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Crimsona Endarius
Posted - 2009.03.18 18:40:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Kalenia Rostok
Somewhere I read that only 25% of the minerals are actually mined in Eve, the rest comes from melting of loot and the drones (mining with guns).

Something is very wrong with pye and nox atm, there's no reason for them to be as cheap as the more common mineral above them... CCP? Do something :P.


And that was 40%, a major thread somewhere either here or market discussion. But even that figure wasn't fully correct.

AmyLeigh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.03.18 22:35:00 - [62]
 

I mine pretty much everything, Laughing

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.03.19 16:24:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Asuka Smith on 19/03/2009 16:27:56
Here is a good example for everyone who cannot understand how mining works. Two types of miners: Production miners and profit miners.

If you are a production miner you might think to yourself "I have perfect hulk skills, I might as well mine all the minerals I need myself!" If you think that you are a fool in the strongest degree. Here is an example to explain (using fictional numbers)

Tritanium can be mined at a rate of $100 per hour.
Pyerite can be mined at $60 per hour.
Mexallon can be mined at $75 per hour.
Nocxium can be mined at a rate of $80 per hour.
Isogen can be mined at $120 per hour.
Zydrine can be mined at $400 per hour.
Megacyte can be mined at $350 per hour.

Now, you could mine all the different types yourself and make a nice shiny battleship, for simplicities sake let us say you need 4 hours worth of each mineral to complete your ship. That means you will have earned $4340 if you mine all the minerals for your ship yourself, and then let's say that the markup for finished goods (the completed ship) is worth 20% more than the raw minerals, which puts your total profit at time of sale on the market at $5208, and it would take 28 hours to mine all the ore.

Now let us see what would happen if you only mined the most VALUABLE ore and bought the rest you would need off the market. That means mining Zydrine in 0.0 in the case of this example, I only need to earn $4340 worth of mined minerals and then I can go sell what I have and buy what I need. It would only take 11 hours of Zydrine mining to have enough money/minerals to build the same ship that took 28 hours worth of mining if I got every part of it myself.

In conclusion, anyone who mines ANYTHING besides the single most valuable ore to which they have access is an idiot. And to the people who say "b-b-but if we all mined Veldspar there would be no other minerals and the price would crash on Veldspar!" You are also stupid, because when Veldspar crashes and the other ones go up you just switch. It is not like you have to mine one ore for the rest of your life, you should check the prices before each session to make sure you make maximum profit.

addendum: I think that maybe 60% of ore comes from module reprocessing anyways so the prices cannot swing that far, and there will be plenty of rubes of play "to have fun" and mistakenly think that mining the wrong ore is more fun than mining the right ore so I doubt that prices fluctuate at all as a result of everyone who reads this thread adopting a policy of "make the most money possible, duh".

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2009.03.19 17:06:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 19/03/2009 16:27:56
Here is a good example for everyone who cannot understand how mining works. Two types of miners: Production miners and profit miners.

If you are a production miner you might think to yourself "I have perfect hulk skills, I might as well mine all the minerals I need myself!" If you think that you are a fool in the strongest degree. Here is an example to explain (using fictional numbers)

Tritanium can be mined at a rate of $100 per hour.
Pyerite can be mined at $60 per hour.
Mexallon can be mined at $75 per hour.
Nocxium can be mined at a rate of $80 per hour.
Isogen can be mined at $120 per hour.
Zydrine can be mined at $400 per hour.
Megacyte can be mined at $350 per hour.

Now, you could mine all the different types yourself and make a nice shiny battleship, for simplicities sake let us say you need 4 hours worth of each mineral to complete your ship. That means you will have earned $4340 if you mine all the minerals for your ship yourself, and then let's say that the markup for finished goods (the completed ship) is worth 20% more than the raw minerals, which puts your total profit at time of sale on the market at $5208, and it would take 28 hours to mine all the ore.

Now let us see what would happen if you only mined the most VALUABLE ore and bought the rest you would need off the market. That means mining Zydrine in 0.0 in the case of this example, I only need to earn $4340 worth of mined minerals and then I can go sell what I have and buy what I need. It would only take 11 hours of Zydrine mining to have enough money/minerals to build the same ship that took 28 hours worth of mining if I got every part of it myself.

In conclusion, anyone who mines ANYTHING besides the single most valuable ore to which they have access is an idiot. And to the people who say "b-b-but if we all mined Veldspar there would be no other minerals and the price would crash on Veldspar!" You are also stupid, because when Veldspar crashes and the other ones go up you just switch. It is not like you have to mine one ore for the rest of your life, you should check the prices before each session to make sure you make maximum profit.

addendum: I think that maybe 60% of ore comes from module reprocessing anyways so the prices cannot swing that far, and there will be plenty of rubes of play "to have fun" and mistakenly think that mining the wrong ore is more fun than mining the right ore so I doubt that prices fluctuate at all as a result of everyone who reads this thread adopting a policy of "make the most money possible, duh".



Unfortunately it's not so simple,

For example what happens when you get to vast swatches of space where there are only pebbles. Then you are indeed better off mining the less valueable ores simply because you spend less time moving around. And yes you can move to more valuable systems, but then you need to value that time into your calculations. You can even have a big enough mining group where you can strip out an entire system per op. etc and so forth. Occam was a fool.

So, to keep it simple, isk/hr is not solely ore value / hr. There are many, many more factors included.


Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.03.19 18:37:00 - [65]
 

Mining valuable pebbles is certainly the correct course of action. I find that I can reposition myself easily to continue mining a new 'roid before the currently targeted one dies. In almost every ABC system the pebbles are tiny but overlap ever so slightly, so you can always have one-two targeted and sometimes many more. And even if I had to spend 30% extra time moving around with no asteroid targeted (which is a ridiculously high about) ABCs would still be worth more than 3x anything else.

Sushi Chef
Posted - 2009.03.19 18:55:00 - [66]
 

I find it more fun to eat the whole belt instead of picking at the little bits of valuable ore. Besides, my corp doesn't need 100,000,000 Trit, it needs all minerals, because it's a production corp.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.03.19 19:15:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Sushi Chef
I find it more fun to eat the whole belt instead of picking at the little bits of valuable ore. Besides, my corp doesn't need 100,000,000 Trit, it needs all minerals, because it's a production corp.


You ought to read the post three above from yours (my long one) to explain why you are an idiot.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.19 19:25:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Mining valuable pebbles is certainly the correct course of action. .


you cant mine pebles, pebles have no ore in them and dont even show up on the scanner

as for the other, it honeslty depends, where I was mining you would have to move 2-3 systems to find a belt with Veild, which is why I ended up doing mission mining.


Ashen Angel
Minmatar
Scarey Contractors
Posted - 2009.03.20 01:47:00 - [69]
 

hmm... try this one keeping it in empire:

isk per hour mining only Veld in empire with time factored in for movement (in belts, between belts, between systems)

isk per hour stripping belts, with time factored in for movement


See which one actually is more profitable for a miner. More often than not even in quiet little corners of empire it's going to be strip the belts clean.


Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.03.20 02:37:00 - [70]
 

Depends on logistic capability, if you can mine and refine in the same system and can fly a freighter then it will be better to fill the freighter and AFK to Jita (no one is going to gank your freighter to haul away a ton of trit).

AFK freighter to Jita while you work/sleep takes 0 time. Hell, even if you do not want to do AFK your freighter you can put up sell orders at the nearest high population station (if you put up a big enough sell order people will come from across the region).

Sushi Chef
Posted - 2009.03.20 02:54:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Originally by: Sushi Chef
I find it more fun to eat the whole belt instead of picking at the little bits of valuable ore. Besides, my corp doesn't need 100,000,000 Trit, it needs all minerals, because it's a production corp.


You ought to read the post three above from yours (my long one) to explain why you are an idiot.


Maybe you ought to learn manners and stop being a rude smacktard.

I believe in my post I said I find it fun, meaning in my practiced playstyle and comfort zone, I enjoy sitting in a belt with big rocks and eating the whole belt for the sake of accomplishment. I have alts and use miners and an Orca, this is prolly better profit for me, and I also don't like warping into belts with my horde of miners and picking out just the veld.

Also by selling to my corp at below market rates it will help it's production, by supplying to the alliance at cheaper pricing instead of buying higher priced minerals on the market.

Laura Lexx
Posted - 2009.03.20 11:03:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Nimathos
All these complicated answers to just one question.
Why are all the hulks mining plagioclase ?

Simple! Our corporation (See EveWiki: Swarm of Locusts) mines in lowsec to produce all sorts of things.
We have enough veldspar, scordite, omber, hedbergite, except the minerals that give Mexallon.

Note: Plagioclase gives 256 Mexallon, 256 tritanium, 512 pyerite.
This is why we often head up in highsec to do mining missions ( or maybe for other corps in public belts) to farm our mexallon and have it transported down to 0.0 again.

And i dont believe that we are the only corp that needs to get back up in highsec to mine mexallon.




Not what you should do actually. What you SHOULD do is ALWAYS mine the most profitable ore, refine it and sell the quantities you don't need and buy the minerals you actually need.

If you think about it, this WILL get you more for less in the long run. Every person in you corp will effectively earn more money per hour of work.


Ashen Angel
Minmatar
Scarey Contractors
Posted - 2009.03.20 11:35:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Laura Lexx
Originally by: Nimathos
All these complicated answers to just one question.
Why are all the hulks mining plagioclase ?

Simple! Our corporation (See EveWiki: Swarm of Locusts) mines in lowsec to produce all sorts of things.
We have enough veldspar, scordite, omber, hedbergite, except the minerals that give Mexallon.

Note: Plagioclase gives 256 Mexallon, 256 tritanium, 512 pyerite.
This is why we often head up in highsec to do mining missions ( or maybe for other corps in public belts) to farm our mexallon and have it transported down to 0.0 again.

And i dont believe that we are the only corp that needs to get back up in highsec to mine mexallon.




Not what you should do actually. What you SHOULD do is ALWAYS mine the most profitable ore, refine it and sell the quantities you don't need and buy the minerals you actually need.

If you think about it, this WILL get you more for less in the long run. Every person in you corp will effectively earn more money per hour of work.




Most profitable isn't always going to be veldspar...

Looking at just the mineral value and ignoring the logistics in gathering the raw ore means you can be losing money just mining veld (and maybe scordite)

If you spend 4 hours moving between belts and systems to gather 30mil in veld... rather than spend those 4 hours stripping belts in one system for 60mil in mixed ores... your focus on the most profitable ignoring logistics resulted in lost isk.

isk/hr is what matters... and that includes the logistics of moving your ships!


Ms Delerium
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:03:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Sushi Chef
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Originally by: Sushi Chef
I find it more fun to eat the whole belt instead of picking at the little bits of valuable ore. Besides, my corp doesn't need 100,000,000 Trit, it needs all minerals, because it's a production corp.


You ought to read the post three above from yours (my long one) to explain why you are an idiot.


Maybe you ought to learn manners and stop being a rude smacktard.

I believe in my post I said I find it fun, meaning in my practiced playstyle and comfort zone, I enjoy sitting in a belt with big rocks and eating the whole belt for the sake of accomplishment. I have alts and use miners and an Orca, this is prolly better profit for me, and I also don't like warping into belts with my horde of miners and picking out just the veld.

Also by selling to my corp at below market rates it will help it's production, by supplying to the alliance at cheaper pricing instead of buying higher priced minerals on the market.


you still dont get it...

besides the "roleplaying" aspect that you seem to enjoy (and its fine), if you search for max profit you still need to mine the veldspar. Provided you are in highsec of course.

here is the error:

Quote:
Also by selling to my corp at below market rates it will help it's production, by supplying to the alliance at cheaper pricing instead of buying higher priced minerals on the market.


in which case your corporation is getting an advantage at the expense of yourself losing some serious isk Laughing Laughing

and you lose more than they gain. Its a fact, veldspar gives more isk/minute than plagioclase and pyroxeres and no discussion is accepted on this.

Liz Laser
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:58:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Liz Laser on 21/04/2009 20:59:51
Originally by: Ms Delerium
but it would be cheaper for you to mine veldspar, sell to market, buy plagio (or whatever) and then manufacture.

am i wrong??


If you don't want to get into hauling it around, you face the fact that your trit sales may help some other manufacturer set up shop and compete. And your mineral buy orders may attract miners who strip EVERYTHING so that you can't find veldspar anymore.

If I could assure that all my mineral buy and sell orders were fulfilled ONLY by passing freighters and not people who stick around, your strategy would be a sound one.

In practice, that isn't how things have tended to work out for me. My old hangouts got too crowded with other miners and manufacturers. Now I mine all the high sec stuff myself (and rely on loot drop reprocessing for zydrine and megacyte). Higher selling prices from lack of competition in my new homes has outweighed any "opportunity cost".

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:06:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Induc on 21/04/2009 21:07:04
Even though many hide behind the RP and "I like cleaning the whole belt" excuses I'm pretty sure that in most cases it really just comes down to laziness.

If everyone mined veldspar trit prices would go down, making manufacturers (I bet most buys the trit rather than mines it themselves) very happy. In turn ship prices will go down making mission runners and PVP'ers very happy too.


So basically, mine veldspar and everyone wins! Smile ... I think...

ThrashPower
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:48:00 - [77]
 

I'm one of the plagiclase miners, I also mine pyroxeres and scordite. I warp to my belt, and activate lasers on the closest astroids, then I tab into Battlefield 2 and own some guys while flying a heli. After a while of pwning I usually get teamkilled by some idiot who for some reason maneuvers his airplane through my heli, and I tab back to my hulk and either activate my lasers on some new 'roids or warp to station.

Lazy != Stupid

I do understand that people wish to educate others into mining veldspar, as there is in fact a great deal of players who does not know it gives the most buck for the bang. I must say that these people are not likely to read forums or this thread tho.

Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.22 09:42:00 - [78]
 

Too many factors. Plag might be working out for them. Specifically my mining op's just involve nuking the belts. Any minerals are good minerals, and as long as the cargo hold is packed - its money in the bank.

If its Macro miners, chances are they're locking onto Plagioclase and Pyroxeres because the Veldspar is usually the first to go. I know in a lot of places where Veld is cleared out mere hours after DT. The next best thing to mine then would be a bit of Azure Plag or Viscous Pyro.

Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
Posted - 2009.04.22 11:09:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Psi Draconis
Originally by: Ms Delerium
I wonder, why 99% hulks mining plagioclase when there are big amounts of veldspar over the belt.

And veldspar ir, afaik, the most profitable low-end ore.


Stupid people. About 99% of the people are stupid. CCP clearly has success with this world simulation, humans are as stupid in eve than they are in real life.


This post gets the Polly Prissypantz seal of approval.

You, sir, win the internets.

Delkin
Amarr
Posted - 2009.04.22 12:08:00 - [80]
 


Thinking about this and the other thread about the percent of minerals from mods, It all comes back to ccp tinkering, I used to sell passive targetter bpo's was pretty good trade, ccp took a dim view and made them nowhere near as good.

CCP changed the rules on cargo in ships being carried in a carrier, other changes have been made such as changing some starbase items to items being sold by npc. The removal of shuttles and other items has not only lifted the cap on trit but has made it the most sought after as most builds require vast amounts of ta da "Tritanium" no longer can you just dock up buy and reprocess and then compress for transport the amount of minerals bought from the market this was must have been huge.

At one time Omber/Kernite was something to search for now you pass it by heading for veld, the push to make the Rorqual useful and 0.0 politics has made ccp tinker with every other player work around. I would love to see the figure for reprocessing when I used to sell the compression bpo's (passive targetters) or strip miners as I guess this would be much higher than 40%.

I do when I have to mine all in reach not just veld if my beams can reach then its going, If there is some veld out of reach i wont move till i cleared the section I am on, perhaps the op comment was another miner who will get to that ore in a minute type, sometimes its just theres no Mex/pye on the local market and you need to mine another ore.

We have many mining veld if its there now because the price is good, till ccp sort out insurance (another mineral cap) and the build requirements, no way will a gang of miner head to low sec and try mining veld in paperthin ships which drop good loot, mining with guns is all wrong but with it being "The Drone Regions" cant see how else ccp could work that, add a bounty and stop all drones dropping alloys but then it would not make sense, Glossy Opulent and Plush was always a good earner when you got some since the composition change its still good but pale in comparison.


To the op, sometimes you come home and you just mine, only a miner will understandWink

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.22 23:49:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Sushi Chef
...

I believe in my post I said I find it fun, meaning in my practiced playstyle and comfort zone, I enjoy sitting in a belt with big rocks and eating the whole belt for the sake of accomplishment. ...


Fun should definitely come into it.

I mined pyrox today because I was bored mining veld out of Break Their Will 9 days out of the last two weeks.

One time I stripped a belt bare with just my retriever and an Itty 3 (barring the 2-3 times a hulk stopped in, filled the hold, and left) -- just to see if I could do it. It took me from 8am to 7pm and I didn't want to look at a rock for 3 days.

But the feeling of accomplishment (and my corp-mates jokes about how the station had developed a list towards my hanger), was worth the doing.

Even in our real lives we don't always choose our jobs based strictly on the paycheck. In a game the fun should be even more of a priority. Very Happy

asx rasx
Minmatar
Wraith Metals Corporation
Just Die Already Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.23 07:33:00 - [82]
 

I take great pride in seeing belts wiped clean and my cargo holds overflowing with every ore in sight :D

Amond Starsmoke
Posted - 2009.04.23 16:35:00 - [83]
 

Its true that there are more things to consider than just straight Isk/m3, but this is the most significant factor. While you can come up with hypothetical situations all day ("what if I'm mining in a highsec system that is 100 jumps from a station? hmm? what then, Mr. Bigshot?"), in our given REAL set of circumstances, ISK/M3 is "The Sh*t" for decision-making.

I can see an argument for mining scordite with your veldspar based on travel-time concerns because it is still worth ~80% of the value. If you find travelling between belts often to be a headache, then you may want to sit a bit longer and mine some scordite. I dig that.

Plagioclase, though, is worth about 66% of equivalent m3 of Veldspar. So unless you think travelling is taking up 20 minutes/hr, you have no reason to mine it other than RP or extreme laziness. If you are that lazy, you are too lazy to read this far into a thread. Also, for the more sophisticated amongst you, you shouldn't be offended by the assertions made against you in this thread; if you are just mining while you do homework or look after the kids, then this thread is not about you. This thread, IMO, is about hardnosed miners that legitimately think they profit more from mining every roid when that is soooo clearly not the case.

The arguments based on competition ("If i sell my trit, I'm helping the enemy. I'll mine it all myself, thank-you-very-much") Are pretty irrelevant in our real set of circumstances. This argument only holds if you live in very isolated space where the minerals would not otherwise be readily available to your enemy, but are somehow available to you. Also, most people in this case would still find a good reason to sell the trit since you would clearly have great bargaining power here ("If he wants my trit, hes gonna have to pay twice as much for it!"). In High-sec if you don't sell them trit, someone else will anyway. Population is too dense for this to be a concern.

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:13:00 - [84]
 

It is possible that for the sake of simplified/quicker logistics that at some times and places it might be more economical to mine what you need.

Ryan Owen
Posted - 2009.04.24 02:45:00 - [85]
 

It is also very possible that all the indignation over mining anything other than Veldspar is just an effort to make more people mine it, so in turn reducing Trit prices down.

Come to think of it, if you do bring the whole logic to the real world, question will always be - why keep, say, a shoe factory if you can do more money out of, say, computers? Logistics and the hassle of moving from one type of plant to another aside, it may just be that you're more knowledgeable about shoes than computers, feel a sense of accomplishment by manufacturing shoes, or thinks the computer market's big profit will stabilize soon while shoes will always have demand. Not to mention that somebody's gotta do shoes, and you're comfortable being the one to provide that. All of these have an equivalent logic in EVE, for better or worse.

In other words, you can't just shield yourself behind the ISK/h factor alone, and you can't force-feed it to everyone. Some will realize where's the bigger profit is, some will not, and everything works exactly because not everyone gets it.

Note: Don't make any wrong assumption, I do mine Veld most of the time for the profit it gives, even when I need materials for modules and shipbuilding. It's just that I'm not naive enough to think this is the end-all be-all of anything. And yeah, the word to be used here is "naive". It may not be "naive" as in "ignorant", but it's still naive to think that everybody will stick to a single piece of the whole logic.

Mystafyre
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.24 06:33:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Pwett
Originally by: Sidrat Flush
The question should be "Why is tritanium the most profitable mineral in empire?"



The answer is Capital Ships.
QFT

Amond Starsmoke
Posted - 2009.04.24 12:48:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ryan Owen
It is also very possible that all the indignation over mining anything other than Veldspar is just an effort to make more people mine it, so in turn reducing Trit prices down.

Come to think of it, if you do bring the whole logic to the real world, question will always be - why keep, say, a shoe factory if you can do more money out of, say, computers? Logistics and the hassle of moving from one type of plant to another aside, it may just be that you're more knowledgeable about shoes than computers, feel a sense of accomplishment by manufacturing shoes, or thinks the computer market's big profit will stabilize soon while shoes will always have demand. Not to mention that somebody's gotta do shoes, and you're comfortable being the one to provide that. All of these have an equivalent logic in EVE, for better or worse.

In other words, you can't just shield yourself behind the ISK/h factor alone, and you can't force-feed it to everyone. Some will realize where's the bigger profit is, some will not, and everything works exactly because not everyone gets it.

Note: Don't make any wrong assumption, I do mine Veld most of the time for the profit it gives, even when I need materials for modules and shipbuilding. It's just that I'm not naive enough to think this is the end-all be-all of anything. And yeah, the word to be used here is "naive". It may not be "naive" as in "ignorant", but it's still naive to think that everybody will stick to a single piece of the whole logic.


Your analogy applies more to manufacturers where a specialized knowledge of a product and the market for that product gives you an advantage that you would forfeit if you decided to move to another product. Real Life way to fix this: hire competent management for the new division!

When mining, your analogy is weak. It takes no different skillset to mine one ore over another, other than perhaps the small difference you need to do in your head when determining how much ore is left in a roid, deciding when to cutoff a cycle. Skills and assets are almost completely transferrable, whereas in RL manufacturing your property, plant, and equipment is often far too specialized to adapt quickly enough for an organizational re-engineering to be practicable.

This is not to say it hasnt been done irl though.... There are countless examples. IRL is very much ADAPT OR DIE. EVE is too, but its alot easier in EVE.

Jon Elleder
Gallente
NephTEK
Posted - 2009.04.25 23:15:00 - [88]
 

Quote:
It takes no different skillset to mine one ore over another


Ehm? And the Ore Processing skills needed for T2 crystals?


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