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TraininVain
Posted - 2009.03.11 15:53:00 - [31]
 

Personally I think they should address the range issue (150km + jams seems a little excessive in a cruiser hull) and then see where they're up to. Bringing the Falcon in viable engagement range of other ships might help a lot.

Comparing the Falcon to any other e-war boat you have to consider the bonuses.

If you really want to "fix" ECM Calamari need another form of e-war.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2009.03.11 16:02:00 - [32]
 

ECM as a system is balance atm, although I dislike its mechanic.

Falcon is a special case ofc, it can do something the other recons cant, but the real deal is its cloaking capability; the ability to disable ships from a safe distance combined with an ambush factor makes it a must-have in any serious gang, and dulling down the tactical playground. If the falcon's jamming strenght got toned down without touching the rook, which would then have a much better jamming capability than the falcon, then much less players would complain about it. Afterall BBs and Scorps were with us now forever and I didnt see them get called overpowered.

I cant say any ship is overpowered its just the systems they use which flips the balance around. I remember the curse going from pwnmobile to useless-junk to decent recon again. Then there were the ecm drones, suddenly gallente was king at jamming. ECM jamming went through alot of changes since the begining, first it was point based (and IMO it was the best system, together with a dampner squad you could achive cycle-jamming; increasing number of ships jammed, a well deserved reward for teamwork), then it recieved range limitations and became chance based, and finally recieved strenght reduction. Caldari ofc get their ECM bonus' and are uber.

Now if we nerf the falcon, we could nerf its ecm strength or range which would force it into close range where it cant survive. In any case instead we could change the ECM back to a point based system. Chance based systems is IMO the worst you can do to balance a MMO, suddenly its "luck" that becomes the deciding factor of a tactics game. Especially in a player versus player environment like EVE where that last 5% RoF gives you the edge, "luck" is such a bad element. In a point based system you take out "luck" and add teamwork (remember cycle-jamming).

Caldari will be ofc better at it with their mid slots and ecm bonus', but other races could also integrate ECM into their tactics, resulting in more fun suprises. You would need more coordination with your team mates, and thats what all of us wants in the end: more tactics and teamwork instead of mindless blobs of the same old setup.

The point system would have higher points for more specialized ships like recons, cov ops, logistics and less for gunboats; so f.ex. you could either focus your jamming power on those 2 BSs or jam that recon. Falcon would still be stong, able to jam enough to hold its ground, but it wouldnt be a wtfjammobile anymore since with a point system that gang of cruisers might as well have caldari racial jammers which, combined, would shut the falcon down. ECCM would increase your ecm points, and remote ECCM would have a cool down of 60secs but unjams a ship instantly.. just some ideas for more fun pvpingVery Happy

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.11 16:05:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: TraininVain
Personally I think they should address the range issue (150km + jams seems a little excessive in a cruiser hull) and then see where they're up to.

Bringing the Falcon in viable engagement range of other ships might help a lot.




Caldari are the race with the range bonuses, its on their turrets ships as well fyi...are you gonna nerf the eagle ect ect as well?.

And what system do you suggest you use as a bench mark to use for a "viable engagement range"....BS pulse...like they are not already OP compared to the other races comparative systems.

How about putting falcons within "viable" blaster range instead...Laughing

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.03.11 16:14:00 - [34]
 

Leave the Falcon alone.
Leave ECM alone.
"Fix" ECCM, perhaps improve overloading on it? Add an ECCM Burst module?

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:43:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 11/03/2009 18:46:38
Originally by: Lucia Wilber

If the Falcon (And ECM in general) isn't overpowered/broken, how come it's the only form of E-War people complain about? If it's truly on-par with the others, wouldn't the complaints about ECM be matched by complaints about Tracking distruption, neuts/vamps, and target painting?



Huh? Want some complaints, here they come:

- TDs: rendering my ACs ineffective with just 1 module, nothing I could do to counter as there is no way to get the lost falloff back

- neuts: taking all my cap and cant do anything about it, my inject doesnt help as I need it anyway on my setup to be stable

- webs (with bonus): take my speed away, nothing I could do against it, cant ever get in range to use my own web

- RSDs: making my frig/ceptor unable to tackle with just one module, nothing I could do to counter as there isnt even a slot for a counter mod

- TPs (lol): make my small ship vulnerable against oversized missiles/turrets which deal way too much damage for my ship to tank


I forget something there?


Edit: to say somewhat on topic, the only thing on ecm that is worth considering to change is the off-race strength on racials. Should be lower or removed completely.

Its obvious if you do some real research in the topic, instead of ranting.

vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:14:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

- TDs: rendering my ACs ineffective with just 1 module, nothing I could do to counter as there is no way to get the lost falloff back



But your drone can still fight and your weapons have the potential to be able to still deal damage if you move yourself in such a way to mitigate the effects of the TD. It also doesn't affect neuts, ew you yourself may be using or missiles, meaning you have the potential to stop this effect.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

- neuts: taking all my cap and cant do anything about it, my inject doesnt help as I need it anyway on my setup to be stable



It takes a fair amount of neut to end the cap on a ship and if you do in fact use autocannons and you're not just a troll, you can still shoot.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

- webs (with bonus): take my speed away, nothing I could do against it, cant ever get in range to use my own web



Webs just had their effect reduced and once again, when under the effects of webs you can still fight, giving you personally the potential power to be able to remove the webbing effect via EW, killing the target, forcing them to run with drones, neuting them till they cant use it any more... and if the target is inside web range you can combat web by webbing them yourself.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

- RSDs: making my frig/ceptor unable to tackle with just one module, nothing I could do to counter as there isnt even a slot for a counter mod



A single ECM module on a decent skilled falcon pilot has a 100% change of permajamming maybe 80% (probably more) of frigate class ships. Damp however can be mitigated by just moving closer, and regardless of the risks of this, it can be mitigated. Also damps have very little effect against close to mid range ships as soon as they reach tech 2 cruiser level.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

- TPs (lol): make my small ship vulnerable against oversized missiles/turrets which deal way too much damage for my ship to tank



Overtanking is something that bothers me massively, and the smaller your ship is the less the effect of the a target painter. Especially since now missiles get a bonus for hitting something larger than their explosion radius the same as turrets. And once again, you can still fight and do something about it. The increased damage doesn't stop you from mitigating the damage against you yourself, via tracking disruptor's for example. Anyway to mention it only increases the damage you would take anyway, since eve is a such dynamic environment you should never count on being able to tank anything anyway.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

Edit: to say somewhat on topic, the only thing on ecm that is worth considering to change is the off-race strength on racials. Should be lower or removed completely.

Its obvious if you do some real research in the topic, instead of ranting.


Well you see the offrace strength isn't really the issue, the chances of getting hit by that are minimal anyway, its the fact that you can get jam str on a single jammer up to around the 14 mark and then use it at a range where nothing can hit you unless it is specifically fitted just to take you out, in which case, you just run away.

A single falcon can lock down maybe 4 non-EW, un-eccm'd ships, no other recon can do that. The arazu used to be able to do it because it used to be possible to get a single damp to reduce target speed and range by 90%! This meant it and a damage ship could lock down as many ships as the gallante recon had jammers.
Now however, an arazu with average skills using scripts can reduce 1 target by what, 75, 80%? 1 sensor booster and your recon will just die after the target sends drones after it.

And despite the curse and pilgrim being very good ships, they can be caught and killed by good pilots, the min recons even more so, if we're really honest, they were fragile ships before the speed nerf, though pinning them down was very hard. Since the speed nerf they're even more so, this is balanced!

Bodhisattvas
0utbreak
Posted - 2009.03.12 00:06:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas


It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!


It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!


WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????....LaughingLaughing...lame indeed.



Assuming stuffs to further your argument is indeed lame split arse.

Phal boy
Posted - 2009.03.12 00:09:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 12:10:15
Originally by: vostok



0 content only troll.


If you do not have the ability to counter a point with facts trying to dismiss it instead is a poor substitute.

1. Why fly a un-sieged moros against a drone swarm (and if so fit a freaking smart bomb ffs).

2. Removing a mechanic because it makes poorly prepared and naively fitted ships/gangs lose is absurd, it should be applauded for doing so as it forces a skill and fitting evolution among those wishing to improve.


yada yada yada yakkety yakkety yak post with your main you cod piece.

Seriya
Caldari
LogiTech Systems
Posted - 2009.03.12 00:29:00 - [39]
 

The counters to ECM are rubbish. Fix them.

- Sensor Backup Arrays could actually be backup sensors that function through the first jam in addition to adding to sensor strength. You'd need jamming one additional time for each backup arry you fit.

- Make activated ECCM reset any sucessful jam cycles on you in addition to raising your sensor strength.

tropic89
Posted - 2009.03.12 02:51:00 - [40]
 

stfu you whinning pos ***got cry babies who are ****ing the bane of eve online, go get the **** out of here and play wow, you sorry ***got whinners.


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