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welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.03.14 11:32:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/03/2009 11:40:53
Again with this assumption that ECM effectiveness is intended to be comparable to the other ewars. Once again we're all forgetting the fact that the ECM boats HAVE NO OTHER ROLE. I can't believe some people still honestly believe that damps & td's are supposed to be as effective as ECM when the platforms that utilise them have OTHER extremely effective utility.

The Falcon could arguably take a minimal hit to its range but most of you are trying to find balance where there cannot be balance. ECM and therefore ECM ships can either be very good or very bad, there is no happy medium, the mechanics don't allow it.

edit: In other words the only way CCP might listen is if someone comes up with some sensible buffs to the ECM platforms allowing them to perform another role. Then and only then should a nerf to ECM itself, ever be considered.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 12:14:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
In other words the only way CCP might listen is if someone comes up with some sensible buffs to the ECM platforms allowing them to perform another role. Then and only then should a nerf to ECM itself, ever be considered.
Weell… lesseehere.

Amarr: tracking disruptors and neuts/nos. Disruptors keep people at a medium range where lasers shine and most other weapons don't, and neuts/nots nukes anything cap-heavy, such as Amarr laser boats… hmm.

Gallente: scrams/disruptors and damps. Damps makes people come closer; scrams shut down the MWDs Gallente ships use to get in close with blasters; and scrams and disruptors keep surrendermonkeys from running away… hmm again.

Minmatar: target painint and webs. Both reduce the effectiveness of small fast ships, such as the Minmatar ones… double hmm.

There are two overlapping patterns at play here: each of these have a weapon-affecting ewar bonus (tp, td, damp) and one rather self-nerfing ewar based around the canonical fighting style and design philosophy of each race.

The Caldari ECM boats don't follow this pattern. ECM doesn't change the dynamics of how a weapon work — they just make them not work at all. They also can't be considered self-nerfing since they don't work better against Cally ships than against anything else. The question is, then, how can ECM be changed so that it no longer is anti-everything (the idea mentioned earlier about reducing the target capacity an interesting, but perhaps not entirely useful, idea to this end), and what is the "canonical Caldari fighting style" that the Cally ships should be experts at countering? A bonus to defender missiles, maybe? Razz

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.14 15:36:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: welsh wizard
In other words the only way CCP might listen is if someone comes up with some sensible buffs to the ECM platforms allowing them to perform another role. Then and only then should a nerf to ECM itself, ever be considered.
Weell… lesseehere.

Amarr: tracking disruptors and neuts/nos. Disruptors keep people at a medium range where lasers shine and most other weapons don't, and neuts/nots nukes anything cap-heavy, such as Amarr laser boats… hmm.

Gallente: scrams/disruptors and damps. Damps makes people come closer; scrams shut down the MWDs Gallente ships use to get in close with blasters; and scrams and disruptors keep surrendermonkeys from running away… hmm again.

Minmatar: target painint and webs. Both reduce the effectiveness of small fast ships, such as the Minmatar ones… double hmm.

There are two overlapping patterns at play here: each of these have a weapon-affecting ewar bonus (tp, td, damp) and one rather self-nerfing ewar based around the canonical fighting style and design philosophy of each race.

The Caldari ECM boats don't follow this pattern. ECM doesn't change the dynamics of how a weapon work — they just make them not work at all. They also can't be considered self-nerfing since they don't work better against Cally ships than against anything else. The question is, then, how can ECM be changed so that it no longer is anti-everything (the idea mentioned earlier about reducing the target capacity an interesting, but perhaps not entirely useful, idea to this end), and what is the "canonical Caldari fighting style" that the Cally ships should be experts at countering? A bonus to defender missiles, maybe? Razz


The "canononical" fighting style of Caldari is surely... highly specialised long range ships.

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:13:00 - [154]
 

So what if Falcons are better. Some ship has to be the best. Deal with it and stop whining.

Zaraki KenpachiSan
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:17:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: But Sects
E



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Zaraki KenpachiSan
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:18:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
So what if Falcons are better. Some ship has to be the best. Deal with it and stop whining.


That is not the best, is unbalanced, overpowered, f*ing ridicolous, or call it as you wish.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:22:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
The "canononical" fighting style of Caldari is surely... highly specialised long range ships.
Good point, but both the Gallente and the Minnys already have the range-countermeasure market cornered.

Drone bandwidth jammers maybe, just to kick the Gallente in the shins even more? Razz

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:29:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: marakor on 14/03/2009 16:29:19
Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan
Originally by: But Sects
ECCM

DON'T WORK NOOB


ECCM works, and while it needs a secondary effect and maybe a adjustment here and there its still effective as it is.

Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:52:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/03/2009 17:05:39
Originally by: marakor
Edited by: marakor on 14/03/2009 16:29:19
Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan
Originally by: But Sects
ECCM

DON'T WORK NOOB


ECCM works, and while it needs a secondary effect and maybe a adjustment here and there its still effective as it is.



ECCM works, but to truly neuter an ECM ship you need something to actively counter that ship, for example ECM (Caldari method) or damps (Gallente method).

Chanced based offensive ECM / ECCM / chance based defensive ECM or damps = very good chance to neutralize offensive ECM. If you have nothing that can shoot far. But things that shoot far mostly lock slower than the offensive ECM ship or have delayed damage. Defensive EW affects the target more quickly, with damp ships being better because they lock faster than ECM ships. This is information warfare.

Tal Kjelthorne
Kjelthorne Industries
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:57:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Tippia
The Caldari ECM boats don't follow this pattern. ECM doesn't change the dynamics of how a weapon work — they just make them not work at all. They also can't be considered self-nerfing since they don't work better against Cally ships than against anything else. The question is, then, how can ECM be changed so that it no longer is anti-everything (the idea mentioned earlier about reducing the target capacity an interesting, but perhaps not entirely useful, idea to this end), and what is the "canonical Caldari fighting style" that the Cally ships should be experts at countering? A bonus to defender missiles, maybe? Razz


I think you might be onto something there. Contrary to what aura says, target painters aren't the only "uncounterable" effect in the game. Missiles, for all intents and purposes, also are (DON'T... SAY... DEFENDERS!).

What if ECMs not only screwed up player abilities to target, but missile abilities to target as well, causing them to occasionally "die" mid flight. Essentially turrets wouldn't be as badly affected as missile boats. This would make ECMs useful across the board against missile ships (mostly caldari, I know). Toss defenders out the window and replace those with "countermeasures" that temporarily decrease sig radius of the ship (making them harder to hit by turrets) and screwing up missiles ability to track what it's aiming for, again causing them to die mid-flight. Yes this is two steps, but it would kill the "useless defender" enigma and put ECMs back in line with Caldari theory.

Obviously though, this is going to require serious work.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:05:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Tal Kjelthorne
Originally by: Tippia
The Caldari ECM boats don't follow this pattern. ECM doesn't change the dynamics of how a weapon work — they just make them not work at all. They also can't be considered self-nerfing since they don't work better against Cally ships than against anything else. The question is, then, how can ECM be changed so that it no longer is anti-everything


You are ignoring the fact that the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.


Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:08:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/03/2009 17:12:54
Amarr is not only the capacitor neuting rance, but also the capacitor transfer race, which makes a purely Amarr fleet generally invulnerable against neuts. Cap warfare is very difficult to win against the Amarr, they have so much of it.

tropic89
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:16:00 - [163]
 

Removed. Navigator

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:20:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
You are ignoring the fact that the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.
We're not ignoring it — quite the opposite. We're trying to think of a way to make the Caldari ships follow the same pattern.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:23:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Andnowthenews
You are ignoring the fact that the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.
We're not ignoring it — quite the opposite. We're trying to think of a way to make the Caldari ships follow the same pattern.

What pattern?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:54:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 14/03/2009 17:54:28
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Andnowthenews
You are ignoring the fact that the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.
We're not ignoring it — quite the opposite. We're trying to think of a way to make the Caldari ships follow the same pattern.
What pattern?
Rolling Eyes
Quote:
That the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.14 17:57:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Andnowthenews on 14/03/2009 17:59:25
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 14/03/2009 17:54:28
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Andnowthenews
You are ignoring the fact that the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.
We're not ignoring it — quite the opposite. We're trying to think of a way to make the Caldari ships follow the same pattern.
What pattern?
Rolling Eyes
Quote:
That the other recons also have a secondary ewar system that also effects ALL races of ships (webs/point/nuet) as well as a primary system that also has a 100% guaranteed effect when in its optimal.



Your out of luck as there are no more effects left that you can create another ewar system to specifically disrupt.

Just give ECCM a secondary effect and a fixed amount bonus as well as its % bonus and things will be fine.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:07:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
Your out of luck as there are no more effects left that you can create another ewar system to specifically disrupt.
There are plenty. In this thread alone, there have been the suggestions ewar that reduce the number of locked targets, or that reduce drone bandwidth.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of a few more: you could have drone control range dampening. You could introduce a missile-disruption device analogous to the tracking disruptor, which could affect an number of attributes such as speed, explosion velocity and explosion radius. You could have a general monkey-wrench module that increases the cycle time on offensive modules. You could do nasty things like temporarily reducing CPU and PG and thereby randomly offline modules (for those annoying un-neutable setups). You could have hardening disruptors that reduce damage resistances…

…etc etc etc. Think of a ship stat or mechanic, and then you can figure out some kind of ewar that messes with it.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:13:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Your out of luck as there are no more effects left that you can create another ewar system to specifically disrupt.
There are plenty. In this thread alone, there have been the suggestions ewar that reduce the number of locked targets, or that reduce drone bandwidth.


Oh yea, sorry i thought they were a joke...well actually they are unfortunately you seem to have missed it.

Lets try "worthwhile" effects that do not give the "waaa remove ecm i got jammed" emo boys what they want in the future.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:18:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
Oh yea, sorry i thought they were a joke...well actually they are unfortunately you seem to have missed it.
Incorrect, but you seem to have missed the purpose of the exercise.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:23:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Oh yea, sorry i thought they were a joke...well actually they are unfortunately you seem to have missed it.
Incorrect, but you seem to have missed the purpose of the exercise.


Futility?.

Stupidity?.

Cos that is where those other ideas should be filed under.

Its ECCM that needs a minor adjustment that's all, reworking the entire system to the point of total uselessness just to satisfy a few whiners will never happen.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:45:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews
Its ECCM that needs a minor adjustment that's all, reworking the entire system to the point of total uselessness just to satisfy a few whiners will never happen.
Like I said, you've missed the purpose of the exercise.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:52:00 - [173]
 

The problem is simple, people don't want to use the counter because it is undesirable given the current trends in fotm ship setups. In addition it is largely ineffective when fitted to smaller ships.

Add a secondary effect to ECCM and rework it so that it provides better bonuses to smaller ships.

You can't argue with the maths though. Fact is while everyone has their "mate who fit 2 ECCM and got jammed for 8 hours straight" the maximum attainable jamming strength is what? About 15? A BS who sets up with this in mind can attain a 70-80 sensor strength with a good gang fit...

15/75 = 0.2 or 20% chance to jam based on one module.

IE, if you fit ECCM to your BS it does work. It just doesn't work very well on smaller ships.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.14 19:21:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
You can't argue with the maths though. Fact is while everyone has their "mate who fit 2 ECCM and got jammed for 8 hours straight" the maximum attainable jamming strength is what? About 15? A BS who sets up with this in mind can attain a 70-80 sensor strength with a good gang fit...
…which brings us back to the psychological factor. I wonder how many whines would be mitigated simply by adding a "player X tried to jam you but failed" popup to give people some kind of tangible feedback on how often their ECCM makes a difference.

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.14 19:21:00 - [175]
 

I have mentioned this before about boosting ECCM and giving it a secondarey effect.

Give ECCM a "set amount" boost to sig that will help ceptors ect.

Also give it a % boost so ships that already have high sig STR get the benefit of that.

Sort the two effect out so whatever is the greater is the one that gives the effect, so on a BS/carrier ect the % effect will effect it as the carriers base str is high. But on a frig or ceptor the "set amount" boost takes effect as the ceptor would gain more benefit from it.


Also give ECCM a secondary passive effect, i liked the idea of it reducing sig raduis as it fits well with the story line, ECCM being a anti-caldari ewar system and missiles are most effected by sig radius.



Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.14 19:23:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: welsh wizard
You can't argue with the maths though. Fact is while everyone has their "mate who fit 2 ECCM and got jammed for 8 hours straight" the maximum attainable jamming strength is what? About 15? A BS who sets up with this in mind can attain a 70-80 sensor strength with a good gang fit...
…which brings us back to the psychological factor. I wonder how many whines would be mitigated simply by adding a "player X tried to jam you but failed" popup to give people some kind of tangible feedback on how often their ECCM makes a difference.


PPL would ignore it and continue to whine about the few times they still got jammed along with the need to use a slot up from their precious tank/gank fit......

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.03.14 19:34:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 14/03/2009 19:34:23
I really wish they would just make the ECCM a script for the sensor booster. Simply make it more practical to fit ECCM. That would go a long way.

I still like the idea though of not changing relative strengths... but making it so that falcon's jam strength and maybe number of ships it can target be made a fleet bonus... that way the ship can stay as strong as it is now for large fleets, (where frankly, it's needed) without being so overpowering in a small gang.

Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.03.14 20:14:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/03/2009 20:38:47
Did you know...

that a Falcon putting a racial ECM on an ECCM'd Megathron at 225km has a jamming chance of about 34%?

that there exists a tech 2 Celestis setup that has a 34% chance of breaking the lock of the Falcon at 225km?

that there is a tech 2 Keres setup that has 95% chance to damp a Falcon down if the Keres manages to close to 140km?

that you can fit a Maulus that damps down a Falcon with an 87% chance if it closes to 135km?

that a perfectly supported Lachesis can be fitted to have a chance of 57% to damp down a Falcon at 228km? (And that not even 3 sensor booster II's will counter that single damp hit at such a range?)

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.15 01:05:00 - [179]
 

Did you know that?:

barring recon ships, a perfectly set up falcon has a 270+km optimal on racial jammers and can take anything from frigate to battlecruiser hulls out of the fight (even tier 1 battleships) 100% of the time?

See I can EFT too.

Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.03.15 01:49:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 15/03/2009 01:57:26
Originally by: EFT Warrior
I can EFT.



Then it is no wonder that you missed the significance these (btw mostly non-EFT) numbers have for the pvp business on TQ. Damps are much better than most people here give them credit for. Numbers like "57% at 230km" really speak for themselves for anyone remotely interested in remote sensor dampeners.


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