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Derevaun Serauns
Posted - 2009.03.02 07:54:00 - [1]
 

I'm pretty new at the game, but I found an interest in ECMs. But after reading the forums for a while there are arguments for using only multi ECMs or racial ECM. What are the pros and cons of using one type over the other?

For now I am only looking at flying something like griffin or BB.

Thanks for the help

Joe Logoffski
Posted - 2009.03.02 08:01:00 - [2]
 

multispec have medium effectivity against all targets

racial is strong against its particular race but weak against other races


If you know target gang composition racials are the way to go, for a all-around setup multispecs are better (in general!).


As far as ships are concerned, on the BB/Falcon/Rook I've used racials most of the time, the Kitsune I usually go with multis.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.02 09:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Joe Logoffski
If you know target gang composition racials are the way to go, for a all-around setup multispecs are better (in general!).


False, actually. IIRC, it takes four jammers for X multispectrals to out-jam one correct racial and X-1 wrong racials. In other words, one correct + two wrong > three multi. If your priority is removing a single ship (of unknown race, of course) from the fight at all costs, fit multis. If your priority is jamming as much of the other gang as possible, fit racials.

On a Blackbird or Kitsune, this probably means one of each, since you're limited in slots. On a Scorpion, Falcon or Rook, fit one of each, then double up on Caldari and Amarr, in that order, as slots permit. Caldari have the highest sensor strength and are a top priority for counter-jamming, while Amarr are the current FOTM for good reason.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.02 09:18:00 - [4]
 

Multis are crap, the only advantage is that you don't have to think about what you're doing. They work decently against frigates but become unreliable against cruisers and bigger. If you're just helping out a bit and your fleet doesn't "need" you but rather sees you as a nice extra then sure, fit multis and get a jam of now and then.

If you want to actually make a proper difference you'll need racials as you can then focus on doing your job with a certain amount of certainty; "Jam that Mega while we focus on the Geddon", stuff like that. Also, forget about the Griffin and Kitsune, not worth it. BB is cheap and much more powerful.

Dotard
Minmatar
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.02 13:32:00 - [5]
 

Where are the maths geeks? Someone throw some maths up here.

What is the chance to jam for 3 multi and what is the chance to jam for one racial?

I have found that 2 multi and a few ecm drones can perma jam most BCs. Three multis and same few ecm drones can really screw with most BSs day. Just my experiance.




Byron Bauchus
Caldari
Imperii Fortuna
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:18:00 - [6]
 

note that distance is usually your friend in ECM ships as well giving you time to get the ECM on any would-be assailant before just warping out upon failure. on smaller ships like the griffin it might not matter too much, but on something like a BB the distance is better with racials.

but if you're going to engage 1:1 then just make sure you have at least one of each racial and extra slots with multis. just remember if you want to kill them you'll need that scram to take up a mid slot too :)

Salami Jackson
Fairlight Corp
FOUNDATI0N
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:23:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dotard
Where are the maths geeks? Someone throw some maths up here.

What is the chance to jam for 3 multi and what is the chance to jam for one racial?

I have found that 2 multi and a few ecm drones can perma jam most BCs. Three multis and same few ecm drones can really screw with most BSs day. Just my experiance.







I'm no math geek but I've learned the probability formula for calculating holdem odds that can be applied to this. The formula for calculating the chances of something failing a number of times in a row is fail% per try^number of tries.

Here it is applied to a real world Eve example:
My Kitsune has a multispec jam strength of 7.77 and a racial jam strength of 11.66. Lets say the jam target is a Megathron that has a sensor strength of 21.

The odds to sucessfully jam with one racial is 11.66/21 = 55.5%

The odds of jamming with at least one out of 3 multispecs is taking the failure% per jammer (.63)^number of jammers (3)=25% chance of failure, 75% success.

Tai Paktu
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:48:00 - [8]
 

Dedicated e-war pilots should carry a rack of each racial jammers in their cargo to swap out as necessary for situations where you know the make-up of the opposing fleet.

Otherwise, place slight emphasis on Caldari jammers (so you can outjam other ECM ships) followed by Gallente, Amarr and Minmatar.

Shadow Vincentius
Phoibe Enterprises
Peregrine Nation
Posted - 2009.03.02 22:42:00 - [9]
 

Multispec until you have the skills to use Racial, then just forget about multispec altogether.
If your flying a ship that doesn't have enough mid slots for at least one of each racial, and/or your not fitting at least one of each racial, your very much flying the wrong ship in the wrong way.

Multispec are too unreliable, and on most ships where they are used as a back-up system for escaping, there are usually better options that you are overlooking.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.03 00:40:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 03/03/2009 00:45:59
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Joe Logoffski
If you know target gang composition racials are the way to go, for a all-around setup multispecs are better (in general!).


False, actually.


That implies you are only jamming one target, i.e. a gank.

If you are up against 2 or more targets, its another story. Actually, jamming strategy decides what is best, and also ship types come into play, i.e. 4 minmatar / 4 caldari, its different.

Have to agree, BB or Falcon racials, Kitsune multis. If you go with racials and have more than 4, I'll usually put the 5th/6th multis unless its for gate engagements.

Derevaun Serauns
Posted - 2009.03.03 03:02:00 - [11]
 

Thanks for all the help! Now I know how to start stocking my ships.

Kavu
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.03 17:24:00 - [12]
 

or, just fit all of your pvp battleships with 2x eccm
and kill the ship jamming you

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.03.03 21:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Joe Logoffski
If you know target gang composition racials are the way to go, for a all-around setup multispecs are better (in general!).


False, actually. IIRC, it takes four jammers for X multispectrals to out-jam one correct racial and X-1 wrong racials. In other words, one correct + two wrong > three multi. If your priority is removing a single ship (of unknown race, of course) from the fight at all costs, fit multis. If your priority is jamming as much of the other gang as possible, fit racials.



Are you sure about that? I checked on EFT (unless their formula is wrong).

2nd set of numbers reflect overheated ECM

Falcon 3x SDA II + racials

vs

Megathron - no eccm (21 sensor str)

1 racial = 67.3% - 71.1
1 Racial + 1 wrong = 74.6% - 77.9
1 Racial + 2 Wrong = 80.3% - 83.1

Falcon 3x SDA II + Multispectrals

vs Same Mega

1 Multispectral = 44.8% - 47.4
2 Multispectral = 69.6% - 72.3
3 Multispectral = 83.2% - 85.4

3 multi's are slightly better, 1 is way worse, and 2 is a little worse.

with ECCM (41.2 sensor strength)

1 racial = 34.3% - 36.3
1 Racial + 1 wrong = 41.8% - 44
1 Racial + 2 Wrong = 48.5% - 50.7

1 multi = 22.9% - 24.2
2 multi = 40.5% - 42.5
3 multi = 54.1% - 56.4

The difference becomes greater with 4 or more jammers.

<3 jammers on target racials are better with at least 1 correct jammer.
>3 jammers multispectrals are slightly better.

Ofcourse you are giving up significant range to achieve this slight benefit which is the deal breaker for most situations since an ECM ship's tank is its range.

The Kitsune uses multispectrals because its locking range is too short to take advantage of the added range.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.03.03 22:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Are you sure about that? I checked on EFT (unless their formula is wrong).


Yep, those are exactly the numbers I'm thinking of.

With one jammer, racials are clearly superior.

With two jammers, racials have a moderate advantage.

With three jammers, multispectrals "win", but the difference is too small to be noticeable, and the range advantage gives it to racials.

With four jammers, multispectrals finally get a decisive win.

With five jammers, racials win again, because now you can expect to be using a second correct racial.

The pattern continues, of course.



So yes, racials are not 100% better, but they are the generally the best choice because of two factors:

1) Range, obviously. Racials take you over the threshold from "killable by most long-range ships" to "killable by Cerbs, Eagles, and Rokhs", if you have bookmarks set up for the fight.

2) Using exactly four ECM on a single target is rare. Unless you have a serious priority target (as I said), you're going to want to focus on removing as many people from the fight as possible, and putting a correct and an incorrect racial on each of two targets will do that better than putting two multispectrals on each. And often, if you're dumping more than 3 ECM on a target, you'll have more than four as well (possibly from multiple ECM ships), tipping it back in favor of racials.

Bastaardicious
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.03.03 22:21:00 - [15]
 

Racials are way better then multispecs imo. Multispecs have crap strength, and less range. Good ECM skills can make various racial jammers work on other races as well anyway. Minmater have a low sensor strength for example, easy to jam.... I'd say go with racials all the way, they rock.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.03.04 09:06:00 - [16]
 

The number Omarvelous posted seem correct, but here's the deal; a Falcon rarely only has to jam 1 target and THEN all of a sudden things get awkward for multis. Try having to jam a Raven, Mega and a geddon. Depending on who/where you fight a/my std loadout is 3 cald,2 gall, 1 amarr, 1 mini jammer (in fleets you'll obviously put more emphasis on Amarr).

My chance on jamming the Raven is in the 90's (again, no EFt handy so guesstimating), the Mega is about 80% chance to be jammed and the Geddon is about 80-83%. In other words, 1 falcon has a VERY high chance to work against these 3 targets at the same time keeping hem surpressed(dependant ofcourse on what you run into). I'd like to see multispecs do that, apart from the range issue ofc.

Biscuit0
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.04 12:18:00 - [17]
 

Multispecs go on EVERYTHING!

Yosarian
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.03.04 14:06:00 - [18]
 

Don't forget racials use less power and have better range:

T2 racial: 54km optimal, 57 activation cost
T2 multi: 36km optimal, 79 activation cost

And yes, meta level 4 ECM are generally better to use than the Tech 2's

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.04 17:19:00 - [19]
 

Depends on the ship really.

On a kitsune I don't use multi's because in my mind the *ONLY* reason to fly one (aside from roaming frigate gangs), is to jam out enemy ECM because of the superior locking time. So my kitsune's have all gravimetric jammers on them. For roaming I have all multi's (because I won't have bookmarks or anything anyway).

On a mobile or stationary falcon, the jam strength is high enough to fit racials and it has enough slots to do this. Same can be said for the Rook.

My scorpions are always anti-ECM so they always have full rack of Gravs.

My blackbirds are always mobile/throw-away so I can never count on range - I always want multi's here because of the lack of range, slot layout, etc. I'll probably be short range and I want to be flexible to handle small numbers of targets my roaming gang will tackle rather than 'dedicated' fits like anti-ECM scorp or anti-ECM kitsune.

So basically :

Falcon - Racials
Rook - Racials
Kitsune - Racials for defense, multi's for roaming.
Griffin/Blackbird - Multi's.
Scorpion - Racials or all gravimetric.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.03.04 17:21:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 04/03/2009 17:21:36
Originally by: Yosarian

And yes, meta level 4 ECM are generally better to use than the Tech 2's


No. They take less cap but they're also a lot more expensive (4 mil or so per module). I have like 30 ECM mods in my hangar - that **** adds up over time. You shouldn't ever cap out unless you're getting neut'd and if you're getting neut'd you're already dead. T2 is fine.

Edited to add : First thing you do on an ECM boat once you undock and get away from the station is to turn off "auto-repeat" on all the ECM modules. You want them to fire once - not repeat. You won't have any cap problems this way.


 

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