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Malena Panic
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:30:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
The covert ops bonus is a huge mistake... This is power creep in its ugliest form


Originally by: Dr Resheph
the scanning cpu bonus is just ridiculous because I don't agree with the fitting requirements of the Integrated launcher to begin with... there is no reason the fittings shouldn't be 60tf instead of 220tf.


Originally by: Dr Repheph
Lastly, the bubble immunity bonus shows you have some room for creativity still, but it's fairly ridiculous because a) bubbles need an overhaul and b) need to be available in all areas of space/combat before you go ahead and design entire ships around evasion.


Originally by: Dr Resheph
Unrelated to 4th tier subsystems, I make the following requests:

- no skillpoint loss penalty if destruction takes place in WH space
- full immunity from positive and negative environmental effects in WH space

That should get interest going.


This is an entirely well-reasoned and persuasive post. (what are you doing here?) ;)

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:34:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Vecila
Just how many ships and modules does scram immunity nullify, i.e. make totaly worthless? How many development hours were put into creating all those ships, only to have someone come along now and say sorry, you wasted your time?

Cloak, invincible to tackle, each ss tank 40m3 for easy transport means no one will go traveling without one in their cargo ( i know i wouldn't). Incidentally, how does this effect concord?


I don't believe it's immunity to scams, just bubbles.

The combination of cloak + bubble immunity makes this ship an unstoppable traveler...I'm sure they know this, so they must have a reason for it.

Vrikshaka
Yawn Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:54:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
Unrelated to 4th tier subsystems, I make the following requests:

- no skillpoint loss penalty if destruction takes place in WH space
- full immunity from positive and negative environmental effects in WH space


This is a good idea, and very much in-line with the origin of the shipclass we're discussing.

Originally by: IceAero
I don't believe it's immunity to scams, just bubbles.


ROFL. Now there's an addition that would get interest going.

Pliskkenn
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:58:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Tarminic

Scan Probe Bonuses:
I very much like this, but I don't like the tractor range/speed bonus. Why, you ask? Because it's completely useless for anything other than wrecks! I would prefer to see something along these lines:
All hulls: Bonus to tractor beams
Gallente: 5% Archeology bonus
Caldari: 5% Hacking Bonus
Minmatar: 5% Salvage bonus
Amarr: Not sure here, maybe an additional tractor beam bonus?
Otherwise, very good stuff. Very Happy


We did look at mini-profession bonuses but decided to scrap them. We didn't really have enough of them and we believe they belong on a smaller/cheaper vessel.





Burst model please. They actually look nifty in Premium Very Happy

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.25 14:05:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: IceAero
Originally by: Vecila
Just how many ships and modules does scram immunity nullify, i.e. make totaly worthless? How many development hours were put into creating all those ships, only to have someone come along now and say sorry, you wasted your time?

Cloak, invincible to tackle, each ss tank 40m3 for easy transport means no one will go traveling without one in their cargo ( i know i wouldn't). Incidentally, how does this effect concord?


I don't believe it's immunity to scams, just bubbles.

The combination of cloak + bubble immunity makes this ship an unstoppable traveler...I'm sure they know this, so they must have a reason for it.


That's correct - if you read up on pg 1 iirc Nozh states it only applies to HIC spheres, interdictor bubbles and deployable bubbles.

It does make a nigh on unstoppable traveler, but you're sacrificing a lot to acquire that - certainly not a 'gank mobile' - perhaps a role as a forward scout, or transport ship?

From what we can see so far the cloaked subsystem is limited in many respects, it suggests only 4 high slots, 1 for the cloak leaves just 3 for weapon systems - not great for dealing damage. You cant really then fit a probe launcher (unless you can handle just 2 turrets.

Potentially you could fit a cloak, and have 3 turrets slots and the electronic subsystem for amarr for 2 x nos/neut which is the equivalent of a pilgrim, but with no TD bonus. (In which case just buy a pilgrim tbh).

Anyone hoping to build a cloaked, bubble immune gank mobile is going to be disappointed here - but you could gain one or other of these advantages to create a hybrid vessel of some description.

C.



Aya Vandenovich
Posted - 2009.03.25 14:12:00 - [156]
 

I suppose one of the answers to the anti-bubble subsystem would be a reduced cargo hold, but I'm not sure how that would balance with the "ammo-less" legion. Maybe give the Legion a smaller cargo bay overall and then make it a % reduction?

EYEDOLL
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.25 14:54:00 - [157]
 

Define "immunity".. Does the immunity to bubbles also include T3 cruisers not being sucked into drag bubbles? Or doest it just mean they can warp out of a bubble but still land on the edge of it ? If they still get sucked in, but can warp out right away, they are still pretty beatable if you put a ship with drones out on the warp-in point I guess.. Would just move camps from incoming to outgoing gates. If it makes them land on 0 on a bubbled gate, that would suck a bit more imo :P

Ol' Delsai
Caldari
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.25 17:37:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey!


Also. The price, don't panic quite yet, we're still confident the price will go down.

Comments!





Honestly,

I'm really pessimistic about the price's going down.

In the manufacturing process there's actually two bottleneck :
- the first one is the C-320 and C-540 fullerite gas. They are meant to be rare but on top of this there is the difficulty of sleepers NPC guarding these particular ladar site (BS) You should remove one or the other constraint
- the second one is the tech 3 subsystems/hulls BPC creation ... a lot too much constraint very rare Radar site (haven't found one yet) + really hard site's cleaning (most people are doing anomaly and not radar sites) + restriction on research equipment + a lot of loot to reverse-engineered. ==> Even though fullerite would in time become cheaper, the BPC will remain way to expensive

If you remove these two bottlenecks you'll have price in a range of 1x-3x T2 cruiser. If note, you'll have 20x prices of a T2 cruiser.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 18:12:00 - [159]
 

Biggest problem is complete separation of T3 from existing production schemes... :X
It's too late to change things, i'm afraid, but it would be VERY good also LOGICAL step to build new technology on the existing base, reusing existing datacores (knowledge), combining them with artifacts and interfaces of foreign race to produce more advanced ships.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.25 20:29:00 - [160]
 

+100% to overheating bonus, probably should be on the hull, would give the tech3 cruisers a real edge but only for a limited duration

D'Artagnan
Bladerunners
Posted - 2009.03.25 21:48:00 - [161]
 

I could agree with the CO cloak and the immunity to bubbles IF you Nozh promise me one of the lvl 5 sub systems will be a cloak detection system :)

Templayer
Amarr
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.03.26 05:48:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Templayer on 26/03/2009 05:51:33
Edited by: Templayer on 26/03/2009 05:48:57
Please Nozh , Dont do it!
Covops system is a fail! Doing something more powerful than FO will be OP, doing something less powerful than FO will be meaningless.
Please dont waste a whole subsystem to very unnecesary bonus.

Buble immunity is a win. But bubble immunity + covops is a fail!

Its better if we see more unique bonuses like bubble immunity than making an "almost recon ship".

Good suggestion above immunity to WH space effects , if it is possible technicaly than it will be good placement for 5th Defence or better Propulsion subsystem.

Cloak detention is also a very good idea for Electronic or even Offensive subsystem.
Lets say something like all cloaked ships in 10-15km get automaticaly decloaked.

Clyneva
Posted - 2009.03.26 07:32:00 - [163]
 

How about giving the cloaking subsystem for the Proteus +25 Drone BW and a drone damage bonus, at the cost of either an additional turret and/or a reduced turret bonus.

That way it can at least field a set of mediums(with the engineering subsystem), and it'll better set it apart from the current recons.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.26 07:45:00 - [164]
 

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser"

Would be good if it could have some kind of range bonus. Without this the ship will be very similar to a Sacrilege in terms of offensive power.

Masempa
Posted - 2009.03.26 12:11:00 - [165]
 

Serious guys,

Not being able to test more than 1 combination of t3 ship before they where released on TQ took the **** and probably violated Q&A proceedures.

Now it just looks bad.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.26 13:26:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser"

Would be good if it could have some kind of range bonus. Without this the ship will be very similar to a Sacrilege in terms of offensive power.


T3 in general has sheer defensive capability, so that amended the comparable offensive capability by longer fights, so you can confidently deliver more damage against similar target, comparing to T2 counterpart.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.26 13:28:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Masempa
Serious guys,

Not being able to test more than 1 combination of t3 ship before they where released on TQ took the **** and probably violated Q&A proceedures.

Now it just looks bad.

It's your problem, really, T3 was on SiSi for quite long time. Enough to realize bad sides of certain fittings, and changes was (obviously) made from the negative responses, rather than positive ones.

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.03.26 17:23:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Cloaked warfare is and remains a valid tactic, in its simplest form it typifies guerilla style / small gang combat (and as such is the flip side of blob warfare) - and is well suited for the Crusier class of ships. As its selected on an Offensive subsystem you sacrifice damage for stealth which is only proper in my view.

Cloaks are, in essence, their own counter as whilst cloaked you cant inflict any actual damage only a psychological impact.

I dont believe the Force Recons are made redundant with this subsystem, they have EW capabilities which the T3 vessel will not have unless specifically fitted for such (reducing its damage capabilities even further - probably to a point where they are notably less effective than a Force Recon. Indeed by your argument you could suggest that all T2 ships are made redundant by T3, just on the basis that they can mimic T2 capabilities (i.e damage output, tank etc).

C.



1. Guerrilla warfare isn't about modules or ships and is NOT the same thing as "cloak warfare". You can do guerrilla warfare with any sub-capital class in EVE. It's about tactics and reaction time.

The only reason covert ops ships are currently used as support is because they don't have the tank or damage potential to compose an entire fleet. T3 will have this. Furthermore, even if you could make the argument that adding more cloak warfare is helping guerrilla warfare, you can't make the argument that it needs helping to begin with.

2. I said "mostly or completely redundant". Falcon and Rapier will still be useful for their web and ecm roles, which no other ships do better. Tanking and damage is not part of the value proposition.

There is little reason in flying a Pilgrim and Arazu if you can use another ship with a strong tank and more damage? It basically devolves into a tradeoff: EW bonuses for worse tanking/damage. Instead of being the best covert combat ship for these two races, they become a second choice option if you're looking for a very niche role or if you can't afford better.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:10:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph

1. Guerrilla warfare isn't about modules or ships and is NOT the same thing as "cloak warfare". You can do guerrilla warfare with any sub-capital class in EVE. It's about tactics and reaction time.


And cloaks effect reaction times. Couple this with the ability to use cov cynos et al and you have a strong contender for enabling or supporting guerrilla tactics - not the only part of that particular puzzle but certainly an important part.

Quote:


The only reason covert ops ships are currently used as support is because they don't have the tank or damage potential to compose an entire fleet. T3 will have this.




With 4 High Slots (one of those used for the cloak) I'm confused as to where you think this 'damage potential' is coming from vs an equivalent fleet on non-cloaked ships.

Quote:


2. I said "mostly or completely redundant". Falcon and Rapier will still be useful for their web and ecm roles, which no other ships do better. Tanking and damage is not part of the value proposition.

There is little reason in flying a Pilgrim and Arazu if you can use another ship with a strong tank and more damage?


Again, I dont see where the damage is coming from. The pilgrim get a % bonus to drone damage and TD use. The T3 'covert' ship gets a very mediocre damage bonus to a low high slot set up, and no EW bonus at all - meaning it has to cover 100% of its tank traditionaly.

If anything fitting a covert subsystem is a sure fire way to relegate the T3 ship to a niche role - not the other way around.

C.

C.

EvilSpork
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.26 22:39:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem.


i really really liked the tracking bonus subsystem.. but we *need* a khanid subsystem so i guess i can let that one go.. not happy its going but i really want khanid..
Originally by: CCP Nozh

Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints.


Don't limit it to JUST heavy assault missiles! give the bonus to heavy missiles too!!!!

Originally by: CCP Nozh

4th Offensive subsystem:
(Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus)


ok seriously. NO! NO! NO!
what are you guys thinking!? look at the maller and prophecy.. and even the punisher. they are ALL better off using autocannons over lasers. ccp, your balancing team cant be this naive.. NO! BAD CPP! BAD!



rant:
the root of this problem REALLY needs to be addressed and just remove the laser cap bonuses and lower laser cap use...
it would be GREAT to have an actual second bonus on most amarr ships...

(tbh fix laser cap use and give us a bonus to shininess of amarr golden hulls and it would still be less insulting to need to waste a bonus just to use our guns. at least the shiny wouldnt be wasted...Evil or Very Mad)

Shadow Devourer
Posted - 2009.03.27 02:10:00 - [171]
 

Quote:
Don't limit it to JUST heavy assault missiles! give the bonus to heavy missiles too!!!!



I'd agree with that only if the Tengu's bonus got from kinetic to all damage types. But really it's fine as it is, Caldari get more limited damage types and better range selection, Amarr get up close rainbow damage. Different flavors of missile boats.

Lijhal
Posted - 2009.03.27 12:02:00 - [172]
 

How about:

4th Offensive subsystem:

able to use Offensive Warfare Links (of course, you have to design them first) & 4 hardpoints ; no dmg bonus

4th Engineering Subsystem:

regenerative heat system : self repairing subsystem for damaged modules based on heat dmg ; -2,5% cap recharge p.l. ; +0/2/1 or 0/1/2 slot layout

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

able to use some sort of FTL drive, able to jump from one sun to another within 2ly ; needs a cooldown and regenrate it powers from a star itself (need to be close to the star); static bonus: -25% rof & -25% velocity & -25% sensor strength

throwing some crazy ideas into the room ... comon :)

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:31:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Shadow Devourer
Quote:
Don't limit it to JUST heavy assault missiles! give the bonus to heavy missiles too!!!!



I'd agree with that only if the Tengu's bonus got from kinetic to all damage types. But really it's fine as it is, Caldari get more limited damage types and better range selection, Amarr get up close rainbow damage. Different flavors of missile boats.


You'd have different flavor in missile boats if that bonus was replaced by a 5% EM damage, and it would make it a viable choice for pve against blood raiders/sanchas/drones. And the Tengu would still be a bit better due to a stronger RoF bonus.

Heavy assault missiles are almost never used for pvp, and even less for pve. Thus this bonus make the whole subsystem not worth fitting.




Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
Bloody Amarr's
Posted - 2009.03.27 17:45:00 - [174]
 

Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array vs Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature

dont you think soemthing is wrong? Proteus one more bonus and everyone know that blasters get much more base damage. And 2x drone bandwth.

Katy Karkinoff
Minmatar
Psycho Chicks
Posted - 2009.03.27 20:41:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array vs Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature

dont you think soemthing is wrong? Proteus one more bonus and everyone know that blasters get much more base damage. And 2x drone bandwth.


yes but range of blasters sucks and projectiles have some semblance of range to use.

Arous Drephius
Posted - 2009.03.27 21:46:00 - [176]
 

Covops cloak and bubble-proof bonuses = win.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.03.27 22:36:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Tarminic

Scan Probe Bonuses:
I very much like this, but I don't like the tractor range/speed bonus. Why, you ask? Because it's completely useless for anything other than wrecks! I would prefer to see something along these lines:
All hulls: Bonus to tractor beams
Gallente: 5% Archeology bonus
Caldari: 5% Hacking Bonus
Minmatar: 5% Salvage bonus
Amarr: Not sure here, maybe an additional tractor beam bonus?
Otherwise, very good stuff. Very Happy


We did look at mini-profession bonuses but decided to scrap them. We didn't really have enough of them and we believe they belong on a smaller/cheaper vessel.




You're forgetting gas cloud harvesting....
Gallente - Gas Harvesting
Caldari - Hacking
Amarr - Archaeology
Minmatar - Salvage


el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.03.27 23:22:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.

Call me a carebear, but this is the only thing - if it goes live - that will get me into a T3 ship ... and the week after I do, CCP will nerf it. Very Happy

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.28 08:43:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: el caido
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.

Call me a carebear, but this is the only thing - if it goes live - that will get me into a T3 ship ... and the week after I do, CCP will nerf it. Very Happy

Covert ops cloak and immunity from bubbles... Even with greater align time that's damn uncatchable...

Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2009.03.28 11:39:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.


If you are taking this away, can the other offensive subsystem be changed from optimal range to tracking? Lasers suffer from poor tracking at close range, and a tracking bonus would really make a difference... Optimal bonus won't change that much to be honest...

Thanks


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