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Gar Ddhen
Gallente
Inspired Beginnings
Posted - 2009.03.03 22:56:00 - [61]
 

If you are a Falcon pilot and not using BM's you are a muppet... used correctly its a very powerful ship, used incorrectly its a wreck waiting to happen. You dont take a paper thin ship like the Falcon into combat without preparing your ground first. Thats not Falcon whining, or cowardice, its good tactical sense.

Most folk operate in an area, when in a new area I spend several days making bookmarks on damned near every gate I am likely to have to fight on, watch or travel through.Thats 2 or more tacticals at 200km and an off grid scan spot minimum. If I am not particularly busy I will add to those bookmarks, creating shorter range tacticals as well as more 200km snipe spots, station points, etc etc.

If I engage in a Falcon, I am already aligned, usually to mid point safe, if something red boxes, I am out of there. If a tackler gets within 50 km, I am out of there. Missiles from a Cerb wouldnt reach me unless I got caught on a gate and get a nasty case of lag spike.

BM's are pretty much vital to any serious Recon pilot (I fly Pilgrim, Arazu and Falcon), and chances are, most good recon pilots will have at least 3 bookmarks on any gate in their operating area they happen to be near... often more.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.04 07:39:00 - [62]
 

Gar, I agree. The same applies to any ship with long range plus weak tank.

When I'm flying my cerb, the bookmarks I have made - having spent long, profitless hours doing so - are usually ideally placed.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.04 07:43:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
My rapier would like to know how he becomes invulnerable by making some bookmarks.


My falc would like to know why you're asking such an obtuse question. As if you think the falcon and the rapier have remotely comparable roles.

Why doesn't my alt's domi have the same range as my rokh, boo hoo *tears* ITS NOT FAIR THAT MY HIGHLY SPECIALISED AND EFFECTIVE SHIP CAN'T ALSO COMPETE WITH A DIFFERENT HIGHLY SPECIALISED AND EFFECTIVE SHIP IN IT'S ROLE AS WELL AS MY OWN *tears*

I, personally, successfully put Omarvellous' theory in to practice last night. So go theorycraft yourself.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.04 09:14:00 - [64]
 

Malc, how many volleys do you need to down a Falcon and how many can you get into the air (at say 100km range) before the first one connects? Because if you can get all/most of them in the air before the first one hits (and he only has a few seconds to react) how about a nice passive targeter to catch him offguard?



Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.03.04 09:48:00 - [65]
 

4-5 volleys to kill an untanked Falcon. With an overheated ROF of ~4 seconds, you can have 3 volleys in space by the time the first reaches 100 km range.

But I'm pretty sure that passive targeters don't work how you want them to work.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.03.04 10:25:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 04/03/2009 10:26:01
you need ~5 volleys to get an untanked falcon, taking into account that the first volley needs ~20 seconds to hit it is enough time to get off 2 jamming cycles of doom and warp out. thats 40s of hell for your gang. not a very effective counter.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.04 11:39:00 - [67]
 

You might think when a lot of gangs nowadays field Falcons more than any other ship there is something wrong. You might think when bigger gangs profit from their Falcons more than smaller ones something is wrong. You might think when they are specificly used to prevent fights something has to be wrong.

Whenever these tactics are viable depends entirely on your enemy, as in almost every situational tactic. It might work on someone who praise themself to be someone in PvP maybe even on the ones who know what they're doing, but certainly doesn't on coward morrons. And that's the point for me. The Falcon provides the weak with a tool that lets them prevent fights, or in case of an engagement, multiplys their forces that are outnumbering the opponent already. This is what throws it off ballance.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.04 12:46:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim
Malc, how many volleys do you need to down a Falcon and how many can you get into the air (at say 100km range) before the first one connects? Because if you can get all/most of them in the air before the first one hits (and he only has a few seconds to react) how about a nice passive targeter to catch him offguard?





You don't have to kill a falcon to stop it jamming. 2-3 volleys will have it in armour, and those shields will take a while to regenerate. If friend falcon wants to come back on the field with no shields left, that's just fine by me.
I was shooting at the falc, and he was mostly failing to jam me (he got one single jam) because I had an ECCM fitted. When he warped off & cloaked up I switched targets to any handy minmator ships (lol kinetic resist hole).
Meanwhile I was moving around some, pulsing my MWD to stop him getting a warp in on me.

Falcons can be very effective - I know that as well as anyone - but the plain fact is that if you have a ship or three fitted to counter them, you can reduce their effectiveness very significantly. I know this from both sides. Some gangs take active measures to counter falcons, and aren't overly troubled by them; others just bring their EFTerrific short-range ships, get jammed, then run to the forums and tell lies.

Lola Fang
Space Assassination Service
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:03:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:21:33

Train a Cerberus.

Fit it like this.

3x Ballistic Control II
Warded Gravimetric backup ECCM

10MN MWD
2x Sensor Booster II (1-2 rnage scripts - I use one to get faster locks, unless the target is at 240km)
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM (overheat the bastard - it can take a lot of heat)
Large Shield Extender - sometimes you still take gate guns - or hostile snipers.

5x Heavy Missile Launcher II
Large Armor remote Rep - offline for overheating heat sink.

2x Hydraulic Bay thrusters

400 dps (464 overheated) - close to 500 with implants.
Firing at 200-240 km.

Stay out of gate gun range (easy) - stay aligned (intys are a must to be avoided - you can't have them point you and have their guys warp to him and gank you).

44 Sensor Strength - 51 overheated.

Protect your Falcons as well as killing hostile Falcons/Recons.

Some results:

Dead Falcon 1

Dead Falcon 2

Dead Falcon 3

Dead Falcon 4 with an Onyx (OK I was in an Onyx with Heavies for this - same concept)

This list ofc doesn't includes Falcons I've driven off. A Falcon that is forced to warp off is the most useless ship in your gang.

I've designed a Sniper Rokh (way more skill intensive) and a Sniper Eagle.

Fact is a ship of your own with a MWD, and the capability to hit out to 200km with 2x ECCM is crucial for any gang.


How do you kill a falcon with 500dps? It has about 6K hitpoints assuming no plate. It will jump before missiles hit or after first volley if a bit slow witted.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:10:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Lola Fang
Originally by: Omarvelous
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:21:33

Train a Cerberus.

Fit it like this.

3x Ballistic Control II
Warded Gravimetric backup ECCM

10MN MWD
2x Sensor Booster II (1-2 rnage scripts - I use one to get faster locks, unless the target is at 240km)
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM (overheat the bastard - it can take a lot of heat)
Large Shield Extender - sometimes you still take gate guns - or hostile snipers.

5x Heavy Missile Launcher II
Large Armor remote Rep - offline for overheating heat sink.

2x Hydraulic Bay thrusters

400 dps (464 overheated) - close to 500 with implants.
Firing at 200-240 km.

Stay out of gate gun range (easy) - stay aligned (intys are a must to be avoided - you can't have them point you and have their guys warp to him and gank you).

44 Sensor Strength - 51 overheated.

Protect your Falcons as well as killing hostile Falcons/Recons.

Some results:

Dead Falcon 1

Dead Falcon 2

Dead Falcon 3

Dead Falcon 4 with an Onyx (OK I was in an Onyx with Heavies for this - same concept)

This list ofc doesn't includes Falcons I've driven off. A Falcon that is forced to warp off is the most useless ship in your gang.

I've designed a Sniper Rokh (way more skill intensive) and a Sniper Eagle.

Fact is a ship of your own with a MWD, and the capability to hit out to 200km with 2x ECCM is crucial for any gang.


How do you kill a falcon with 500dps? It has about 6K hitpoints assuming no plate. It will jump before missiles hit or after first volley if a bit slow witted.


Why don't you ask the guy he killed?

Psi Draconis
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:14:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Psi Draconis on 04/03/2009 13:15:38
Originally by: Omarvelous
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:21:33

Train a Cerberus.

Fit it like this.

3x Ballistic Control II
Warded Gravimetric backup ECCM

10MN MWD
2x Sensor Booster II (1-2 rnage scripts - I use one to get faster locks, unless the target is at 240km)
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM (overheat the bastard - it can take a lot of heat)
Large Shield Extender - sometimes you still take gate guns - or hostile snipers.

5x Heavy Missile Launcher II
Large Armor remote Rep - offline for overheating heat sink.

2x Hydraulic Bay thrusters

400 dps (464 overheated) - close to 500 with implants.
Firing at 200-240 km.

Stay out of gate gun range (easy) - stay aligned (intys are a must to be avoided - you can't have them point you and have their guys warp to him and gank you).

44 Sensor Strength - 51 overheated.

Protect your Falcons as well as killing hostile Falcons/Recons.

Some results:

Dead Falcon 1

Dead Falcon 2

Dead Falcon 3

Dead Falcon 4 with an Onyx (OK I was in an Onyx with Heavies for this - same concept)

This list ofc doesn't includes Falcons I've driven off. A Falcon that is forced to warp off is the most useless ship in your gang.

I've designed a Sniper Rokh (way more skill intensive) and a Sniper Eagle.

Fact is a ship of your own with a MWD, and the capability to hit out to 200km with 2x ECCM is crucial for any gang.
Single t1 battleship with t1 fitting and t1 ammo does the same thing.

About 2 weeks old character can force falcon to warp away.

To alpha Falcon you need guns. For example apocs with oneiros support (tracking links with optimal scripts).

But still a total noob with long range guns can force falcon to warp away from the scene.

You don't need to kill the falcon to prevent it from jamming.

Missiles are FAIL against falcons. Period.

EDIT: Unless the falcon pilot is total idiot... In other words... Not aligned... And realising what is happening at the field...


Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:15:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lola Fang


How do you kill a falcon with 500dps? It has about 6K hitpoints assuming no plate. It will jump before missiles hit or after first volley if a bit slow witted.


Why don't you ask the guy he killed?


Very Happy

Best response ever.YARRRR!!

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.03.04 14:12:00 - [73]
 

Or the ones that I've killed in a similarly-fit Cerb in recent months. Neutral

Yes, Falcons should warp to one of their million tactical BMs as soon as they've applied jammers.
Yes, turret snipers are better at instantly applying DPS and are the obvious choice in fleet.

But Eve isn't a perfect world. In the small gangs that the Cerb fit is intended for - the same small gangs which cause the most whining about Falcons - you often don't have the pilots available (and if you do, sometimes not the desire) to stick one in a one-dimensional, fragile, easily-jammed and slow sniper BS, and the opposing small gang is more likely to have a Falcon piloted by an alt who can't react in time.

Theorycrafting that the Cerb doesn't work in these situations is all very nice, but it's proven wrong by actual experience. Of course it's not perfect - but so is every counter that you can think of. It seems that some people want a magical 100%-proof counter to ECM. Well, Eve doesn't work like that. Neutral

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:18:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 04/03/2009 16:26:33
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 04/03/2009 16:20:12
This will work against falcon pilots who aren't very good or who don't have bookmarks on grid but still feel the need to stay and engage. This won't work against a very prepared falcon pilot fighting on a home gate or home station where they have 7 150km bookmarks off the object in question.

That being said when I know that I'm going to run into falcons, I try to force it to be a situation where they aren't likely to have bookmarks. If however you're forced into that situation, the best defense is battleships who can alpha the falcon or ewar of your own to force the falcon to keep warping around or a cloaked up ship to get a warp in to gank the falcon.

In reality, for every skilled falcon pilot that has lots of bookmarks, is mobile, etc - there's also 3 unskilled falcon pilots who will sit there and die and that's why he has falcon killmails. Goes to show that you shouldn't sometimes over think things, sometimes you just put yourself in a situation where you can put fire on the target and they screw up and you capitalize on it.

Edited again to add: Look at videos like Kil2's last Club Bear video. In all of those fights if the enemy did what they should've done, they would've won. But they didn't. And because they didn't and because he put himself out there to capitalize on their mistakes, he was able to slaughter so many. You've got frigates getting into scram range and getting popped, you've got cruisers who sit there and die to Berserker II's without thinking to shoot them, you've got people getting baited by the structure tank Mega and dying horribly because of it, etc. Half your kills are going to be capitalizing on enemy's mistakes. First you put yourself in a position where you can reasonably survive/get away (heavy tank to deaggress, heavy DPS to kill tackles or Nano to burn away), then you put yourself into positions where you're giving your enemies chances to make mistakes while making none yourself. And then you profit.

Andnowthenews
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:34:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Andnowthenews on 04/03/2009 16:34:13
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut


Edited again to add: Look at videos like Kil2's last Club Bear video. In all of those fights if the enemy did what they should've done, they would've won. But they didn't.


This pretty much sums it up tbh.

Most of the whiners list a huge amount of things that a falcon pilot can do if he has the BM's ect and on his home turf, but never bother to try and do the things recomended to catch a falcon.

The list of falcon kills above show that if you use the techniques and tactics ppl recommended as well as fit eccm on the right ships you will kill falcons and win fights.

But like most lazy players cry > try.

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:45:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr
Originally by: Furb Killer
99% of the falcons i see are between 150 and 200km distance.


Hmm, you should stop jumping into well prepared gate camps if you cannot counter their advantage with
a) numbers
b) ehp (maybe RR) or
c) eccm.





Combat almost always happens at Gates or Stations these days, even if its an Asteroid belt, the Falcon can simply warp to 100km and jam from there whilst burning the opposite direction to gain range. If you ambush them, the Falcon can simply warp in at 100km from his gang mates. Pretty annoying but it can be dealt with. Cool

Does the Falcon still jam when it's warping? IE if it warps/cloaks, does the cycle keep going or does it immediately cut off? Have they changed this at all?

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:47:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Malc, how many volleys do you need to down a Falcon and how many can you get into the air (at say 100km range) before the first one connects? Because if you can get all/most of them in the air before the first one hits (and he only has a few seconds to react) how about a nice passive targeter to catch him offguard?





You don't have to kill a falcon to stop it jamming. 2-3 volleys will have it in armour, and those shields will take a while to regenerate. If friend falcon wants to come back on the field with no shields left, that's just fine by me.
I was shooting at the falc, and he was mostly failing to jam me (he got one single jam) because I had an ECCM fitted. When he warped off & cloaked up I switched targets to any handy minmator ships (lol kinetic resist hole).
Meanwhile I was moving around some, pulsing my MWD to stop him getting a warp in on me.

Falcons can be very effective - I know that as well as anyone - but the plain fact is that if you have a ship or three fitted to counter them, you can reduce their effectiveness very significantly. I know this from both sides. Some gangs take active measures to counter falcons, and aren't overly troubled by them; others just bring their EFTerrific short-range ships, get jammed, then run to the forums and tell lies.


Won't the Falcon simply jam the person who shot him? or is the entire fleet prepped to deal with one? or just this ship? Pretty curious on how I can take down a Falcon myself to help the fleet, takes a bit to get my Arazu in range but once i'm there I can damp him out of the fight usually. Smile

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.04 17:04:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Irida Mershkov

Won't the Falcon simply jam the person who shot him? or is the entire fleet prepped to deal with one? or just this ship? Pretty curious on how I can take down a Falcon myself to help the fleet, takes a bit to get my Arazu in range but once i'm there I can damp him out of the fight usually. Smile


A typical falcon fit will have 1 of each racial, 2 caldari racials and a sensor booster and a MWD to fill out his 7 mid slots. This means he can only effectively jam one of each race, technically 2 Caldari. That being said his priority will be to try to jam out battleships and remote reps and enemy ECM. This makes the cerberus effective, since often he will not have the jammers to keep him consistently jammed once he has ECCM fitted. The cerberus will be a low priority unless its the only Caldari ship there.

Sensor damps have the same issue if he has bookmarks but its a good way to get him out of the fight if you can keep up with him. Usually if I have stealth bombers in my gang I will ask them to try to damp out the falcons. If I had an Arazu I'd rather him fit ECCM, overload his disruptor and ECCM and try to put a point on the falcon. If you succeed in doing that, the falcon dies. For this sort of thing I'd want to spring for the expensive warp disruptor (domination), because it has a 70km or so point overloaded without gang boosts. Surprise! Dead falcon.

Take the fight to a belt, warp in at 70 yourself while staying cloaked. Falcon will warp in at 100km and start jamming. Uncloak, immediately point and get over to him and kill him.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.03.04 18:06:00 - [79]
 

Please stop suggestion sniper BS.

This is a small roaming gang counter. Obviously should I have the convenience of a fleet I will use a sniper BS.

I don't like roaming with a big, slow, poorly tanked ship. If my gang was big enough to support me and isn't moving super fast - then yes my sniper BS will do the job better.

I've nailed Falcons in 4 volleys - once the 1st volley connects there is a 4 second delay between volleys. I don't care if I pop the falcon - harassing them to the point of uselessness is good enough, then I can turn around and fire on the primary with 400 dps.

Am I suggesting you replace your squad's falcon with this?

NO.

I'm simply suggesting a well designed ship to complement a small gang's diversity. If I plan to roam - I plan to have a mix of offense and defense.

Thercon Jair
Minmatar
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.03.04 18:23:00 - [80]
 

Interesting, didn't know that falcons continue to jam the already started cycle even though they are already in warp. Why do the gang links on my claymore turn off when I go into warp, and the effect is immediate, yet, when there's tons of people in fleet and also a ton in the hostile fleet it takes up to 10min for the ganklink effect to kick in. I know the effect turns off when I warp. Didn't check though if it takes another 10min until the effect kicks in again after I warped. This would suck seriously, and mean I've invested in a ship that is.. useless.. because it doesn't provide the bonus. Balanced \o/

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.03.05 00:33:00 - [81]
 

tried this the other day, had a cerb in gang with 2 gravimetric backup arrays in the lows, still got perma jammed

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.03.05 01:46:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Gneeznow
tried this the other day, had a cerb in gang with 2 gravimetric backup arrays in the lows, still got perma jammed


Try this setup

3x ballistic control II
Signal Amp II

10MN MWD
2x ECCM
Sensor Booster II
Large Shield Extender II

5x Heavy Missile Launcher II

2x Bay Thruster Rigs

50 sensor strength - over heat and you're near 80's.

If you're still perma jammed - then the falcons are throwing multiple (more than 4) ecm on you - ie your gang was outnumbered and going to lose regardless.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.05 02:29:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Andnowthenews

This pretty much sums it up tbh.

Most of the whiners list a huge amount of things that a falcon pilot can do if he has the BM's ect and on his home turf, but never bother to try and do the things recomended to catch a falcon.

The list of falcon kills above show that if you use the techniques and tactics ppl recommended as well as fit eccm on the right ships you will kill falcons and win fights.

But like most lazy players cry > try.



This is irrelevant. What you're saying is that we gonna assume good/perfect conditions for the attacking gang and horrible ones for the Falcons. Very neat way to look at it. I'm sure a lot of people could post BS (PvP fitted) kills they have done solo in a T1 Cruiser or even a Frig, it just doesn't tell much about their efficiency. And as far as I know when we look for ballance, we asume perfect conditions (player skill and fitting) because we're looking for the potential of a ship, not the most likely morron to fly it.

But like most lazy players post > think.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.05 14:09:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: Andnowthenews

This pretty much sums it up tbh.

Most of the whiners list a huge amount of things that a falcon pilot can do if he has the BM's ect and on his home turf, but never bother to try and do the things recomended to catch a falcon.

The list of falcon kills above show that if you use the techniques and tactics ppl recommended as well as fit eccm on the right ships you will kill falcons and win fights.

But like most lazy players cry > try.



This is irrelevant. What you're saying is that we gonna assume good/perfect conditions for the attacking gang and horrible ones for the Falcons. Very neat way to look at it. I'm sure a lot of people could post BS (PvP fitted) kills they have done solo in a T1 Cruiser or even a Frig, it just doesn't tell much about their efficiency. And as far as I know when we look for ballance, we asume perfect conditions (player skill and fitting) because we're looking for the potential of a ship, not the most likely morron to fly it.

But like most lazy players post > think.


This is not a balance discussion. This is where you somehow confused this thread with "are bookmarks and sniping overpowered". This thread is about anti-falcon cerberus and yeah, its effective. By your logic a thorax should never win a fight, since all anyone has to do is stay 5km away from it. By your logic neuts shouldn't be effective since you can fit a cap booster, yet they are. By your logic, bubbles shouldn't matter because anyone can burn back to the gate or avoid it to begin with. Etc. You shouldn't assume perfect scenarios, you should have an understanding of what the situation is and what the limitations are and go with it from there.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.05 14:25:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 05/03/2009 14:27:04
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Malc, how many volleys do you need to down a Falcon and how many can you get into the air (at say 100km range) before the first one connects? Because if you can get all/most of them in the air before the first one hits (and he only has a few seconds to react) how about a nice passive targeter to catch him offguard?





You don't have to kill a falcon to stop it jamming. 2-3 volleys will have it in armour, and those shields will take a while to regenerate. If friend falcon wants to come back on the field with no shields left, that's just fine by me.
I was shooting at the falc, and he was mostly failing to jam me (he got one single jam) because I had an ECCM fitted. When he warped off & cloaked up I switched targets to any handy minmator ships (lol kinetic resist hole).
Meanwhile I was moving around some, pulsing my MWD to stop him getting a warp in on me.

Falcons can be very effective - I know that as well as anyone - but the plain fact is that if you have a ship or three fitted to counter them, you can reduce their effectiveness very significantly. I know this from both sides. Some gangs take active measures to counter falcons, and aren't overly troubled by them; others just bring their EFTerrific short-range ships, get jammed, then run to the forums and tell lies.


Won't the Falcon simply jam the person who shot him? or is the entire fleet prepped to deal with one? or just this ship? Pretty curious on how I can take down a Falcon myself to help the fleet, takes a bit to get my Arazu in range but once i'm there I can damp him out of the fight usually. Smile


He'll probably try. But despite the rather hysterical claims of Falcon omnipotence made in this forum, the reality is that

(1) ECMs have a 20-secnd cycle time. If the Falcon has already commited his ECMs, you have 1-20 seconds grace.

(2) ECMs do not always "permajam". A Cerb with an ECCM fitted is very hard to jam. A Falcon stands a reasonably good chance of jamming an ECCM cerb if he uses all his jammers but if he does that then you've effectively removed him from the fight anyway.

(3) Falcons are slow. If you scare a falcon into warping off to a celstial, you've removed him from the fight for a couple of minutes - an eon, in PvP terms - during which you can redirect your fire to other hostiles. If he merely warps to a nearby bookmark then target him again as soon as he appears - you get a 6-second headstart, so even if he sucessfully jams you first try (see above), you should have at least 1 volley in flight - forcing him to warp again.

(4) Falcons are not immune to lag and plain old pilot error. The more you harrass a falcon and force him to repeatedly make hurried decisions, the more likely it is that he'll eventually screw up. No-one is perfect. This applies double to the "falcon alt": if you're forcing someone who is using a falcon alt to pay all his attention to the falcon, then either you've removed his "main" ship from the fight or you'll make him withdraw the falcon. If he's cycling between the same 2-3 bookmarks, then you in an Arazu will get your chance soon enough.

(5) Falcons are horribly fragile. That shield will disappear really fast if he has to endure a flight of CN Scourge every time he wants to try and make a jam. Eventually he'll have to leave, cloak up and let the shield regen.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.03.05 14:28:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 14:30:56
Originally by: Cohkka
This is irrelevant. What you're saying is that we gonna assume good/perfect conditions for the attacking gang and horrible ones for the Falcons. Very neat way to look at it. I'm sure a lot of people could post BS (PvP fitted) kills they have done solo in a T1 Cruiser or even a Frig, it just doesn't tell much about their efficiency. And as far as I know when we look for ballance, we asume perfect conditions (player skill and fitting) because we're looking for the potential of a ship, not the most likely morron to fly it.

But like most lazy players post > think.


I have a Falcon killmail of a corpmate of yours from a couple of months ago. The Falcon was sitting 70 km off a gate and allowed an interceptor to MWD over to it, then act as a warp-in point for my non-ECCMed Drake.

This shouldn't have worked. But it did, because there's plenty of "morrons" out there. Neutral

128th ABC123
Lucky Clover Investments
Posted - 2009.03.05 15:08:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
So ignoring the flight time of your missiles, what exactly prevents that falcon from just warping out?


I have killed 18 falcons solo in fleet fights/gang fights with either my raven or a cerb fitted in a similair way.

First of all making the falcon warp out is half the work. Secondly with a raven for instance fit for longrange or a cerb with hydraulic bay thruster rigs you can 3 volley a falcon, so if the pilot is dumb, which alot of falcon pilots are... or if it is a falcon alt... you stand a good chance hes not aligned out or simply not fast enough to hit warp.

IT WORKS.

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.03.08 06:54:00 - [88]
 

so I was just roaming about in an dual ECCM ishtar right, and had 74 sensor strength, and got jammed 3 cycles in a row by a falcon no problem, his buddy I was tackling warped off and then the falcon cloaked, I had 74 sensor strength, jammed 3 times in a row, no misses cycles, seriously CCP nerf this crap.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.08 14:37:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Gneeznow
so I was just roaming about in an dual ECCM ishtar right, and had 74 sensor strength, and got jammed 3 cycles in a row by a falcon no problem, his buddy I was tackling warped off and then the falcon cloaked, I had 74 sensor strength, jammed 3 times in a row, no misses cycles, seriously CCP nerf this crap.


This one time, at band camp, you completely failed to not generalise from specifics.

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.03.08 19:00:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Gneeznow
so I was just roaming about in an dual ECCM ishtar right, and had 74 sensor strength, and got jammed 3 cycles in a row by a falcon no problem, his buddy I was tackling warped off and then the falcon cloaked, I had 74 sensor strength, jammed 3 times in a row, no misses cycles, seriously CCP nerf this crap.


This one time, at band camp, you completely failed to not generalise from specifics.


this one time, on eve-o someone said the falcon was overpowered, and endless streams of faceless caldari came into the thread to defend it.

Simply put, I've tried the cerb anti-falcon, it got jammed, I've tried the tachpoc anti falcon, on 2 occasions it got 1 volley off then was primaried and died due to its lack of tank, I've tried dual ECCM ishtar, I was jammed with ease, I've tried dual ECCM dominix, again jammed 2 cycles unjammed 1 cycle jammed 2 cycles then died.

from a practical viewpoint the falcon is way overpowered


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