open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: What Have We Done!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2009.03.13 14:21:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
ai stuff


Ok just starting studying AI so still a noob in this area but I have a couple thoughts on this.

First off this list is probably similar to what many fc's do, as most fc's will already have decided before battle what targets go down first (falcons, stealth bombers logistics). There would be some additional commands like trying to orbit up close to the sniper etc. but I think the list do sufficient for now, improving it so it could react better to surprises the enemy brings would be good but not necessary.

However I think there could be room to add AI in, but rather than going for individual AI create a AI for an entire faction that takes the logs of pve battles analyzes them and uses that to update or create a new list of actions. If possible you could also give this the option of changing some ship's around so if they know they are going up against mostly missile users in a specific region the faction AI would increase the number of ships with defender missiles in that area. Or if everyone is using heavy tanked scorpions as they are always primaried it would lower the scorpion on the list of primary targets.


The point I was trying to make was that calling what has been done AI is not correct. Quoting the Wikpedia page on AI doesn't make it correct either.

What has been implemented is a reflexive agent without a learning mechanism. That's not AI, that's a script. Without learning, without some (automated) feed-back-loop it simply is not AI. I've said several times that I think that's a good start. But it's only a start at AI although hopefully it will get things rolling.

However, there's a lot more that can be done. Note that I never said that a 'true AI' should be implemented, certainly not for this expansion. I don't think there is a need for it at this point either. But, as already pointed out, there still is a lot that can be done. And what can be done should be focussed on making the NPC cheat less, preferably not at all. A second thing that can be done is to incorporate a learning mechanism. That means that the NPCs will be adaptive, changing their behaviour according to what players will throw against them. This means less static scripts to write and more evolved behaviour by the NPCs, and basically, AI. Building on that, one can write AI that makes operational and strategic choices, instead of just tactical decisions. In other words, automatically generated NPC roaming gangs and NPC faction warfare to get tangled up in. Combine that with adaptive behaviour and you've got self-generating content. Think about it!

There are a lot of people, including game-developers, who say that this needs lots of resources, and is too difficult. They mostly point to the fact that not many games have this time of AI (not a 'true AI' mind you). Both reasons are completely nonsense.

There is plenty of AI out there that doesn't need a 'deep blue' super-computer and still does an adequate job. Also, AI is only difficult for game-developers because it is something they don't have much experience with (no wonder). The fact is that a lot of AI researchers would love to work with game-developers to help out in this aspect which can provide a clear and understandable way (methodology) to implement AI that is both adjustable and controllable. In fact, beyond pride, and the 'not-done-here' syndrome, there is no compelling reason why AI shouldn't be used in games, and especially in MMOs. In fact, I know of dozens of papers on how this can be done. There are also no financial hurdles either because there are scores of funding bodies willing to pick-up the tab for AI research within actual games.

In short, what has been implemented is nice, I enjoy it, but it certainly is not AI. And no amount of referencing and marketing can make it so. Let's hope this doesn't end here.

Patripassion
Posted - 2009.03.14 11:17:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 11/03/2009 05:11:03
Originally by: Patripassion
*buffs lowsec and empire*

*is surprised at vitriol from the nullsec players that have been completely ignored*


0.0 rats got buffed Wink

so I'm used to seeing at max 950k bs and saw a few 1.1 bs and got excited, and a dread spawn in my first round (ammo and tag).... the rats overall blow fat chunks of *insert not very nice things here*

just did 26ish mil over the last 3 hours, 12.5 of that was in the first hour. Confused

I would rather go run empire level 4s....


In the best parts of 0.0 you would still rather be running missions. CCP's idea of buffing lowsec is probably minor tweaks for crappy truesec --doing nothing for the real 0.0 players that have fought over semivaluable swaths of space for years in the hopes that some day CCP would actually make it more valuable than running L4s in empire. Really, they should add capital spawns to the belts in low truesec.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.14 18:41:00 - [63]
 

Save all the loot and burn through spawns faster/chain the better ones and I normally see good returns in 00.

Patripassion
Posted - 2009.03.14 20:07:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Save all the loot and burn through spawns faster/chain the better ones and I normally see good returns in 00.


Those who know nothing should say nothing.

I'm hearing about a lot of belt rats warping out of belts and so forth unless you put a point on them, belt ratting is even less tenable in deep 0.0 because of this patch. How thrilling!

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.03.15 07:41:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
In short, what has been implemented is nice, I enjoy it, but it certainly is not AI. And no amount of referencing and marketing can make it so. Let's hope this doesn't end here.


It does meet the common definition of a GAME's AI. And it does 'learn' in its lifetime (which, unfortunately, is only a few minutes). It does learn what the best targets are, but that's the extent of it, as, well, it's usually dead by then.. ;-) Seriously though, it is a huge improvement, and the unpredictability of it is enough to add greatly to the experience. Does it meet the scientific definition of AI? No, of course not. Does it need to? No, each entity is not around long enough for it to matter. Does it meet the game design definition of AI? yep, and does okay at that, though, as always, there's always room for improvement. I certainly would like to see cap warfare enter into the equation.

CCP Gangleri


Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.15 15:00:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Patripassion


Those who know nothing should say nothing.

I'm hearing about a lot of belt rats warping out of belts and so forth unless you put a point on them, belt ratting is even less tenable in deep 0.0 because of this patch. How thrilling!


We did not change the spawn mechanic at all. The NPCs always had the possibility to 'run away' we didn't increase that chance or make them susceptible to warp scrambling.

Rat spawns in 0.0 were also affected by the balancing of rat spawns in low sec, but the difference will be significantly less there obviously.

Lance85
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.03.16 11:53:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
One of the most talked about changes coming in EVE Online: Apocrypha, are the new Sleeper NPC race. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo have been fired at these hardcore wormhole rats as players have toughened up and taken them on. CCP Gangleri's blog fills us in with more details about the work Team Epic has done on Sleepers. You can read about it here.


So what about the whole walking in stations thing?

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.17 02:39:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 17/03/2009 02:39:38
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Patripassion


Those who know nothing should say nothing.

I'm hearing about a lot of belt rats warping out of belts and so forth unless you put a point on them, belt ratting is even less tenable in deep 0.0 because of this patch. How thrilling!


We did not change the spawn mechanic at all. The NPCs always had the possibility to 'run away' we didn't increase that chance or make them susceptible to warp scrambling.

Rat spawns in 0.0 were also affected by the balancing of rat spawns in low sec, but the difference will be significantly less there obviously.


errm, I heard that chaining got eliminated, I would consider that a MAJOR change to the spawn mechanics and ratting.

that and rats warping in, looked rather cool the first time, after that watching them land and waiting to target them just got annoying.

Oh well ratting in Geminate was ****ty anyways, if it wasnt for being -10 I would have just and gone to run empire level 4s (0.0 faction standings shot to ****, and not so friendly with anyone who controls npc 0.0), as well that seems to be what ccp wants us to do now.

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2009.03.17 12:04:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Patripassion
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Save all the loot and burn through spawns faster/chain the better ones and I normally see good returns in 00.


Those who know nothing should say nothing.

I'm hearing about a lot of belt rats warping out of belts and so forth unless you put a point on them, belt ratting is even less tenable in deep 0.0 because of this patch. How thrilling!


its been like that for ages from my knowledge. I freaked the first time I saw it happening !


Pages: 1 2 [3]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only