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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2009.03.02 14:56:00 - [1]
 

Get yer minds out of the gutter you scrawny dogs, you! This blog is serious business!

Many of you had questions after reading CCP Fear's blog about changes to the New Player Experience, especially when it centered around the lowering of skill points, and the decrease in the time it would take to train a skill.

CCP Flatboy's newest blog follows up on this, and gives more information about the NPE's skill changes.

Read all about it here.

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.02 14:58:00 - [2]
 

Oh great, I took that class in partial differential equations for Nothing?

Oh well, still a good idea CCP! :)

mmmmm first ;)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 14:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:23:17
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 15:48:40
reserved

issue
Currently on TQ
it takes about 1 month of just watching your basic learning skills go to level 4 and your advanced go to level 3 (with implants)

now on m10
plus 3 implants give effective 6 attribute points.
level 4 basic gives you effective 8 attribute points.
level 3 advanced gives you effective 6 attribute points.
learning skill effectively doubles it's effect.

With this change, instead of taking 1 month to learn learning skills, it now takes half of the time. Minus the time it used to take to get memory up to level 4/3 which is another 4-5 days saved.

This means it only takes new players 10 days to get basic to 4, and advanced to 3.

This alone is not an issue, as anything that makes new players have to spend less time training learning skills is a good thing.

however , once you lose your double training bonus, you lose not only half learning speed, but 4 times slower learning speed than IF you trained learning skills during your double training rate.

SO if you don't train learning you will train 4 times slower than a player that did train learning skills before hand.

But that's not all.

in 10 days you can have 44/44/11/48/44 effective attributes. This train at about... 3000 sp/hour. you start at about 1000 sp an hour.(with double rate) So in 10 days you can train at 5000 sp an hour. not exact math, I'm rounding, I don't know the sp rate per attributes, just using basic factions)
this is at 24,000/72,000 per/day sp

total sp
new player/player who trained learning skills
day 1
50,000/50,000
day 10
290,000sp/500,000sp

as you can see player 1 has 290,000 sp of non-learning skills, pretttty awesome. much better than player who has wasted his 10 days on basicly no gain in his real sp that effective his performance in the game.

now lets continue at our new rates, see how long it takes to overcome the other player, what could the payoff time be for these learning skills.

day 20
530,000sp/1220000sp

now player 1 has 530,000 in real skills sp
player 2 has... 770000 sp in REAL SKILLS sp.

the learning has allready paid off.

now lets go some more shall we?

day 26
674000sp/1652000sp

player 2 now has lost his double training rate! oh noes!

but thankfull he got those learning kill up in time and continue at 1500 sp/hour! boy that sure will help himj when he goes to train those advanded learning to level 4. now when does player 1 hit his 1.6 million sp?

day 65
1,600,000sp/3,056,000sp

SO now player , is like, what the hell? my sp rate is half now???? whaaatTT????? oh, learning skills? and if I gain 10-11 attibute points I'll be able to trian at double rate again? plus implants? well I want my old rate back so I'll go train learning skills! I don't want to ****ed over. but I won't waste my time either I'll just train them to level 4/3
as you know this takes double the time now, he is training at 500 sp/hour

so...
he needs to gain about 500,000 sp to finish his learning skill plan.

is about.... 700 hours. that's about 29 days. 3 times slower than our other friend. SO where are we now?

day 94
2,100,000/4,100,000

yay! now player one can finally train at his old rate again :) and even more with his impants! too bad he didn't use those during his 1st double rate days. and man... he got kind of sick of eve waiting a month for skills that weren't advancing his character... so he goes to the forum to find...

WHAT THE **** I could have over 4 million sp right now!!! and he has learning at the same level as me!!!

before it used to take a month to train learning skills, not 10 days.

and then took twice as long to ctach back up to when you overcome your learning skills sp. making them wroth it. but now you do so at double rate.

oh which reminds me, now player 1 must wait twice as long as player 2 just to get another 500,000 sp to overcome his learning skill wait. AS player 2 did that back at double speed.



continued...

Snowmann
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:02:00 - [4]
 

Wait, I don't understand.

Salem Rens
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:04:00 - [5]
 

I like that. That works.

Maria Kalista
Amarr
Knights of Kador
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:04:00 - [6]
 

Just quickly smashed a trading char together. No way you can do that after M10. Right? Shocked

Lysit Kaune
Minmatar
Band Of Bonkers
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:06:00 - [7]
 

Will double speed training apply to any character in training that has less than 1.6 mil SP, or say the first character created on that account or accounts made only after M10 etc?

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:14:00 - [8]
 

SpongeBob SquarePants gots nothing on us!!

Towelieban
Minmatar
Universal Army
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:19:00 - [9]
 

so a extra blog to say the same thing that was said before.......

War Porcika
FREE GATES
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:27:00 - [10]
 

I like it. :)
I remember with my first character, where the game started with just the basic skills around 100k, and I could really figure out what skill is for what, could chose my skills. And this smaller number of SP is just the good way to reach that feeling again.

Stuart Bruegel
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:38:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Stuart Bruegel on 02/03/2009 15:39:05
I think these changes from an NPE standpoint are good. The first few weeks will bite, but they'll probably make a lot more sense. And not having some unused skills trained to V without realizing what they're for is a good thing.

The bummer (?) about this is that you won't be able to roll a semi-effective alt without diverting a bunch of training time from your main anymore. Need five contract slots in a hurry? Too bad - you'll have to wait for them while those skills train up while your WTFpwn level V skill on your main chills out in the meantime. Same with lab slots.

Not saying this change isn't good for Eve, but to existing players this is the largest part of this change that hasn't really been mentioned officially. I'm guessing there are no plans to allow concurrent training on alts under 1.6m SP, so it would probably make sense to talk about this in big, blue lined bold letters so that nobody wakes up on M10 and screams stealth nerf when they can't insta-make a research/scam/etc alt anymore.

Edit: Spelling FTW.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:38:00 - [12]
 

I am still confused about which corporation new characters will end up in.Confused

Chruker
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:42:00 - [13]
 

Quote:
This does mean that Apocrypha characters will have slightly fewer skillpoints for the first weeks...


'slightly fewer' is that the same as '1/16th of what they currently get on TQ'?

I just created a character which started with 55000 points.

I'm not saying that this change is a bad thing, however saying 'slightly fewer' is kind of misleading.

Hive Father
Yorsch
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:43:00 - [14]
 

Previously I could create a Minmatar Soldier, get a Rifter and go pew pew at once. Or I could create a Gallente Special Forces, and in 24 hours be on a Vexor doing level 1-2 missions.

Now I will have to spend a couple of weeks just to train basic skills to fly Rifter and use t2 small guns with basic tank, propulsion and EW systems - no more insta-pewpew for the newbies.

Oh well. At least cynoalts will be 3 days apiece, not a week.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
I am still confused about which corporation new characters will end up in.Confused


Still seems to be 3 starter corps per race.

Dunno about if there's a method to selecting it.

Xi Tzu
Amarr
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:43:00 - [16]
 

so this means i can mash out learning skills faster for new alts... sounds like win to me...

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:49:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:06:02
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 15:59:29
Originally by: Xi Tzu
so this means i can mash out learning skills faster for new alts... sounds like win to me...


bingo!

post continued.

minmaxers are going to look up on the forums, or do the math themself, notice you gain 2 points instead of because of the double rate, and there fore gain 4 times the advantage quickly overcoming any lost time. They will never not train learning skills.

this is fine same as before.

B.players that just want to have fun won't ever learn learning skills, what a waste of time.

until they find out that in a small 15 day period those other players have pasted them in non-learning skill sp AND have their learning skills at a good level.

Then they keep going untill it's too late, then half to train learning skills at half rate, taking twice as long.

After a month of just wanting normal sp gain rate like everyone else, they go insane, and quit.

what a boring game. one month just so I can start training at a normal training rate or I lose months of training every month.

And then there is player C. who wants to have fun, but isn't stupid, and reads the forums, and asks for help.

this is about I'd say... 50-60% of the newer players. they don't stay quiet, they talk (even if not on the forums) and find this out before they go too far in and have to train for a month instead of 10 days.

But ti dawns on them, why would they have a skill you train just to train skills?

And they forever get a bad taste in thier mouth.

CCP, you must start now by removing at least advanced learning skills. This will not cure the problem, but it will help it. give this 5 points to all base attributes, unmovable.

I'm an older 3 year player and I don't care if you just promise up some sort of payback later on in the furture.Be it sp, isk, ships, or whatever, I don't care. Newer palyers will never catch up to me in sp anyways. I could lose those 1.5 million sp I trained and not care about it if it meant the game was improved.

Hell, you could take a year before you finally gave older players something for taking that sp away.Just get it done NOW, before M10.

I honestly don't think many older players would care.

Pros
-Newer players would train faster and not have to feel to ****ed over when they find out the deal with learning skills.

-You get to keep your stupid mechanic in the game.
just only as a 30 day time sink (to level 5) thing instead of a 100 day time sink (all learning to level 5)

Cons
-older players lose some sp
-more work for you finding something to give older players in return for their sp down the line.

Maybe a simple double training rate for us until we're back at our old sp?


well there you have it, cons, pros, and everything I could ever want to say on the subject.

thank you for reading.

I hope you read it Neutral

Hobgoblin ll
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:50:00 - [18]
 

Can we have +6 or +7 attribute implants maybe, so that old players can train faster aswell ???Neutral

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:02:00 - [19]
 

Sorry Fallout, but I have a huge feeling this will create the exact opposite movement for new players.

Now everybody WILL ALREADY tell new players to learn learning skills first. After the change this will even get worse.
If a newby wouldn't train learnings first we would be stupid as hell and EVERYBODY will tell him that! (Calculations see thread above)

But the fix is soo simple:
1) Give all newbies Basic Learning Skills level 4.
2) Change Advanced Learning Skills to require Basic Learning 5.

This will not hurt anybody. You don't give them a ton of SPs for 5 * level 4. It will not hinder them with their path selection. BUT it will help getting them a somewhat more enjoiable start into the game where they won't be told to train some skills they can't currently use for a week and thus driving them off the game...

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:06:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 02/03/2009 16:51:16
I still think this change has made the NPE much worse not better. How can it be better with the new worse introduction that no longer gives the player the world history, the removable of some of the storyline, the removal of the Aurora sounds that helped new players settle in. Last time I was on the test server the start was very bad with poorly drawn white box’s, lots of pointless waiting around and was juts general uninteresting and off-putting for new players.

Most new players will now have no idea how galaxy got to where it has. No idea what the Eve gate is, no idea why the game is called Eve. Little idea about the races, little idea about how the races go to where they have and the list goes on. Everything has been over simplified and made to generic.

“Skills received from character creation have been re-visited and removed, many of which were irrelevant to new players. Just to name one skill that a certain path could get - Who needs Siege Warfare when you are fresh out of military school?...”
I know this is from the older blog but a skill that is very useful for friends and group work is irrelevant!!!

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:10:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Amida Ta
Sorry Fallout, but I have a huge feeling this will create the exact opposite movement for new players.

Now everybody WILL ALREADY tell new players to learn learning skills first. After the change this will even get worse.
If a newby wouldn't train learnings first we would be stupid as hell and EVERYBODY will tell him that! (Calculations see thread above)

But the fix is soo simple:
1) Give all newbies Basic Learning Skills level 4.
2) Change Advanced Learning Skills to require Basic Learning 5.

This will not hurt anybody. You don't give them a ton of SPs for 5 * level 4. It will not hinder them with their path selection. BUT it will help getting them a somewhat more enjoiable start into the game where they won't be told to train some skills they can't currently use for a week and thus driving them off the game...


interesting.

In my plan you would gain 5, in yours, they gain 4.

then they would need to save up money to get the advanced learning skills.

Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...

StarWars BadGuy
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:16:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...


This gets mentioned everytime a NPE type thread comes up, and so it should, its a good one.

Though it never gets implemented, which is a shame, as the only arguments against it are by bitter people who have already trained them and feel they are being robbed by the idea.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:17:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:19:27
Originally by: StarWars BadGuy
Originally by: MotherMoon

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...


This gets mentioned everytime a NPE type thread comes up, and so it should, its a good one.

Though it never gets implemented, which is a shame, as the only arguments against it are by bitter people who have already trained them and feel they are being robbed by the idea.


but now it takes 20 days less to train them... so it's 300% more important to take action!


oh and I want to hear a dev tell us why they should stay, instead of the bitter people Evil or Very Mad

speaking of devs, if you were watching the 4th alliance tournament, one of the original devs states "learning skills was the worst idea we ever had" when asked what one thing would he change or add to the game if he could.

SO WHATS THE DEAL CCP!

DaiZ Do
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:18:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: DaiZ Do on 02/03/2009 16:18:50
IDEA:

Don't apply the Learning Skills group to the 1.6mil gap and also don't give that group the time multiplier and everyone's happy? So the effect of not training them is not so ridiculous..

So, Type B Players can catch up faster, realizing that Learning skills are quite useful. Type A players have to balance between learning Learning Skills or just go as high as needed with their shiny, new alt's skills.

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon

Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...

Exactly.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:24:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:27:02
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: MotherMoon

Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...

Exactly.


I kinda want to give them basic at 5 Shocked

Originally by: DaiZ Do
Edited by: DaiZ Do on 02/03/2009 16:18:50
IDEA:

Don't apply the Learning Skills group to the 1.6mil gap and also don't give that group the time multiplier and everyone's happy? So the effect of not training them is not so ridiculous..

So, Type B Players can catch up faster, realizing that Learning skills are quite useful. Type A players have to balance between learning Learning Skills or just go as high as needed with their shiny, new alt's skills.


oh ho, but it is still is just as drastic. it jsut takes 15 days to train basic to 4 and advanced to 3.

Think about it this way. it normally takes 30 days. After double rate it will take 15 days. But in you idea lets cut that down and make it take 30 days again.

you still get 2 points per attibute point. and you'll still overtake your non-learning skill sp before the 1.6 million is up and surpass those players that didn't train them.



Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:26:00 - [27]
 

Sounds like a good idea.

Mica Swanhaven
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mors Magne
Sounds like a good idea.


read the THREAD
slaps*

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:37:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Amida Ta on 02/03/2009 16:43:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:27:02
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: MotherMoon

Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)

this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...

Exactly.


I kinda want to give them basic at 5 Shocked


This means they would start with about 1.4 Mio SP right away. Which would be a problem because:
1) There is not much sense in the 100% boost at all if it only works for 200k more SPs
2) You have a huge problem with pre-Apocrypha newbies who have far less than 1.4 Mio SPs
3) It's a speedpath for alt chars who have no problems paying the price of the advanced skillbooks

brinelan
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:40:00 - [30]
 

Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?


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