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Wravenia Wravitch
Posted - 2009.03.12 00:46:00 - [1]
 

Kind of a new player, been at it 7 days. My first character was below 1 mil sp when M10 hit.

I really like the game, so I fired up a second account and started training a new character with the 100% bonus.

I used my first remap to go 12/12/8/8/5 focused on int/mem.

My plan was to train up learning int/mem basic skills to 4, then hit advanced learning skills to 4 - I have Cyber to 4 with +4plants.

After that I was going to repeat down the wil/per skills using my higher int.

Then train my int/mem shield/science other skills.

Train 3 empathy (cause it helps something in wil/per category stuff)

Remap to wil/perc and repeat the process. Later working on ships/gunnery etc till I get a year in for a balance remap.

In the meantime I will play my 7 day character.

Now.

Finally, the question:

Is the extra attribute points for level 5 basic skills worth the time (approx 2days each - 10days total I think) or should I concentrate on using my 100% time and remaining SP's on fleshing out my non-learning skills? (4basic 4advanced) vs (5basic 4advanced)

My one year goals are simple. I want to fly frigs really well, before graduating ship classes. I don't mind flying tackle or scram. Kind of like flying in at high speed to die gloriously!

Besides I am a noob and have time to blow frigs up - right?

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.12 01:04:00 - [2]
 

IMO 5/4 is not worth it, 4/4 is sufficient. With the setup you have, it's about a 5% difference, or 2 days per month. It'll take 5 months to "recover" the 10 days lost, or something.

Ms Delerium
Posted - 2009.03.12 02:03:00 - [3]
 

you just opened again the biggest debate about learning skills and which ones "are worth" or not.

if you plan to stay for years then plan to get them all to level V, even advanced ones.

for "casual" gamers, and I include those who will play for less than 2 years, just get them to level 4, you will even leave the advanced to 3 if playtime is kinda short.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.12 04:09:00 - [4]
 

If you count pure skill training time, then yes, training learning skills to V is worth it if you play for years. If, however, you care more about having fun then training useless skills that will barely pay off even after 2-3 years, then I'd avoid it.

Personally, I believe newbies should train up learning skills at a...leisurely pace. Get the basics up to 3 pretty quickly, and from there get them up to 4 as you can between training useful skills...and then get advanced learnings, get those up to 2/3 pretty quickly, and then, again, get them to 4 when you can.


Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2009.03.12 09:12:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch

My plan was to train up learning int/mem basic skills to 4, then hit advanced learning skills to 4 - I have Cyber to 4 with +4plants.



Don't bother.

Download EveMon and load up a skill plan - it will tell you what learning skills you NEED to train and will actually give your CURRENT skill plan a boost.

That way you can train for your frigate NOW and have some fun NOW, rather than spending your time training learning skills and not actually enjoying the game :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.03.12 10:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch
Remap to wil/perc and repeat the process

You forgot the "wait one year" part right before this one Twisted Evil

Random Thug
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:39:00 - [7]
 


Train useful skills when logged on.
Switch to learning when logging off.

5/5 is not worth it IMHO, 4/3 takes about 2 weeks and gives a nice boost.

If you're really obsessy-compulsy like me you can go 5/4 or 5/5 but it's a huge pain in the butt.

Charlene Eden
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch
Remap to wil/perc and repeat the process

You forgot the "wait one year" part right before this one Twisted Evil



The 12 month timer only kicks in after two remaps for a new character.

Ellova Sonovavich
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Libera Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:55:00 - [9]
 

I'm learning Learning 5 because Its only 2 days and a bit for me and I like the bonuses.

Patience gets you everything in Eve.

Grista
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:43:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Grista on 12/03/2009 16:45:34
Couple things about Learning skills:

1. Make sure you're training them in the optimal order. A number of sites and new player guides have information about this.

2. The "sweet spot" for training "advanced" learning skills (the skillbooks cost 4.5M iirc) used to be around 1.5M skillpoints. That's the point at which you can fly and fit some set of ships well enough to not be bored while you train learning skills for a month. With the advent of Apocrypha, it makes sense to take advantage of the increased training speed (below 1.6M) to train learning for a skillpoint per hour optimization perspective. However, new players will find it challenging to afford the skillbooks to "maximize" their training speed in this way. It's also pretty boring.

3. Train cybernetics one as soon as possible and take advantage of the +1 implants you receive from early mission rewards, including storylines. These are very cheap, comparitively, and will help reduce training time.

edit: It's been years since I looked at it, but the payback on Learning V was something like a year or more. It's better to train other basic Learning skills to V before Learning itself.

Ky Vatta
Majority 12
Posted - 2009.03.12 21:54:00 - [11]
 

Rolling EyesThere is only 1 Learningskill...

...the others are ATTRIBUTE skills

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.12 22:21:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ky Vatta
Rolling EyesThere is only 1 Learningskill...

...the others are ATTRIBUTE skills

Needlessly pedantic. Everyone refers to them as "[the] learning skills", and besides they're in the "Learning" category in the skill tree. I'd go so far as to say that the term "attribute skills" is less likely to be understood than "learning skills".

Wravenia Wravitch
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:59:00 - [13]
 

Wow I did not expect all the good answers. Really thought I would get more - "noob!" or "Can Iaz your stuffz" answers.

Guess I found the right game.

I *think* that for me 4/4 basics and 4/4 advanced will do. Its so hard to tell. Short term I have a plan. But am too uneducated to make a long term one.

Looking into the future of my 1.6mil 100% skills it looks like 4/4 learning will leave enough SP's and time for me to get great initial gunnery skills, strong armor skills and strong passive shield skills. With enough SP's left over to touch on Navigation/Afterburners + advanced, Social/Connections, Drones.

If you take the basic learning skills to 5 then you eat up enough initial SP's that you cant flesh out skills past the basics. I think the skills for frig pvp are pretty important for a newb like me so I can get to play a bit of pvp.

If anyone is interested I can post my plan, although there are several posted already that make really good sense.

Thanks to all how posted! smart folks on Eve.

Grista
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.03.13 01:16:00 - [14]
 

This thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1021218
has a learning skill plan which is pretty much correct. The first reply notes the minor errors.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.13 01:58:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 13/03/2009 18:04:17
Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch
I *think* that for me 4/4 basics and 4/4 advanced will do.

Heh - "4/4" is shorthand for "basics to level 4, and advanced to level 4". It doesn't mean 4 out of 4 (since the skills actually go up to 5). It's just a quick way of distinguishing between the different points that people generally take learning skills to - from 4/3 though 4/4 to 5/4 and finally 5/5 for the crazy people. Smile But terminology aside, that's a reasonable choice. In your position I might even suggest going 4/3 for now (training the five advanced learning skills from level 3 to level 4 will take you around 3 days each) and then training "real" skills; come back to take the advanced skills to level 4 in another few months when you're starting to train higher-ranked skills to level 5.

Technically yes it's "optimal" to train all the learning skills ASAP, but only if you measure success in total amount of skillpoints. Going to 4/4 in one go is not outrageous by any means, but once you've got the advanced skills to three, reassess the situation and how you feel about getting back to training real skills - don't be afraid to park them there for a while, especially at this point in your career.

Morlar
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:55:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Morlar on 13/03/2009 14:02:26
I'm approaching 5 million SPs myself and have the learning skills at 4/4. It's served me well...I can fly assault frigates, I'm a damn good gunner, I'm about the be a decent explorer and I have a million SPs in industry skills as well.

I will admit, I'm a touch impatient, which is why I'm not taking the skills to 5...I'd rather have the "pew-pew" stuff. Cool

digital0verdose
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 14:43:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch
I *think* that for me 4/4 basics and 4/4 advanced will do.

Heh - "4/4" is shorthand for "basics to level 4, and advanced to level 4". It doesn't mean 4 out of 4 (since the skills actually go up to 5). It's just a quick way of distinguishing between the different points that people generally take learning skills to - from 4/3 though 4/4 to 5/4 and finally 5/5 for the crazy people. Smile But terminology aside, that's a reasonable choice. In your position I might even suggest going 4/3 for now (training the five advanced learning skills from level 3 to level 4 will take you around 3 days) and then training "real" skills; come back to take the advanced skills to level 4 in another few months when you're starting to train higher-ranked skills to level 5.

Technically yes it's "optimal" to train all the learning skills ASAP, but only if you measure success in total amount of skillpoints. Going to 4/4 in one go is not outrageous by any means, but once you've got the advanced skills to three, reassess the situation and how you feel about getting back to training real skills - don't be afraid to park them there for a while, especially at this point in your career.


This. 4/3 is just fine. Doing some math, 4/4 only become a good idea if you have a relatively large string of x3+ skills or more that you want to get moving to IV or V.

Random Thug
Posted - 2009.03.13 19:22:00 - [18]
 


I agree that 4/3 is the sweet spot.

Throw on some +3 implants and you've got a party.

digital0verdose
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.13 19:29:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Random Thug

I agree that 4/3 is the sweet spot.

Throw on some +3 implants and you've got a party.


Wrong, you don't have enough money to have a party at that point. Maybe enough for a pack of Cigs and some Boones Farm.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.13 23:21:00 - [20]
 

Yeah, getting the basic learning skills to 4 is easy, but the advanced ones cost 4.5 mil each, which, if you've just started, 18 million ISK might not be easy money.

Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
Posted - 2009.03.14 08:22:00 - [21]
 

I would suggest training as many learning skills to V as possible (basic, not advanced) since you have the 100% training bonus.

Honestly, the only reason not to do it is that they're generally a bit painful, and getting them done in two days instead of 4-5 will make your life easier down the road. Take any year~ long skillplan and it's beneficial to train the l5 (for five days) for that single +1 on a single attribute.

It's really an option of getting the least fun skills in the game done now in two days, or later on in five, while having lost their benefit for months or years before you get back to them.

Lagruna Zegata
Posted - 2009.03.14 08:50:00 - [22]
 

Actually, it's 22.5 million ISK for 5 advanced skillbooks. Still not easy money. ugh

Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
Posted - 2009.03.14 09:23:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lagruna Zegata
Actually, it's 22.5 million ISK for 5 advanced skillbooks. Still not easy money. ugh


New players don't need charisma for anything....

I doubt they'll be training gang bonus skills, corp leadership, or command ships while 4.5M for a skillbook is still expensive... Laughing

Wravenia Wravitch
Posted - 2009.03.14 13:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Lagruna Zegata
Actually, it's 22.5 million ISK for 5 advanced skillbooks. Still not easy money. ugh


Well as new player I took time to think about what I *was* doing and what was offered by Eve.

WoW: $40 for a Battlechest, $40 for Wrath expac, $30 for a 60day gtc - and then plan on paying in 1year for another expac.

Eve: $40 for two 30day accounts, $35 for a 60 day gtc - sold the gtc for 650mil iskies, free expac when I start.

I feel I got the better deal with Eve. I don't have to be online 24/7 grinding out levels, got my expac free, sold a gtc (legally) and now have enough capital to play the game anyway I want. I can make some decisions and play almost right away.

Immediate impact vs. grinding out stuff for months before I have that same stability.

Duh.

Sell a gtc if you are serious about doing all your leaning skills etc.

If you arent, then take the learning basics and skill them up. Grab a salvager and get to work.

Mischa Zana
Posted - 2009.03.14 20:13:00 - [25]
 

I'm a rookie myself. I played about 2 years ago and didn't like the game due to having to go through the learning skills, lacking patience and whatnot back then.

However, I get what you're trying to do, and I get why you're debating getting the basic learning skills to 5. Allow me to share this with you: My own plan.

So, with 12 in and 12 mem (excellent choice, I did this myself), getting the base skills to 4 and the advanced skills to 4 is an excellent idea. However, there is a snag to level 5 basics and level 4 advanced.

They take a lot of SP.

Around 240k at level 5 for the basics, 120ishk for level 4 advanced. Is this worth it? No. Here's why:

If you're wasting 250k for the 5 learning skills bar cha (ignore Cha for now. It's a waste of double SP :D), and 120k for the 4 advanced skills, you're wasting about 1 mil SP (a bit less I think, though not by much due to that being 200k over level 4) on getting the base skills to 5 alone (1 mil which could have been spent getting other difficult skills to 4/5 such as Drones or Gunnery... or Industrial), which is a waste.

For the advanced skills, you're only wasting about what was it...110k? But that adds up to 440k. By the time you get learnings to 5/4, your 100% SP gains is gone.

I'm not saying that you should never train them, but I AM saying that you should save leveling them further until after your 100% has been used up wisely.

After all, 4/3 puts you at about 19-20 Mem and Int anyways, which is quite high for a rookie who has no implants. That'll get your int and mem based skills (electronics, engineering, navigation, mechanic, science and industrial) up quickly. To be honest, the 1.44 mil SP you wasted on 5/4 learning skills would have been much more useful here.

So long as you have 100% SP, don't level 5 unless it's damn well necessary (drones to get the advanced droning stuff, gunnery to get the advanced weapon based stuff, industrial to go further in that section, if I'm correct... Not sure on the last one. I'm a mission dog)

Think before you spend :)

Euchalla
Posted - 2009.03.15 11:42:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Wravenia Wravitch
Originally by: Lagruna Zegata

If you arent, then take the learning basics and skill them up. Grab a salvager and get to work.


This is precisely what I have been doing. There is so much to learn about the game that min/maxing my time efficiency this much isnt worth it really. I got all my learning up to three, got my skills up to where i could fly cruisers very well and also salvage, then worried about the rest of my learning skills. This way im still doing the same thing or meeting the same goal but while you are not playing, im making millions of isk and also grinding out faction rep. Besides, it only takes a week to really be able to get into level 2s or even 3s if youre not a monkey and have a decent corp.


 

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