open All Channels
seplocked Warfare & Tactics
blankseplocked The Bleeding Death of FAC WAR.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2009.02.27 17:44:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 27/02/2009 17:45:37
Originally by: Aynen
...If I find one I try to convert it. If an enemy comes along, I either flee and look for the next plex, or I engage and lose my ship (have never won a pvp fight so far). This, no doubt, is because I'm not very good, and I'm flying cheap ships....


I can understand this. We all started somewhere, but the actual process of learning starts at loosing ships not farming ISK.

a) FW was not intended to be a farming environment
b) Cheap ships = loosing , not true. Especially for lvl1 FW plexes, cause t2 ships cannot enter those.

If your main aim is to get ISK than FW is wrong for you. If you looking for pvp experience than FW is very good. Of course you also can go to Amamake and have some Rifter fun there.
Originally by: Aynen
So for all those players 'risk' becomes 'garanteed fail'. And after a period of 'garanteed fail' comes a period of grinding to pay for it
Yes. As far for grinding, I heard BS spawns will soon arrive in low-sec, which means quick and good ISK injection for your wallet between periods of pvp. As far for failing...if you cont. failing you probably not learning enough. Sounds harsh but may be true. Try, ask ppl for help, try again, think, try again etc....

Originally by: Aynen
.. how long would you enjoy that, had you not been as good as you are?

Real enjoyment comes not from easy tasks. If everything would be easy , enjoyment would be meaningless.








Parmenides Elea
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2009.02.27 18:42:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Aynen
For me, someone who has very little pvp experience, even though I've been in the game for years, FW looks like this: I take a tech 1 frigate (because I know that by the end of the day I'll have lost it) and I scan for defensive plexes. If I find one I try to convert it. If an enemy comes along, I either flee and look for the next plex, or I engage and lose my ship (have never won a pvp fight so far). This, no doubt, is because I'm not very good, and I'm flying cheap ships. But for many players, this is the daily reality. You don't win many fights, and the vast majority of players aren't top guns. So for all those players 'risk' becomes 'garanteed fail'. And after a period of 'garanteed fail' comes a period of grinding to pay for it. Now for all the better players out there, how long would you enjoy that, had you not been as good as you are?


TBH thats where you're going wrong. IF you are a newer player with limited income don't try and solo plexes because you ARE going to die! Why not, and I know this is a bit weird for an mmo, try teaming up with a few other younger players in militia and plex in a group. You will get better fights, stand a much better chance of keeping your ship and you're kills will improve. there is also the option of joining one of the many many corps within fw that provide you with free t1 ships and corp mates to fly with!

Rewards do NOT need to be increased because doing that moves us away from what FW is all about, and thats PVP. It is the only thing bar piracey that requires nothing but absolute pewpew.

Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.27 18:46:00 - [63]
 

Aynen,

My corp is recruiting, come join our ingame channel for a chat.

dark-rising

Warm regards,

Mitch

Parmenides Elea
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2009.02.27 18:50:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Aynen,

My corp is recruiting, come join our ingame channel for a chat.

dark-rising

Warm regards,

Mitch



I can't recommend these guys enough, please do check them out aynen, your fw experience will greatly improve if you do.

Arila Vasala
Posted - 2009.02.27 19:20:00 - [65]
 

What makes facwar pvpers so special that they deserve more reward than other pvp'ers? Just out of intrest.

When you lose ships you have to grind isk to buy more, welcome to eve pvp, you must be new here.

Aynen
Posted - 2009.02.27 19:26:00 - [66]
 

I have a second account, and I use it to do dogfights with myself, and test out ship setups. That way I can get a feel for what module does exactly what in which situation. It's not as hard as a real pvp dogfight, but it helps to understand the game mechanics in practice rather than theory.

I think it's obvious that eve favors those who band together, something I'm not so partial to. Although, Mitch, I am considering your offer.

Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.27 19:28:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 27/02/2009 19:28:30
Originally by: Aynen
I think it's obvious that eve favors those who band together, something I'm not so partial to. Although, Mitch, I am considering your offer.


Your absolutely right Aynen, this game is not geared towards solo play. thanks for the rec Parmenides, much appreciated.

Joza Gulikoza
The first genesis
Posted - 2009.02.27 21:12:00 - [68]
 

FW is roleplaying that's why it should be different from any other pvp in eve. Why do you think it should be the same? Why have it then?

The idea behind not allowing enemy militia dock in captured FW stations is a start that would put a meaning to capturing systems. Right now they're all the same except for one line of text in the corner of my screen. Why not give us some advantages for capturing systems?

Parmenides Elea
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2009.02.28 11:30:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Joza Gulikoza
FW is roleplaying that's why it should be different from any other pvp in eve. Why do you think it should be the same? Why have it then?

The idea behind not allowing enemy militia dock in captured FW stations is a start that would put a meaning to capturing systems. Right now they're all the same except for one line of text in the corner of my screen. Why not give us some advantages for capturing systems?


Show me exactly where it says FW is only for roleplaying? Just because you choose to roleplay it does not mean you have to inflict that choice on others.

FW pvp IS different to other forms of pvp in the game, let me explain.

0.0 - FW is NOT just about POS warfare, bubble camps and who has the bigger blob and if you think we blob you please go spend some time in 0.0, the stuff we send your way would be considered small gang!

Piracey - FW allows you to pvp without worrying about sec hits and gate guns, whilst allowing you to do some piracey if you so desire. (Theres that choice aghain, I know its gonna be hard for you to understand!)

Empire war dec - FW gives you so much more targets and targets that are actually willing to fight back. With empire war decs most of the time is spent camping stations waiting for your prey to undock.

I have tried all three of these forms of pvp and NONE OF THEM compare to level of excitment and quantity of pvp you get with FW.

If you denied docking rights to enemy militia you would end up with all the caldari in tama and all the galente in oms and one huge mega blob fight in the middle, nothing else. Allowing corps the freedom to move and setup plexing/pvp bases of operation deep into enemy territory only increases the chance of pvp and that sir is exactly what faction war is all about!

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.02.28 11:36:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 28/02/2009 11:37:02
Originally by: Joza Gulikoza

The idea behind not allowing enemy militia dock in captured FW stations is a start that would put a meaning to capturing systems. Right now they're all the same except for one line of text in the corner of my screen. Why not give us some advantages for capturing systems?


I still think this is the worst idea ever. I personally think some form of added rewards could be effective to entice more players into FW though, but not with denying docking rights.

Joza Gulikoza
The first genesis
Posted - 2009.03.01 08:33:00 - [71]
 

No need to tell me I know what 0.0 is like because I have spent the last two years all over the place but I could tell you that you may have picked the wrong targets for your empire wardecs that let themselves get camped in. I experienced many fun wardecs and none of them involved camping stations. FW reminds me of alliance wardecs sort of what privateers do with exception to somewhat hindered access to a part of high sec.

What I like about FW is a lot of enemies all around so you don't have to travel far to get a fight, there are plenty of gangs to join and there is no silly mandatory POS ops, ops that last for hours/days/weeks, weird rules and politics.

I'm not trying to argue here, there is no need for attacks. What is needed is not allow FW to become stagnant. Change is needed to keep the thing going or else everyone who will have tried it will say ok so this is all there is, now back to what ever else I was doing. At least try to make it attractive to more people and give them incentives to keep coming back.

Raiven Parker
The Athiest Syndicate
Posted - 2009.03.01 11:12:00 - [72]
 

- Add a Hulk sized support ships that acts as a mobile ship hangar and repair base. Allow that it can hold 3 cruisers and 5 frigates, and that it is Cov Op cloakable and cheap enough to actually consider using and skill accessible to pre carrier lvl pilots.

- Add a Carrier sized version of the above logistics ship.

bwahahhaa. so basicly you just want new and better toys than the rest (non-fw) us?

Good luck


Droog 1
Posted - 2009.03.01 12:25:00 - [73]
 

If people want rewards they should run missions or mine. If they want pew pew they should go to black Rise.

Stop confusing faction warfare and pvp with mission running.

Aynen
Posted - 2009.03.01 21:03:00 - [74]
 

yesterday I got the courage to fly a tech 2 ship into FW combat for once, figuring I'd stand more of a chance of being usefull that way. It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber. In total, gear included, it might have cost me something like 40 mil. So I scanned for a plex, found one, went into it, got some help from a falcon and some other ship I can't recall right now. A bit later some cruiser-sized enemies flew in (with another falcon) and they blew us to smithereens in less than 30 seconds in spite of both me and our falcon trying to jam them. It took less than half an hour from the moment of entering FW space to being destroyed. At this rate I simply cannot financially support my FW endeavors. I can fly cheaper ships, and stand even less of a chance, but then will I ever learn how to win?
The alternative is to stick to minor plexes, where currently I die a lot too.

It's occured to me that perhaps FW would go a lot better if everyone had propper teachers. Since it's unlikely that there will ever be enough teachers to teach each individual player, I was thinking how usefull it would be if the EVE website featured in depth tuturial videos of how to properly conduct pvp combat. CCP has proven to have great in-game video production capability and they could even invite top players to hold 'master classes' using this video format. I'd opt for in-game lessons (which are allready being held) but I think the video would reach a far wider audience costing less manpower.

If that is added, more players would know what they are doing in factional warfare, and the overall quality of combat encounters would improve.

Hariya
Posted - 2009.03.01 22:04:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: chatgris
CCP doesn't want FW to be any better... I read a post/article from a dev on these forums stating quite clearly that they consider it a noob activity that should only be a stepping stone into 0.0, and nothing more.

Am I bitter? Yes. Is fw still better than 0.0? Hell yeah :)


If that is true then they are flat wrong. Neutral

I joined factional warfare to get some pew pew time, and I have got precisely that. I do not wish to go into 0.0 to be honest, ever. Neutral The reason for that is that I can not stand the politics and the endless rules that the 0.0 alliances and companies enforce on you. I just want to undock, find a target and pewpew. I don't even see 0.0 as a goal at all to be honest. I see it as a step backwards. I see 0.0 and especially the sovereignity of the systems as the cancer of Eve. I am not after being safe. I am after avoiding dull and brain aching gameplay.

The factional warfare could be really cool with some small tweaks (for instance what the OP suggests). In fact, with a few small tweaks it would be so superior to 0.0 that the devs would have to figure out what on earth is the rest of the galaxy for. They should not be afraid of that...

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.03.01 23:04:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Aynen
It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber.

I found your problem.

P.S. you can buy, T2 fit, and lose an unrigged battlecruiser for less than 40 million isk.

Aynen
Posted - 2009.03.02 09:43:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Aynen
It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber.

I found your problem.

P.S. you can buy, T2 fit, and lose an unrigged battlecruiser for less than 40 million isk.


I know how unpopular the stealth bomber is. I had figured that as long as it's in a group it could do it's thing, especially with the Falcon around. Unfortunately in practice it wasn't the case. (the enemy falcon was simply better)

Parmenides Elea
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2009.03.02 10:25:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Aynen
yesterday I got the courage to fly a tech 2 ship into FW combat for once, figuring I'd stand more of a chance of being usefull that way. It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber. In total, gear included, it might have cost me something like 40 mil. So I scanned for a plex, found one, went into it, got some help from a falcon and some other ship I can't recall right now. A bit later some cruiser-sized enemies flew in (with another falcon) and they blew us to smithereens in less than 30 seconds in spite of both me and our falcon trying to jam them. It took less than half an hour from the moment of entering FW space to being destroyed. At this rate I simply cannot financially support my FW endeavors. I can fly cheaper ships, and stand even less of a chance, but then will I ever learn how to win?
The alternative is to stick to minor plexes, where currently I die a lot too.

It's occured to me that perhaps FW would go a lot better if everyone had propper teachers. Since it's unlikely that there will ever be enough teachers to teach each individual player, I was thinking how usefull it would be if the EVE website featured in depth tuturial videos of how to properly conduct pvp combat. CCP has proven to have great in-game video production capability and they could even invite top players to hold 'master classes' using this video format. I'd opt for in-game lessons (which are allready being held) but I think the video would reach a far wider audience costing less manpower.

If that is added, more players would know what they are doing in factional warfare, and the overall quality of combat encounters would improve.


OK lets look first at your ship choice. Stealth bombers excel in groups sitting cloacked on a gate with a couple of tacklers. They fit target painters and remote sensor dampers in the mids to increase damage whilst stopping targets from hitting them. SB need to stay at range because they are ridiculously fragile so taking one into a plex is probably not the best idea. OK having a falcon present is handy but as jams are luck based there is no garentee that the falcon pilot (no mater how skilled he is) will get that jam so you need to look at EHP/tank and DPS and the solo Stealth bomber gives you non of those.

Let me now re-iterate the first rule of pvp "If you can't afford to loose it don't fly it!". So if you cannot financially support loosing stealth bombers then don't fly them!

Your next arguement is that you need to fly t2 ships to be effective, well frankly that is rubbish! A few weeks ago wolfy was on a small roam in assault frigates and we came across a solo myrmidon, easy pickings we thought. How wrong we were! A single tech 1 bc which probably cost the pilot maybe 60m but very cleverly fitted and well flown was able to force us to disengage and continue our roam. A gang of t1 cruisers can be very effective, look at the current caldari WEE caracels.

As for personal teachers in eve, there are! They are called corps and the sooner you realise this is not a solo game the better your game experience will be. CCP made videos will not help as pvp is so varied and setups so unpredictable you can only really learn by doing, having someone more experienced than you guiding your steps is what corp mates are for so use them!

Dictum Factum
Skill Training
Posted - 2009.03.02 11:22:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Aynen
You don't win many fights...


Well, somebody is. Hard to lose if nobody wins.

That said, learning to PvP will take a few ships. Once you learn, it will still take ships, but you will tend to understand why you lost them. That also ties in to the mantra of only flying what you can afford to lose. Tec 1 ships, fully insured, help quite a bit in taking the sting out of a loss. For example, you could have lost a Tec 2 fit battle cruiser (or two) for the cost of your stealth bomber. Also, to go along with what many have said, a good corporation will go a long way toward you learning your way around in Faction Warfare. Taking the time to find such a corp would be time well spent.

Dark Rising is recruiting, by the way.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.03.02 11:48:00 - [80]
 

FW is war and as such is not profitable except for the people providing the weapons of war, just as in real life (On that note, please stop with the incessant calls for rewards, sort the mechanics and loopholes first and THEN a reward system can be discussed).

FW IS going to be addressed at some point, until then all we can do is pew each other to the best of our ability and keep making lists of the things we think would increase the fun.

T2 ships and modules are not better by default thanks to the size restrictions in the mechanics, opening the door for a lot more people to participate and enjoy themselves.

A properly fitted T1 frigate can easily destroy ten times its worth in ships if flown responsibly so cost is not an issue.
FW is the poster child of the meme "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose".

A few points to help with the economic side of war:
1. In most cases a few hours a week burning through level 3 missions is enough to keep you afloat.
2. Kill belt rats as you move around .. the bounties are low'ish but they add up when it is done consistently.
3. Buy a researched blueprint for your favourite ship and build them yourself, most player corporations can/will provide ships at cost.
4. Bigger is not better anymore. Resist the urge to use a BS when a cruiser will do the job just as well.
5. Join a player corporation. It will not only provide you with a pool of experience to tap but wingmen to fly with and cheaper ships to field.

I for one hate the current state of 0.0, and even though I miss it at times a simple fun/cost;time (a variation of the cost/benefit) analysis keeps me in FW.
The war may look like it's bleeding profusely, but it is the blood of innocents as the "I don't know how to PvP" crowd gets their PvP cherries popped left, right and center .. this is a good thing!

Sobic
The Flaming Sideburn's
Waterboard
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:47:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Sobic on 02/03/2009 20:49:06
Edited by: Sobic on 02/03/2009 20:47:52
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Aynen
It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber.

I found your problem.

P.S. you can buy, T2 fit, and lose an unrigged battlecruiser for less than 40 million isk.


His challenge looks to be PVP skill based and not what he's flying. If a few cruisers warp in and are able to kill your stealth bomber then your doing it all wrong.
Think of SB's as snipers, hit and run, always aligned with a collection of pre-made BM's ready to rock.

You (Aynen) say the SB is not very popular, well that's only because to be GOOD in one you need to play it a specific way. If your patient and creative in understanding how to leverage a 3D battle field. Stealth Bombers can ruin peoples day quiet nicely.
Which applies to every other ship in the game.

EVE is a specialist game, be great at SOMETHING, don't try to be a jack of all trades if you want to go it solo/small gang.

Baji Core
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:24:00 - [82]
 

My only complaints about FW are:
- Lag
- People don't want to fight unless they are in a large gang.

Players are just too scared of losing ships. That's a problem with PVP in general.

Aynen
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:29:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Sobic
Edited by: Sobic on 02/03/2009 20:49:06
Edited by: Sobic on 02/03/2009 20:47:52
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Aynen
It was a tech 2 fitted stealth bomber.

I found your problem.

P.S. you can buy, T2 fit, and lose an unrigged battlecruiser for less than 40 million isk.


His challenge looks to be PVP skill based and not what he's flying. If a few cruisers warp in and are able to kill your stealth bomber then your doing it all wrong.
Think of SB's as snipers, hit and run, always aligned with a collection of pre-made BM's ready to rock.

You (Aynen) say the SB is not very popular, well that's only because to be GOOD in one you need to play it a specific way. If your patient and creative in understanding how to leverage a 3D battle field. Stealth Bombers can ruin peoples day quiet nicely.
Which applies to every other ship in the game.

EVE is a specialist game, be great at SOMETHING, don't try to be a jack of all trades if you want to go it solo/small gang.


I certainly won't try to claim I'm a skilled pilot. And the Stealth Bomber is certainly not the easiest thing to fly either. When the cruisers came in I was at semi long range. I knew that if I'd fire my missles and warp out or cloack up, they wouldn't hit by the time they arrived and with the falcon on my back I thought I could stay and fight since I hoped the enemy wouldn't be able to get a lock. I guess bombers really aren't built for sustained fighting. Getting the practice I need in these ships in a FW environment will be very costly.

Today an alt of mine flew in a fleet, that went over to Tama, didn't find anything there, flew back to villore, and at the villore gate in OMS we encountered a fleet which destroyed me before I could do anything usefull. I was flying a griffin with 3 ECMs and a warp disrupter on it. Figured it'd be usefull in fleet battles. Guess not...

Explain to me though how I can learn anything from a 5 second fight?

Vajrabhairava
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.03.06 09:33:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Vajrabhairava on 06/03/2009 09:33:35
FW outside of plexes is IMHO fine and requires no fixing. Laughing

FW plexes - with designated aggro tanker kiteing at 50-100km, one on the coin and everyone else at optimals from a jetcan at the warp in point - that's the bit to fix. ( And if no hostiles show, it's boring. ugh )

So maybe require all NPCs be killed like someone suggested, and look at bounties on the hostile NPC's (right now they are usually considered not worth the ammo, except the elite frigates that might be able to hurt your speed tanker).

Bounties could offset the lack of revenue that Carebears get from missions and 0.0 people get from Ratting/Moon Mining/Pinata Popping, as travel + scanning + 20 min going in circles represents a lot of opportunity cost ( ISK wise and often PvP wise).

Lastly, have a lot less NPCs in each plex, but give them with the new AI from W-Space Twisted Evil

Phem Nuwan
K Directorate
Posted - 2009.03.06 13:39:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Phem Nuwan on 06/03/2009 13:39:23
Quote:
For me, someone who has very little pvp experience, even though I've been in the game for years, FW looks like this: I take a tech 1 frigate (because I know that by the end of the day I'll have lost it) and I scan for defensive plexes. If I find one I try to convert it. If an enemy comes along, I either flee and look for the next plex, or I engage and lose my ship (have never won a pvp fight so far). This, no doubt, is because I'm not very good, and I'm flying cheap ships. But for many players, this is the daily reality. You don't win many fights, and the vast majority of players aren't top guns. So for all those players 'risk' becomes 'garanteed fail'. And after a period of 'garanteed fail' comes a period of grinding to pay for it. Now for all the better players out there, how long would you enjoy that, had you not been as good as you are?


This is exactly my experience in FW, I'm a one-month old player without a huge bank account and all FW is:
1. Tedious 10-20 minutes plex capturing with no reward.
2. Losing ships and isk with no reward.

I'm using it as an opportunity to learn PvP while I train my core skills and then I'm off to 0.0 and make some big bucks. I'll be back in 6-12 months (if I'm still playing EVE then) with some actual cash and skills to do solo PvP.

All you 2-3 year old players with Billions in isk and all combat skills at level 5 are being complete *******s I find.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.06 14:23:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Aynen
I certainly won't try to claim I'm a skilled pilot. And the Stealth Bomber is certainly not the easiest thing to fly either. When the cruisers came in I was at semi long range.

How long is "semi-long"? In particular, what range were you at, and what was the maximum range of your missiles? The actual numbers are very important as words are obviously subject to interpretation - if you fly mainly blaster/AC frigates then you might consider 15km as "semi-long" when for a stealth-bomber that's "ridiculously in your face" close-range.

In particular, you should ideally never decloak and engage a stealth bomber within 30km of any enemies - more if they have interceptors nearby. As you can decloak at full align speed, and your own movement doesn't affect the accuracy of your missiles at all, you should always be aligned to something, and thus able to warp out immediately you hit the button. Combining this with paying attention to the position of enemies, you should never let an enemy ship get within "point" range, and so always are able to warp out if things start to go wrong.

Of course, you need to be aware of the capabilities of the enemy ships - and in particular, whether they can hit you or not. Moas and Caracals are probably the only two T1 cruisers that can hit out to 100km range, so if there are none of those in the enemy fleet, then staying 100km away you should be immune. If there are those enemies present, then the first thing to do is look for the pulsing of sensor-booster animations; without lock-range boosting mods, these ships cannot target out to 100km, so you will be safe. (Admittedly, they could fit signal amplifiers or lock range rigs that won't give an animation, but these are both extremely unlikely on that sort of ship). If they have the SB animations going, prepare to be locked and targeted by them. Use your own sensor damps on them first, if you can, to reduce their range such that they can't lock you.

If you can't do this, be expecting incoming fire at any point. With Moa's in particular, they will hit you instantly, so this is something to be very wary of. A sniper Moa is likely to hit with a volley of up to 528 damage, and will fire roughly every 3.5 seconds. Your Nemesis can absorb 1500-1800 Kin/Therm damage from the Spike ammo - so it will be destroyed in 3 or 4 volleys, or in other words 7-10 seconds after you first get hit. With hostile Moas on the field, you must already have your exit steps planned, rehearsed and ready to put into action. Be aligned to some celestial, and after firing your missiles at the primary select the celestial again so that you can hit "warp" in a second or so, before the next volley hits.

Caracals are potentially even more potent; each volley of their heavy missiles will do up to 1767 damage, which will be roughly halved by your signature and speed. You can thus take only two (or perhaps three) volleys before needing to warp out. One thing that makes the Caracal easier to live with is the delayed damage - those missiles will take around 12 seconds to cover the 100km between you, so you get some time between seeing the Caracal fire at you and actually taking damage, which you can use to warp out unscathed.

If there are no Moas or Caracals, the only thing you need to worry about is other ships getting closer - interceptors in particular will be a massive pain, and if one manages to get within range and put a point on you, you're probably done for as you have no real defence against him. Warp out immediately if an interceptor is burning towards you and gets within 50km.

Interceptors aside, most cruiser-sized ships can fire out to around 70-80km without a range bonus, so if one starts heading towards you, especially if it has a sensor-booster running, start to get suspicious and treat it like you would the Moa. Drone boats (Arbitrator in particular, but perhaps also the Vexor) may be fitting Drone Link

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.06 14:24:00 - [87]
 

Augmentors and running anti-support; thus having the ability to send drones at you from around 100km. Treat these as you would a Caracal, since you will be able to see the drones heading towards you and warp out as they get close.

Otherwise - just sit at range and keep lobbing your cruise missiles at the targets; listen to what the FW is calling as a primary when in gang, or if you have the ability to make your own target calls then look for targets of opportunity. Destroyers should take a pounding from your missiles and go down quick. Untanked cruisers are also good. Classically sturdy cruisers like the Maller and Rupture are not great targets, though if shooting at them with your fleet your damage will definitely help overcome the tank.

Quote:
I knew that if I'd fire my missles and warp out or cloack up, they wouldn't hit by the time they arrived and with the falcon on my back I thought I could stay and fight since I hoped the enemy wouldn't be able to get a lock. I guess bombers really aren't built for sustained fighting. Getting the practice I need in these ships in a FW environment will be very costly.

Bombers are definitely not built for sustained fighting - and don't believe everything you read on the forums, Falcons do not give jams that can be relied on. They are very powerful at crippling an enemy, causing him to lose lock often and have to reacquire it, but they will not keep you safe from multiple cruisers, any of which can kill you in under 20 seconds (the time for the Falcon to get another roll of the die).

As I noted above, Bombers can be killed in 2-5 volleys by most cruisers, and consequently want to use their extreme range to keep themselves safe. Tackling in a bomber is not a very good idea at all as I hope is becoming clear.

Quote:
Today an alt of mine flew in a fleet, that went over to Tama, didn't find anything there, flew back to villore, and at the villore gate in OMS we encountered a fleet which destroyed me before I could do anything usefull. I was flying a griffin with 3 ECMs and a warp disrupter on it. Figured it'd be usefull in fleet battles. Guess not...

ECM is useful in fleet battles, but the same provisos as above apply to the Griffin - it's an extremely fragile ship whose only real defence is not being shot at. Thus you need to do what you can to ensure you can keep it out of harms way while still being able to influence the fight.

First of all, forget the warp disruptor. As with the stealth bomber, you don't want to be anywhere near the fight, and your primary weaponry (ECM) has a much longer range that most frigates - use that to your advantage. Racial jammers on a Griffin have a range of between 45km and 81km (with a moderately generous falloff beyond that) depending on your skills and the quality of the jammer. Stick at least 50km away from whatever you're trying to jam. A MWD may help you maintain range; look out for destroyers (Cormorants in particular) that can still hit you at that range, and look out for anything MWDing towards you; if they can get within their weapons range, there's a good chance you'll be dead before you manage to free up a jammer and have a chance at jamming them.

You need to know that because ECM is very powerful in fleet fights, you will be a primary target for the enemy fleet. Expect to be shot at almost constantly. Thus you need to consider self-preservation in a Griffin - as well as expecting it to go down. It doesn't have any real amount of hitpoints (not can it fit any tank as all mids & lows should be ECM-oriented); it doesn't have the range bonus of the Blackbird/Falcon meaning that it has to stay dangerously close to the fight (even 80km is only 12 seconds or so for an interceptor to get within point range and start tearing you up). The main objective is just to cause as much trouble for the enemy as you can while alive. If your gang can web the fast ships that helps you a lot.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.06 14:25:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Aynen
Explain to me though how I can learn anything from a 5 second fight?

Easy. If the fight was over in 5 seconds, often there's a lot more to learn than from a long, close fight where you just got "unlucky". If you die in 5 seconds, then it should be blindingly clear that you should not have put yourself in that situation because it was never going to succeed.

In both cases you've mentioned above, you died in 5 seconds because you put an extremely flimsy ship, which was additionally a high priority target, within close range of multiple hostiles. Regardless of how good your piloting skills are, or how good your skillpoints are, you are just going to die very quickly in that situation, pure and simple. Any veteran would have done the same if you could somehow pause EVE, and hand control over to him once you'd engaged.

Thus the key was not to go in those situations in the first place. I've already explained how the stealth bomber needs to sit 100km or more away from the targets and just bombard them from there, so from what I gather you were sitting close to the warp-in point hoping to warp disrupt cruisers as they came through. That was your fatal flaw in that situation.

With the Griffin, if your fleet was warping to the gate then you should have warped in at your optimal rage (i.e. 50km or 70km). Good FCs will realise that ranged ships need their range to survive and will not warp them to the gate at zero. From that point, use similar techniques to your stealth bomber; jam priority targets, keep your eye on what can kill you and whether it's getting ready to, stay aligned at all times and don't be afraid to warp out when you're in trouble - if you stay, you'll die and still not be able to provide any jams/damage, so discretion is the better part of valour.

If on the other hand you were jumping through a gate with the Griffin's fleet to engage the enemy - this is always going to be a very tough situation for ranged ships, as they will appear right on top of the enemy. Ideally, there'll be a nearby planet that you can warp out to and warp back in at 50/70km, useful if there are larger ships and it looks like the battle might go on for a minute or more. In an unplated frigate, you can almost certainly warp before other ships can get a lock on you anyway, so it's incredibly unlikely you'd get caught on the warp-out.

If it looks like the fight will be over quickly, then all you can really do is bite the bullet and hope you don't get shot at. Wait a few seconds after your heavy hitters decloak before moving yourself; hopefully you will get lost in the noise and not noticed by the enemies, though don't count on it. If you have a MWD, use it now to burn away from the gate (towards a celestial) and open up some range - at the very least, get out of warp disruption range so you can warp if you start taking damage! If you don't have a MWD - then all you can really do is sit there and jam and hope you don't get shot at (unlikely). Stay aligned anyway, both to increase transversal to turret ships and to give you a chance to warp out in case someone starts shooting you without warp disrupting you (it does happen - e.g. a big ship just sends his drones after you while keeping a point on the primary).

Quote:
Getting the practice I need in these ships in a FW environment will be very costly.

Not necessarily. I would suggest that you start with very cheap ships - T1 frigates with T1 fittings. Without meaning to be harsh or condescending, it sounds like you're at the point right now where expensive ships or modules aren't going to be the make or break of your fights. What you really need - and we've all been there - is experience, pure and simple. Every time you lose a ship you'll gain a little more knowledge:

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.03.06 14:26:00 - [89]
 


"Oh, a Coercer can hit out to 50km and do pretty nasty damage at that range."
"Oh, a Harbinger can reliably hit my 3.5km/s Vigil in a 17km with Focused Medium Pulse lasers and Scorch ammo."
"Apocs with sensor boosters running can instapop any stationary frigate within 249km."
"Not checking local channel before engaging means I'm vulnerable to having lots of friendly backup warp in to help kill me."
"Having a range advantage lets me disengage, but not if I let myself get webbed and scrambled."

And so on. Basically, every death ultimately comes down to something that the losing pilot did wrong - your job as that pilot is not to get upset, but to accept the learning experience and make sure you get the most out of it by identifying what you could have done differently to survive. Often this might be as simple as "I shouldn't have engaged because I realise now that there was no way I could have won that fight", or "I shouldn't jump through gates in larger ships without having intelligence of whether there's a gatecamp on the other side".

Get yourself a bunch (a dozen or so) cheap ships, fly them positively and confidently, and lose them. With platinum insurance, the whole thing should cost under 5 million tops - an eighth of your stealth bomber loss. Afterwards, you should have a much better understanding of PvP mechanics, to the extent that you'll just "know" the sort of thing I posted initially (about what cruisers can hit to long range, which are likely to be short-range high damage, which are likely to have strong and weak tanks, how to stay aligned and be ready to warp out ASAP, what orbit ranges to set in such-and-such a ship to get the best transversal while not letting yourself get webbed/thrown out of orbit, etc.). Those numbers don't just come from theorycrafting, you need to get out there and feel them before they come naturally in PvP.

And don't worry about the loss count, I've lost literally hundreds of ships in PvP. It's the knowledge and experience that counts, so long as you have the ISK to keep going. Fly what you can afford to lose; stick in T1 frigates for the moment, perhaps taking out a Stealth Bomber when you feel your gang would benefit from it and you are confident you can keep it at range and keep it safe.

Also, don't be shy about asking for help in analysing losses - if you can't work out what your lesson was, post on the forums explaning the situation and asking what you could have done better. Often these kind of threads get a very good response and you'll likely get a range of useful information.

And good luck!

Serapo Petrotestes
Caldari
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2009.03.06 16:42:00 - [90]
 

Wow, kudos for such an epic, detailed and patient reply.

Personally, I would have podded the whiney dude after his third "I get popped so fast" post, even if he was in my own corp or gang.

Only suggestion for beginners: first learn how to survive in low sec and militia warfare (by this I mean learn to live more than 1 minute in a small gang engagement), then think about how you will kill someone.

And yes, fly in gangs. You learn much more and it is more fun.


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only