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Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:05:00 - [1]
 

Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:13:00 - [2]
 

What? you mean people should be forced to employ countermeasures? Why that's outrageous, My ship should be immune to ECM and have a godlike tank and 20 pounds of EWar through my sheer willpower alone.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:12:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Xindi Kraid
What? you mean people should be forced to employ countermeasures? Why that's outrageous, My ship should be immune to ECM and have a godlike tank and 20 pounds of EWar through my sheer willpower alone.


Amen, I wish I didn't have to fit shield extenders and hardners to defend myself from your weapons too. It would mean I would have more midslots available for ECCM

Larsonist
Darkwave Technologies
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.03.10 21:52:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Larsonist on 10/03/2009 21:52:20
The following link explains just how powerful a falcon is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcArnepkhv0

Stil Harkonnen
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:11:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 10/03/2009 22:11:58
In fixing ECM, you'd also need to fix the falcon. It's a dual fix

The argument that falcons have paper thin tanks is void. As far as I'm concerned, if a falcon pilot tried hard enough, they could fit just a good of a tank as any other recon cruiser pilot(which isn't a very good one). But wait, The falcon's range is so ridiculously huge that they don't even need to fit a tank.
People who can't stand to fight without their precious falcons say "well you should carry ships around with you to counter falcons". Any ship specifically fit to fighting falcons could be doing so much more if it didn't have to fit specifically to fight falcons....therefore, no, we should not have to fit specific ships in our gang just to counter ONE (oh wait, sometimes multiple) falcon(s). All other recons operate well within the reasonable engagement distance, making them part of the fight, too. Here, falcons are definitely more powerful than other recon ships.

Falcons (and ECM in general) are also able to take multiple ships COMPLETELY out of combat, logistics, etc. No other recon can do this. Arazu's for example, can tackle from long distances. cool. it can also damp out 1 target very well (but still allowing it to engage all the ships that are close to it, notice). The arazu can also maybe take 2 ships out of cambat, but only if your entire fleet operates at long ranges. Not very practical. The arazu does its job fine, the falcon does its job TOO well. Being able to take multiple targets completely out of the fight is def OP.

All recons have realistic counters to them. propulsion modules make webs less effective. sensor damps can be negated with sensor boosters. tracking disruptors can be negated with tracking enhancers. ECM can be negated by ECCM.....which does nothing other than MAYBE stop you from being jammed....has no realistic use other than countering ECM which you may not even encounter in the current roam....my overheated ECCM'd thorax gets jammed by a noob griffin consistently....OP. All recons have realistic and helpful counters except Falcons. The counter to a falcon does not always work and has no uses other than countering ECM. fitting ECCM MIGHT fix the problem of getting jammed while taking up precious mid slots.


1)nerf falcon range, but give a little bit more survivability being closer to combat.
2)make ECM's "chance" based mechanic more balanced because a 90% jam rate isn't really "chance" to me.
3)make ECCM do something other than give you more sensor strength. Unless I'm mistaken, sensor strength does nothing for your ship.


Lucia Wilber
Minmatar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:19:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 10/03/2009 22:20:51
Or here's a pair of ideas for ECM.

If you fail to jam a target, that target becomes immune to ECM for the duration of the failed jam. In other words, if one Falcon fails to jam a target for 20 seconds, that target is now immune to all ECM attempts from anyone for 20 seconds.

-OR-

Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.

Edit: Missile users get FOF missiles that they can fire without a lock. If you're not going to fix ECM (which CCP admitted is broken, so I heard), give us turret users an FOF form of turrets.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:56:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/03/2009 22:58:03
Originally by: Lucia Wilber
If you fail to jam a target, that target becomes immune to ECM for the duration of the failed jam. In other words, if one Falcon fails to jam a target for 20 seconds, that target is now immune to all ECM attempts from anyone for 20 seconds.


Will be horribly exploited. Say hi to zero-skill alts using incorrect T1 racials to make you immune to jamming.

Quote:
Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.


Not only does it break the rules of EVE (no other offensive module suffers diminishing returns), but it will be instant death to all ECM ships. Make that change, and you now have (at most) 35 seconds to live against any sniper battleship within 250km.




As for the idea that TDs/damps/webs have a counter, sorry, but that's bull****. If you're fitting a tracking computer/sensor booster/etc, you're fitting it because you need it, not because you hope to counter ewar. For example, a typical sniper battleship requires those tracking computers to reach fleet ranges, one TD will slash its range more than enough to keep it from ever hitting the primary, and I guarantee you no sniper battleship (except maybe a Rokh operating on the very low end of sniping ranges) is going to have spare slots for extra TCs to counter the ewar, even if it wouldn't be a futile effort due to the stacking penalty. The result: one module takes it out of the fight with 100% effectiveness and no counter, as long as the ewar pilot knows how to use his ship properly.


If you want to add similar "must use it correctly" restrictions to ECM, say goodbye to the chance-based mechanic and say hello to 100% jamming when it is used correctly.

Lucia Wilber
Minmatar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.03.10 23:46:00 - [8]
 

I hadn't considered the exploit of having a friend hit you with crap ECM.

As for people saying that "Falcon Whiners" have nothing to cry about, I personally haven't encountered any serious issues with the Falcon because I'm not quite skilled enough to go out PvPing just yet. However, ask yourself this:

If the Falcon (And ECM in general) isn't overpowered/broken, how come it's the only form of E-War people complain about? If it's truly on-par with the others, wouldn't the complaints about ECM be matched by complaints about Tracking distruption, neuts/vamps, and target painting?

If the Falcon specifically isn't overpowered, then how come fleets are gauged based on either A) How many falcons they bring or B) How much Falcon-specific counters they have?

You think Falcons are balanced? Then how come your only defense is "You only hate Falcons because you don't know how to counter them!"? Really? You think a ship is balanced when a whole slew of combat tactics, ship loadouts, and fleet composition exists specifically to counter that one ship? I mean, we're not even talking about a group of tactics to counter Force Recon ships as a whole, but about tactics and loadouts made to counter one particular ship!.

You still think Falcons are balanced and that ECM doesn't need attention?

General Coochie
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2009.03.11 00:41:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM


I know a certain anti pie corp that has more then double kills with falcons then any other ship.

No it doesn't suck its the most useful gang ship in the game. Tank irrelevant, dps irrelevant. Mitigating a small gangs dps by about 30-80% (depending on ships and numbers) THAT is relevant.

Its probably one of the most specialized ships in the game. It sucks at everything else but it excels so much at what it does it impacts the game tremendously.

Therlite
Posted - 2009.03.11 00:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lucia Wilber
Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 10/03/2009 22:20:51
Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.

this crap broke my undead rogue, don't make it break my falcon too Evil or Very Mad

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources
Posted - 2009.03.11 02:07:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: arbiter reformed on 11/03/2009 02:08:15
ccp already said there looking at ecm ships ranges which meens nerfbat,
but tbh i wish theyd make a more fun mechanic, i wish caldari had a good solo recon that i could roam with, like pilgrims or summin, be more fun for everyone i think rather thjan this army of falcon alts,
i must admit i have two tho but all caldari racials all the time. and whatever anyone says a falcon is the best falcon counter otherwise id have cerb alts, which do not work as well in reality

Pvt Public7
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.03.11 04:14:00 - [12]
 

Make ECM drop max locked targets. If current locked targets > jammed locked targets, de-lock targets at random.
Obviously, that'd need balancing and a randomiser element.
And, of course, max locked targets value would go from integer to decimal.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.11 06:06:00 - [13]
 

falcon is one of the only true ew ships in eve (rook, scorp etc. being the others). Make the other ew ships be ew ships, wth does the huggin need 6 guns + drones when it's a fricken ew ship it's main offense should be ew not even fricken webs it should be using EW..... aside from that only problem I see is how the falcon is soo much greater than the rook.


vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.03.11 06:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM


Please don't make us actually calculate the odds of this. If you're a well skilled pilot in a falcon your odds of jamming an average frig/cruiser(non EW based) are massive regardless of eccm, and lets face it, BS aren't much better off. You can easily hit figues of over 90 with 2 racial jammers, stagger that, factor in relock time and poof, you end up with people whining on the forums...

Adaera
Posted - 2009.03.11 06:54:00 - [15]
 

At this point I'm resigned to the Falcon getting nerfed. The only question is - how badly will it be? Confused

... And how many nanoseconds will it take for people to start bawwwing about remote rep blobs instead?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.11 07:38:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM


We've already had this discussion
.

Bodhisattvas
0utbreak
Posted - 2009.03.11 08:05:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM


It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!

Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!

Take the ecm out of game period.

If falcons pilots complain give them a pilot seat fitted with a dildo and change the ship bonus to
10% dildo girth and 20% less batteries required per level.

DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.11 08:49:00 - [18]
 

even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.11 11:34:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: DARTHxFREE
even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u


You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?

I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here

The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.11 11:46:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas


It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!


It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!


WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????....LaughingLaughing...lame indeed.

vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.03.11 11:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: DARTHxFREE
even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u


You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?

I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here

The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.


Originally by: Andnowthenews
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas


It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!


It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!


WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????....LaughingLaughing...lame indeed.




Obvious trolls are obvious.


Come on guys at least have some worthwhile content in your posts to lure us into responding.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:10:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 12:10:15
Originally by: vostok



0 content only troll.


If you do not have the ability to counter a point with facts trying to dismiss it instead is a poor substitute.

1. Why fly a un-sieged moros against a drone swarm (and if so fit a freaking smart bomb ffs).

2. Removing a mechanic because it makes poorly prepared and naively fitted ships/gangs lose is absurd, it should be applauded for doing so as it forces a skill and fitting evolution among those wishing to improve.

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:15:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: daisy dook on 11/03/2009 12:15:58
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: DARTHxFREE
even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u


You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?

I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here

The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.


Obvious trolls are obvious.


Come on guys at least have some worthwhile content in your posts to lure us into responding.


So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?

I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM for his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.


antony hartless
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:19:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: antony hartless on 11/03/2009 12:25:06
Edited by: antony hartless on 11/03/2009 12:20:49
Stop complaining about falcons being overpowered. Check on fleet battles, see how many falcon are destroyed, think how many weeks and months pilots have invested to get those skills. Beside that each race is good at something'minmatar have speed, no cap reqiuirement for turrets and dealing different type of dmg, amar have good tank and large drone bay, galente are the best at drones and bonuses for dmg, and caldari have jamming and missile. Train the skills and fly falcons, or fit ECCM. ECCM works fine, just fit one. I have used in battles a domi with 2x ECCM and got 76 sensor strenght, never being jammed even I saw a falcon keeping trying to jamm me. I am tired to see noobs complaining all the time, so developers use their time to nerf instead bringing something new and well done.
Besides, the only good thing at falcons is they jamming, oposite with arazu that have useful both dampners and warp disruptor range bonus, etc.
Or lets nerf everithing, and we will fight only in noob ships. Rolling Eyes

vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:25:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: daisy dook


So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?

I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM foir his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.




Obviously it depends on the ships in question but the fact is, to avoid being jammed most of the time you really need more than 1 eccm module on every ship in your gang, and mid slots aren't so free and easy that you can refit like that and still function against a gang that just brought a falcon.

Guess a curse/pilgrim is always a good bet to have in a gang they tend to upset falcons.


TBH, I'm not that bothered by falcons, I mean they are a bit OP but no more than the arazu was. I'm just bummed out that once again eves 2 best races are caldari and amarr for almost every conceivable role.

xeneon
The Illuminatii
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.


That's like saying a dreadnought sucks because it struggles to hit frigates.

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:40:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: vostok
Originally by: daisy dook


So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?

I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM foir his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.




Obviously it depends on the ships in question but the fact is, to avoid being jammed most of the time you really need more than 1 eccm module on every ship in your gang, and mid slots aren't so free and easy that you can refit like that and still function against a gang that just brought a falcon.

Guess a curse/pilgrim is always a good bet to have in a gang they tend to upset falcons.


TBH, I'm not that bothered by falcons, I mean they are a bit OP but no more than the arazu was. I'm just bummed out that once again eves 2 best races are caldari and amarr for almost every conceivable role.


The poster definately mentioned being unable to fire 50% of the time in a BS.

Can't refit... sounds like the racial jammer issue on the Falcon really - each Falcon will tend to have of each racial so for the situation to happen as the poster suggets on a BS then I would suggest that he soaked up all the jammers leaving the rest of his gang free to kick bottom.

I fear Cerbs/Zealots/Eagles etc more than Pilgrims or Curses when flying a Falcon. If the Pilgrim/Curse gets into rtange then I've messed up but a Cerb easily has the range and has space to fit ECCM.

vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:25:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: daisy dook


The poster definately mentioned being unable to fire 50% of the time in a BS.

Can't refit... sounds like the racial jammer issue on the Falcon really - each Falcon will tend to have of each racial so for the situation to happen as the poster suggets on a BS then I would suggest that he soaked up all the jammers leaving the rest of his gang free to kick bottom.

I fear Cerbs/Zealots/Eagles etc more than Pilgrims or Curses when flying a Falcon. If the Pilgrim/Curse gets into rtange then I've messed up but a Cerb easily has the range and has space to fit ECCM.


I'm surprised by that, wouldn't have expected cerb, zealot or eagle to have 200km targeting range, but then I guess, people are looking to take out falcons now lol.

Also I'm fairly sure that the point about eccm wasn't an at all realistic situation, it was just trying to prove a point.

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: vostok


I'm surprised by that, wouldn't have expected cerb, zealot or eagle to have 200km targeting range, but then I guess, people are looking to take out falcons now lol.


If I could always act at 200km I would still be wary of those ships, however I'm not always able to deploy my full range tank making those ships more deadly.

Originally by: vostok

Also I'm fairly sure that the point about eccm wasn't an at all realistic situation, it was just trying to prove a point.


If the point about ECCM was not realistic then it should not be put forward, it only weakens the position for an ECM nerf/ECCM boost if people are making rediculous claims (btw, when making any claim about the effectiveness of ECCM the person should note how many jammer were applied to them, after all with enough jammers being applied the change of jamming will tend towards 100%).

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.11 14:10:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 11/03/2009 14:10:03
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines...
The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.

Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.

So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM


It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!

Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!

Take the ecm out of game period.

If falcons pilots complain give them a pilot seat fitted with a dildo and change the ship bonus to
10% dildo girth and 20% less batteries required per level.


BUFF SHIPS I LIKE!

NERF SHIPS I HATE!

MY FIFTEEN DOLLARS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FIFTEEN DOLLARS!

In related news, I like strawberry cheesecake better than chocolate cake.


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