TD ship can be damaged and tackled my missile ships and drone boats. They also operate at a much closer range then falcons. Even then Falcons can easily break a tackle and warp out, unlike other ecm ships.

So what I hope for is that Falcons will have to spend more midslots on their tank, compensating for a shorter range. 2 LSE + Invul for instance or just 2 LSE like on any other shield tanked recon. there will be less jammers available and they will have to make tougher decisions in terms of tactics and piloting, which in turn will result in more pew pew for the rest of us.


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