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blankseplocked Scanning problem ( probes too week without covert-ops bonus )
 
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Random Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 14:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Random Caldari on 13/03/2009 15:00:18
Was trying to scan out a radar site in low sec last night.

I have astro 5 and the 3 support skills all at level 4
I was using sisters core probes and a sisters launcher fitted to a falcon with 2 scan strength rigs fitted.

No matter how hard I tried and how close I got the probes the best scan result I could get was 97.xx %

I even tried moving individual probes 1 at a time and testing there strength max possible strength 49.xx

So even in this fairly well set up scanning rig I could never get 100% and a warpable signature.

I tried for nearly 2 hours before I finally gave up and went and got the cheetah.

As soon as I was in the co-ops ( 50% scan strength bonus ) I was able to find the site in 5 minutes.

Do we need some balancing here.

I dont think site finding should be exclusivelly for co-ops , or am I wrong ?

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:20:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:22:02
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:20:15
Originally by: Random Caldari
Do we need some balancing here.

I dont think site finding should be exclusivelly for co-ops , or am I wrong ?



Err.... are you seriously stating that a ship dedicated to scanning should not give any decent benefit to scanning? Oooook...

It's not like you can't find radar sites, it's just you can't find the hardest. Besides, if you REALLY do not want to use a covop, train that astrometric triangulation to 5, or get a decent implant and you are golden. What is the problem again?

EDIT: now that I re-read the post again I see you are generalizing your experience. Most radar sites can be found without a covop. The hardest, which is probably one of those you hit, might need a covop. Seems perfectly balanced to me.

maranne marachian
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:20:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: maranne marachian on 13/03/2009 15:21:11
meh its possible just takes time

Random Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:32:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Random Caldari on 13/03/2009 15:33:16
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:22:02
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:20:15
Originally by: Random Caldari
Do we need some balancing here.

I dont think site finding should be exclusivelly for co-ops , or am I wrong ?



Err.... are you seriously stating that a ship dedicated to scanning should not give any decent benefit to scanning? Oooook...

It's not like you can't find radar sites, it's just you can't find the hardest. Besides, if you REALLY do not want to use a covop, train that astrometric triangulation to 5, or get a decent implant and you are golden. What is the problem again?

EDIT: now that I re-read the post again I see you are generalizing your experience. Most radar sites can be found without a covop. The hardest, which is probably one of those you hit, might need a covop. Seems perfectly balanced to me.


It wasnt that great tbh , 4 empty spawn cans / 2 filled , got 8 datacores - 2 dycryptors and some trash

I wasnt complaining about co-ops , I love em.

20% bonus with my rigged falcon ( Impossible to find )
50% bonus with my co-ops - unrigged ( Found in 5 minutes ).



Seems to me the maths which returns scan results leads to a situation where sites become unscannable at certain scan strength.

and please believe me I dont mean difficult to find I mean Impossible.





Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:53:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Random Caldari
Edited by: Random Caldari on 13/03/2009 15:33:16
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:22:02
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 13/03/2009 15:20:15
Originally by: Random Caldari
Do we need some balancing here.

I dont think site finding should be exclusivelly for co-ops , or am I wrong ?



Err.... are you seriously stating that a ship dedicated to scanning should not give any decent benefit to scanning? Oooook...

It's not like you can't find radar sites, it's just you can't find the hardest. Besides, if you REALLY do not want to use a covop, train that astrometric triangulation to 5, or get a decent implant and you are golden. What is the problem again?

EDIT: now that I re-read the post again I see you are generalizing your experience. Most radar sites can be found without a covop. The hardest, which is probably one of those you hit, might need a covop. Seems perfectly balanced to me.


It wasnt that great tbh , 4 empty spawn cans / 2 filled , got 8 datacores - 2 dycryptors and some trash

I wasnt complaining about co-ops , I love em.

20% bonus with my rigged falcon ( Impossible to find )
50% bonus with my co-ops - unrigged ( Found in 5 minutes ).



Seems to me the maths which returns scan results leads to a situation where sites become unscannable at certain scan strength.

and please believe me I dont mean difficult to find I mean Impossible.







your covops was unrigged ?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:04:00 - [6]
 

It is balanced so that the smallest signatures requires CovOps to find .. this is intentional.
Think of it as the price for all ships now being able to fit the basic exploration launchers.

We had long arguments with CCP Greyscale in his threads during testing about signature size vs, probe strength, started out with a lot more being for CovOps only, now it is 'only' the hardest that require CovOps provided you have near-max/max skills

Random Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:24:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
It is balanced so that the smallest signatures requires CovOps to find .. this is intentional.
Think of it as the price for all ships now being able to fit the basic exploration launchers.

We had long arguments with CCP Greyscale in his threads during testing about signature size vs, probe strength, started out with a lot more being for CovOps only, now it is 'only' the hardest that require CovOps provided you have near-max/max skills


Thanks for the info , Do you know a link so I can read up please.

Seems a shame that the probes dont let you know it unresolvable before you waste 2 hours of your life.
Time sinks are not fun ccp are you listening ? do I pay my subs each month to have my chain pulled ?

Maybe theres some info somewhere as a guide to what sig strength is findable with what probe strength ?




Arous Drephius
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Random Caldari
Seems a shame that the probes dont let you know it unresolvable before you waste 2 hours of your life.


Did you not once think during that 2 hour period that you should get a ship, you know, designed to scan stuff out rather than spend more time?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Random Caldari

Thanks for the info , Do you know a link so I can read up please.

Maybe theres some info somewhere as a guide to what sig strength is findable with what probe strength ?

It's buried in the massive Scanning and Wormhole sticky here in the Development section.

I have all skills to level 4 and I will get my CovOps if I find a signature with <1% strength when using a 32AU Core probe because, I might find it or I might not .. I had the same experience as you Laughing

There will be websites popping up with all sorts of data when people have gotten their fill of Sleeper action, so no guide yet.

Random Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:50:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Arous Drephius
Originally by: Random Caldari
Seems a shame that the probes dont let you know it unresolvable before you waste 2 hours of your life.


Did you not once think during that 2 hour period that you should get a ship, you know, designed to scan stuff out rather than spend more time?


Yes

And had I known that sigs can be unscannable due to sig size then I woulda done it much sooner, or gone and done something fun instead.
Just re-read the scanning dev blog , which is nice , but does not mention unscannable sigs.
Maybe that should be edited with more info so others dont waste there time also ?

Anyone got a formula for working out require probe strength ?



Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.14 08:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Random Caldari
And had I known that sigs can be unscannable due to sig size then I woulda done it much sooner, or gone and done something fun instead.


*sigh*... reading the scanning sticky, as it has already been suggested, maybe?

Originally by: Random Caldari
Just re-read the scanning dev blog , which is nice , but does not mention unscannable sigs.


Maybe, reading the above mentioned sticky? I do agree however that this information should be mentioned also in the dev blog. People who approach scanning withut making it a full profession should know what they can do or not.

Originally by: Random Caldari
Anyone got a formula for working out require probe strength ?


Maybe, reading the above mentioned sticky (page 28)?

All the answers you seek are there.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.14 09:22:00 - [12]
 

cov ops should get a deviation bonus.
same thing? no, not really, being a "negative" bonus and all that...

then they could skip probe ranges more often and would be (a lot) faster.
this would result in them being a viable option, especially for pvp, rather than a requirement.

the other strength bonuses can stay: rigs and skills pose enough dedication. imps are imps
oh and maybe bump the sisters launchers' bonus to 10% - to be more in line with all the strength bonuses x_X

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.14 10:00:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Random Caldari
and please believe me I dont mean difficult to find I mean Impossible.
yes, we've stated that in the huge scan thread many times without response. especially when it comes to combat probing and eccm.

the buzzard was named to be the critical example. everything seems to have been balanced around it, or rather; balance started from there. it's the worst ship to probe - if unfitted (!)

rule of thumb: have 1 sensor for every 2 signature and you're "invulnerable"
(however, i have a nagging feeling that again not all aspect were thought of and for example sisters scan probes were not included)

stuff to help you there:
- halo implants
- x-instinct boosters
- skirmish warfare link: evasive maneuvers (-15% on "plain" BC, no mindlink yet)
- minnie titan x_X

- eccm
- remote eccm
- information warfare link: sensor integrity (+22.5% on "plain" BC, no mindlink yet)

may sound easier than it is, really... but everything up to logistics can be made invulnerable on a safe spot with the help of 1 eccm, mostly low slot even.
a claymore w/ 3 eccm can be parked anywhere and have its links running aswell.
for everything else, there's this 2.5mil toon (+757,18%):

[Griffin, New Setup 1]
Capacitor Power Relay I

Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]


 

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