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CCP Nozh


C C P
Posted - 2009.03.24 19:11:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Tarminic

Scan Probe Bonuses:
I very much like this, but I don't like the tractor range/speed bonus. Why, you ask? Because it's completely useless for anything other than wrecks! I would prefer to see something along these lines:
All hulls: Bonus to tractor beams
Gallente: 5% Archeology bonus
Caldari: 5% Hacking Bonus
Minmatar: 5% Salvage bonus
Amarr: Not sure here, maybe an additional tractor beam bonus?
Otherwise, very good stuff. Very Happy


We did look at mini-profession bonuses but decided to scrap them. We didn't really have enough of them and we believe they belong on a smaller/cheaper vessel.

Originally by: IceAero
I still miss my remote-repping range bonus idea


This came up. In the end we just came to the conclusion that un-bonused remote armor repairers / shield transporters range was just too short and not really worth it. We could remedy this by boosting the module base stats, but we'd have to decrease Logistic ship bonuses etc. its been added to my todo list.

I must say though the remote repairing tech 3 setups I've been experimenting with are pretty damn good, despite their lack of range. 2 guys working together can easily reach a 700 dps absorption rate tank, cap sustainable.


Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.03.24 19:25:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Tarminic on 24/03/2009 19:26:34
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Tarminic

Scan Probe Bonuses:
I very much like this, but I don't like the tractor range/speed bonus. Why, you ask? Because it's completely useless for anything other than wrecks! I would prefer to see something along these lines:
All hulls: Bonus to tractor beams
Gallente: 5% Archeology bonus
Caldari: 5% Hacking Bonus
Minmatar: 5% Salvage bonus
Amarr: Not sure here, maybe an additional tractor beam bonus?
Otherwise, very good stuff. Very Happy


We did look at mini-profession bonuses but decided to scrap them. We didn't really have enough of them and we believe they belong on a smaller/cheaper vessel.

Fair enough. I would argue, however, that a tractor beam bonus is no more productive than a mini-profession bonus only because you can only use tractor beams on wrecks. Not useless, mind you, but it's niche feels too small compared to scanner bonuses, which is useful both in combat and exploration.

Instead of a tractor beam bonus of any kind, how about additional high or mid slots to give these ships the flexibility to fit exploration-related modules and tractors/salvagers? Just food for thought, thanks for the response. Smile

EDIT: Can you comment on using a heat effectiveness bonus instead of a heat duration bonus?

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.24 19:43:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: IceAero on 24/03/2009 19:54:12
Originally by: CCP Nozh


This came up. In the end we just came to the conclusion that un-bonused remote armor repairers / shield transporters range was just too short and not really worth it. We could remedy this by boosting the module base stats, but we'd have to decrease Logistic ship bonuses etc. its been added to my todo list.

I must say though the remote repairing tech 3 setups I've been experimenting with are pretty damn good, despite their lack of range. 2 guys working together can easily reach a 700 dps absorption rate tank, cap sustainable.




WOW! Now that made my day...

4.8km/6.0km/8.4km is agreeably very small considering normal combat ranges.

8km is fine with battleships, but cruisers and frigates need to move around to get in range and keep their transverse velocity up. Keeping your buddies within 15-20km isn't hard if you know you need to do it, but 6km is nuts.

Any hint as to your ideas for new ranges? Maybe give them a uniform range? (16km for T2 and 14km for T1 comes to mind...)

This would actually get people using remote reps in normal combat outside of a blob of BSs! Plus, Logistics ships would still be useful.


Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:08:00 - [124]
 

ONe of my main criticisms has been in order for the t3 economy to work, the ships and there subsystems would need to provide capabilities and bonuses that where not already accessible through t1 - t2. These subsystems seem to come some way into remedying that.

I'd need to have a look at the slot layouts to make a firm decision however my only point so far is that some of the existing subsystems need work...


Proteus Propulsion Subsystem Skill Bonus:
15% bonus to warp speed per level
15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp per level

5% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level.


Loki Defensive Subsystem Skill Bonus:
5% reduction in signature radius per level.

Loki Offensive Subsystem Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret rate of fire per level
7.5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level


Tengu Propulsion Subsystem Skill Bonus:
15% bonus to warp speed per level
15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp per level


Legion Propulsion Subsystem Skill Bonus:
5% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level.



Unless your willing on bumping up the signature radius reduction amount to something resembling that of which tackler inceterceptors get then on there own, especially as a defensive module, there not going to be very appealing and narrow the options down during assembly. I'd recommend even more additional slots, increased cargo capacity, mass reduction or increased drone bay as compensation although i'd much rather a re-think on 5% signature reduction bonuses as the defensive subsystem (in a land which tengu's have 36k shields)

The warp speed bonuses are cute, however, unless mechanics can be changed so that max warp speed also effects acceleration then the main idea is rather ineffectual. The cap reduction can be achieved by reducing the ships mass. Rather this subsystem was binned, failing that, +cargo bay or -mass or +2 lows.

And common, split weapons systems? Yes, you can have 7 weapons fitted onto your ship, but the dps is more or less the same as heavy damage fit stratcruisers (because 3 damage mods = 6 split weapon damage mods). I would rather see a base 4/4 turrets/launcher set and the drone bay increased to 50/100.

I would like to see a 5th engineering subsystem with logistics -capacitor and +range bonuses with -cap recharge, speed or agility and as far as left field, subsystems that made me immune to negative environmental effects... Any news on how the 5th subsystems are going?

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2009.03.24 20:49:00 - [125]
 

Do like these bonuses.

Very much loving the bubble-proof and covops cloak bonuses. Probing bonus - meh, its got some awesome potential but also a bit carebear. I will probably use it some of the time, which is the point.

The heat bonus ought to be more interesting eg. +heat effect.

Except the gang warfare links - Loki isnt THAT much more mobile than a Sleipnir or Claymore that we really needed a "mobile link" ship that much. Maybe I'm just selfish because I dont have any real leadership skills? Just think its a bit boring.

The bubble-proof bonus is in danger of being overpowered vs the other propulsion subs, purely because they dont have that great bonuses (certainly on the proteus). It reamins to be seen how good they are vs a slot. Certainly I think in 0.0 I'd rather lose the slot.


This is going to sound a bit cheeky but where are 5th subsystem? I mean, its only taken a couple of weeks to come up with no. 4, and presumably there's a reasonable amount of art assets for 4 and 5 already as they were originally planned. I think we should be looking at 4 and 5 subsystems in Apoc 1.1, because then awesome would rain down.



IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.24 21:06:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: IceAero on 24/03/2009 21:09:21
Originally by: El Yatta

The heat bonus ought to be more interesting eg. +heat effect.



Now that would be awesome :)

Originally by: El Yatta

Except the gang warfare links - Loki isnt THAT much more mobile than a Sleipnir or Claymore that we really needed a "mobile link" ship that much. Maybe I'm just selfish because I dont have any real leadership skills? Just think its a bit boring.



I'm with you on this one, but he said the bonus for the warefare link mod would be higher, high than a command ship I assume, so that would make things a little interesting.

I think if the link affected your own ship's stats it would definitely give people a reason to use it. It gives a LOT more variety to T3 ships also!

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.24 21:51:00 - [127]
 

Ok, looks good overall, but a few comments:


1) Covert ops cloak. With only one damage bonus, and greatly reduced ewar ability, is this really going to be worth it on a ship that's so absurdly expensive? Removing a weapon slot is fair, but with only one damage bonus you're probably going to be out-gunned by the awesome laser/blaster gank Pilgrim.

And why is this an offensive system, anyway? How about instead, make it an electronics subsystem and simply have it give -1 turret/launcher slot?


2) Gang mods. Will depend on the final stats, IMO, but like the covops cloak, this would make more sense as an electronics subsystem rather than defensive. The big concern is of course fitting (and it will need some, to fit gang mods on any plausible setup): hopefully the gang mod is given in the form of +1 high slot, -100% gang mod fitting requirements, not +200 grid/+50 CPU that will be abused on setups with no gang mods at all.

3) Pirate subsystems (see my first post in this thread). Why not let the pirates get in on the T3 fun? Why not move the covops cloak to electronics, and give me a Sanshas offensive system for my Tengu? I will love you forever if you do this!

Lumy
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.24 22:33:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Lumy on 24/03/2009 22:38:44
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey!

Sorry for not being very vocal on the forums, I have been reading them, but haven't really given myself time to post. Here's a small update.

Note: bonuses might change around slightly but you should get the general idea and goal of each subsystem.

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.

4th Offensive subsystem:

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.

4th Defensive Subsystem:

Warfare link bonuses. Only one warfare link at a time, but with a higher bonuses.

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.

4th Engineering Subsystem:

Will give you another bonus to heat damage reduction, allowing you to overheat your modules for an extended period of time. I'm going to be doing some extensive heat time testing to see if we need to adjust these bonuses.

4th Electronic Subsystem:

A simple CPU bonus to scan probe launchers, allowing you to fit an expanded probe launcher with ease, along with a nice 10% increase to scan strength of probes, making it an very good scanning platform. In addition to this they'll give a tractor beam range / velocity bonus.

These are in authoring right now, so you can expect to see them on Singularity very soon. I'm working on getting the subsystems re-seeded, should happen very soon.

Also. The price, don't panic quite yet, we're still confident the price will go down.

Comments!




1. All bonuses are... too uniform. There is no distinction between races. It's like you're not even trying anymore.
2. Covops cloaking offensive subsystem: I guess it's the only way to balance it. I'm just wondering why would anyone use this over recon. Maybe some cloaking scanning warfare link wimpy ... thing.
3. Defensive subsystem: Interesting idea. Worth looking into it.
4. Propulsion subsystem: You can do that invulnerability thing? By the way, why not just give it low base agility and agility bonus (oh wai... somene could notice it's the same as other one).
5. Engineering subsystem: Meh, cheap one.
6. Electronics subsystem: That's much better.
7. Mine ideas at 1st page are so much better anyway Twisted Evil:
- Offensive subsystems have each one different racial flavor.
- Combination of propulsion and electronic subsystems gives you decent DPS platform for black ops gang.
- Engineering subsystems are giving you decent bonus for active/remote tankers. At least some racial flavor.
- Defensive subsystem solves the "too short" problems for cruiser RR gangs. At least some racial flavor.

... let's hope some of them get used for 5th batch.


Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.24 22:34:00 - [129]
 

I want to speak up in defense of the tractor bonus. I want my T3 salvage boat, and there hasn't been a lot of hope before now. Finally there's a way to improve tractor performance on something smaller and more agile than a battleship.

(For a salvager, the problem is outrunning the 500 m/s tractor speed and losing your loot can 20 klicks back, which is enormously annoying. Putting tractor bonuses on big fat slow Marauders and Orcas only(!) has been a horrible taunt.)

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.24 23:01:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.



This better make the ship black!

Lijhal
Posted - 2009.03.24 23:04:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Lijhal on 24/03/2009 23:05:36
Originally by: CCP Nozh


4th Offensive subsystem:

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.



FAIL

Originally by: CCP Nozh

4th Defensive Subsystem:

Warfare link bonuses. Only one warfare link at a time, but with a higher bonuses.



a o.k. subsystem ... i bet you'll get only bonuses if you are in a fleet ? if so, this subsystem will be the last i fit on my loki...

Originally by: CCP Nozh

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.



you're going to tell me i can build a t3 ship, able to warp cloaked and unstopable from bubbles with 110k effective hp ? comon, this cant be true ...

Originally by: CCP Nozh

4th Engineering Subsystem:

Will give you another bonus to heat damage reduction, allowing you to overheat your modules for an extended period of time. I'm going to be doing some extensive heat time testing to see if we need to adjust these bonuses.



a o.k bonus

Originally by: CCP Nozh

4th Electronic Subsystem:

A simple CPU bonus to scan probe launchers, allowing you to fit an expanded probe launcher with ease, along with a nice 10% increase to scan strength of probes, making it an very good scanning platform. In addition to this they'll give a tractor beam range / velocity bonus.



another o.k. bonuses ... people screamed to long for a t3 salvager

Conclusion:
Disappoint about t3 ships ... i thought i could build a caldari-missile-armor boat with apochrypha ... seems i dreamed to much :(

QUOTE from FanFest 2008
"thess are not only fency graphics!
this is total customizibilty in fitting which generates ships with different amount of slot, stats, hitpoints etc"

Sorry, but i dont see it ... good luck

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.24 23:16:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh


We did look at mini-profession bonuses but decided to scrap them. We didn't really have enough of them and we believe they belong on a smaller/cheaper vessel.




True, but there are other options for 'industrial' sub-systems:

- Internal refinery
- Internal production facilities
- Internal lab facilities
- In space fitting facilities (like the Orca)
- Expanded Cargo capacity
- Bonuses to Mining, mining drones, mining gang links
- Bonuses to gas harvesting, archeology, hacking, salvaging

I wouldn't argue that all these could be fitted to one hull type - instead enabling a group of players working in concert to mimic the industrial / production characteristics of a POS or station.

Personally I think such subsystems would have beneficial aspects to populating .0 space without the need for a POS (and the inherent "POSBorefare"), would provide 'small scale objectives' whilst keeping the overall scale of operations relatively small (these are only cruiser sized vessels after all).

C.


Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 00:01:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Cailais
- Internal refinery
- Internal production facilities
- Internal lab facilities

If you mean something like that idiocy of a Lolqual, thanks, no need.

Quote:
- In space fitting facilities (like the Orca)

Could be useful, even without corp hangar. Or especially without corp hangar...

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.03.25 00:30:00 - [134]
 

The covert ops bonus is a huge mistake. Mechanics like this should not be proliferated so recklessly. Not just because you've made Force Recons mostly or completely redundant, but because Force Recons were already pushing the upper limit of how combat-capable such ships should be. This is power creep in its ugliest form, and you're caving to player demands without providing a justifiable reason for why we need even more cloak warfare. Especially in a game that has no counter and is trying to move away from local intel.

The only reason you people would consider doing this is because you're insecure about the relatively disinterested attitude players have towards T3 and its adoption. Why does it have to sound awesome and marketable? It's not your job to sell anything, these aren't used cars.

Next, the scanning cpu bonus is just ridiculous because I don't agree with the fitting requirements of the Integrated launcher to begin with. If dedicated scanning ships get strength bonus to make them better at it, then fine. But there is no reason the fittings shouldn't be 60tf instead of 220tf. Deadspace is the new standard now that belts are nearly phased out, and making a safespot has never required special hardware.

So many ships in EVE have utility highs that can only be used for cap warfare. If you're in a small gang or fighting solo, you don't have the luxury of covert ops alts. I'd rather have the opportunity to spend more time scanning someone than sit around powerless.

Lastly, the bubble immunity bonus shows you have some room for creativity still, but it's fairly ridiculous because a) bubbles need an overhaul and b) need to be available in all areas of space/combat before you go ahead and design entire ships around evasion. People mostly fear bubbles for what it does to your chances of escaping a podding, for which this bonus does nothing. And simply flying T3 means you lose skillpoints on top of your usual implants. Therefore a 'risk minimization' bonus is pretty ironic and hypocritical.

Unrelated to 4th tier subsystems, I make the following requests:

- no skillpoint loss penalty if destruction takes place in WH space
- full immunity from positive and negative environmental effects in WH space

That should get interest going.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.25 01:54:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
The covert ops bonus is a huge mistake. Mechanics like this should not be proliferated so recklessly. Not just because you've made Force Recons mostly or completely redundant, but because Force Recons were already pushing the upper limit of how combat-capable such ships should be. This is power creep in its ugliest form, and you're caving to player demands without providing a justifiable reason for why we need even more cloak warfare. Especially in a game that has no counter and is trying to move away from local intel.



Cloaked warfare is and remains a valid tactic, in its simplest form it typifies guerilla style / small gang combat (and as such is the flip side of blob warfare) - and is well suited for the Crusier class of ships. As its selected on an Offensive subsystem you sacrifice damage for stealth which is only proper in my view.

Cloaks are, in essence, their own counter as whilst cloaked you cant inflict any actual damage only a psychological impact.

I dont believe the Force Recons are made redundant with this subsystem, they have EW capabilities which the T3 vessel will not have unless specifically fitted for such (reducing its damage capabilities even further - probably to a point where they are notably less effective than a Force Recon. Indeed by your argument you could suggest that all T2 ships are made redundant by T3, just on the basis that they can mimic T2 capabilities (i.e damage output, tank etc).

C.



Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.25 01:58:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Cailais
- Internal refinery
- Internal production facilities
- Internal lab facilities

If you mean something like that idiocy of a Lolqual, thanks, no need.

Quote:
- In space fitting facilities (like the Orca)

Could be useful, even without corp hangar. Or especially without corp hangar...


Id suggest elements of the Rorqual / Orca could be mimic'd - perhaps only achieving the capabilities of these ships as a group rather than an individual ship. Also to my knowledge the neither the Rorqual or the Orca can actually produce items in space.

Of course Corps might combine the capabilities of T3 Industry variants with the Orca/Rorq (and other indy ships such as blockade runners, exhumers etc) enabling nomadic or roaming industry.

C.



Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:50:00 - [137]
 

Finally a reason to fly T3. Thanks.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.25 06:08:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 25/03/2009 06:10:40
1) cov ops cloak - NO!!! particularly with combat probes in mind. the prowler should remain the only other ship besides recons and cov frigs that can probe and warp to the result cloaked (yes... epic lulz)
2) warfare links... - won't be used, especially not with this little CPU on all of the t3 hulls to "extend" it with command processors. but BCs could use that strength bonus, hold on to that thought.
3) immunity to graviton stuff - nohohoho, not with the current sniping capabilities
4) even less heat - *shrug* if you're already out of ideas and cba to review the heat-buildup first...
5) combat prober - i wouldn't mind the fitting reduction - but no strength bonus (and certainly not 10%/lvl aka par with t2). repair combat probing while it's still warm instead of attaching excuses to it.

but to be constructive aswell; stuff we dont have yet:
- 10%/lvl extra calibration (get your probe bonus by being able to fit 3 gravity rigs, or fit funky t2 weapon rigs if you have the cash -.-) probably an engineering sub
- some joy with smartbombs, 'cause drones are slowly getting out of hand - offensive sub, i guess -.-
- bonus to remote eccm, remote sensor, tracking links, and where's the anti-web those strain NPCdrones used to have :D
- drug bonus x_X

Captain Campion
Viziam
Posted - 2009.03.25 07:20:00 - [139]
 

Warp Disruption immunity is overpowered. Invulnerable t3 ships?

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.03.25 08:42:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/03/2009 08:47:27
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey!

Sorry for not being very vocal on the forums, I have been reading them, but haven't really given myself time to post. Here's a small update.

Note: bonuses might change around slightly but you should get the general idea and goal of each subsystem.

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.



Heavy assualt missiles aren't used much. The additionnal damage over heavy missiles doesn't compensate for the vastly decreased range, and they do less damage than heavies against small targets. So a bonus only to heavy assault isn't only half a bonus, but the least interesting half, as well.

Too bad, a bonus to EM missile damage instead would have make the Legion an interesting alternative to the Tengu for npcing or pvp. With that bonus it's useless.

Quote:

4th Offensive subsystem:

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.



I think there's enough cloaking crap in the game already. What happened to the "you have to take risks if you want a fight" philosophy? A bonus to decloack all enemies who get too close would be far better...


Quote:

4th Defensive Subsystem:

Warfare link bonuses. Only one warfare link at a time, but with a higher bonuses.



Only one command mod, but I suspect you could add command links to fit more of them. Won't that make fleet command ships obsolete?


Quote:

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.



Apocrypha: The return of Warp Core Stabs ships...


Quote:

4th Engineering Subsystem:

Will give you another bonus to heat damage reduction, allowing you to overheat your modules for an extended period of time. I'm going to be doing some extensive heat time testing to see if we need to adjust these bonuses.



Unless it's a really big bonus, meh. You'd better reduce the overloading bonus of MWDs if that means insane time overloaded (75% with skills+cruiser bonus+subsystem bonus?)


Quote:

4th Electronic Subsystem:

A simple CPU bonus to scan probe launchers, allowing you to fit an expanded probe launcher with ease, along with a nice 10% increase to scan strength of probes, making it an very good scanning platform. In addition to this they'll give a tractor beam range / velocity bonus.



sound ok.


Quote:

Also. The price, don't panic quite yet, we're still confident the price will go down.

Comments!



Without a lot of tweaking on your part (and the sooner, the better, don't wait until everyone wrote off WH exploration as only a gadget), that's not going to happen. Sure, the price for cruisers and subsystems will go down for lack of interest at insane prices. It will go down to the point where production make you lose isks, which will kill the price for components, which in turn will reduce WH profitability to the point it's not worth doing...

McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.25 09:23:00 - [141]
 

Yeah, like that guy said before, t3 needs to bring new capabilities, bonus and tactics to pvp in order for ppl actually want to fly them.

Just throwing ideas here

- De-cloaking capability, maybe a smartbomb like AOE decloaker

- Profession related bonus (archeology, hacking etc)

- Remote e-war boosting

- E-war immunity of each "rival" race, Ammar immune to webs, Minnie immune to Neuts, Caldari immune to damps and god for bid Gallente immune to ECM. Well, Gallente could be a bit OP in that case, maybe increase scan strength

- Super-stealth bonus, not showing/delayed in local for t3 pilots? hehehe

- Bubble immunity seems nice though

- heat damage reduction AND increase efficiency

- Was going to suggest torps, but you guys already did that with Stealth Bombers

- Increased on-board scanner range?

*and pls, no more cloaks

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.03.25 10:03:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
4th Offensive subsystem:

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.


Let me get this straight, you want to give the T3 ships, with all the firepower, gank, tank, resistances and slots a Covert Ops cloak, but you're not thinking about giving it to the Stealth Bomber first, wtf?
Give it to the ship classes who are supposed to be stealthy before giving it to the Feature of the Month.

Darth Felin
Posted - 2009.03.25 10:44:00 - [143]
 

I like new subsystems, but one thing distract me very much. Cov-Op cloak is OK, even buble immunity is OK imho but Cov-Op cloak plus buble immunity is NOT ok. Buble is the only way to try to stop stealth ship. Uncatchable ships is bad.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.03.25 11:06:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Amy Wang on 25/03/2009 11:09:01
finally some ideas that are really "different" nice

covert cloaking bubble immune ships doesnt sound overpowered to me, it will have no dps to speak of with its 4 single bonused turrets and prolly no/very small drone bay, not to mention the total slot count will end up considerably less then recons

also it is not uncatchable really, with the nerfed agility you have a chance to decloak and point it if you are competent enough
question is how severe the bubble immunity agility nerf will be, if it is really harsh then I see that subsystem ONLY being useful in conjunction with the covert subsystem

question: is the covert subsystem also enabling the ship to use covert jump bridges?

Casey Windstrom
Nanobots Industries
Posted - 2009.03.25 11:29:00 - [145]
 

I would love to see one of the new T3 subsystems make the T3 ships able to be a scanship. Having a tougher, more reliable scanship that could actually do something other than just scan would be very, very nice. I'm not talking a scan ship that is UBER... I just want something where I can go into the combat site WITH my corp mates and fight along side of them, rather than sitting on the sidelines watching the action while I sit... and scan... and scan... and scan. They value the hell out of me, but I feel left out in the cold.

One of the origional writeups for Apocrypha mentioned having new 'science' ships. This seems to have been dropped sadly. Can us science types get some love of some sort? I primarily play 1 toon, and it's a researcher/manufactuerer with some recon skills and high scan skills. I'd like to be useful in something other than just an Arazu or Helios, thanks!

Casey

Jettisoned Can
Jenova's Witnesses
Posted - 2009.03.25 11:42:00 - [146]
 

Adding Khanid system - good

Cov ops offensive - bad
There are only 3 systems that provide a purpose to the ship. Electronics can provide EW, defensive can provide logistics, offensive can provide offense. (or EW in the Tengu's case) By putting cloaking on the offensive systems, you limit anyone who wants to use it to a sub-par force recon. You lose the ability to have decent offense because you can't choose which offensive systems you have. You can't do logistics since there is no logistics range bonus, thus keeping you within decloaking range of the ship you want to rep. So the only ship role you are left with is the electronics subsystem's EW system.
Consider moving the cloaking subsystem to ANY other system. Putting it on the offensive system pigeon-holes it too much.

Warfare link defensive - ok, not great
Won't survive long if people figure out you are bonusing your fleet and don't have a defensive bonus.
Decent idea, but not much purpose. Consider moving it to electronics or engineering or removing it.

Bubble immunity propulsion - bad, bad, bad, absolutely terrible idea
When paired with a cov-ops cloak it is an immune transport. The only way for this to be balanced would require it to not be able to be paired with a cloaking bonus.
Please remove it, or at the very least, put it on the same subsystem type as the cloaking bonus so that they cannot be paired.

Heat engineering - good
Somewhat original bonus on a system that makes sense.

Probe/tractor electronics - bland
Strange combination, but I suppose it's fine. There are so many other options for electronics systems that it seems like a waste. Would it at least add a high so that you don't have to sacrifice a weapon to fit the probe launcher or tractor beam? (obviously you'd still have to sacrifice a weapon if you wanted both)

Overall - bad
You're homogenizing the races again. All races are getting almost the exact same thing on every one of these new subsystems. There is no racial flair.

Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 11:55:00 - [147]
 

2All people complaining about gangmod section being useless - you don't use them anyway Laughing Good to see GAMs getting introduced.

Vrikshaka
Yawn Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:05:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Here's a small update.


Win.

Azuse
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:10:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Azuse on 25/03/2009 13:11:12
"Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected"

Firstly, don't get me wrong, i would love something like this. Problem, eve is always about the element of risk, taking longer to warp doesn't matter if you can't be stopped but more over, this breaks every single value & mechanic the game is built upon. It removes all risk, makes itself the only option for travelling, practically becomes the i win button.

Do you remember what it used to be like when every vaga had stabs with no drawback, what do you think will happen with these ships if you suddenly give them a stab with no counter, do you think any slot/agility drawback will be heeded or imply ignored when a pilot knows he can't be stopped? Give another ss the ability to pin these ships (reducing the risk but increasing it against other t3) or something YARRRR!!

If the past year have taught ccp anything it's putting something in game without a counter break eve, causes months of crap ont he forums and ultimately requires addition development time to right the problem created by not putting enough time in in the first place.

Edit: Removing non-consensual pvp and piracy (isn't that ment to be a viable profession?) in a single module has got to be a new low, worse than caracals warping faster tan an inty can lock. Predictability is the bane of this game. Each change ccp has made recently (scrams/web/gate sizes etc.) Has been to the effect of increasing the un-predictability of eve, for the better. Not knowing the outcome of a fight make the game more fun, but this. This takes eve back to the predictable place it's seem and tried to escape so many times before.

Vecila
Live and Learn Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.25 13:19:00 - [150]
 

Just how many ships and modules does scram immunity nullify, i.e. make totaly worthless? How many development hours were put into creating all those ships, only to have someone come along now and say sorry, you wasted your time?

Cloak, invincible to tackle, each ss tank 40m3 for easy transport means no one will go traveling without one in their cargo ( i know i wouldn't). Incidentally, how does this effect concord?


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