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blankseplocked 75% nerf to Deep space probes
 
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.23 02:36:00 - [31]
 

right, so they are a bit op as is. but I am not familiar enough with probe mechanics to know what a 5 base strength means. when you spread them out will they have a strength of 0.1 and not able to get a hit on anything or something Confused

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.23 04:21:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Dave10
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.


They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.


Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.[...]
for BS and (stupidly) extended BCs, this may hold true. but not for 80% of pvp-eve in (t2) cruisers and _certainly_ not for frigs.

i'm running lvl4's in a vaga in low-sec every now and then; the time it takes for them to get to me after i had the first combat/deep probe on my 3au dir scan would have been long enough to organize a fleet from 5-10j out (depending on amount of stages)
and i could fit eccm instead of this cov-ops killing warp disruptor -.-

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.23 05:12:00 - [33]
 

Sounds to me like they simply suck, then. I'm able to probe down frigates with combat probes without too much difficulty.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.23 06:11:00 - [34]
 

fraps then... i'm tired of these "i can probe everything in 10 seconds" posts.

Snow Banshee
Amarr
Ruatha Holding
Posted - 2009.03.23 07:13:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Dave10
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00
On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.


Thought that could happen soon. Problem with DSPs is that they ARE overpowered. There is no point in using combat probes if you can use DSPs. However simply reducing their signal strength so much means that DSPs become useless overnight, except to find deep safes.

I don't understand why they don't restore the old DSPs. 5 signal base strength, but a minimum range of 8AU, not 2 like it is now. That allows DSPs to multispec decently but they couldn't be used to close on sites and on most ships. Probably even a signal str of 2.5 might be decent, but I am not sure about that.


Up for this. I like.

Ombey
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.03.23 08:00:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Ombey on 23/03/2009 08:01:10
Originally by: Blane Xero
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.


1. Kill ship speed
2. Initiate warp to target
3. Immediately cancel warp.
4. If marker doesn't appear, initiate warp to at 100km

The first warp will always drag you to 0m if the place hasn't spawned yet. Once spawned, you can warp to 100km np.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.03.23 08:56:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
fraps then... i'm tired of these "i can probe everything in 10 seconds" posts.


CBA to fraps but:

1. put DSP at 256au, check for sigs
2. put 3 more DPS, set them all at 8AU, move em a bit to get square
3. move all probes so the cente of square is on planet - scan

At point 3 you get all signatures around planet as known. Only like 5% of sigs will remain without type - this means you can change range to 4au on all probes and do scan again usually finding radar/magneto sites in Wspace.

First (8au scan) will give you warpins on most sites instantly. SO from start to 1st warpin it is 5+10+5 seconds (10sec for setting probes if you are really slow). 20 seconds now. If you need 4au warpin add another 5-8 seconds. So 25-28 seconds. If you are unlycky and need 2au range (rare) add another 5-8 making it 30-36 seconds.

So most sites are findable under 1 minute. Same is for ships. This is not "player skill" - this is just smashing button as fast as you can.

But unfortunately the change will mean DSP get useless (same str. as core, higher deviation) and scanning sites will become tedious again (o wait, i have been at this spot already...)

ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.23 10:10:00 - [38]
 

and we see a return to scan grind. Which is exactly what ccp want to accomplish with this

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2009.03.23 11:36:00 - [39]
 

I really think the strength should stay more or less the same but reduce their minimum range to 8au.

this lets them do their two key jobs well (Signature map of the system and the ability to lock down signal types early) while not making the cores / combats useless. Which is their main overpowering advantage at the moment.

This still leaves them rather overpowered regarding lockdown of multiple BS and BC in systems with little effort. Perhaps they can maintain sensor strength for exploration signatures but be weaker for ships?

It would help if we could hear from CCP regarding their concerns and intentions with this nerf.

And whine whine I'm training astrometrics V only for THIS nerf? Well, having 8 probes is very useful in some situations at least.

ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.23 14:41:00 - [40]
 

CCP intend to ram this one thro was on sisi and the response was pretty well its a balancing issue and they wish to repalce easy scan with scan grind yawn boring spend 3 hours finding wormhole exits from wspace again rubbish

Oh well

Krishan13
Bright Nova Industries
Posted - 2009.03.23 15:37:00 - [41]
 

BETTER IDEA:

Add in a 'Multispectrum Deep Space Probe'. Make IT have the 5 base strength.

Change the existing Deep Space Probe to only work on sigs. Remove the ship location ability from the standard DS probe.

Pliskkenn
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.23 16:29:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Pliskkenn on 23/03/2009 16:32:07
Ugh, thats a bit much. Bit heavy handed I think but eh, you play EVE Long enough you're bound to get punched in the face with a change eventually.

I mean, a 50% cut in strength, that wouldn't be as bad or painful.

Malena Panic
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.23 16:30:00 - [43]
 

CCP why do you hate people who have Astrometrics V trained?

That's *twice* you've nerfed this skill. c'mon, leave it alone.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.23 17:43:00 - [44]
 

Early in the first testing phase on SISI, Greyscale indicated that the only reason they needed DSPs was to enable finding deep safes. It sounds like this is a change designed to limit the DSPs to that intended role.

Ah, found the quote:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It's not intended to act as a multispec; the main reason for re-including it is to allow the scanning of deep safes. In an ideal world there'd just be the two probe types.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it.

Tasha Voronina
Caldari
Caldari Navy Reserve Force
Posted - 2009.03.23 17:47:00 - [45]
 

So, to sum up - decent ideas I've read in here (and/or had myself):

-Increase minimum range to 8 AU
-Increase deviation on the DSP
-Increase DSP scanning time (say, 30-60 sec instead of 10)

Combine this and you've successfully nerfed DSPs for ship scanning but not entirely for exploration, as far as I can tell.

BUT: Keep their sensor strength - nice probing system is good, nice and convenient probing system is better (goes for the exploration part of it here)

Captain Vampire
Caldari
Kung Fu Vampire Ninja's
Posted - 2009.03.23 17:52:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Early in the first testing phase on SISI, Greyscale indicated that the only reason they needed DSPs was to enable finding deep safes. It sounds like this is a change designed to limit the DSPs to that intended role.

Ah, found the quote:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It's not intended to act as a multispec; the main reason for re-including it is to allow the scanning of deep safes. In an ideal world there'd just be the two probe types.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it.


Precisely, it makes sense from a PvE point of view, though a filtering mechanism is badly needed.

However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships. It will be almost impossible to get quick hits on cruisers with this nerf. And the worst part is, Greyscale doesn't care about ship probing. He actually stated that this new system made ship scanning harder, and that people warping between safespots should be uncatchable. This new nerf shifts the advantage to the victim even further. This "nerf/fix" is probably one of the lamest excuses so far to make eve safer for ratters.

Keep PvP and PvE probing separated god danm it. There is no point trying to balance both at the same time. I'd rather go back to the old system for PvP probing ugh

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.23 18:45:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Captain Vampire
However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships.
I honestly don't know where you are getting this. Back when they were Observators, DSPs were useless for finding ships; at best, they gave you an idea where to go to launch shorter ranged probes. In their current incarnation, the quote I mentioned suggests that's also the current intent of them -- to let you localize a deep safespot so you can probe the ships in it with better probes.

As for PvP probing, Greyscale made it brutally clear, in repeated comments, that preserving the previous PvP probing balance was never a design requirement, because they have an overall "intel suite" upgrade planned for the nearish future. Sucks, but it makes sense in the overall scheme of things -- why spend enormous effort on fine tuning something you're planning on changing (again) in six months or a year?

Captain Vampire
Caldari
Kung Fu Vampire Ninja's
Posted - 2009.03.23 20:31:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Captain Vampire
However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships.
I honestly don't know where you are getting this. Back when they were Observators, DSPs were useless for finding ships; at best, they gave you an idea where to go to launch shorter ranged probes. In their current incarnation, the quote I mentioned suggests that's also the current intent of them -- to let you localize a deep safespot so you can probe the ships in it with better probes.

As for PvP probing, Greyscale made it brutally clear, in repeated comments, that preserving the previous PvP probing balance was never a design requirement, because they have an overall "intel suite" upgrade planned for the nearish future. Sucks, but it makes sense in the overall scheme of things -- why spend enormous effort on fine tuning something you're planning on changing (again) in six months or a year?


Finding ships = deep safes, right? Unless plexes tend to deep safe?

So, nerfing the strength of DPSs will affect PvP probing, and frankly, they were not OP at PvP probing. That is why I ask for a separate PvP system, because "fixing" the "I can scan everything with my BS" problem is killing the PvP probing system.

And btw, why on earth would anyone in their right mind design a PvE mechanic, apply it to PvP so it might be balanced when the "intel suite" is revisited. The devs has stated countless times that PvP is the core of EvE, and some of us still believe that. Though, the way Greyscale has handled this makes me doubt. The old system was much better for ship probing. Tbh, you don't have to be a genius to realize that micromanaging widget movement is not a great PvP mechanic.

Jalum Krayal
Posted - 2009.03.23 20:44:00 - [49]
 


What they really need to do is let us filter out certain signatures. Many wormholes have 15-30 signatures all within 8au of each other. Either let us ignore certain ones (lolgravimetriclol) or let us somehow keep track of them by marking them, so we aren't re-scanning for the same signature over and over.

Mistral Sud
Minmatar
Black Box Corp.
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:19:00 - [50]
 

Ohhhhhh nOOOOOOOOO!
dont touch my deep saves!
agreed they are op for scanning ships!by far!
but not that way! give us that history thingy or let us filter the sites, something!
just making them completly useless is not the way to go!
scanning is really fun now dont destroy it.
restrict them to 8 au is ok too! im fine with all just making them useless is not ok:(

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.24 09:30:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it.


Yes, that's true. And I am one of those who complained the loudest that scanning is too easy, so I wouldn't be too upset by the change. Still, there should be SOME advantage, even slight, in having astro V. Currently it's pretty useless (8 probes instead of 7 just doesn't seem useful) except in pvp.

On second thought, the chance to have a look at unbiased signature levels in the entire system is not that bad, although not as effective as multispeccing the whole system. Maybe it won't be as bad for good probers, and it will induce a little bit of selection among explorers, at least for wh exploration. Might not be as bad. Well I suppose we'll have to see how it rolls.

I just feel for MM spredsheet, since all the base strengths would have to be revisited AGAIN. :-)

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 10:09:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Dave10
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00
On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.

PLEASE do not put this live. Deep space probes are currently the only way to filter out all the grav/ladar sites in WH systems - so if this goes live, it'll take 10 times longer to get the useful radar/mag/unknown sigs in a WH system, which is NOT fun.

If you must nerf DSPs, buff cores to make them more useful in WH systems, or remove the grav/ladar site spam in WH systems, or actually implement and option in the filter to only show sigs that are of a certain type Confused




This! Wh space will become bad again

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.24 15:03:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Marlenus on 24/03/2009 15:07:53
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Still, there should be SOME advantage, even slight, in having astro V. Currently it's pretty useless (8 probes instead of 7 just doesn't seem useful) except in pvp.
Well, I'm one of the people who used to spend a lot of time with Observators looking for deep safes, so that function of the Deep Space Probes remains of interest to me. But most of the ways of making deep safes have been removed over time, so it's a declining value.

Now that the patch notes are out, I'm a little surprised to see that they are going ahead with the change to Deep Space Probes without simultaneously putting the "archive" back in or giving us some other method to help with sorting through lots of results. I welcome the challenge, myself, but there's going to be some epic whining from many quarters.

Edited to add: I actually find myself using all eight probes fairly often. I'm not sure how well it will work with core probes, but I've been developing a method of scanning down all the sigs in a system at once, by a sort of "purse seine netting" process where I surround the sigs in the system central core with probes and them move the probes in as I reduce their range, eliminating (and letting through the net) any sigs that I can either match to a pre-existing bookmark or get a type on (usually grav) that I don't need to bookmark today. The more probes out, the easier this process is.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.24 16:44:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Edited to add: I actually find myself using all eight probes fairly often.
[snip]
The more probes out, the easier this process is.


I didn't use much eight probes together, mainly because of DSPs. Not that they are not good for multispeccing anymore it's probably a good time to use 8 probes concentrated on a single planet to try to multispec many sigs.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:00:00 - [55]
 

Yeah, usually I start with five probes, adding more if I need to move the net "in" and there's an outlier sig that I don't have fully identified or pinned down yet. With DSPs, I don't get to needing eight very often. Once I move to Cores, I expect I'll be using eight all the time and wanting a dozen.

Hamatitio
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:32:00 - [56]
 

patch notes are out, however it doesnt say what they lowered the strength to, maybe we can cross our fingers and pray they only brought it down to 10 :|

B1FF
Posted - 2009.03.24 21:03:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Quote:
again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems


it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.


Warp then cancel will create marker.

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.03.24 22:29:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Hamatitio
patch notes are out, however it doesnt say what they lowered the strength to, maybe we can cross our fingers and pray they only brought it down to 10 :|
Deep Space Scanner Probe I and its variations have had their strength reduced.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.24 23:55:00 - [59]
 

Quote:
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.


Then slap some shield extenders and inertia stabs on your ship. Tis what I did.

Also, SURPRISEPATCHNOTES:

Quote:
# Warping to an encounter site at range will now work the first time you warp there. Previously your ship would land at 0km from the beacon no matter what range was set for the ‘warp to’ command.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2009.03.25 09:49:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dave10
On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
I'm still kinda baffled by this. Why does CCP keep using such hamfisted nerfs? It'd make alot more sense to have just increased the minimum range for a DSP. Currently you can shrink them down to 2au. Shoulda just increased that minimum to 8au. Would still get enough deviation in there to require Combats or Cores to narrow it down.

DSPs were powerful. DSPs made Astro V worth it. Kinda like Cruiser V for a HAC makes it worth it. T2 cruiser is superior to T1 counterpart in just about every way.

DSPs at strength 5? Not superior to Cores. Not stronger. Not worth it. Just gives crappy results at longer ranges.


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