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MidnightMartyr
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.03.11 17:53:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Coriander Rinne
it's true, a falcon killed my corp's mothership fleet the other day

and then it rescued a kitty out of a tree.

AND THEN ATED THE KITTY. DAT'S TOO FAR MR FLACON Mad


Am I the only one who loled at this?

/Thread TBH

Forumz Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:12:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight

Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Liang Nuren


It's not and it'll get the nerf bat.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:14:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Forumz Warrior
Originally by: Naomi Knight

Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Liang Nuren


It's not and it'll get the nerf bat.

Wanna bet on that?

Forumz Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:16:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Forumz Warrior
Originally by: Naomi Knight

Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Liang Nuren


It's not and it'll get the nerf bat.

Wanna bet on that?


No need. A balance is coming.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:18:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Forumz Warrior


No need. A balance is coming.


So you dont believe it yourself,maybe because you know falcon doesnt need a nerf at all?:D

Forumz Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:21:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Forumz Warrior


No need. A balance is coming.


So you dont believe it yourself,maybe because you know falcon doesnt need a nerf at all?:D


No it does, even as I sit here and look at my falcon alt with 5 mil in electronics Evil or Very Mad

It's the un-fun of eve, both for the falcon pilot and for the people being jammed. It's OP, as made obvious by the fact that just about every 20 man gang is made up of 10-15% falcons.

It's obvious really, and as I said before, coming up with a reasonable balance is the hard part. But I have no doubt in my mind that some changes will be made.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:27:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/03/2009 18:29:15
Originally by: Forumz Warrior

It's obvious really, and as I said before, coming up with a reasonable balance is the hard part. But I have no doubt in my mind that some changes will be made.


There might indeed be a change incoming, but I'm sure at that point the devs have a good idea on how to make ecm even more effective.

Look at the speed 'nerf', people cried for a nerf for ages, and instead got a major buff to speed tactics imo, just disguised as a nerf by lowering attributes. Look at how all the whiners had even more to complain about afterwards, priceless really.

People might eventually get the ecm change they are crying for, but the only ones really liking it in the end will be the falcon pilots, the devs will make sure electronic warfare stays effective and working.

Problem is all you people that are just upset they lost in a video game, you wont get any help, as no dev cares about you being angry at your keyboard Razz

Forumz Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:34:00 - [98]
 

Well, I won't argue that CCP might actually get it wrong, as there are plenty of examples still in the game.

For the most part, this game is more balanced than it ever has been, there's just a few issues that still need to be addressed IMO, the falcon is one of them.

While I'm here:

Same class ships not being able to locks ame class ships.

Arazu + damp strength
Helios -1 mid +1 high
Diemost
Rapier + web strength
Blasters + DPS

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty more.


Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:39:00 - [99]
 

More pg and sensor range for caldari ships
Faster long range missiles
better explo velocity for some missile types
+1 med for all caldari ships.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.11 18:49:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/03/2009 18:53:07
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/03/2009 18:49:20
Originally by: Forumz Warrior

Arazu + damp strength
Helios -1 mid +1 high
Diemost
Rapier + web strength
Blasters + DPS

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty more.



Fixed. The arazu is debatable even, full ack on helios though.

Edit: as some people will be irritated about the arazu comment, we need to get the role of RSDs straight, and that role is not complete lockdown of hostile ships, that role is forcing a possibly longer ranged or flexible ranged ship into blaster distance, and that role they work great in. (People just dont like the role Wink)

Hanns
The Second Sons
Posted - 2009.03.11 19:00:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: AnmmnA
Why those people dont cry when an Arazu scramble him at 70 Km ? Or Rapier freeze their ship to 0.1 m/s ?. Or Curse perma-dry your capacitor ?


Because nobody fly's thos ships everyone fly's falcons Rolling Eyes

And because the falcon is the only ship that has the highest chances to reduce a ships combat ability to Zero

The only other recon that comes close is pilgrim but it has to be danger close unlike falcon, and if it meets a missile boat its screwed.

The gap between recons is too great, i dont think Falcon is that uber its just everyone flys them as the other recons are so sucky in comparison. just buff ECCM a tiny bit.

But I dont really care as my PVP gang has 3 falcons..Rolling Eyes

EgoMan
Posted - 2009.03.11 20:50:00 - [102]
 

Man....when are people gonna stop crying and start thinking? Fit an eccm...use a falcon in YOUR gang bring a sniper ship to take them out fit with eccm. Ive seen dozens of ways to counter falcons and the fact that people want to nerf them just shows that they want cookie cutter SWG NGE style lame game play. Heaven forbid you actually have to employ "tactics"...what would the game be If I couldnt just roll around in my megapwn ship in a mega pwn fleet and just **** everything? The fleets/gangs Ive rolled with never had problems against falcons. We just adapted, planned ahead and employed tactics to minimise the effectiveness of ECM's. Just remember those who can't, complain.....

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:04:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: EgoMan
Man....when are people gonna stop crying and start thinking? Fit an eccm...use a falcon in YOUR gang bring a sniper ship to take them out fit with eccm. Ive seen dozens of ways to counter falcons and the fact that people want to nerf them just shows that they want cookie cutter SWG NGE style lame game play. Heaven forbid you actually have to employ "tactics"...what would the game be If I couldnt just roll around in my megapwn ship in a mega pwn fleet and just **** everything? The fleets/gangs Ive rolled with never had problems against falcons. We just adapted, planned ahead and employed tactics to minimise the effectiveness of ECM's. Just remember those who can't, complain.....

When thinking stops hurting them.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:27:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2009 21:27:18
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2009 17:52:14
Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Naomi Knight, Troll


You know Naomi, I'm actually surprised it wasn't nerfed in the Apo expansion. The whines have been going for well over one whole expansion. What is it now... two or maybe even three expansions ago since it was boosted and the whines started?

-Liang


Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:30:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: AnmmnA
Why those people dont cry when an Arazu scramble him at 70 Km ? Or Rapier freeze their ship to 0.1 m/s ?. Or Curse perma-dry your capacitor ?


Just like to point out curse does jack all to stop proj/missile/drone users, rapier with 6 webs can only slow a ship to 9.6% of it's max speed (slightly better than 1 old web). Also you only mentioned the secondary bonus not the actual ewar bonus (TP, TD, SD).

nabort
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:35:00 - [106]
 

I believe that nerfing is rarely, if ever the answer.

Falcon's are not as game-breaking as many people attest them to be, yet admittedly there is some discrepancy in their ship disabling abilities, when compared to the other Recons.

My thoughts: boost Projected ECCM. It seriously sucks balls. I should think most people didn't realise it existed. This won't completely fix the problem, but at least it'll make another module in EvE actually useful, as well as encouraging the use of the grey blob between your ears.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.11 21:35:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: AnmmnA
Why those people dont cry when an Arazu scramble him at 70 Km ? Or Rapier freeze their ship to 0.1 m/s ?. Or Curse perma-dry your capacitor ?


Just like to point out curse does jack all to stop proj/missile/drone users, rapier with 6 webs can only slow a ship to 9.6% of it's max speed (slightly better than 1 old web). Also you only mentioned the secondary bonus not the actual ewar bonus (TP, TD, SD).


The fact is that in most cases when a ship is getting ganked the other effects give the player getting ganked the "illusion" of having a chance while ecm lays it bare that they do not.

tropic89
Posted - 2009.03.11 22:31:00 - [108]
 

STFU YOU WHINNING LITTLE *****ES.

VaderDSL
Invicta.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.11 22:36:00 - [109]
 

Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity, increase to 100% .. sorted Smile

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.13 06:20:00 - [110]
 

Reading through this thread its just the same old stuff. Non-caldari pilots whining about the falcon because they have been ganked by a gang either larger or better equipped then they are. You think that the only reason you and your mate cant take on a 10 man gang is because of a falcon jamming you out? I havent seen one complaint here about falcons being a problem in fleet fights, and why, because in fleet fights both sides are smart enough to bring falcons with them. If your outnumbered and the opposing gang has a falcon, good luck to them, it saves their ships, not yours, you are going to die anyway. and if your stupid enough to engage a gang that has more ewar than you, than you deserve to die. Smart FC's will treat ewar like dps and know when they are "outgunned"

Easiest solution to this overpowered falcon problem? Make sure you have a falcon in your gang too.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.03.13 08:03:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: AnmmnA
Why those people dont cry when an Arazu scramble him at 70 Km ? Or Rapier freeze their ship to 0.1 m/s ?. Or Curse perma-dry your capacitor ?


Just like to point out curse does jack all to stop proj/missile/drone users, rapier with 6 webs can only slow a ship to 9.6% of it's max speed (slightly better than 1 old web). Also you only mentioned the secondary bonus not the actual ewar bonus (TP, TD, SD).


The fact is that in most cases when a ship is getting ganked the other effects give the player getting ganked the "illusion" of having a chance while ecm lays it bare that they do not.


ECM can save your life when getting ganked - it forces you to de-aggress, which means you might be able dock/jump sooner than you otherwise would.

That's the only reason the Falcon pilot is doing it you know - out of a deep concern for your well being.

Lijhal
Posted - 2009.03.13 08:03:00 - [112]
 

its funny to read that the new npc's are able to pop a falcon and players cant!

lulz

Nienna Fael
Sininen Talo
Posted - 2009.03.13 08:18:00 - [113]
 

With the new probing, falcons have already gotten heavily nerfed.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.03.13 08:25:00 - [114]
 

sensor booster are a better counter to ECM. ECCM is useless, you still get jammed and it does not give you anything useful for your ship. also the ecm range bonus is just wrong.

Doktor Soet
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2009.03.13 09:14:00 - [115]
 

haven`t read all post in here sry.
what i like is the idea of scripting ecm modules but in fact a "solution" to this problem it aint.

fact is that without 2xeccm on a bs chances r very high that u wont be able to lock anything. so fitting just one eccm is form my expirience pretty pointless. even with 2 eccms i was once nearly perma jammed but ok there were 2 falcons... only with 3 eccm fitted (yeah i have a logi domi where i fit 3) u have a chance to make a falcon pilot think "WTF?!?!?". but i dont think thats the way it should be. fitting 2 eccm should be enough to ruin a falcons pilot day.
not sure if its enough to boost eccm but it would be a good beginning.


TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.03.13 11:11:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Elyse Schwartz
Originally by: But Sects
ECCM


Everyone here knows that ECCMs are great, making you virtually immune to the effects of ECM as well as providing a bonus to your ship when up against ships which don't possess ECM. The one thing that has always confused me is if ECCM's suffer a stacking penalty why don't ECMs? In fact as far as I can tell the only things which don't suffer any sort of stacking penalty are high slot items, shield boosters, armor reppers, and ECMs.


If you think ECCM is there to make you immune you are already lost. What other module in eve can make you immune to whatever effect?

And no stacking penalty on ECM? yeah right....

1: All strength modules for ECM have stacking penalty.
2: Strength bonus from commandship is useless if you have 3 modules fitted already. ( Fyi, is not the case when it comes to speedbonuses, etc)

And how on earth will you give a stacking penalty to a chancebased module?

What will you stack with?

If the first jammer fails, how can you stack a module that is not working? As with damps if you work with them outside optimal, they go over to chancebased activation. But they dont start stacking until one damp is actually working on the target. So you can put 3 damps on the target, if 2 fails, the last one will not suffer any penalty.

What some are asking for is:

Major boost to ECCM (cause they feel if they fit ECCM they should be immune to jamming, well, newsflash to you, it doesnt matter how big a tank you fit if enough people shoot you, it doesnt matter how good your cap recharge is if enough people neut and NOS you. Same with jammers, doesnt matter how high strength you have if there is anough jammers to focus on you.)

Stacking penalty on ECM... How will that work? It`s a on/off module. What will be stacked? How will it stack?


I suggest CCP takes a look at the falcon and be done with it. Cause with the heavy nerf this/nerf that, you are effectively asking for a complete range of shps to be useless, scorp, blackbird, rook, kitsune, widow....


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.13 11:36:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2009 21:27:18
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2009 17:52:14
Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Naomi Knight, Troll


You know Naomi, I'm actually surprised it wasn't nerfed in the Apo expansion. The whines have been going for well over one whole expansion. What is it now... two or maybe even three expansions ago since it was boosted and the whines started?

-Liang




Yeah, it's almost as if the devs aren't convinced by the whiners.

hahah what am I saying?

Zackaryel
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.13 12:12:00 - [118]
 

It's funny how Falcon pilots try to turn the Falcon to be weak saying "Bleh we have no tank and no DPS".

I take that point to a certain extent BUT :
It's not the DPS or tanking abilities of the Falcon others are worried about, it's the DPS and tanking abilities of the 2++ plated/shield extended BS'es pounding your ship so hard it'd be like burying you 6-feet underground with a slap on top of your head.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:17:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
You also have the role of the Arazu wrong. It is designed to force things to close with you by eliminating range as an option. It can't even get close to affecting a true "long range ship". Damps are a failure right now.
This is the real problem, as I see it. Range dampening is an obvious aggressive counter-measure to long-range ships (including the falcon's ECM), but that role is completely nullified by the short range at wich dampening works.

In addition, a fundamental balancing problem is the chance-based nature of ECM. As it is, being chance-based is the standard fallback answer why you shouldn't use ECM instead of pretty much everything else: "why not ECM instead of damp? because ECM might not work." As long as that argument exist, proper balancing will always be hard, because of the subjective nature of how strong "random" ECM seems to be.

This is also why the "fit ECCM" argument tends to fall on deaf ears: it has no obvious effect. You have no way of knowing if you're not jammed because your ECCM stacked the random numbers in your favour or because he's just not jamming you (or, well… you do, but it's rather dangerous to look at such tiny details during a fight). Likewise, if you are jammed, you have no way of knowing if it's because your ECCM is crap or because the random numbers don't favour you today.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:48:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 13/03/2009 13:59:23
Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Solution to falcon "problem" (disclaimer: I do not either agree or disagree with the notion that actually a problem exist):
- Scripted ECM mods: script for range/strength

There you got your fix.


Not for nothing but I can fly falcons but I don't (I can fly all the recons between my accounts). I hate them. I'd much rather be in any other recon (including the recently heavily nerfed rapier) than a falcon. This is because falcons - frankly - suck to fly. You're always primary. The second you jump into a system that isn't bookmarked 40 times you lose all your effectiveness against anyone even remotely competant. A second component to that is you need to bookmark the crap out of every system you intend on fighting in. To top it all off, you have to fit your ship out with 90% ECM mods just to be decent at jamming and at that point you have nothing else.

I think ECM would be nice to be changed around a bit but I have no faith that the ships wouldn't be totally useless until it was balanced. As it stands right now, they're good at what they do, they suck at everything else and against competant gangs that understand basic concepts of how to fight people they are nothing more than an expensive loss getting shot after decloaking at the gate.

Let's go through 1 by 1 :

Arazu/Lachesis - People who whine about RSD's don't understand that the Arazu is not a falcon. RSD's are useful in niche situation. Long range warp scrambler is useful in almost every situation. People laugh at my blarazu fit but it works and it ****s so I don't really care if you'd rather keep putting 3x RSD's on your ship and then whining that it isn't powerful enough or effective. Its easily one of the strongest solo PVP'ing ships in the game if you know how to solo PVP. If you don't see value in a 60k EHP tank with 300+ dps and the ability to scram out over 20km then you're not worth making fun of.

Curse/Pilgrim - These are great. Neuting a target out so it can't tank or shoot back at you...tracking disruption isn't meant to be like ECM - its a defensive tool that allows these *cruisers* to slaughter ships that are larger than them and well tanked *SOLO*. These are my personal favorite recons. The pulse pilgrim is similar to the blarazu but of the two I like the Arazu better for that setup.

Rapier/Huginn - These aren't as good as they used to be but they're still decent. I don't really fly them anymore though because all the things the rapier and huginn are good at the curse is that much better at. Still, this was an issue with the web nerf and they're still a lot more fun and effective than a falcon is at solo PVP'ing.


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