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daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.10 17:48:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Solution to falcon "problem" (disclaimer: I do not either agree or disagree with the notion that actually a problem exist):
- Scripted ECM mods: script for range/strength

There you got your fix.


I'm not sure what the Falcon problem is, but the answer is really ECCM.

Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:11:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Solution to falcon "problem" (disclaimer: I do not either agree or disagree with the notion that actually a problem exist):
- Scripted ECM mods: script for range/strength

There you got your fix.


I'm not sure what the Falcon problem is, but the answer is really ECCM.


ECCM plus some sort of active countermeasure brings the jamming chances down to negligible levels.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:13:00 - [63]
 

Can someone link me to the KB that shows these amazing Falcon's that rack up all these kills?

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:28:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Elyse Schwartz
Originally by: Mylinn Funi
Edited by: Mylinn Funi on 09/03/2009 21:05:13
Share your irritation. Overpowered jamming ability and ****e eccm is seriously messing up solo to mid size gang pvp.
Just think how amazing a 1000 falcon fleet would be.
I know you're kidding, but 1000 falcons equipped with modest weapons in highslots could probably best anything but a titan or another fleet of 1000 falcons.

I think that's a pretty good measure of something being in need of balancing. When the only thing that could best it is more of the same or a ****ing titan.

I'm not saying the falcon is overpowered, as I have personal experience overcoming one and killing his friend, but you can't just ignore their existence or you WILL lose. That's a bit much for a mere HAC.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:29:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Solution to falcon "problem" (disclaimer: I do not either agree or disagree with the notion that actually a problem exist):
- Scripted ECM mods: script for range/strength

There you got your fix.


I'm not sure what the Falcon problem is, but the answer is really ECCM.
A single ECCM on a battleship isn't enough to be able to do jack while being jammed by a falcon. You need a minimum of two on a battleship to be able to do anything with 75% reliability if you're the sole target of jams.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:53:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 10/03/2009 17:23:34

Honestly, I'm getting sick of this. I've been watching people whine about ECM for over 5 years now, and I've YET to see someone propose a working solution.

I have watched the devs buff the in-game fitting alternative, which is ECCM, and I've watched them completely rework ECM into a chance-based system where it used to be just a matter of whoever had more sensor strength.

If you don't have a better solution, quit your complaining, honestly. This is the same old crap and if you've been on these forums as long as I have, you'd understand why the whole "Nerf ECM!" argument has gotten old ages ago.



There have been numerous suggestions, they all weren't discussed because everyone seems to be too stubborn to even remotely cosider it. But that goes for both partys. I don't see any hope so istead of a rework we'll eventually see a nerf. To be quite honest I'd like the old ECM mechanics back, than what we have now. No chance based crap, either you get 100% relyably jammed or you don't.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:56:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
I'm not sure what the Falcon problem is, but the answer is really ECCM.
A single ECCM on a battleship isn't enough to be able to do jack while being jammed by a falcon. You need a minimum of two on a battleship to be able to do anything with 75% reliability if you're the sole target of jams.


The problem with this scenario is that you're the SOLE target of jams. A gang vs you, and you complain that you lose?

-Liang

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:03:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

The problem with this scenario is that you're the SOLE target of jams. A gang vs you, and you complain that you lose?

-Liang



Yeah, whenever 2 people fight against 1 they HAVE to win every freaking time, we really shouldn't complain. Your statement, don't try to relativate it.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:05:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
A single ECCM on a battleship isn't enough to be able to do jack while being jammed by a falcon. You need a minimum of two on a battleship to be able to do anything with 75% reliability if you're the sole target of jams.


Why would you be the sole target of jams if you were in a BS?.

Most falcon pilots spread out jams over the ship in a gang...unless you are not in a gang and you are solo, but then you would be in the process of getting ganked by a hostile gang anyway....Rolling Eyes

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:09:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: Liang Nuren

The problem with this scenario is that you're the SOLE target of jams. A gang vs you, and you complain that you lose?

-Liang



Yeah, whenever 2 people fight against 1 they HAVE to win every freaking time, we really shouldn't complain. Your statement, don't try to relativate it.


In a 2 v 1 situation id rather have a arazu as its effect is 100% reliable and as such can be planned around, while the falcon jams could fail (and they do, a lot more often than ppl admit)..


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:10:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Cohkka
Yeah, whenever 2 people fight against 1 they HAVE to win every freaking time, we really shouldn't complain. Your statement, don't try to relativate it.


This is where I tell you to go back to school for reading comprehension. I said nothing about two people beating one *every freaking time*. That's your statement, and you shouldn't try to put it in my mouth.

What I said was that when a *gang* of people (obviously with a force multiplier because of the context provided by the conversation) attacks a solo individual, that individual has no right to ***** when they lose... but they have every right to gloat when they win.

Also, the post to which I responded expected a 75% chance of ignoring the Falcon. 75%?!? That's an absurdly high number to receive from only 2 ECCM's.

But the simple fact is that they brought more than you did... they were more prepared than you... and they won. I'd expect someone from Celes Apoc to understand the mechanics of winning against the odds, but I suppose it must have really gone down hill from when I was in Insurgency with them.

-Liang

Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:24:00 - [72]
 

Ship name: Falcon
Purpose: Ender of PVP

*Combat Simulation Engaged*

1. Your Hurricane warp scrambles target Ishtar.
2. Target Ishtar warp scrambles your Hurricane.
3. You are pwning!
4. Falcon warps in.
5. You are jammed
6. Your wingman is jammed
7. Your grandmother is jammed.
8. You are dead.
9. Your wingman and grandmother are dead.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:47:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Vitrael
Ship name: Falcon
Purpose: Ender of PVP

*Combat Simulation Engaged*

1. Your Hurricane warp scrambles target Ishtar.
2. Target Ishtar warp scrambles your Hurricane.
3. You are pwning!
4. Falcon warps in.
5. You are jammed
6. Your wingman is jammed
7. Your grandmother is jammed.
8. You are dead.
9. Your wingman and grandmother are dead.


And when you actually try some pvp instead of just running worthless emo fueled scenarios you will do everybody a favor and stop posting idiocy.

Geong Si
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:54:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Gneeznow
Originally by: But Sects
E



C




C




M


74 sensor strength, 2x ECCM, was jammed with ease 3 cycles in a row, the falcon never missed a jam, had a similar repeat the following day in the same ishtar, falcon jammed me with ease for 2 cycles enough for his frighter to warp out

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

FALCONS ARE BROKEN

cue the achura falcon defence squad to this thread to feverently try to defend it


I'm curious, were you planning to kill him with kindness?

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:08:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: marakor on 10/03/2009 20:12:03
Originally by: Gneeznow


74 sensor strength, 2x ECCM, was jammed with ease 3 cycles in a row, the falcon never missed a jam, had a similar repeat the following day in the same ishtar, falcon jammed me with ease for 2 cycles enough for his frighter to warp out

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

FALCONS ARE BROKEN

cue the achura falcon defence squad to this thread to feverently try to defend it


And you think a picture proves you were jammed 3 times on the trot?....Its a little odd that you cut off your overview in that screenie as well so it does not show who or what you were fighting.

I saw a fella post a screenie of a carrier with over 500str once, he claimed that he was "jammed several times on the trot as well"Laughing until we asked him to make fraps instead of a single shot screenie and then we did not see any more posts from him.....Rolling Eyes

And even if you are so obsessed that you do try to make fraps how many times do you think you would need to run the test over and over again to get the result you want to show????...


YOU FAIL.Laughing

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:09:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Vitrael
Ship name: Falcon
Purpose: Ender of PVP

*Combat Simulation Engaged*

1. Your Hurricane warp scrambles target Ishtar.
2. Target Ishtar warp scrambles your Hurricane.
3. You are pwning!
4. Falcon warps in.
5. You are jammed
6. Your wingman is jammed
7. Your grandmother is jammed.
8. You are dead.
9. Your wingman and grandmother are dead.


Your wingman being intelligent burns to Falcon and proceeds to launch his drones, or his FoF Missles, or his rack of SB's and destroys paperthin Falcon.

You win

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:18:00 - [77]
 

Has anyone else noticed that the only people defending falcons are all Caldari?

As for Falcons not being able to field a tank:

[Falcon, Tanker]
Damage Control II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I

160km range on ECM and as much EHP as a tanked rapier, and jams anything cruiser sized or smaller. You are almost guaranteed to jam 4 ships of an enemy roaming HAC gang. But of course nobody would fit a tank because that would destroy the argument that falcons have no tank.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:25:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: EFT Warrior
Has anyone else noticed that the only people defending falcons are all Caldari?

As for Falcons not being able to field a tank:

[Falcon, Tanker]
Damage Control II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I

160km range on ECM and as much EHP as a tanked rapier, and jams anything cruiser sized or smaller. You are almost guaranteed to jam 4 ships of an enemy roaming HAC gang. But of course nobody would fit a tank because that would destroy the argument that falcons have no tank.



You mean I have to sacrifice some of my ECM's to fit a tank... kinda like sacrificing some tank to fit an ECCM!!!


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:51:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: EFT Warrior
Has anyone else noticed that the only people defending falcons are all Caldari?


Liang is Gallente, and my loyalties lie with Minmatar. :)

-Liang

Satans Dragon
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:51:00 - [80]
 

seems like you guys kind of repeat the same information.
ok now i'll stop being rude.

ShadowGod56
Posted - 2009.03.10 21:20:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Cadet Seaton
it has the biggest presence in 99% of the gangs you see nowadays.


its also in 99% of the topics on the forums now shut the **** up

Originally by: Cadet Seaton
No one goes out without at least 5 Falcons.


really? last time me and my corp went pvping there wasn't any falcons and all the small gangs we found had no falcons, and if there was a falcon its spine cracked when we looked in its general direction.

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:03:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Geong Si
I'm curious, were you planning to kill him with kindness?


Someone's never heard of ishtar :\

Originally by: marakor
And you think a picture proves you were jammed 3 times on the trot?....Its a little odd that you cut off your overview in that screenie as well so it does not show who or what you were fighting.

I saw a fella post a screenie of a carrier with over 500str once, he claimed that he was "jammed several times on the trot as well"Laughing until we asked him to make fraps instead of a single shot screenie and then we did not see any more posts from him.....Rolling Eyes

And even if you are so obsessed that you do try to make fraps how many times do you think you would need to run the test over and over again to get the result you want to show????...


YOU FAIL.Laughing



this is a really solid argument

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:15:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: marakor on 10/03/2009 22:24:43
Originally by: Gneeznow
Originally by: Geong Si
I'm curious, were you planning to kill him with kindness?


Someone's never heard of ishtar :\

Originally by: marakor
And you think a picture proves you were jammed 3 times on the trot?....Its a little odd that you cut off your overview in that screenie as well so it does not show who or what you were fighting.

I saw a fella post a screenie of a carrier with over 500str once, he claimed that he was "jammed several times on the trot as well"Laughing until we asked him to make fraps instead of a single shot screenie and then we did not see any more posts from him.....Rolling Eyes

And even if you are so obsessed that you do try to make fraps how many times do you think you would need to run the test over and over again to get the result you want to show????...


YOU FAIL.Laughing



this is a really solid argument


Considerably more solid than a edited screenie and a claim of a triple jam cycle imho....

JoeT
Amarr
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:16:00 - [84]
 

I've got a dislike for falcons but there are ways to get them to go away. After one falcon jammed 4 ships almsot perma, a out of corp friend got his cov-ops next to him, and i warpped to him and in a dual sensor boosted BS. Game was over at that point. :)

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:41:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Forumz Warrior
This topic again. Yes Falcons need a nerf and/or ECCM needs to be boosted. A bit of both is probably appropriate.

For example, I recently got in a fight in my domi w/ a mid and a low slot ECCM, both overloaded. Falcon jammed me 7 out of 8 cycles.

No, clearly there's nothing wrong. Rolling Eyes

And this coming from someone with a maxed Falcon alt. They are the un-fun of EVE and they need to be changed. Coming up with a reasonable solution is the hard part.


You can't overload low-slot ECCM.

Also a fully skilled falcon with 2 jamming rigs, 3 sda's & and overloaded ECM only has approx a 22% chance to jam you. On the off chance he had 2x magnetometric ECM fitted thats still as improbable as winning the lottery (slight exageration). Ie, you should probably just be quiet because its obvious you're talking crap.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.11 00:49:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cohkka
Yeah, whenever 2 people fight against 1 they HAVE to win every freaking time, we really shouldn't complain. Your statement, don't try to relativate it.


This is where I tell you to go back to school for reading comprehension. I said nothing about two people beating one *every freaking time*. That's your statement, and you shouldn't try to put it in my mouth.

What I said was that when a *gang* of people (obviously with a force multiplier because of the context provided by the conversation) attacks a solo individual, that individual has no right to ***** when they lose... but they have every right to gloat when they win.



Last time I checked 2 people qualify as a gang. If you use such generalizing statements it's your problem.

And no Celes has been this bad since I joined, back in 2004. It didn't turn bad when you weren't around anymore to save it, sorry.Rolling Eyes And yes it makes sense to say someone is perfectly (unlike you I don't make vague claims so I can relativate when people prove me wrong) prepared when he's fielding a Falcon with him. The question is: Why can't you see that something is wrong with that?

Forumz Warrior
Posted - 2009.03.11 01:16:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Forumz Warrior
This topic again. Yes Falcons need a nerf and/or ECCM needs to be boosted. A bit of both is probably appropriate.

For example, I recently got in a fight in my domi w/ a mid and a low slot ECCM, both overloaded. Falcon jammed me 7 out of 8 cycles.

No, clearly there's nothing wrong. Rolling Eyes

And this coming from someone with a maxed Falcon alt. They are the un-fun of EVE and they need to be changed. Coming up with a reasonable solution is the hard part.


You can't overload low-slot ECCM.

Also a fully skilled falcon with 2 jamming rigs, 3 sda's & and overloaded ECM only has approx a 22% chance to jam you. On the off chance he had 2x magnetometric ECM fitted thats still as improbable as winning the lottery (slight exageration). Ie, you should probably just be quiet because its obvious you're talking crap.


Not at all. Obviously I'm mistaken about the low slot being overloaded, but indeed my setup uses 2 ECCM. You can see it here:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1018093

At the time I was being primaried, I just overloaded the entire bottom rack, since it's just a hardner, ECCM and a DC, so I assumed it was overloaded. Regardless, a falcon having a 22% chance to jam a dual ECCM'd BS is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

Thanks for enforcing the fact that they are completely unbalanced.



AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.11 16:58:00 - [88]
 

Each time someone is jammed by a Falcon, come here and cry, cry & mama-cry.

Why those people dont cry when an Arazu scramble him at 70 Km ? Or Rapier freeze their ship to 0.1 m/s ?. Or Curse perma-dry your capacitor ?

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.11 17:26:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Forumz Warrior

Not at all. Obviously I'm mistaken about the low slot being overloaded, but indeed my setup uses 2 ECCM. You can see it here:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1018093

At the time I was being primaried, I just overloaded the entire bottom rack, since it's just a hardner, ECCM and a DC, so I assumed it was overloaded. Regardless, a falcon having a 22% chance to jam a dual ECCM'd BS is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

Thanks for enforcing the fact that they are completely unbalanced.



So fitting 2 EMP shield hardners to a raven shouldn't result in over 25% of EMP damage coming through?

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.03.11 17:52:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2009 17:52:14
Falcon is fine ,get used to it.


-Liang Nuren


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