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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2009.02.26 16:33:00 - [31]
 

Have you considered ECM Bursts? Since the targets would be RRing they would all be within range of each other. Downside is ECM Burst is cap hungry, seems to attract friendly drone aggro, and forces you to be within blaster range. And iirc you can only fit one per ship... So you need multiple ECM Bursting ships... Who accidentally ECM each other... So they use FoF cruise missiles to do damage... and... ok it was a crappy idea.

Atari Sakura
Minmatar
Debitum Naturae
Posted - 2009.02.26 17:59:00 - [32]
 

Drop a mom.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.02.26 18:02:00 - [33]
 

fit one of the BS for long range (150ish km), he'll do no dps in gang unless targets are at 20+km but he can zap any tacklers going for your falcons or any falcon that didn't use range rigs or had a nice BM to warp to.

Using ECM bursts requires you do be in their group meaning you'll lose the ship. That and burst only removing a lock, it's not a jamming cycle like normal jammers. In other words; sounds good in theory but in reality it's not going to make a huge difference and you'll lose the ECM ship over it.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.02.27 05:21:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 27/02/2009 05:23:42
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 27/02/2009 05:22:41
Originally by: Omarvelous

In fact while I know an ECM burst would screw up our tackle (might need long range tackler support that tackles beyond burst range) - but a couple bs firing ecm bursts ought to cause enough disruption to give us an edge.


It breaks your locks too - assuming you're in range to fire it.

Basically, your problem is that not remote repping against a remote repping gang means even with just 4 remote reppers running (2 un-capped BS's) you're up against a 1500+ dps tank and you won't be able to break that faster than they can break yours unless they are jammed and therefore not doing any DPS to you in return.

Or out of range.

Remote repping is pure win. With 5 RR ships, I can output (@800 dps each say), 4000 DPS and as long as I can maintain cap I can tank 3000 or so damage per second (8 remote reps). That's while often fielding an ECCM rating of 50+.

If you do not outnumber them you will lose and any tactic you choose here (neuts or otherwise), would work better if you were also remote repping.

Good luck however.

Draeca
Tharri and Co.
Posted - 2009.02.27 06:46:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 06:46:57
Also, it's better NOT to fit a huge buffertank with RR, but to fit for high resists and one plate for those falcons that jam the guys who are repping you. Having a huge load of raw HP but low resists makes repping a lot less efficient.

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:24:00 - [36]
 

way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:32:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 11:47:27

Originally by: Omarvelous
I have had a couple fights against a corp that does extensive RR BS, and I'm impressed. I've looked at their KB and the few BS they've lost were fit with:

- MWD (I assume to stay close and get to target)
- Cap Injector (keep repping)
- Armor buffer tanked
- ECCM fitted when possible.
- 2x Large remote armor reps - even on ship with only 1 spare utility slot (ie Megathron), a gun was sacrificed to maintain 2x large remote reps (6x Neutron Cannons 2x Large RR).

I'm trying to come up with a viable counter. Part of my problem is a lot of my BS pilots are shield tankers (I myself started out as a shield tanker and have crossed trained armor/Gallente ships) so setting up a RR gang of my own is difficult.

- Can I setup a RR shield rep gang with Ravens? I would love to see any fit available. If shield RR sucks vs armor RR, explain why.
- I believe I should have changed targets when their RR was beating our combined DPS. I assume when RR - you manually lock up your own team's primary and try to rep - so switching targets would buy us 5-6 seconds of damage before they switched to the new primary. Problem is our local tanks were utter crap under focused fire and I can't switch fast enough before I've lost guys.
- Both sides have ECM, no Falcon advantage.
- I'm considering the use of tracking disruptors to lower their damage. Is it worthwhile to experiment with TD when its a BS vs. BS fight?
- I think a RR Domi would be useful - and less obvious than a logistics cruiser. I think a sniper BS in our gang to fire on hostile falcons would be useful in freeing up our ecm to try to break up their RR (which is tough with their eccm).
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?

What are some popular RR BS? I've tried an armor tanking raven and the ship lacks the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, siege II torps, and a pair of large RR. I don't know if I'll be able to get much a RR gang myself considering my guys fly so many mix tanked ships in fleet.


How do you fight competent RR BS pilots? Its a bit of a new area for me, since most of my BS fights have been against localized tanks, and my own gang flies mixed tanks.
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIILLLL!!!


1.) Armor buffer tank (3x trimarks, DC2, 2x EAMN T2s, plates/hardeners)
2.) You don't need weapon upgrades (This is important, if you can do 250 dps at 150 km its enough - that means 4 ships doing 1000 dps to 150km and 40 ships doing 10000 dps)
3.) Meds ECCM, Sensorboosting, Point
4.) Highs Weapons, 2x remote armor reppers
5.) NO LOCAL REPPERS, EVER!

And the support ships, tacklers (HICS & Inties)

Also logistic ships and triage carriers are viable choice too.

And use some dominixs just for remote repping and giving remote ECCM/sensor boosting/tracking lins and providing cap 800s if someone needs them.

Best ships for RR BS gang are Apocs, Tempies, Megas and Rokhs. Fit rails/beams/arties. Short and long range ammo.

The tactic of using RR BS gang is difficult and it needs dedicated group of pilots and great FC.


Shield tanking fails just because you can't fit ECCMx2, 2x Sensorboosters and tank.

And always call for repping when you are getting targeted - if you wait untill armor - youre already dead.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:32:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:45:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Medium Range BS + ECM > Remote repping gangs.

DO NOT TAKE HEAVY SHIPS WITHIN 30KM, ONLY INTYS FOR POINTS ETC

You might not kill them (deaggro/log/dock) but you will certainly not lose anything. Most if not all remote rep gangs are close range fitted, if they are not there tanks are generally pap.

However my favorite thing to do with this type of gubbins is to completely ignore them, they will gank enough noobs in undocks of low sec stations to keep themselves entertained.


Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.


Megas with optimal of 3 km? Twisted Evil

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:47:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.


not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:49:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 11:51:31
Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.


not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
Sure... Please, fit SBs and ECMs and come to south. It would be a pure pleasure to crush a massive comedy fitted BS gang in seconds.

First check the info of ECM bursts.

Then compare its strenght to BS with 2x ECCMs fitted.

EFT force is very heavy on this one..

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:51:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: rubico1337 on 27/02/2009 11:52:45
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.


not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
Sure... Please, fit SBs and ECMs and come to south. It would be a pure pleasure to crush a massive comedy fitted BS gang in seconds.


you fail to understand what situation the OP is in, its not all about you and your undersized epeen

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:54:00 - [43]
 

ECM Burst T2 has a 9.5% chance to jam Megathron fitted with 2x T2 ECCMs.

ECM Burst T2 cycle is 30 seconds.

You can active only one of them at the time.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 11:58:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: rubico1337

you fail to understand what situation the OP is in, its not all about you and your undersized epeen
Way to counter RR BS gang?

Bring a bigger gang and enough Falcons. No other real way. Maybe 5 Titans doomsdaying but that's bout it.

Draeca
Tharri and Co.
Posted - 2009.02.27 12:12:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:36
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:26
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.


Megas with optimal of 3 km? Twisted Evil

Oh, I thought RR setups were the best when used with short range setups, the range where people are actually taking and dealing damage. Good luck breaking a short range RR BS gang by the gates and stations with a sniper gang.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 12:16:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 12:16:27
Originally by: Draeca
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:36
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:26
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.


Megas with optimal of 3 km? Twisted Evil

Oh, I thought RR setups were the best when used with short range setups, the range where people are actually taking and dealing damage. Good luck breaking a short range RR BS gang by the gates and stations with a sniper gang.

Good luck trying to have fight in short range RR BS gang with long range RR gang. You sit there, we wreck the havoc on you and you can only leave or take the punch.

Dunno about low sec, but who cares about low sec anyway? Laughing

Let me add that the alpha is all that matters. Not your DPS.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.02.27 13:29:00 - [47]
 

Good luck trying to fight off a short range RR gang with your long range RR gang if they warp on top of you. In other words, it depends on the situation.

Short range RR gives the best defense (possibly coupled with 1-2 sniper RR's to take out ECM boats), short range RR also gives the best chance fighting against normal roaming gangs. Both short and long range have their place and uses, short range has less 'defense gaps' and has the option to jump into a gatecamp. Until (ofcourse) you get much bigger fleets where long range simply punches through RR repping and they only have to rep the sporadic incoming dps as they're outranging their adversaries. But then that's always the case; bring enough numbers and RR stops working.


Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.27 14:13:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 27/02/2009 14:14:55
The level of wtf in this thread just went supernova.

The majority of remote repping gangs are short range fitted, in the very extreme they are range turret fitted, very very extreme since it gimps their ability to do the very thing they set out to achieve.

You cannot and never have, been able to buffer tank 30k armour with decent resists and long range / high dps fit a bs. Its one or the other.

EDIT: are you talking about fleet fit bs with one or two remote reps fitted? cos mate that isn't a remote rep gang, and if im honest throws a kipper to the op who is attempting to deal with station huggers.



Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.02.27 16:25:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:

a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.


not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed


No, this is comedy. Also, half the situations you'll run into your typical RR gang they won't be in a spot where you can engage smartbombs (ie, on the gate at 0, on a station at 0). Even if they could and even discounting the 30 second timer on ECM bursts, you can fire 5 ECM bursts with a scorpion and still only jam 1-2 people. They don't work well on battleships that have ECCM fitted and they don't prevent relocking.

And what the guy was saying about resists vs buffer is 100%. You want a small amount of buffer so you don't get alpha'd and survive long enough for RR gang to cycle to you but you want to max out resists and if possible, have some hardeners in there you can overload if necessary. This is part of why its easier to do armor RR's than shield RR's - the base resists on armor tanks are better than they are on shields. The rokh *could* be a very nice RR ship but since it doesn't get a damage bonus and gives up two turrets the slightly better tanking isn't worth the loss of DPS.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.02.27 22:08:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 27/02/2009 14:14:55
The level of wtf in this thread just went supernova.

The majority of remote repping gangs are short range fitted, in the very extreme they are range turret fitted, very very extreme since it gimps their ability to do the very thing they set out to achieve.

You cannot and never have, been able to buffer tank 30k armour with decent resists and long range / high dps fit a bs. Its one or the other.

EDIT: are you talking about fleet fit bs with one or two remote reps fitted? cos mate that isn't a remote rep gang, and if im honest throws a kipper to the op who is attempting to deal with station huggers.



You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.




250 dps to 150 km range with 3x trimarks and 25k buffer with 70+ resists. When enemy gang drops into you you have your drones and webbed targets will be hit even with rails/beams/artillery.

Typical 40 man RR BS gang has that 10 000 dps to 150 km. You can nearly double that dps to short range when you can launch your drones to short range targets.

That means ass load of heavy drones on your smart bomb fitted battleships trying to use your smarties at gate (5km range limit) Laughing


Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.02.28 01:11:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Tzar''rim on 28/02/2009 01:11:17
Let me clarify something to you by quoting the OP:

Quote:
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?


He's not talking about bigass fleet stuff as (as I said earlier) numbers will always crush RR. He's asking about small gang engagements so please, keep your fleet tactics out of this.


Dirk Mortice
Posted - 2009.02.28 02:40:00 - [52]
 

ECM is the way forward to be honest.

Alternatively, good FC'ing and fast reaction times, in combination with good alpha/dps (need to take a buffered BS down in 10-20secs) First, primary somebody, they'll probably get repped up, keep the dps going then lock up 3-4 other hostiles and asap switch to a different target, the aim is to melt the new target before the hostiles can lock it up and get reps on. This requires speed and having all your fleet on the ball ofc.

Another option is to spread your fire somewhat, lock up and spread your dps over 4-5 targets, the idea is to make all of these targets start shouting that they are primary, this causes confusion and spreads the remote reps. Again, at short notice change to a single target to kill it while their reps are spread out.

loldongs III
Perkone
Posted - 2009.02.28 05:59:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: loldongs III on 28/02/2009 06:01:22
Originally by: Omarvelous
I have had a couple fights against a corp that does extensive RR BS, and I'm impressed. I've looked at their KB and the few BS they've lost were fit with:

- MWD (I assume to stay close and get to target)
- Cap Injector (keep repping)
- Armor buffer tanked
- ECCM fitted when possible.
- 2x Large remote armor reps - even on ship with only 1 spare utility slot (ie Megathron), a gun was sacrificed to maintain 2x large remote reps (6x Neutron Cannons 2x Large RR).

I'm trying to come up with a viable counter. Part of my problem is a lot of my BS pilots are shield tankers (I myself started out as a shield tanker and have crossed trained armor/Gallente ships) so setting up a RR gang of my own is difficult.

- Can I setup a RR shield rep gang with Ravens? I would love to see any fit available. If shield RR sucks vs armor RR, explain why.
- I believe I should have changed targets when their RR was beating our combined DPS. I assume when RR - you manually lock up your own team's primary and try to rep - so switching targets would buy us 5-6 seconds of damage before they switched to the new primary. Problem is our local tanks were utter crap under focused fire and I can't switch fast enough before I've lost guys.
- Both sides have ECM, no Falcon advantage.
- I'm considering the use of tracking disruptors to lower their damage. Is it worthwhile to experiment with TD when its a BS vs. BS fight?
- I think a RR Domi would be useful - and less obvious than a logistics cruiser. I think a sniper BS in our gang to fire on hostile falcons would be useful in freeing up our ecm to try to break up their RR (which is tough with their eccm).
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?

What are some popular RR BS? I've tried an armor tanking raven and the ship lacks the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, siege II torps, and a pair of large RR. I don't know if I'll be able to get much a RR gang myself considering my guys fly so many mix tanked ships in fleet.


How do you fight competent RR BS pilots? Its a bit of a new area for me, since most of my BS fights have been against localized tanks, and my own gang flies mixed tanks.


The underlined portions are bad.
You do not remove turrets/missiles to fit more remote reps. You change ships if you need to. Remote shield boosters take far too much cpu to be fit as easily as remote armor repairers (which is why no one really uses them in rr bs gangs).

If you do a raven for rr bs, your best option is to use cruise and some kind of ewar in your mids. Tracking disruptors aren't a bad choice but of course they won't work against drones or missiles.

The easiest things to do versus rr bs are (sort of in order of ease):
a) split them up
b) bring your own rr bs
c) jam them
d) alpha them (volley, and destroy them before their friends can lock and repair)
e) energy neutralizers

The blob mentality is okay I guess if you have the people for it.

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.01 00:12:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Coronae Borealis
ECM Burst T2 has a 9.5% chance to jam Megathron fitted with 2x T2 ECCMs.

ECM Burst T2 cycle is 30 seconds.

You can active only one of them at the time.


ECM burst is an AOE wepon, if your in a blob its hits everyone(read RR gang)

if you have 8 of em firing off at the same time you can jam multiple targets

+stop setting up the worst case scenario and calling all scenarios fail just based off of the one you made up


rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.01 00:20:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Coronae Borealis
You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.




troll? ok it makes sense now

5/10 for being somewhat believable, there are some people who exist are 0.0 macho idiots like you make yourself out to be

Draeca
Tharri and Co.
Posted - 2009.03.01 08:07:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Coronae Borealis
You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.

Why would anyone fly battleships in zero when it is the perfect place for t1 cruiser mayhem!
Only good thing in BSs is their ability to tank sentries, otherwise they're useless and boring.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.03.02 15:14:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 15:14:43
Some good answers here guys. I tried neuts and high dps against an evenly matched RR gang. Every time I overheated my guns we seemed to overpower the RR - however it was a slow process, and I couldn't maintain it without burning out my guns. Sadly - although I clicked on stop overheat - my guns overheated again and burnt out when the target was in structure. It was enough for his gang to rr him while he deagressed and jumped out. I almost lost my plated mega with ions and a heavy neut, however our falcon managed to get me out in structure.

It was a draw with no losses. Had my overheating responded properly (honestly CCP make the overheat button - SMALLER Rolling EyesRolling Eyes) I think we could have broken the primary - I may have also lost my ship doing so. Laughing

It was a fun fight even without kills/losses - in hind site I wish I had rotated primaries. The overheating made me feel like we could break the primary - but it would have been more efficient to rotate primaries. More practice will improve results I'm sure.

Aoe weapons are a consideration. A few ecm bursts, and perhaps splitting fire intermittently to confuse the hostiles on who to RR - then focused fire again, might be another tactic to consider.


Kavu
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.03.03 17:54:00 - [58]
 

domi's with neuts and rr's and use drone dps on the primary and neuts on the others?


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