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VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.18 05:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: VB Sarge on 25/03/2009 09:39:41
Edited by: VB Sarge on 18/03/2009 06:34:41

Using this map:
Wormhole Classification Map

and a LOT of self research (on behalf of myself and my alliance) and hours of discussions, I'm pretty sure we have deciphered this map in a very easy to read manner. I highly suggest having the Wormhole Classification Map open while reading this.

As a warning, sometimes I talk in a roundabout manner, so apologies if that happens.

First off, when you right click on a wormhole on the k space side of things, it'll tell you "this leads to unknown space" (class 1, 2, 3) "this leads to dangerous unknown space" (class 4, 5) or "this leads to deadly unknown space" (class 6)

Now, we start to utilize the map more(link above)
Class 1 is the easiest, and Class 6 is the hardest.

*edit about the alphabetical manner*
There doesn't seem to be any correlation *so far* between the designation of the wormhole beyond class. I.E. H121 and Z971 could both lead to the same Class 1 wormhole. The numerification is likely used as different tags for different wormhole stats, like, say, H121 lasts longer than Z971, or maybe lets in less mass before collapsing, etc.

From here, you can see the general difficulty of a W space before even entering it, by comparing the number, "W237" for example, with the table given. While it is difficult at this level to measure "difficulty" in a figurative sense, it still gives us an idea.

*edit*
K162 Wormholes seem to be wormholes that lead back to a previously known location. So if you are going from W space to W space, the gate back will be labeled K162, for example. If you are going from W space to High Sec, it will be labeled K162 on the High sec side, basically letting you know, someone has probed it from the other side.

Now, we pretty much know the difficulty of any wormhole we are about to enter, more or less. Onto the next part, Class 7, 8, 9.

This is by chance incredibly easier. Class 7, 8, 9 wormholes are wormholes that lead OUT of W space and into K space.
Class 7 leads to highsec
Class 8 leads to lowsec
Class 9 leads to 0.0

I highly encourage the entire Eve community to get on board with this development. In the search for truth, I hope that more people can come forward with information that either helps assert this opinion or proves it incorrect.

-VB Sarge

Useful Links:
Wormhole Thingie Great little program that tells you just about everything you need to know about a wormhole before you even go in it. Pretty much trumps my post, the lil buggers...

Wormhole Difficulty Collaboration Attempt An attempt to get the Eve Community together and help figure out just what it takes to take on a wormhole, including ship sizes you'll need and gang sizes, what you can solo, and what will kill you, etc.

NCP Bullet
Obsidian Operations
Cartel Syndicate
Posted - 2009.03.18 05:35:00 - [2]
 

sounds like a personal problem

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:04:00 - [3]
 

K162 is not a wild card. It is a wormhole that is spawned after someone goes through a wormhole. If you find a wormhole and it's not K162, the one on the other end will be K162. If you scanned down K162, it means someone already scanned the wormhole on the other end and went through it, spawning the K162 that you found.

Gypsy Overlord
Amarr
Super French Mining Merchant Surrender Fleet
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Gypsy Overlord on 18/03/2009 06:09:22
The above confuses me.

NCP Bullet
Obsidian Operations
Cartel Syndicate
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:09:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: NCP Bullet on 18/03/2009 06:14:06
so you are saying K162 is a tail? or an Exit?

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Aniel Zaar
K162 is not a wild card. It is a wormhole that is spawned after someone goes through a wormhole. If you find a wormhole and it's not K162, the one on the other end will be K162. If you scanned down K162, it means someone already scanned the wormhole on the other end and went through it, spawning the K162 that you found.


So we have a wormhole the leads from High Sec to Unknown Space that someone is already in, but has not found the wormhole that leads to high sec. I'm in the high sec system and I probe the wormhole. Its got a name of Z647. I go through it, and you claim on the other side it will be named K162? If not, please explain further

If yes, what would happen if he had found it first? What would it then be named B247, implying it would lead to high sec? Would it then become named K162 on my side?

I guess what I'm saying is I think your post need further clarification, as to me, it does not make a whole lot of sense.

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:16:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kulmid
I'm in the high sec system and I probe the wormhole. Its got a name of Z647. I go through it, and you claim on the other side it will be named K162?


Yes. In other words, whatever wormhole you go through, if it's not K162 itself, you will find K162 on the other side, connected to it.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:21:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aniel Zaar

Yes. In other words, whatever wormhole you go through, if it's not K162 itself, you will find K162 on the other side, connected to it.


Does the wormhole on the other side get spawned when you actually probe the wormhole?

Lets say hypothetically, I'm in an unknown system, my alliance mate is in high sec, we are both probing wormholes and they happened to be the same wormhole (his leads to me, mine leads to him). We both probe it down, but don't go through, he is in high sec on it, I am in Unknown Space on it. What will they then be named? Then if we each jump through, what will they be named?

Basically what I'm asking is, does the wormhole on the other side named K162 spawn when you land on grid, or probe the wormhole spawning it, or when you actually jump through?

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:27:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kulmid
Does the wormhole on the other side get spawned when you actually probe the wormhole?

Lets say hypothetically, I'm in an unknown system, my alliance mate is in high sec, we are both probing wormholes and they happened to be the same wormhole (his leads to me, mine leads to him). We both probe it down, but don't go through, he is in high sec on it, I am in Unknown Space on it. What will they then be named? Then if we each jump through, what will they be named?

Basically what I'm asking is, does the wormhole on the other side named K162 spawn when you land on grid, or probe the wormhole spawning it, or when you actually jump through?



This is an excellent question. Chances of that ever being discovered are so slim, that I doubt you will ever get a certain answer. I think that the wormhole has no defined wormhole numbers attached to its entrance. When you land on the grid, your side of the exit gets a name (maybe depending on where it leads), and the other end is assigned K162.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:31:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Kulmid on 18/03/2009 06:34:54
Originally by: Aniel Zaar


This is an excellent question. Chances of that ever being discovered are so slim, that I doubt you will ever get a certain answer. I think that the wormhole has no defined wormhole numbers attached to its entrance. When you land on the grid, your side of the exit gets a name (maybe depending on where it leads), and the other end is assigned K162.


Yes, going back looking at the few wormholes I've probed since this thread was started, I'm seeing that what you say sounds very plausible, to the point I'd say its true. The last 3 in the chain I've gone through, have been K162 on the side that I jumped to, and a classification name on the side that I probed.

Good information.

Edit: Also thinking back, I probed a wormhole in low sec, named K162, when I jumped through I there were a few people inside. I asked them if they knew of any wormhole out and they told me they had probed the wormhole I had come though.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:35:00 - [11]
 

Edited original post for clarity on the K162 topic, hopefully in an easy to read format.

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:35:00 - [12]
 

It's hard not to notice when the wormholes with names lead to the K162 every time. I've used this information to get an idea of whether or not someone is on the other side, and if the scanned the exit yet.

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: VB Sarge
Edited original post for clarity on the K162 topic, hopefully in an easy to read format.


Actually, I think your map gave K162 a very precise name - destination wormhole - only spawns as a destination for another one.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 06:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aniel Zaar
It's hard not to notice when the wormholes with names lead to the K162 every time. I've used this information to get an idea of whether or not someone is on the other side, and if the scanned the exit yet.


Yeah I agree its something we should have realized, apparently none of us were able to put it together. Embarassed

Snow Banshee
Amarr
Ruatha Holding
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:04:00 - [15]
 

WOA!!

great job ...

Instrument Dealer
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:37:00 - [16]
 

First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest

And it says what K162 is at the top so ...

Gypsy Overlord
Amarr
Super French Mining Merchant Surrender Fleet
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Instrument Dealer
First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest

And it says what K162 is at the top so ...


You is trollin.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:43:00 - [18]
 

i'm sorry, maybe you have done hours and hours of exploration first hand, cataloging every single wormhole you have gone into, and noting trends you find with multiple other people. my apologies that everything that has been discussed previously in this thread has been proven by our research, and, will continue to be proven, until someone can come up with some more factual proof saying that we are 100% wrong.

Seeing how, I live in a wormhole, and have had encounters with wormholes in high sec, low sec, and 0.0, and lo and behold, EVERY single wormhole I have gone into falls into play with the explanation of the map I have provided, obviously, because you read it somewhere it has to be true.

Proof, or stfu.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:44:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kulmid on 18/03/2009 07:48:26
Originally by: Instrument Dealer
First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest


Completely incorrect.

Class 1 are soloable in an Ishtar, class 5 you get slaughtered in RRing BS fleets.

I think its bold of you to say Class 6 cannot connect to 7. While I agree it is very highly unlikely, I don't think we can say its impossible.

I would say there is a correlation between sec of the known space and the unknown space difficulty.

Edit: As I've done here, a ROUGH grid has been laid over the two maps. Known space being on the left, unknown space on the right. I would say the class of system you are going into will somewhat relate to where you are, along with the true sec of the system. So a high sec system will more often than not, link to Class 1. And low true sec 0.0 will link to Class 5/6.

Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.03.18 07:48:00 - [20]
 

As per CCP, every sec has a chance of spawning every kind of w-hole. There are very few impossible scenarios, and they are made impossible for balance - ie no cap ships in high sec, no supercaps in w-space, etc.

E150d
Posted - 2009.03.18 10:13:00 - [21]
 

Having found K162 wormhole from k-space and w-space, I'm still unsure on something. Does the naming of the wormhole indicate that someone has travelled through it, or juts discovered it. Theoretically it could be either.

1. Person probes a wormhole, and warps to it. As they are the first person to load it on their grid, it is properly spawned there and then, and the corresponding wormhole is spawned and named appropriately on the other side

2. Person probes wormhole as above, wormhole created. The corresponding wormhole on the other side is not spawned until the person travels through this wormhole - at this time it is then named appropriately as an "exit wormhole" - K162.

These options are based on the assumption that the wormholes are named as they spawn and then have a fixed name for their duration. I think it would be an unlikely implementation for them to be spawned nameless and then detect which one of the pair is loaded on a grid first before naming both of them.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2009.03.18 10:26:00 - [22]
 

I think the fact that the whole disagreement so far has just been on the K162 convention, means we're pretty spot on with having this whole worm hole thing figured out, heh, good times.

From our experience, I would say that my edited version on the K162 phenomena is 95% correct, giving some room for error. I believe wormholes are spawned with their name in place, and then "tagged" K162 on whichever end is appropriate once "discovered" This would not only have a less of a load on the server, but also is the more logical method.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.03.18 11:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kulmid on 18/03/2009 11:02:49
Originally by: E150d
Having found K162 wormhole from k-space and w-space, I'm still unsure on something. Does the naming of the wormhole indicate that someone has travelled through it, or juts discovered it. Theoretically it could be either.

1. Person probes a wormhole, and warps to it. As they are the first person to load it on their grid, it is properly spawned there and then, and the corresponding wormhole is spawned and named appropriately on the other side

2. Person probes wormhole as above, wormhole created. The corresponding wormhole on the other side is not spawned until the person travels through this wormhole - at this time it is then named appropriately as an "exit wormhole" - K162.

These options are based on the assumption that the wormholes are named as they spawn and then have a fixed name for their duration. I think it would be an unlikely implementation for them to be spawned nameless and then detect which one of the pair is loaded on a grid first before naming both of them.


It would be nearly impossible to verify 100%, but the assumption would be, the wormholes don't actually spawn until you load the grid its on. Until you load that grid, there is just a place holder on grid, as all exploration/missions currently work if I'm not mistaken. At the point the grid is loaded, a wormhole is spawned, named appropriately, and the other side is named K162.

Edit: Fixed spelling

Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
Posted - 2009.03.18 13:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: VB Sarge
Using this map:
Wormhole Classification Map



Does somebody know where this map comes from? Is it based on empirical data (a lot of exploration) or is it some kind of API download from the database? Are the map and the WH codes complete? (For instance I am missing a wormhole with code "F..." while all other letters are there.)

Originally by: VB Sarge
It also seems, that reading from left to right, it goes from easiest to hardest (basically an "A" wormhole will be easier than a "Z" wormhole in the same class)


I'm in doubt about this assumption, especially when I consider the wormholes going to a known space system. So far I had the following WHs to K-space:

- U210 leading to a 0.3 system (but U210 is the last of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.1 system (hardest low sec type))

- A239 leading to a 0.3 system (but A239 is the first of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.4 system (easiest low sec type))

- N110 leading to a 0.5 system (N110 is one before the last of class 7 codes, this could confirm your theory)

- U210 leading to a 0.4 system (but U210 is the last of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.1 system (hardest low sec type))

- R051 leading to a 0.2 system (R051 is one before the last of class 8 codes, maybe this could be OK again)

In total there are too many exception from the rule imo. Perhaps the relation between the code ordering and the difficulty of the target system is only applicable to W-space but it would seem a little bit inconsequent to me.


Midnight Firestarter
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.18 13:23:00 - [25]
 

So ......

I'm in system J1000000

I jump into J130000 (Dangerous system) using gate X877.

In system J130000 I appear next to a gate labled K162.

I find a gate labled C247 (Unknown system).

So what information can I conclude becuase the only thing I
understand is that I'm moving from a Dangerous (level 3-4-5)to
a Unknown system (level 1-2-3) and the exit gate is always called K162.

Sorry for being thick and thankyou

Loki L'Odin
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.18 14:45:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: VB Sarge
Edited by: VB Sarge on 18/03/2009 06:34:41
As a warning, sometimes I talk in a roundabout manner, so apologies if that happens.



He's being modest here, usually on Vent he speaks absolute garbage Laughing

♥ you

Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2009.03.18 17:29:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Cameron Freerunner on 20/03/2009 05:51:38
1. OP should give credit to the individual who first posted that map, Argendta. Here's the original thread.

2. The hypothetical with two pilots scanning the same WH from opposite sides: I'm pretty sure both pilots would get a classification/ID appropriate for the system on the other side. As soon as one of them jumps through, the name on the side of the WH he jumped to would change to K162.

3. Just in case there's any doubt: If you see K162, it means someone has ALREADY jumped from the far side to your side. If you are in W space and find a WH other than the one you came through AND it's named K162, then someone else has come into that system. I'm not sure yet whether more than one WH can exist in a W space system at the same time. If not, then it would also indicate that your original WH has collapsed. Finally, if two people were in a system, found the same WH, and went through separately, they would never know from just WH information (though if one of them was as big as an Orca, etc. then the message about how much traffic has passed through might tell you something).

Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
Posted - 2009.03.18 17:39:00 - [28]
 

This may sound like a silly question (but we had some weird results in Sisi some weeks ago so thats why I ask) but does anybody know if both sides of a wormhole (always) collapse at the same time?

Has somebody checked this on TQ?

Regards,

M.M.

Murasaki Ryujin
Posted - 2009.03.18 18:42:00 - [29]
 

Is there anything that forces a WH to be linked before it is jumped through? Is there any test to determine if it is?

To envision this you must seperate the concept of WH (entarance) from the link (connection between two systems).

When you scan down a WH you either find a used WH or an new WH. A used WH has a link to a specific other system, has k162 on one side and another designator on the other dependant on the class of the system it connects to.

A new WH on the other hand has no link as yet, just a class designator which will determine the type of system it will go to (and the info that shows up in the show info tab). When the first ship jumps through, alink is created in a system that matches the predetermined class of the WH and a new WH (gate) with a class of k162 is created in the chosen destination system. This means that no WH can be detected from both sides before it is transited and seems to me to require less overhead of the servers maintaing all of the possible WHs at the same time. It also means tha no type name needs to be changed, which doesn't sound very tidy to me.

thoughts? evidence? experiments?

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2009.03.18 18:47:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Murasaki Ryujin
Is there anything that forces a WH to be linked before it is jumped through? Is there any test to determine if it is?

To envision this you must seperate the concept of WH (entarance) from the link (connection between two systems).

When you scan down a WH you either find a used WH or an new WH. A used WH has a link to a specific other system, has k162 on one side and another designator on the other dependant on the class of the system it connects to.

A new WH on the other hand has no link as yet, just a class designator which will determine the type of system it will go to (and the info that shows up in the show info tab). When the first ship jumps through, alink is created in a system that matches the predetermined class of the WH and a new WH (gate) with a class of k162 is created in the chosen destination system. This means that no WH can be detected from both sides before it is transited and seems to me to require less overhead of the servers maintaing all of the possible WHs at the same time. It also means tha no type name needs to be changed, which doesn't sound very tidy to me.

thoughts? evidence? experiments?


This is exactly how I envisioned it. It's very similar to the phenomenon of being the first person to enter a system after downtime. Until a system is entered, it is not "turned on".


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