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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.03.20 11:01:00 - [91]
 

I would love for a subsystem to have high eWar resistance, or even immunity akin to super-capitals.

Drawback:
Reduced EHP and DPS - make the T3 into a Recon hunter basically while allowing freedom of movement (unless the bad guys have a HIC).
Relatively low targeting range.

Would be used with:
MWD sig reduction (will normally go for AB speed, sig is God)
Armour/Shield Resistances.
Anything that gives midslots - for counter-eWar/defense.

Low DPS and EHP would make it vulnerable but T3 base stats prevent it from insta-popping. It would not pose any significant threat in itself.
Lower targeting range should prevent it from becoming a kiting speed freak.

011000010110110001110100
Posted - 2009.03.20 17:17:00 - [92]
 

COVERT OPS CLOAK SUBSYSTEM

that is all.

011000010110110001110100
Posted - 2009.03.20 17:18:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: 011000010110110001110100 on 20/03/2009 17:18:05

Happy Joymaker
Conflagration.
Posted - 2009.03.20 21:31:00 - [94]
 

2 suggestions, not going to go into specifics as balancing would be an issue

Cloaking, kinda like a stealth bomber / command ship combo. No bombs, no warping cloaked, but able to move around reasonably while cloaked and minimal targeting delay after decloaking.

Gas / mining specialist kit. The amount of gas mining needed to actually put these ships together, well, it would be an obvious benefit to those who are doing the mining. Large cargo hold (or perhaps a separate hold that can only hold gas, hint hint), 4-5 high slots that are gas miner / utility only, with another 2-3 that can be used for guns, or perhaps a decent drone bay and drone damage bonus (to both defend themselves from sleepers as well as other players). Big CPU reduction to gas miners.

Ricky Rio
Posted - 2009.03.20 23:56:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Ricky Rio on 20/03/2009 23:56:52
for the Offensive subsystem how about a "flak battery" weapon control system.

the slot layout would give it 6 missile/turret slots depending on race and then the following bonuses.

Role bonus: able to fit 2 small sized weapons per high power slot (or +100% to small turret damage)
(for turret ships)
5% bonus to tracking of small turrets per level
5% bonus to falloff of small turrets per level
(for missile ships)
5% bonus to small missile velocity per level
5% bonus to small missile rate of fire per level

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2009.03.21 04:53:00 - [96]
 

don't make a 4th until you can get the first batch right Evil or Very Mad

McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.21 07:58:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: McDaddy Pimp on 21/03/2009 08:00:31
How about an indy/exploration subsystem, specialized for w-space

Offensive
Bonus: salvaging, gas harvesting and maybe tractor beam
Drawbacks : no turret/missile hardpoint

Defensive
Bonus: Increased tank, drone bandwidth
Drawback: Speed penalty

Electronics
Bonus: Increased CPU
Bonus: Codebreaker and Analyzer, Gallante/Caldari Analyzer, Ammar/Minnie Codebreaker maybe
Drawback : Reduced Scan Resolution and Scan Strength

Engineering
Bonus: More cargo capacity
Drawback: Less powergrid

Propulsion
Bonus: Increased agility (idk lol)
Drawback: Decreased speed

The idea here is a ship for ninja salvaging/mining/exploring in w-space, a ship agile enough to run from (slow) hostiles, good enough tank to hold on until the cargo hold is filled with WH gases, and make exploration more fun.

With these 4th subsystem a t3 ship can be fitted for a full fledged indy ship or a semi indy, a mix of combat and "indy" subsystems (for gank ops of coz), like a cruiser size Marauder or a Battlebadger Razz. Now, a small gang of 3-4 cruiser maybe can actually accomplish something in w-space

Mining and probing already have they existing ships, and so are cloakers






Viggen
Posted - 2009.03.21 17:21:00 - [98]
 

Whatever subsystems come out from this, will we be able to test them on sisi? because as it is now we cant even test 66% of the subsystems already available as they have not been seeded for quite some time. ugh

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2009.03.23 07:14:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
don't make a 4th until you can get the first batch right Evil or Very Mad


This hits the nail on the head.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.03.23 11:39:00 - [100]
 

OK.. someone DARED to propose TARGET PAINTING bonus to a T3 ship!!! AAaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Seems most people want cloaking bonuses...


How about you introduce back some more variation on slots? That was the most interesting part of T3 ships before you removed it. Maybe 1 subsystem that INVERTS all the mids and lows :P

Wil give opinion on loki only since its the only one i can fly.

Also give loki defensive a 10% shield boost per level one.
Give a tempest/rupture/hurricane style module back to loki.


Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.23 11:59:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 23/03/2009 12:20:50
NARF

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.23 12:04:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
OK.. someone DARED to propose TARGET PAINTING bonus to a T3 ship!!! AAaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yep, I did. I dared.

everything you know about PvP is wrong, btw.

oh and seriously, NO COVOPS CLOAK

God damn people, the entire point of these ships is that they're supposed to be a customizable alternative to tech 2, not a complete, more-powerful replacement. Stealth-bomber style cloaking with a speed bonus could work, but for the love of god, covops would just be ludicrous. Next you'll be asking for Heavy interdictor-style bubble emitters.

Seriously, go back and read my first contribution to this thread, right there on page 1. THOSE are balanced, considered subsystems that don't do anything massively exotic, but do fit and would work well to allow tech 3 do it's own, militarily useful thing without copying the functionality of existing tech 2 ships. that's what we need, not covops cloaks or crazy cross-racial abilities.


Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.03.23 15:42:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Seishi Maru
OK.. someone DARED to propose TARGET PAINTING bonus to a T3 ship!!! AAaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yep, I did. I dared.

everything you know about PvP is wrong, btw.

oh and seriously, NO COVOPS CLOAK

God damn people, the entire point of these ships is that they're supposed to be a customizable alternative to tech 2, not a complete, more-powerful replacement. Stealth-bomber style cloaking with a speed bonus could work, but for the love of god, covops would just be ludicrous. Next you'll be asking for Heavy interdictor-style bubble emitters.

Seriously, go back and read my first contribution to this thread, right there on page 1. THOSE are balanced, considered subsystems that don't do anything massively exotic, but do fit and would work well to allow tech 3 do it's own, militarily useful thing without copying the functionality of existing tech 2 ships. that's what we need, not covops cloaks or crazy cross-racial abilities.




I know TP are useful but people do not need more than a VIGIL for that. its stupid to waste a T3 ship on that! We have vigil, hyena, Rapier, bellicose, huggin already with TP bonus. And the only one worth using is the vigil!

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.03.24 10:47:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 24/03/2009 10:48:22
A potential path of improvement for Tech 3 ships lies in changing the way each race's electronics warfare abilities are handled, and the fourth subsystems could be a good route to achieve this.

The first step is to make the racial electronics system bonuses weak. For a Minmatar example, one electronics system provides better webbing and painting, one provides speed optimizations (I know, bear with me), and one provides enhanced targeting and remote repair abilities. By default, none of these bonuses would be super strong. The Webbing and Painting bonus for instance, should probably be a mere 3% per level range and effectiveness bonus.

To get the full effect, one would employ the fourth tiers of modules, which convey the full effect of the electronic systems bonuses. A tier 4 Loki propulsion module would increase a 2% per level speed bonus into a 7% per level speed bonus. A fourth tier engineering module could provide the magic 20% per level webbing and painter bonus.

With this way, potentially over-powered designs can be prevented by providing lesser fitting abilities than their other tier counterparts.

The opportunity is here to make the currently lackluster tech 3 subsystems much better than they are now without creating extremely overpowered designs from their electronic warfare bonuses; please take advantage of it. Smile


Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.03.24 15:32:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 24/03/2009 15:38:02
Defensive subsystem: Allows to fit Siege Module !! Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil Come on that is for players with balls of plutonium!

Offensive module: 5 launchers. Torpedo Launchers PG reduction of 90%

Eletronics: Allow to be Bridged by a Black ops (that by itself would be a huuge boost to black ops)

Engineering: Cap boosters efficiency 50% extra.



On propulsion: STOP WITH USELES STUFF like 10% AB per level that is most of times worse than 5% speed!!!! That same STUPID mistake was made moving the implants of MWD bonus to same slot as the speed bonus. The MWD bonus one is ALWAYS worse!!! Do not add anything completely useless like that anymore.

AND CHANGE the AB bonus to 15% per level!

CCP Nozh


C C P
Posted - 2009.03.24 15:52:00 - [106]
 

Hey!

Sorry for not being very vocal on the forums, I have been reading them, but haven't really given myself time to post. Here's a small update.

Note: bonuses might change around slightly but you should get the general idea and goal of each subsystem.

"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.

4th Offensive subsystem:

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.

4th Defensive Subsystem:

Warfare link bonuses. Only one warfare link at a time, but with a higher bonuses.

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.

4th Engineering Subsystem:

Will give you another bonus to heat damage reduction, allowing you to overheat your modules for an extended period of time. I'm going to be doing some extensive heat time testing to see if we need to adjust these bonuses.

4th Electronic Subsystem:

A simple CPU bonus to scan probe launchers, allowing you to fit an expanded probe launcher with ease, along with a nice 10% increase to scan strength of probes, making it an very good scanning platform. In addition to this they'll give a tractor beam range / velocity bonus.

These are in authoring right now, so you can expect to see them on Singularity very soon. I'm working on getting the subsystems re-seeded, should happen very soon.

Also. The price, don't panic quite yet, we're still confident the price will go down.

Comments!



Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.24 16:12:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Comments!

4th Propulsion Subsystem:

Immunity against warp disruption fields. Deployed, launched and/or projected. They won't grant an extra slot like the other propulsion subsystems and will make your ship less agile. The agility drawback can be nullified by training the subsystem skill.


Not sure how a reduced agility penalizes this subsytem - I love the basic idea, but agilty is typically associated with getting aligned and out of gate camps - which with this subsystem you're immune to anyway. Are you applying this to scamblers / warp disruptors or just 'sphere' effects from dictors?

Quote:


4th Electronic Subsystem:

A simple CPU bonus to scan probe launchers, allowing you to fit an expanded probe launcher with ease, along with a nice 10% increase to scan strength of probes, making it an very good scanning platform. In addition to this they'll give a tractor beam range / velocity bonus.




Awesome idea this one, but is the tractor beam the best choice for a bonus? Id rather see a bonus to other profession slots like hacking or archeology here.

The other bonuses look great. As an Amarr pilot I feel a bit disappointed that we get the rather naff bonus to cap use for the cloaking subsystem, Id rather see a single damage bonus and leave the pilot to sort out the cap issues.

C.




CCP Nozh


C C P
Posted - 2009.03.24 16:16:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Cailais

Not sure how a reduced agility penalizes this subsytem - I love the basic idea, but agilty is typically associated with getting aligned and out of gate camps - which with this subsystem you're immune to anyway. Are you applying this to scamblers / warp disruptors or just 'sphere' effects from dictors?



Interdictor Bubbles, Heavy Interdictor Bubbles and Mobile Warp Disruptors...

The agility penalty makes you a bit more vulnerable to targeted warp scramblers or disruptors.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.24 16:36:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Cailais

Not sure how a reduced agility penalizes this subsytem - I love the basic idea, but agilty is typically associated with getting aligned and out of gate camps - which with this subsystem you're immune to anyway. Are you applying this to scamblers / warp disruptors or just 'sphere' effects from dictors?



Interdictor Bubbles, Heavy Interdictor Bubbles and Mobile Warp Disruptors...

The agility penalty makes you a bit more vulnerable to targeted warp scramblers or disruptors.



Ah yes that makes a lot more sense. A nice bonus that could be applicable to a 'hit and run' cruiser, or a blockade running ship.

Some really interesting subsystems here. Subsystem V could be a trickier subject - Ive noticed a few comments so far noting that the T3 ships dont do anything 'new' in pure mechanics terms (e.g HICs brought in the warp disruption field) - maybe this would be an option for Subsystem V.

C.


Incantare
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:01:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Incantare on 24/03/2009 17:07:02


Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey!
"Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser" is being changed into a Khanid subsystem. Now getting a 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire and a 5% bonus heavy assault missile damage with 5 launcher hardpoints. Coupled with the changed "Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier" you'll be able to field 6 launchers, dealing plenty of damage.



Much <3 for that.

Quote:

4th Offensive subsystem
4th Defensive Subsystem
4th Engineering Subsystem



These are awesome choices and beyond what I expected.

I'm not exited about the warp disruption field immunity bonus but I'm sure it'll appeal to some people, likewise the probe/tractor bonus should please those who have been asking for non-combat t3 subsystems.

Overall I'm really liking these. The only idea I'm disapointed not seeing implemented is a subsystem that protects from e-war. Complete immunity or a % reduction on e-war effects would make for a good subsystem. Here's to hoping for the fifth ones.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:10:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Myra2007 on 24/03/2009 17:22:32
Originally by: CCP Nozh

Covert Ops Cloaking Device fitting bonus. Ability to deploy and use a Covert Ops Cynosural Field. They'll have a single damage bonus (Amarr only gets the standard capacity bonus) and 4 turret slots.



Do you people never learn from prior mistakes? Have another look at ships like maller and prophecy and ask yourself why they are so damn crappy. I just don't get it. Can you even be serious? Give us a damage bonus and no cap bonus if its necessary to let one thing go.

Generally speaking with those (ofc probably totally overpowered) subsystems t3 ships might even be fun. However with such unparalleled subsystems you basically make the already existing ones (nearly) obsolete. Good thing that for once the no solopwnmobile rule doesn't make you errm nerf the **** out of it even prior to release - well except for the legion ofc. (sorry to put it bluntly - no offense intended)


edit: We REALLY do not need projectiles on our t3 amarr cruiser. Please reconsider this in the presence of an experienced amarr pilot.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:25:00 - [112]
 

Heavy interdictors, ver. 2.
Everyone will be flying cloaked gankmobile now... And no, price will not justify the sheer OP of the CO cloak on battleship. (In terms of pure tank and firepower, T3 pretty much comparable to them)

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:29:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Heavy interdictors, ver. 2.
Everyone will be flying cloaked gankmobile now... And no, price will not justify the sheer OP of the CO cloak on battleship. (In terms of pure tank and firepower, T3 pretty much comparable to them)


The cov Ops cloak subsystem has a limited number of high slots - and limited bonus (or in Amarrs case no bonus) to weapon damage. So how this subsystem enables a 'gank mobile' is somewhat obscure.

Also there's no heavy interdictor bonus here - its the opposite.

C.


Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:39:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Cailais
The cov Ops cloak subsystem has a limited number of high slots - and limited bonus (or in Amarrs case no bonus) to weapon damage. So how this subsystem enables a 'gank mobile' is somewhat obscure.

Also there's no heavy interdictor bonus here - its the opposite.

Looks you haven't been in lowsec lately... every first pirte are flying heavy interdictor in case of sheer amount of unjustified bonuses.
Cloaked T3 will take the same niche and will be even more powerful.
Absence of weapon damage esily amendable by native resists (less mudules could be used for tank -> more room for damage mods)

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:53:00 - [115]
 

Cloaking subsystem should be Electronics 4 IMO
  • REGULAR cloak, not CovOps, bonused Stealth Bomber alike

  • bonus CPU for probe launcher and scanning strength (could be simple CPU addition or CPU reduction - depends if you want it to have option for pure combat ship or not)

  • Jump Calibration 2, Ability to fit CO beacon

  • Tractor range/velocity bonus (+20%/level of sub may be)

  • 1 high slot bonus would be enough. (if ever need - doubt that, better NOT)

That way, you have
1. Not OP cruiser. Similarly to SB, it's good if used right, but not so much good solo.
2. Leaving choice of fitting to the pilot. Fit full rack of guns +cloak? Spare slots for prober? Limiting highslots layout imposing high restriction for fitting, enough to not afraid of using it as Electronics instead of Offensive sub.

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:00:00 - [116]
 

So with these subsystems I can create a covops cloaking ship that is immune to bubbles? Doesn't that trip any warning alarms?

musgrattio
Convergent
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:29:00 - [117]
 

Agreed, don't nerf amarr so hard!!!!!! Give amarr a 5% dmg bonus, not some crappy cap bonus. We can deal with the cap on our own.

musgrattio
Convergent
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:33:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: musgrattio on 24/03/2009 18:33:39
Also, just scrap the idea of the immunity to bubbles please. All it does is allow players with lots of isk to have unkillable ships. There is no counter for a cov ops cloaking ship that isn't caught by bubbles.

edit: like posted above, make the propulsion bonus the ability to be bridged by black ops.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:45:00 - [119]
 

I really like what you've put here, but there are two basic changes I'd like to see:

Heat Bonuses:
Duration bonuses for heat make heat very boring, in my opinion. Any heat bonuses should be to the effectiveness of overloaded modules (this is coded as one of the wormhole anomaly effects, so I know you guys can do it, hehe), as duration makes heat more boring.

Scan Probe Bonuses:
I very much like this, but I don't like the tractor range/speed bonus. Why, you ask? Because it's completely useless for anything other than wrecks! I would prefer to see something along these lines:
All hulls: Bonus to tractor beams
Gallente: 5% Archeology bonus
Caldari: 5% Hacking Bonus
Minmatar: 5% Salvage bonus
Amarr: Not sure here, maybe an additional tractor beam bonus?

Otherwise, very good stuff. Very Happy

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:50:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: IceAero on 24/03/2009 18:50:58
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey!

4th Defensive Subsystem:

Warfare link bonuses. Only one warfare link at a time, but with a higher bonuses.





I'm all for this, as long as you let the warfare link affect your OWN ship as well as those receiving a booster from you...

Leave's you way too vulnerable otherwise, these aren't fleet command ships with amazing tanks and hp buffers.

EDIT: I still miss my remote-repping range bonus idea Sad


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