open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked ECM Ships - Looking at better defined roles
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 ... : last (38)

Author Topic

Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:23:00 - [781]
 

Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:26:17
Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:25:38
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
The *best* you can do, with max skill and rigs, is drop a battleship a bit under 20km lock range... and that needs four damps, all hitting the target.

With 10 sec cycle you don't need to damp BS all the time. This also helps with damp failure on falloff and allows faster target switching.

It gives twice more time to lock and shoot somebody if 20 sec jamm fails.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:28:00 - [782]
 

I think the end goal of all this tweaking should be this:

1) There should be equal tactical reasons to fly a Falcon, Rook and a Scorp. Each should have their optimal non-cornercase use case.

2) There should be equal valid tactical reasons to fly a Falcon, an Arazu, a Pilgrim or a Rapier. Now, some of these ships are more specialized than others (Pilgrim especially), but they all should be valid choices. Same goes for the non-cloaking variants, of course.

Currently, as we all know, if you join a fleet and say (for example) "I have an Arazu", what you'll get back is "could you bring a Falcon, instead?". Because Falcon does the job simply better, 95% of the time. This needs to change.

My gut feel at the moment:

- Falcon: stupidly overpowered, due to combo of extreme ewar range and covops cloak.
- Rook: mostly ok, due to lack of covops cloaking
- Rapier: mostly ok
- Huginn: ok-ish, but maybe could use some love (Rapier is better almost always)
- Arazu: same as Lachesis, except worse tackle (slower to lock)
- Lachesis: weakish; good tackle but horribly weak ewar
- Curse: fine
- Pilgrim: fine, due to the new scramblers. An exception to the others, being a solo boat. That's fine, in my book.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:30:00 - [783]
 

Originally by: Yunaka Vicc
Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:26:17
Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:25:38
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
The *best* you can do, with max skill and rigs, is drop a battleship a bit under 20km lock range... and that needs four damps, all hitting the target.

With 10 sec cycle you don't need to damp BS all the time. This also helps with damp failure on falloff and allows faster target switching.

It gives twice more time to lock and shoot somebody if 20 sec jamm fails.


Yes, but you still have:

a) you need to put all of your ewar on one target in order to have any useful effect. An Arazu will hurt only one ship at a time, as a rule. Compare to Falcon.

b) the damp effect does nothing to close-ranged ships, which means pretty much all ships (except Falcons) on lowsec warfare. On the other hand, damps lack the range to really work as anti-sniper or anti-ranged-Falcon ewar, since at 200km they are so far into falloff that the chance of their working is slim indeed.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:34:00 - [784]
 

As an aside: posting with your main gives you a bit more credibility, generally. The number of vocal alts here is quite something...

Maybe they don't want to show what alliance they belong to. Wonder why... Very Happy


Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:35:00 - [785]
 

Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:37:48
Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 26/03/2009 08:37:28
I agree with Falcon 200+ range problem.

But reducing both range and strength will make this ship useless in gangs except second window help for solo damager.

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
As an aside: posting with your main gives you a bit more credibility, generally. The number of vocal alts here is quite something...


It's my main just check ingame, though I've some alts.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:36:00 - [786]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
W
Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
12.5% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal & Falloff Range per level
10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level

Attribute Changes:
+1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint



Wtf is this? A falcon boost? With those skills you are getting the same range as before so how is that nerfing falcon range? Killing the capacitor bonus is fine ever since you made ecm modules super easy on cap a few patches back.

What have you done to my lovely falcon re-balance? Seriously, grab your balls and put in the balance changes that you want instead of caving to fotm whiners.

Give the ship the optimal bonus OR the strength bonus, that way you can pick what you want instead of one ship being the best at everything. ffs it is not that hard of a concept to grasp is it?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:39:00 - [787]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/03/2009 08:40:03
Originally by: Yunaka Vicc
I agree with Falcon 200+ range problem.

But reducing both range and strength will make this ship useless in gangs except second window help for solo damager.


I don't think so. It just means you have to fit a tank, like all the other recons. You don't need SDAs anymore due to increased ecm str (in the original proposal), so use your lowslots to armor tank. It's what the Arazu and Lachesis need to do, too (and no, they don't have better tank ability than the Falcon/Rook pair).

All the closer range means is that now you actually run some risk. I know this is a shocking idea to some Falcon pilots, but there it is. Very Happy

Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:44:00 - [788]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
I don't think so. It just means you have to fit a tank, like all the other recons. You don't need SDAs anymore due to increased ecm str (in the original proposal), so use your lowslots to armor tank. It's what the Arazu and Lachesis need to do, too (and no, they don't have better tank ability than the Falcon/Rook pair).

I see only strength reduction with currently proposed bonuses and no strength in SDAs.

New rook with rigs <=> current with one SDA.
New falcon with rigs <=> current without SDAs at all.

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
All the closer range means is that now you actually run some risk. I know this is a shocking idea to some Falcon pilots, but there it is. Very Happy


No problem with risk, 60-100 km is fine range.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:46:00 - [789]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 26/03/2009 08:47:04
LOVE THE NEW ROOK! Smile


Suggestion for Scorp: don't remove his ecm optimal bonus completely so he can still be used in sniping ranges with 2-3 SDAs fitted (which kill his tank, but that is the idea).

Also, if the scorp is to be used as a short range brawler, he would need another low so he can fit a 5-slot tank (dc II, 2x eanm II, 2x 1600mm plate)

Suggestion for kitsune: remove it's ecm range bonus which is useless and give it a speed or mwding signature radius bonus (small zooming jamming thingie Smile)

Falcon the blaster boat is an interesting idea, the rook as being the combat recon among them would be my first guess for a switch to hybrid, but this is good too, moar diversity in fittings moar diversity on overview ftw

Btw, will overloading jammers should now give proper bonuses? (ecm overloading bonuses used to stack with sdas and pda rigs)

Yunaka Vicc
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:48:00 - [790]
 

Originally by: Rumpelstilski
LOVE THE NEW ROOK! Smile
Btw, will overloading jammers now give proper bonuses? (ecm overloading bonuses used to stack with sdas and pda rigs)

+1 to overloading fix
It also will balance new jammer strength.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.26 08:56:00 - [791]
 

You just made me *want* to train for the Rook Shocked

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:09:00 - [792]
 

A few things:

- If you change the SDA so it gives bonus on range instead of strength, be careful with boosting the actual ECM modules to compensate. Compensate with the bonus on ships instead. If not we will end up with ECM module being the new damp.

If my memory is correct, CCP nerfed the actual strength on the ECM modules and implemented SDA while boosting the ships bonuses, cause everyone was using multispecs in their mids.

Armor tank raven with multis, NOS Domi with multis etc.

People complaining about range, remember this:

In CCP`s proposal they are changing the optimal and falloff range on the ECM modules...

By just that little change the falcon`s optimal goes from 162km til under 100km even with 20% range bonus per lvl.


Quote:
Wtf is this? A falcon boost? With those skills you are getting the same range as before so how is that nerfing falcon range? Killing the capacitor bonus is fine ever since you made ecm modules super easy on cap a few patches back.

What have you done to my lovely falcon re-balance? Seriously, grab your balls and put in the balance changes that you want instead of caving to fotm whiners.

Give the ship the optimal bonus OR the strength bonus, that way you can pick what you want instead of one ship being the best at everything. ffs it is not that hard of a concept to grasp is it?



With those stats the Falcon optimal with max skills would be 66km....

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:19:00 - [793]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 26/03/2009 09:21:28
Could you also please fix the overheat bug?

No point in overheating as it stacks with SDA, rigs and ganglinks.

Another thing, are SDA and rig`s supposed to stack with ganglinks on commandships?


Seem to remember that the ganglinks for speed, agility etc dont have a stacking penalty towards mods and rigs on your ship.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:23:00 - [794]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 26/03/2009 09:21:28
Could you also please fix the overheat bug?

No point in overheating as it stacks with SDA, rigs and ganglinks.

Another thing, are SDA and rig`s supposed to stack with ganglinks on commandships?


Seem to remember that the ganglinks for speed, agility etc dont have a stacking penalty towards mods and rigs on your ship.

Afaik, overheating, modules, implants/hardwirings, boosters and gang bonuses don't stack with each other

AntonioBanderas
Empirius Enigmus Navy
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:33:00 - [795]
 

**** you whiners and go to hell, pussies
ohmoez my falcon is losing it's i-win button!!!1!!!eleven!
morons
if amar and (toa degree) minmatar can have cloaking brawler, why wouldn't caldari?
and don't give me 'tank' ****, try to 'tank' rapierRolling Eyes

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:37:00 - [796]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 26/03/2009 09:40:58
Let me de-internetize this:
Originally by: AntonioBanderas
**** you whiners and go to hell, pussies
ohmoez my falcon is losing it's i-win button!!!1!!!eleven!
morons
if amar and (toa degree) minmatar can have cloaking brawler, why wouldn't caldari?
and don't give me 'tank' ****, try to 'tank' rapierRolling Eyes

Quick fake filter gives us:
Originally by: Translation:AntonioBanderas
It seems unreasonable to complain about Falcon's loss of the range bonus because other recons don't have a range bonus, you will just have to fit a lse tank to go with it, nano it a bit, and hope for the best.

Sure, it sounds like a great idea, especially if falcon got drones too and it's dps and scanres in line with the rapier or pilgrim so it can be used as a solo roaming ship.

Blaster falcon with drones might just prove to be a hilarious ship to fly.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.03.26 09:51:00 - [797]
 

Originally by: Rumpelstilski
Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 26/03/2009 09:21:28
Could you also please fix the overheat bug?

No point in overheating as it stacks with SDA, rigs and ganglinks.

Another thing, are SDA and rig`s supposed to stack with ganglinks on commandships?


Seem to remember that the ganglinks for speed, agility etc dont have a stacking penalty towards mods and rigs on your ship.

Afaik, overheating, modules, implants/hardwirings, boosters and gang bonuses don't stack with each other


Guess it`s bugged then ugh

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:04:00 - [798]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit

Wtf is this? A falcon boost? With those skills you are getting the same range as before so how is that nerfing falcon range?


Well for those of us who didn't drop out of math class in pre-school 85km optimal is not the same as 230km.
Also fighting in falloff actually reduces your ECM strength - learn game mechanics, then post maybe?

Haramir Haleths
Caldari
Nutella Bande
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:07:00 - [799]
 

Now Caldari is completly gimped in PvP. The last Caldari PvP ship is now gimped to hell. This really sucks .... im ****ed, you can have my stuff

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:12:00 - [800]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 26/03/2009 10:27:30

Originally by: Sebea

Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: Sebea
Whatever you do to them, you need to bring their range in.

It wouldn't matter so much if they weren't always so damn far away from the fight.

In low sec pirate Falcons engage without fear of sentry fire.

In 0.0 the falcon hovers near 220-240 range jamming happily away from anything that could ever touch it.

We lost a whole class of ship (Nano Cruisers) because they were considered unbalanced and unfair, giving too much of an advantage to those wanting to disengage.

When does the falcon start to fall into that category??

I know its not a "nano" boat per se, but it allows its user virutal immunity to any form of attack because of its jams, and its long range ability.

I know, I know, they have crappy tanks, well, tbh, if you let a player cross the 200km to your falcon, you should probably stop sucking in a falcon.


Every ship with the ability to snipe has the immunity you are talking about and like the sniper it a has no use without close range support not only to tackle the target ship like the snipers need but also to actually do damage and kill it...

Its a gang ship and needing a gang to operate is its flaw.

Yes kind sir, but the falcon and rook are the only RECONS that can do it. ALL the rest of the recons have to get relatively close.




And that is why all the other recons are never used in gang vs gang combat.

This is not "fixing" anything its screwing up yet another ship for gang combat and taking another great step towards tank/gank only ships in anything resembling gang fighting.

But then thats what the nerf hounds want anyway, god forbid they need to be mobile or even just adjust a couple of fittings ect from a couple of their ships in a gang....Rolling Eyes

Oh and just how butchered are multi specs going to be, after all damps, webs, point and even TD's work on ALL but 1 race/type but ECM are still stuck with bloody racial only modules (another thing ppl ignore when they preach about getting jammed)...

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:27:00 - [801]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
12.5% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal & Falloff Range per level
10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level

Attribute Changes:
+1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint

What is the matter with you? You were supposed to NERF the falcon, the range of the falcon was the problem. After those changes you get pretty much the same optimal with a massive falloff boost.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:43:00 - [802]
 

Originally by: Haramir Haleths
Now Caldari is completly gimped in PvP. The last Caldari PvP ship is now gimped to hell. This really sucks .... im ****ed, you can have my stuff


Please give it to me. And please quit with the game. It is clear you don't know how to pvp with caldari.

Whats the diffrence between 230km and 80km? There is notting that can shoot that far before it gets jammed. + that bloody thing can shoot now! - Beside that, my corpmember who flies a falcon ones in a while fits a 1600mm plate. THis is going to be a buff to a falcon if you just know to fly one.

Kim Telkin
Caldari
Love for You
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:45:00 - [803]
 

While mentioning changes to ECM ships, I will slide my own random idea in. What if ECM was rolled against each lock the ship had instead of all of them?

So if you have an ECM strength of 10 and the ship you are targeting has a sensor strength of 20, on average you'll remove 1/2 of their locks.

An example to make my point. Your ship can target a max of 8 ships, you are currently targeting 5 ships and in the process of locking 1 more.

I jam you, so I roll against each target. Out of your 5 locks, 2 break, and the target you are int he process of locking breaks as well. Then you roll against your 2 other potential targets and one of them 'breaks' as well.

So I broke 2 real locks, kept you from locking a third, and lowered your max locked targets by another one. So for the next 20 seconds you can only lock a max of 4 targets.

Seems to be more in line with how the other EWAR systems work.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:45:00 - [804]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 26/03/2009 10:46:27
Originally by: Sebea
Yes kind sir, but the falcon and rook are the only RECONS that can do it. ALL the rest of the recons have to get relatively close

All other recons have the ability to do some dps, all have drone bays for soloing and tackler killing, all are nanoable (except pilgrim possibly) and get to choose between secondary ewar (tps, damps, tds) or a lse tank without gimping them to perform their primary role.
Originally by: Jalif
Whats the diffrence between 230km and 80km? There is notting that can shoot that far before it gets jammed. + that bloody thing can shoot now! - Beside that, my corpmember who flies a falcon ones in a while fits a 1600mm plate. THis is going to be a buff to a falcon if you just know to fly one.

You're right sir, it's not like sniper hacs are abundant these days Smile

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:47:00 - [805]
 

Edited by: Dibsi Dei on 26/03/2009 11:19:59


Z800XV
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:47:00 - [806]
 

Dear CCP plz create some RIGS that increase a SENSOR STRENGTH. it may bee (just example) +10 to sensor strength or +80%, as you wish but just make them alive.

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:51:00 - [807]
 

Originally by: Z800XV
Dear CCP plz create some RIGS that increase a SENSOR STRENGTH. it may bee (just example) +10 to sensor strength or +80%, as you wish but just make them alive.

This tbh.

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:55:00 - [808]
 

Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: Haramir Haleths
Now Caldari is completly gimped in PvP. The last Caldari PvP ship is now gimped to hell. This really sucks .... im ****ed, you can have my stuff


Please give it to me. And please quit with the game. It is clear you don't know how to pvp with caldari.

Whats the diffrence between 230km and 80km? There is notting that can shoot that far before it gets jammed. + that bloody thing can shoot now! - Beside that, my corpmember who flies a falcon ones in a while fits a 1600mm plate. THis is going to be a buff to a falcon if you just know to fly one.


He fits a plate AND has range, that gives you a clue how flimsy these ships are and how often they fail a jam cycle.

Losing the range = dead falcon if it misses a jam or their are more than just a couple of ships. That is why the other recons are not flown in gang fighting and why the falcon will not be flown if its range is removed.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:57:00 - [809]
 

One importent thing with todays changes. If you plan on making the Rook a close range ship, please add some more grid to it.

You want to be able to fit a full rack of HAM's now with the 10% velocity bonus, but also a MWD+LSE since you are up close you need some kind of defences otherwise it would goo poof regardless since it will be primary.

Tijaa
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:57:00 - [810]
 

Why not change the modules

Remove the ability to fit more than one of each type of racial jammer.
Remove the ability for a racial jammer to jam the wrong races ship.
Make the strength bonuses only apply to multispec jammers.

Thoughts?


Pages: first : previous : ... 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 ... : last (38)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only