open All Channels
seplocked Intergalactic Summit
blankseplocked Verge Vendor Captured by Caldari State
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.21 14:59:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
You're comparing mutually discovered systems to ones discovered entirely by the Caldari? I thought you were smarter than that Stitcher.


Technically, the Gallente did have a damn good point when they got all riled up over the Caldari discovering and colonizing systems independently of the Federation that we helped found. The war was most directly started by an act of Caldari dishonesty. Not an entirely unwarranted one, perhaps - the Federation was after all abusing its majority representation in the senate to impose trade regulations and restrictions that the Caldari were powerless to oppose - but a dishonest and dishonourable act nonetheless. Bear in mind that at that time, the distinction between Caldari and Federation was academic at best - we helped found it, after all. If it hadn't been for an unhealthy clash between Caldari stubbornness and the Gallentean desire to be the ones whose philosophy is dominant, we'd still be members of the Federation to this day.

Empathy is a powerful tool, Pilot. Those unfortunates who can't peer into the minds and motives of others are restricted to a world of greys and blacks and whites. I take pride in at least trying to see both sides of a given issue. And believe me, it makes the world a far more interesting and colourful place.

I'm an idealist and patriot in the truest sense of the word - I don't blindly delude myself into thinking that the Caldari are perfectly blameless victims. We most certainly are not. I do believe that we can improve our moral standing, however, and work tirelessly toward that end. And the first step toward that is acceptance of blame, of culpability. We need to recognize and confront our failings, not excuse them away or create scapegoats, or disguise them behind lies of "liberation" and suchlike.

Embrace imperfection, in other words.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2009.03.21 15:24:00 - [62]
 

You seem to be forgetting that the creation of many of those colonies predate The Caldari homeworld forming the Federation with the Gallente. Those colonies and those living on them were never a part of the Federation to begin with. That revisionist historians want to claim the entire Caldari race joined the Federation is their mistake to live with. The first war started because the Gallente found that there were locations they weren't leeching off of or forcing their way of life on, and that they had no legal authority to do so, and it made them mad.

Any Gallente colonies created before the Federation, or as sole Gallente ventures, would likewise have no rights to be claimed by the Caldari. However unless the Gallente would want to mutually divide up the work of our ancestors, it's a moot point now. Much of the work taken from us has been, and continues to be, repaid to the Federation by Caldari forces.

If the megacorps want to prove they've learned from their mistakes and are going to resolve their years of criminal treatment of our people, which gave rise to men like Heth, then they would be wise to move swiftly to have CONCORD formally recognize an independent Intaki state, which the Legion would be more than happy to assist and protect, I'm sure. This would also deal a lasting blow to the Gallente and leave a scar that they should be forced to bear for how they have let the area rot while growing fat off of it.

For now, the Intaki homeworld is free of Federation influence, and the chance for a better life than what they'd have under the Federation stands before them. Taking steps to make it a reality is for them to decide.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.03.21 15:53:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Technically, the Gallente did have a damn good point when they got all riled up over the Caldari discovering and colonizing systems independently of the Federation that we helped found. The war was most directly started by an act of Caldari dishonesty. Not an entirely unwarranted one, perhaps - the Federation was after all abusing its majority representation in the senate to impose trade regulations and restrictions that the Caldari were powerless to oppose - but a dishonest and dishonourable act nonetheless. Bear in mind that at that time, the distinction between Caldari and Federation was academic at best - we helped found it, after all. If it hadn't been for an unhealthy clash between Caldari stubbornness and the Gallentean desire to be the ones whose philosophy is dominant, we'd still be members of the Federation to this day.

The Gallente in the Federation Senate have and continue to abuse their majority, it is called the Gallente Federation for a reason.

The Caldari corporations are not the only ones to hide projects in systems beyond Federation control in order to avoid Federation, Gallente, regulation. The Intaki in Syndicate, ORE, and Serpentis, all left the Federation because they found its overly complex corporate regulations to be over-zealous, inefficient, and meddlesome. Despite gaining our independence, the Gallente controlled Federation government continues to inflict its will on Caldari corporations through tariffs and embargo based on damned Scope sensationalized reporting.

No, it was not dishonest or dishonorable; our ancestors were left no recourse by the Gallente majority in the Senate that put in place law after law that benefited the Gallente at the cost to any other racial group in the Federation. The only way to ensure our culture, our civilization survived was to hide our progress from the jealous and greedy Gallente.

Could the Federation avoided civil war? Doubtful; the continued aggressive legislating by the Gallente for their own benefit would have continued to stir and bowl the cauldron. But maybe another decade would have been enough to get all of the Intaki, Jin-Mei, and Mannar to have also left the Federation.

That the Senate authorized its CONCORD representative to put Intaki on the list of planets that could be occupied by opposing capsuleer forces speaks to how little has changed in 200 years. The Federation may have an Intaki president; but the Gallente are still pulling the strings and abusing the minority groups of the Federation for its own benefit.

Fabienne Gold
Posted - 2009.03.21 16:58:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Fabienne Gold on 21/03/2009 16:58:37
Our current president is an Intaki. I doubt that he would be chosen by the "Gallentean establishment"?

Merowech Hammerfest
Posted - 2009.03.21 16:59:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Merowech Hammerfest on 21/03/2009 17:01:26
Edited by: Merowech Hammerfest on 21/03/2009 17:00:15
Originally by: Stitcher
Technically, the Gallente did have a damn good point when they got all riled up over the Caldari discovering and colonizing systems independently of the Federation that we helped found. The war was most directly started by an act of Caldari dishonesty. Not an entirely unwarranted one, perhaps - the Federation was after all abusing its majority representation in the senate to impose trade regulations and restrictions that the Caldari were powerless to oppose - but a dishonest and dishonourable act nonetheless. Bear in mind that at that time, the distinction between Caldari and Federation was academic at best - we helped found it, after all. If it hadn't been for an unhealthy clash between Caldari stubbornness and the Gallentean desire to be the ones whose philosophy is dominant, we'd still be members of the Federation to this day.


It was a simple act of profit. The Federation did not seem advance our aims, thus we split. Unfortunately for most trade and business, this lead to destruction, but ultimately to aggressive competition as well. Latter is an advancing trait for every society.

Quote:
Empathy is a powerful tool, Pilot. Those unfortunates who can't peer into the minds and motives of others are restricted to a world of greys and blacks and whites. I take pride in at least trying to see both sides of a given issue. And believe me, it makes the world a far more interesting and colourful place.


Even though what you claim might be true, the reality is not changed by understanding other individuals and communities. Stringent analysation of an issue is a more advanced and able method to conclude the best possible decision. Empathy, and ideals plus moral standards as a consequence, does not serve this goal. By reverting to these standards, you hinder yourself in your capability to fully analyse and act since ethics restrict upon possible options to be choosed from. In case the most advantegous option lies without the ethically allowed spectrum, a loss of efficiency is to be experienced.

A society is only able to take a limited amount of inefficiency before collapse is immedient.

Quote:
Embrace imperfection, in other words.


Ambition always was the enemy of success, wasn't it?

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.03.21 17:16:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Dex Nederland on 21/03/2009 17:17:38
Originally by: Fabienne Gold
Edited by: Fabienne Gold on 21/03/2009 16:58:37
Our current president is an Intaki. I doubt that he would be chosen by the "Gallentean establishment"?

The president of a democracy is all powerful; no limitations placed on the position by the Senate at all?

Fabienne Gold
Posted - 2009.03.21 17:22:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Fabienne Gold on 21/03/2009 17:22:20
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Edited by: Dex Nederland on 21/03/2009 17:17:38
Originally by: Fabienne Gold
Edited by: Fabienne Gold on 21/03/2009 16:58:37
Our current president is an Intaki. I doubt that he would be chosen by the "Gallentean establishment"?

The president of a democracy is all powerful; no limitations placed on the position by the Senate at all?



This is the concept of the separation of powers. The Senate is only one institution, and even there, many senators are Intaki themselves. Of course, you might argue that they are controlled by the Gallentean establishment as well, but I doubt that this will depict your eloquence in dismantling arguments in a different way than a three-years old would.

Edit: If I could only make a reference to Weimar Germany here ... Cool And please don't feel insulted by Fabienne's arrogant tone. Heck, she's a spoiled brat after all!

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2009.03.21 20:42:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
You seem to be forgetting that the creation of many of those colonies predate The Caldari homeworld forming the Federation with the Gallente. Those colonies and those living on them were never a part of the Federation to begin with. That revisionist historians want to claim the entire Caldari race joined the Federation is their mistake to live with. The first war started because the Gallente found that there were locations they weren't leeching off of or forcing their way of life on, and that they had no legal authority to do so, and it made them mad.


Your argument - if it's true at all - makes the Caldari of the era out-and-out liars, founding the Federation along with the Gallente, the Intaki, Mannar, etc. under false pretenses and/or presents an interesting double-standard on the part of what claim the Federation had over planets involved. If these colonies founded independently of the State were autonomous, and thus the Federation had and has no claim over them, does the Federation have a claim over the planets that were founded after the Caldari helped form the Federation? In making a distinction between these two types of secret colony, you open yourself to this line of inquiry.

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2009.03.22 13:00:00 - [69]
 

I was occupied for the greater part of yesterday; replying to this later than Iíd wish.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Originally by: BloodBird
I find it incredibly arrogant and smug of you to think that you can lecture me about how wars work, as if I did not know.


Do you, now? And yet you still say things like this:

Quote:
Crushing my morale Aria, would involve...

...the State is merely digging its own grave.


You're saying that the State Protectorate should base its strategy on the feelings of a single Intaki capsuleer?


No. Iím saying that Iíd love to see them do that; it would solve a great deal of issues.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
More than that, you're proposing the most sensible way to fight a war is for both sides to fortify their borders until not a fleck of space dust can pass uninspected and sitting?


Itís not the most sensible way to fight a war. In war, the objective is to kill your enemy. To do that, you need to find the enemy first. If both sides played defense and did not attack at all, this war would soon muddle out into nothing. Basically, we would have peace even if we were officially at ďwarĒ with one another.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Maybe it is, at that. But the whole scenario is nothing but wishful thinking.


Of course itís just wishful thinking. I donít honestly expect it to happened, or kid myself that I can convince anyone to do so. What I am saying, is this would be the most effective way to render this war null and void. No one fights, no one dies, and no one suffers. Everyone wins.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
The fleets may not clash directly, but, as you have observed, this limited war is very real. Verin may feel that the Empires are only posturing at one another, but I've known ever since I noticed that Intaki was on the battlefield that this proxy war was in deadly earnest. That is, unless the idiot propagandists are right, and the Federation really doesn't care about your minority bloodline.

The warzones was set up by CONCORD, not the Federal government. So no, those fools in CAIN and the rest of the Protectorate are indeed kidding themselves. Iím not particularly happy about this, for obvious reasons. But it is fast, it is part of our reality, and now my worst-case scenario has happened.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Consider, in that context, what is going to happen if you fail to retake your homeworld. The State is "digging its own grave," you say?


Indeed they are. There was a time when FOOM, in CAINís stead, was steadily annexing Black Rise. They left and soon the Provists turned things around. This war, I am sure, will turn again, sooner perhaps; because taking this planet will inspire every loyal Intaki who feels like doing something about this, to join us. You are digging your own grave, because by pouring rocket-fuel on the burning shuttle, as it was; your merely alienating yourself further and offering us reasons to treat you as we are being treated. A desire for revenge and hatred for the enemy are powerful emotions, easily able to fuel our anger for a good, long while.

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2009.03.22 13:01:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Supposing you're wrong? Supposing the Protectorate is too large, too strong, too (finally) well-organized? Supposing you lose? You'll try, try again? Keep trying until you win? Don't be ridiculous.

Your morale and resources will flag. Your spirits will fail you. Eventually, negotiation will seem like the only realistic option for getting back your world


If this happends, if the provists are indeed to powerful to be stopped, we will merely keep trying. Negotiations might be the only ďrealisticĒ option left, but whatís realistic and what we feel like doing are two different things. It remains to be seen if the provists can be stopped or not, and what we will do if they can, or canít.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
I care for realities, pilot-- truths, insights, personal journeys. Your disdain changes nothing of the realities you face, excepting your own ability to face them.


Disdain? Contempt, scorn? If you accuse me of looking down on the provists you are most likely right. Itís highly likely I do. As far as the war goes, I try to look at my enemy with a professional viewpoint. The provists are our enemies, enemies should not be hate-objects, or underestimated.

Kill the enemy. That is all.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2009.03.22 14:35:00 - [71]
 

I, Bloodbird, and the entire rest of Mixed Metaphor (such as it is) stands ready to sacrifice every single cent of ISK and every ship we own to defend the Federation.

'course, that ain't exactly plan A.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.22 15:02:00 - [72]
 

Andreas, the Federation will fail us all before the end. It is unworthy of your pledge - or perhaps you are made for each other. I cannot decide.


Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2009.03.22 15:12:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Tellnan Matkiel
Andreas, the Federation will fail us all before the end. It is unworthy of your pledge - or perhaps you are made for each other. I cannot decide.


That's your opinion. Believe it if you want, but please don't present it as fact - and please, my name is right there, in a suitably-large font for easy reading - the least you can do if you're trying to convince me of something is spell it right.

Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
The Industrial Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.22 15:34:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
That's your opinion. Believe it if you want, but please don't present it as fact - and please, my name is right there, in a suitably-large font for easy reading - the least you can do if you're trying to convince me of something is spell it right.

Well, I will apologise for mispelling your name, but I stand by what I say.

Damith d'Estelas
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.24 16:16:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Ayd'n d'Kuang
Originally by: Damar Rocarion

Actually member of the Intaki Liberation Front repeatedly joined Caldari fleets to attack pirates and members of the FDU. I can only speak from my own experiences of course but rest of the various Intaki separatists appeared inactive during this offensive.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General




The official position of the Intaki Liberation Front, with regard to this factional conflict, is neutrality. While we view the ongoing activities within our home system with great interest, we realize it likely does affect us. Yet.

While it's true that ILF pilots have flown in anti-pirate operations with Caldari-centric pilots, we've done the same with those from Federation-militia corporations. At the other end of the spectrum, Protectorate and pro-Fed militia pilots have aggressed ILF pilots in and around Intaki. We don't show favoritism (officially) and expect to see none. Negotiations and standings are handled as per our dealings with corporations, not factions.

Interesting. I've been aggressed more than once by an ILF pilot - Yuri Intaki - flying with Caldari militia fleets, and I know that others in the Federation Militia have been too. Not once have I seen any sign of an ILF pilot flying with a Federation Militia team in the Intaki area.

So...let me see... perhaps you've got all of our corporations set to KOS / regard us all as pirates? Or just maybe you make public statements of your "official" position, while instructing or encouraging your pilots to act differently.

Whatever. The disparity between your statements and what I see when I fly around Placid can't do anything to damage the regard I have for the ILF, since I had none anyway.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2009.03.28 09:41:00 - [76]
 

Madame d'Estelas

The ILF has taken a policy of neutrality in the factional warfare, choosing instead to continue its long-standing policy of creating "blue" relationships with corporations on an individual basis, based largely on how those corps view the Intaki claim to self-determination.

Corporations like your own have a long history of steadfast rejection of even discussing the matter. Moreover, our professed desire for self-rule has caused Federation Militia corps to become openly hostile, although the ILF has NEVER advocated a violent separation from the Federation. One recent offer to exchange blue standings with a pro-Federation militia corp was met with a threat of war declaration.

Your flippant comment of holding no regard for us only exemplifies the arrogance and condescension we have come to expect from you and your ilk.

Truth be told, any apparent collusion on the part of the ILF and Caldari militia is the direct result of a lack of willingness on the part of the Federation to even consider the reasons why the both the people of Intaki and the Federation would benefit from a free and independent Intaki state.

Wulfgar Do'Orden
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.03.28 13:22:00 - [77]
 

Turn to the Faith. For only in God can the Caldari remove the stain of the Gallente from New Eden, to long have these fools been allowed to meddle in the affairs of others.

I fully support the Caldari efforts in this venture and ask is there anything a lowly Amarrian preacher do to help?

My slaves are in Gallente space, on their stations, on their planets ready to suppress the Gallente ground forces and security personel in preporation for the Caldari state to Liberate these worlds!

Faith is your only shield
Convert or Die


Cipher7
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:17:00 - [78]
 


Yes...keep gloating.

Pride goeth before the fall.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.30 02:51:00 - [79]
 

God willing, these successes against the Gallente Cancer and all that it stands for will continue.


Pages: 1 2 [3]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only