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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.08 19:48:00 - [31]
 

My little bro just messaged me through steam to let me know they have a UT3 free download this weekend. May be why the server is going crazy. It gave me the server is too full message but on my third attempt it looked like I got through.

Looks like I'm gonna have something new to play around with for a little while.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2009.03.08 20:27:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Rawr Cristina

Oh, and those games that come with install limits which don't get advertised until after you've bought them. Kind of defeats the point of having Steam at all... Confused


Actually I think there is remark about those when you look at that game page in steam. Not sure about them all ofc, but those I have looked (X3 and Spore for example) have line in the information 'Third party DRM' or something on those lines. As a principle I myself will not buy those games with draconinan DRM (like install 5 times and then rebuy the game) and I always read up about game in internet before actually buying it.


Yes, my point was they didn't have that little tidbit of information for either X3:Terran Conflict or STALKER: Clear Skies until after it was released. So everyone who pre-ordered those games (including me) had to deal with it. Sad

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.03.08 23:39:00 - [33]
 

And not only that, but when i updated my Steam some few days ago, then my Norwegian language got really ****ed up by that update. The Norwegian language got translated to PolishEvil or Very Mad.

Oh well, back to English atm then heh.

Calvin Firenze
Minmatar
Caeli Veredictum
Posted - 2009.03.09 01:21:00 - [34]
 

After all the annoyances of installation, I finally got it up and running with no problems after that. So I'm retracting my total condemnation of Steam, but I have some small bit of criticism.

If the server is too busy, people should be allowed to install a game they bought in a store. In my case, I bought the copy at gamestop, not off their servers. I still had to wait a good 30 minutes before I could start the installation process. Everyone knows that when you get home with a brand new game, you don't want to wait an hour and a half to even play it.

Unfortunately, their list of non Steam games you can register is rather small. Linkage I found this pretty unfortunate, I thought for a minute that I could add all my games and never worry about having game discs all over the place. I was wrong, but I'm sure this is a licensing issue so its not a big deal to me.

Bish Ounen
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.03.09 02:06:00 - [35]
 

You people PAY for offline games?

Seriously?


WTF is WRONG with you people?????


YARRRR!!

P'uck
Posted - 2009.03.09 09:30:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: P''uck on 09/03/2009 09:57:48
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
You people still haven't figured out that you can play in offline mode? I've got a number of my steam games on my laptop for on the go playing.
Originally by: P'uck
Reading comprehension ftw.... For most, possibly all games you buy from valve, ****ing steam needs to be in online mode to INSTALL that ****ing thing.

I suggest you read Brea's comment then remind me about reading comp again.


you still need to use steam to play a game in offline mode, that's all she mentioned, so yeah, still, reading comprehension.

edit: and there are still people without internet access, those couldnt even think about (legitimately) installing any game sold on steam? I mean WTF? I for one have two computers here I don't plan on getting online, ever.

There is something that needs to be said about steam: it's the SAME annoying DRM crap that other companies are trying to pull on us. I'm ashamed people accepted it and let valve succeed with it. Boycotting/pirating hl2 (iirc that was the game that allowed them to force it on us) would have been the only way to go.

BUT!

You gotta give them credit, because they are actively trying to design the platform in a way the user really gets something back for it. there IS a lot of convenience in several functions of steam.

BUT!

When stuff like this happens, you know, servers not being able to handle requests for even such small amounts of time like 30 minutes, this delicate balance between convience and annoyance gets tipped in the not so favorable direction. Forcing people to go online for a single player game is just wrong, and there is no way to argue around that.

Ratchman
Posted - 2009.03.09 12:13:00 - [37]
 

Steam is the best DRM service out there, and they don't tend to suffer many problems. In my book, it runs well, although I still have some issues with the whole idealogy (such as the assumption that everyone has broadband now). However, at least with Steam the service is reliable.

If you want an example of bad DRM, just look to the SecureROM that EA uses. This installs itself on your systems and secretes itself away where the majority of PC users will not find it. It cannot be uninstalled (not without IT expertise), and constantly runs, even when you have no EA software on your PC, eating up valuable resources.

In addition to this, you only rent the game, as you have a limited number of activations. With Steam, you have a logon, so you can effectively play your games on any PC, but SecureROM only allows 3-5 installations (and this may seem enough until you consider that minor changes to system hardware can count as an activation). Then you have to ring up a premium rate hotline, spend a fortune on that, before being required to prove who you are and that you did actually buy the game.

It's telling that this has had such bad press that EA do not announce whether SecureROM is on the software until after it has been released. This demonstrates they know it is perceived as a negative thing. It hasn't even worked, as Spore famously became the most copied game in history on its release date.

The Italian government has declared SecureROM as a virus, and there are legal proceedings being adopted in many countries, and it even violates the EULA, because the package never states it is being installed on your PC. Nobody ever reads the EULA, but the fact that it has ignored this is illegal.

Steam, I have no problem with. SureROM, and by extension, anything that EA release, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge pole. It's lost them money from me already, as I would have bought Mass Effect, Spore and Red Alert 3, and there are future titles that I would have bought, but now won't

Electronic Arts are struggling in the current economic climate. When they treat their customers with such draconian measures and assume their guilty of piracy until proven innocent, it's hardly surprising their not selling so much. Yes, they still have the console market, but they wanted to employ this kind of DRM on those platforms as well. As long as they persist this stupid form of anti-piracy, it will eventually cost them the company. And admission of failure might be seen as a failure, but it's preferable to losing the business.

By comparison, Steam has had relatively few issues, and is a sterling service. I would encourage you to boycott all EA titles, though. Even the console ones. And those that they have issued via Steam (as I haven't confirmed whether they are SecureROM free yet).

P'uck
Posted - 2009.03.09 12:29:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: P''uck on 09/03/2009 12:33:32
Why, btw, is everybody tying this number of installations thing to securom? Securom is a pretty old (and annoying) copy protection thing, that never used to do anything but to check for an original CD. Or is securerom in fact something else than securom?

But yeah, the hiding and not uninstalling part is pretty much true (just like almost any other copy protection driver, btw), but I'm pretty sure this number of installations thing is not really a securom thing. You can probably catch that disease in various ways Wink

Originally by: Ratchman
The Italian government has declared SecureROM as a virus

As much as I agree with them, they can go **** themselves. They've passed laws that say they cannot be prosecuted for crimes they commited Laughing

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.09 14:17:00 - [39]
 

Why in gods name would anybody want to be forced to contact an unneccesary 3rd party server just to play an offline game you paid 50$ for?

Pure crap imo, and all the while steam is collecting information about howmany times you wipe your ass and such.

I "downloaded" Empire Total War and had 0 problems. I even had a 3mb/s download speed, top that Steam!

Ratchman
Posted - 2009.03.09 14:38:00 - [40]
 

SecureROM has changed a fair bit over the years, and there is a limited activations thing tied to it, although EA did update it from 3 to 5 for some of their games. That was the extent of their compromise with the public.

SecureROM has been evolving over a number of years and I believe it started in the audio sector. You may remember a couple of years back, there were a number of music CDs that refused to work in any CD player. This was due to copy protection, and it took several companies to the brink of bankruptcy. I bought a couple of these CDs and found I couldn't play them at all. What was laughable, is that I was able to rip them to a file and encode them to MP3, but I couldn't play the CD in the way it was intended. I took them back and got a refund. I later noticed that the same CDs were on sale for about two quid just a few weeks later. There were quite a few big name artists that this affected as well.

The music industry learned from their mistakes, and have relaxed on the copy protection and DRM issue. They are still pursuing it, and I don't blame them for protecting their investments, but the initial attempts were an unmitigated disaster.

Piracy is bad for any kind of media. It means lost profits that could be invested in producing more of that media. The trouble is, you cannot go overboard and treat your customer base with suspicion and assume they are all criminals, treating their customers property as their own (by installing surreptitious software and monitoring their activity) and effectively forcing people to rent for the same price that they used to own the same product for.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.09 15:26:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: P'uck

you still need to use steam to play a game in offline mode, that's all she mentioned, so yeah, still, reading comprehension.


Strange, I was playing HL2 and Dawn of war yesterday evening in offline mode. I didn't need steam to fire those up. I simply clicked play in offline mode and it played in offline mode. Didn't even need to connect for steam to read (which is good because my fathers place has dial up) so I stand by my original statement. Not my fault you other people can't comprehend the ability to play in offline mode.

Originally by: P'uck
edit: and there are still people without internet access, those couldnt even think about (legitimately) installing any game sold on steam? I mean WTF? I for one have two computers here I don't plan on getting online, ever.


There are plenty of other games that do not require steam. It's not my problem that some people can't and/or refuse to upgrade to play what they want. I can't play Halo 2 because it requires Vista. Oh well boohoo, I'll find some other FPS. If you wanna play the game then you gotta have the requirements to. Hell if those internet-less people have a laptop they can go to a cyber cafe for a couple of hours. Just because they have no connection does not mean nobody else does either.

Originally by: P'uck
There is something that needs to be said about steam: it's the SAME annoying DRM crap that other companies are trying to pull on us. I'm ashamed people accepted it and let valve succeed with it. Boycotting/pirating hl2 (iirc that was the game that allowed them to force it on us) would have been the only way to go.

BUT!

You gotta give them credit, because they are actively trying to design the platform in a way the user really gets something back for it. there IS a lot of convenience in several functions of steam.

BUT!

When stuff like this happens, you know, servers not being able to handle requests for even such small amounts of time like 30 minutes, this delicate balance between convience and annoyance gets tipped in the not so favorable direction. Forcing people to go online for a single player game is just wrong, and there is no way to argue around that.


Well the servers being full has never hindered my single play experience. In fact it has never hindered my online play experience. I myself did get the server full message on sunday morning though when I tried to DL UT3 and it took all of 5 minutes to get past that.

I am personally a fan of steam because due to where I live if I want to buy a computer game I have to make a 60 mile round trip for the purchase. With steam I click and download.
And because of that massive trip I usually end up out of the loop on many games but again with steam I go to the store and can view many titles right there at my fingertips.
It also made my christmas shopping easier as well since my brother and I usually get each other a game anyways I was able to purchase and gift, no spending 3 hours at the god damn mall for 1 purchase that looks like it was walked over by every customer in the place.
I also am a fan of the chat they have which keeps me in communication with my little bro when he's at college on the other side of the state.
And the automatic updates is a nice feature as well. Makes it easier for someone like me who does not think about stuff like that very often.

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.09 15:45:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 09/03/2009 15:48:38
Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 09/03/2009 15:48:27
I have never had a problem with Steam. It's infinitely superior to getting the downloads via other sites, and only slightly worse than going to the shops. They also have a policy of hosting mods and indie games. Valve = Great people. Very Happy

That said, if the game has no online content... YARRRR!!

(Added advantage: If you mix it with EVE Online - simply add EVE.exe to the Games tab - you get an instant VOIP, IM and Internet browser, all as an overlay of EVE. It's very handy to not have to use lots of little programs at the same time...)

Come to think of it, if you play EVE on Steam, and get your corpies to use Steam too, you could use the integrated stuff so you could play some "Teambuilding" games of TF2... ugh

Mangala Solaris
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.09 16:35:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Cing Liberdanis
Originally by: lofty29
Shrug.

Through 5 or 6 major game released on steam (HL2, Ep1, Orange Box, GTA4, L4D), I've never once had the servers be too busy to handle my request.

Sux 2 be u!


This.


While I wouldnt want to pyramid - this.

P'uck
Posted - 2009.03.09 18:10:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
I didn't need steam to fire those up.

Do me a favour, uninstall steam and try it again.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.09 18:20:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
I didn't need steam to fire those up.

Do me a favour, uninstall steam and try it again.


Why would I fix the results for you? MY LAPTOP WAS NOT ONLINE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AND I STILL WAS ABLE TO PLAY MY SINGLE PLAYER GAMES. What part of that are you not able to understand?

Do me a favor and unplug your modem cable before replying.


Lord Kazuhiro
Caldari
Amarr Empire Shipyards
Posted - 2009.03.11 04:50:00 - [46]
 

This reminds me when I first got Half Life 2 and had to install it and steam using 56k dial-up. And of course 300mb of patches. With people using the phone from time to time. Took me 2 weeks to finnaly play the game. All because you HAD to have all the updates and had to be online to play the game back then. There was no offline mode, and you crashed when someone tried using the phone. Needless to say I got the fastest DSL I could find when I finnaly got my own place. I remember wanting to burn down valve's headquarters. Laughing

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.11 10:10:00 - [47]
 

I don't know why you people want to rent games at purchase price. I don't know why you care so little about the things you buy rent that you don't care if some server administrator somewhere decides to break them. I don't know why you don't mind handing over control of part of your system to a company somewhere, when we all got along just fine without them for decades.

But on behalf of those who do want to buy games, who do want our games to work in the future, and do want control of our software, I'd just like to thank you for ignoring the shoddy service you are getting for the sake of a little perceived convenience.
Your tireless efforts in mindlessly accepting any terms offered to you by your new corporate overlords will ensure the survival and spread of Steam and similar services, so that someday, all of us can share in the joy of receiving an intentionally crippled product if we wish to play games.

Furthermore, were it not for you, dangerous modern ideas such as the elevation of games to the equivalent of other media may have attained a foothold. For pledging your support to the restriction of games to mere transient entertainment, I salute you.

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:17:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Calvin Firenze

The Steam servers are to busy to handle your request.

I just paid $50 for a game and now I have to wait until the servers are less busy to even install and play a game that I don't even have to be online to play.



As far as copy protection goes, Steam is the best of a bad bunch.

I'd far rather the occasional glitch from a busy server than having to hunt out a certain word on a certain page in the manual, or have Starforce or a Sony rootkit installed on my PC.

I've never personally had a problem with Steam apart from the occasional server glitch like the OP says - it's the best of a bad bunch, really.

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:20:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Calvin Firenze

If the server is too busy, people should be allowed to install a game they bought in a store.



Okay, but how do you stop people configuring their firewall to block access to the authentication servers, so as giving the appearance that they are busy/down? :)

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:32:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 11/03/2009 13:36:05
Originally by: Crumplecorn
But on behalf of those who do want to buy games, who do want our games to work in the future, and do want control of our software, I'd just like to thank you for buying them off Steam.Your tireless efforts in not having to bother searching through racks of My Little Pony games, downloading piles of third party software and on top of that enjoying reliable patching services by a game development company similar to CCP will ensure the survival and spread of Steam and similar services, so that someday, all of us can share in the joy of playing games in a more enjoyable and convenient fashion.

Furthermore, were it not for you, dangerous modern ideas such as the keeping PC games exclusive to computer nerds and away from the people that have trouble understanding certian complexities in computers may have attained a foothold. For pledging your support to the advancement of games to more efficient release, patching and support mechanisms, I salute you.


I decided to frame the counter-argument by modifying the original post.

Mickey Simon
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:38:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Why would I fix the results for you? MY LAPTOP WAS NOT ONLINE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AND I STILL WAS ABLE TO PLAY MY SINGLE PLAYER GAMES. What part of that are you not able to understand?

Do me a favor and unplug your modem cable before replying.



That doesn't change the fact that you need to be online to install a single player game.
Yes, you can run in offline mode (which does require you to reconnect periodically iirc), but you will still need to be online in order to install any steam based program.

That part is kinda annoying tbh, but I would prefer to be online to verify stuff on steam them be verifying a secuROM install -_-

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2009.03.11 13:58:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Mickey Simon

That part is kinda annoying tbh, but I would prefer to be online to verify stuff on steam them be verifying a secuROM install -_-


Out of interest, why is this such a problem for people?

I would imagine that for most people they will play on their gaming PC, which is pretty much constantly connected to a cable or DSL line, making this a non-issue.

For the rare people that have a laptop and are not at home (for example travelling on business) and pick up a game on their way, surely there are enough wireless hotspots and hotel rooms with network points that this just isn't an issue?

What am I missing here?

Why is it so hard to have an active network connection when you are installing a game?

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.11 15:13:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Doctor Penguin
I decided to frame the counter-argument by modifying the original post.
And nothing in that counter-argument requires the DRM aspects of Steam.

Think about that the next time you bend over for them.

Extra points for suggesting that DD promotes games to people who don't understand computers BTW.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.11 15:28:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Mickey Simon
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Why would I fix the results for you? MY LAPTOP WAS NOT ONLINE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AND I STILL WAS ABLE TO PLAY MY SINGLE PLAYER GAMES. What part of that are you not able to understand?

Do me a favor and unplug your modem cable before replying.



That doesn't change the fact that you need to be online to install a single player game.
Yes, you can run in offline mode (which does require you to reconnect periodically iirc), but you will still need to be online in order to install any steam based program.

That part is kinda annoying tbh, but I would prefer to be online to verify stuff on steam them be verifying a secuROM install -_-


I'm not talking about the installation feature, I'm just trying to get the point across to some of these people that you can play in offline mode.
I connect my laptop to my network once a month to update everything (Games, Vista, firewalls, etc.), a process that takes a couple of hours while I'm doing something else around the house. Other than that it rarely see's a cable.

But since people are dead set on the gotta be online to install crap then here is another tidbit of information. You can play the game while its installing. How many out of the box games can you do that with? When I bought the Orange box I set every game to install on my pc and set about enjoying HL2 for the first time, while it was at 1% downloaded.


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