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Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.07.20 22:13:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Mohenna

...So, the rockets are in their current state (since ages ago) because, although they're a known defect, they are a defect "by design" and therefore require a big change...

...There is indeed a fault in the design/product, however the implementation is 'as designed' and thus the design must change (correctly, the precise balancing of attributes which game design does) to fix it. That has not been the cause of the delays however. It was more down to higher priority design tasks sitting above it in queue as I stated in an earlier reply.

Thank you v.m. for the answer! Great to have a timeframe and the promise of a blog starts to put this thread to rest, something that I wish occurred long ago :)

This though raises more in depth questions:
  • what was the design sense of the better than light drone explo radius and worse than BS explo speed?
    [*]Can such an information (the decision motivation) be tracked down at all in design notes?
    [*]Is tracking down the sense of this kind of choices feasible in the current environment?
Please don't take the above questions as criticism. Thanks again for the answer: \o/ <3 I got a dev answer Razz

PS you're discussing CCP Explorer's action, IB4 ban YARRRR!!

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.20 22:14:00 - [902]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Explorer is being too pedantic ...
Evil or Very Mad

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.20 22:28:00 - [903]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 20/07/2010 22:29:39
Originally by: yani dumyat

Because if short range missiles hit every time against smaller ships their DPS would have to be appalling for them to be even remotely balanced. This gives you the choice of rockets being good against interceptors (but lacking damage against bigger ships like AF's) or rockets having enough damage against the bigger ship classes like AF (but lacking the Ev/Er/DRF to hit interceptors well).

Given the choice I'd rather be able to do turret level damage and have to tackle my target than do carp damage against all targets.

I'm really not sure how else to explain this, I feel like a stuck record saying it over and over. Perhaps someone else can find better words? Or correct me if I'm wrong about this?



Well imho this is a non-problem, especially since most of the involved ships are caldari anyway (with a couple of amarr, for which the same problem stands). This makes the problem not existant for this reason: short range weapons are just that, short range. lower classes of ships can usually outrun you quite easily (minmatar ships are the exception, but we're talking mostly about caldari/amarr ships), so either you have a mean to tackle them (scramble/web), which already has the drawback of an even more reduced range, or they just can gtfo (or rather, engage somebody else in the gang, outside your engagement range).

In this way you are forcing ships to use webbers/short range scramble even if they, in theory, wouldn't need it for pure damage purposes (like, a HAM cerberus which could fire at 50 kms the hams but either it has to rely on outside tackle or get into scramble range and lose all the advantages, even though it wouldn't need to web the target if it wasn't for the added damage).

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Explorer is being too pedantic ...
Evil or Very Mad


Don't worry, the Engineer mindset just makes us difficult to understand for the common mortals :P (In fact I understood exactly what was meant by that post, as it's the standard terminology in use :P)

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.07.20 23:59:00 - [904]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/07/2010 23:59:36
yay page 31

Re-posting for emphasis.

3 launchers+: (Primary weapon)
Hawk
Vengeance
Malediction
Crow
Kestrel
Breacher*
Inquisitor
Flycatcher
Heretic
Worm**
Caldari Navy Hookbill***
Condor""

Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns)
Merlin
Tristan
Eris

Extra launcher high slot (meh)
Rifter
Republic fleet Firetail
Harpy
Cormorant
Thrasher
Claw
Stiletto
Raptor
Enyo
Jaguar
Wolf
VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON


*Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout.
** Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no.
*** Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there!
"" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there.


RACE TALLY (thought I'd add this up as I'm bored)
Caldari - 7 (Counting worm) in top section, 1 in middle section, 3 in bottom (total: 11)
Gallente - 1 (Counting worm) in top section, 2 in middle section, 1 in bottom (total: 4)
Amarr - 4 in top section, 0 in middle section, 0 in bottom section (total: 4)
Minmatar - 1 in top section, 0 in middle section, 7 in bottom section (total: 8)

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.21 00:14:00 - [905]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

lower classes of ships can usually outrun you quite easily ...so either you have a mean to tackle them...or they just can gtfo.



This I agree with and understand, what I don't get is why you want to be able to hit a ship for full damage if you can't hold it in place and it's just going to gtfo anyway?

Braitai made a good post about how a malediction can be used to defeat ships by using their falloff and tracking against them. A hookhill can be similarly effective because of its speed, range and copious midslots. For this reason rockets that could hit interceptors well would need to be very low damage (for comparison an autocannon ship will lose about 50% of its DPS when fighting at the edge of scram range, AB interceptors can almost completely evade lasers by orbiting at 500m)

Then you go on to talk about 50km cerbs and I find it hard to follow. There are only 4 rocket ships that can hit outside of scram range - flycatcher, crow, hookbill and hawk. Of those four the hookbill and crow are not slow ships and only the hookbill can fit enough range rigs to make a disruptor/kite setup worthwhile (even then it's debatable and you'd be better with a light missile setup).

If I'm being dumb then I apologize but I find your reasoning hard to follow, maybe if you posted numbers it would be a bit less vague.

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

In this way you are forcing ships to use webbers/short range scramble even if they, in theory, wouldn't need it for pure damage purposes


On the contrary I suggested a setup that would hit an AF for 100% damage unless he fitted an afterburner. If he's going to fit a tanking mod then surely it's only fair that you should have to fit a web? An untackled interceptor would get between 15% and 50% damage reduction depending on fit and orbit range.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 00:25:00 - [906]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat

If I'm being dumb then I apologize but I find your reasoning hard to follow, maybe if you posted numbers it would be a bit less vague.



Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general. So while having to tackle/web for a frigate is basically mandatory anyway with short range weapons, cruisers and BSs don't need that.

Vagabond, for example, normally fits just long point and no webs, and still uses the short range weapons. On the cerberus you can't do that even though your hams could hit up to 50 and some kms.
And that's because even against same size targets the webber is almost mandatory (though the painter can help, but with a much lower efficiency), never mind using hams against smaller targets.

So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 00:57:00 - [907]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general. So while having to tackle/web for a frigate is basically mandatory anyway with short range weapons, cruisers and BSs don't need that.



Mostly because cruiser/BS short ranged weapons have tad better stats than frig ones AND their designed targets (cruisers for HAM, BS for torp) usually dont run on AB and are naturally quite slow (MWD tanking missiles in kinda weird as you dont get such huge damage reductions as with AB).

Quote:

Vagabond, for example, normally fits just long point and no webs, and still uses the short range weapons. On the cerberus you can't do that even though your hams could hit up to 50 and some kms.



Ofc you can but cerb is generally bad solo boat. It is quite slow and has fitting issues with HAMs (+MWD, +LSEs). But if you really want you can always slap on longer point like RF or TS and solo. But generally there are better ships for this role. That said HAMs hit non-webbed cruisers quite well (except for vaga and prolly cynabal but thats quite obvious). I do have most of my cerb kills in HML setup tho, but when it comes to sacrilege i always used long point and never had issues killing stuff.

Quote:

And that's because even against same size targets the webber is almost mandatory (though the painter can help, but with a much lower efficiency), never mind using hams against smaller targets.



As above. Against same size targets you dont rly need web when using HAMs. They have goon enough stats to kill non-webbed cruisers. Ofc in 90% cases you will want to put web on them just to stop them from running away. Against smaller targets its obvious web is almost always needed - thats how missiles work...

Quote:

So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage.


Again: only for rockets. Was using disruptor only on torp raven - never had issues (changed to scrambler only because couldnt cope with tards burning away with MWD... raven is kinda slow even on overheat). HAMs - same story as above. Tho 2/3 of ingame HAM boats (drake, sacri, 3rd one is cerb) can fit web+disruptor/scrammer no problem. Cerb unfortunately has fitting issues. Aaaand when it comes to rockets? World is turned upside down. You need web to damage anything (even non-ABing non-MWDing frig), you need scram+web to actually damage MWDing frig and 2x web+ point to kill ABing frig. So totally different story.

FAKE EDIT:
actually i flown HAM cerb. I forgot i had HAM skills before i got HML. But that was mostly gang dps/support and with 90% webs.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.07.21 07:20:00 - [908]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make, perhaps you could clarify in terms of how you would like to see rockets changed?
I guess my point is if CCP did go in the direction of eliminating the need for a web to apply 100% DPS, they'd still be useful for mitigating incoming DPS through range/transversal control. In fact an AB would serve the same purpose, exchanging higher fitting requirements for a greater degree of control.

TBH though I think the changes you've been proposing sound pretty reasonable, most of the issues I have extend towards frigates in general. In order to tackle cruisers and above, you either need to stay in disruptor ranges, or get close. At rocket ranges all of a sudden you have to counter neuts, webs, and scramblers, unless you're using a crow/hawk/CNH or javelins. There simply aren't that many frigates which can hack combat within scram ranges vs larger opponents. If a web remained a requirement for a rocket boat, that's one less midslot you have to play around with if you want to fit to counter different situations.

Have you worked out how effective rockets would be vs drones with your changes? I use AC's on my fleet 'diction because it has a long point/scram combo. Webbed drones actually die pretty quickly to rockets but that only works in a tight orbit, in a high orbit they're useless.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.07.21 07:39:00 - [909]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage.


Personally, I have no problem with the extent of this state of affairs for HAMs and torps.

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.07.21 08:36:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
This I agree with and understand, what I don't get is why you want to be able to hit a ship for full damage if you can't hold it in place and it's just going to gtfo anyway?

You and Braitai have good points - I think once I killed a rifter with a rocket kestrel using his tactic - the problem is that a frig must be webbed twice.

One web ought to be enough to do full damage to an orbiting, abing, non overloading dramiel imo. Overloading, or the dramiel going straight, would decrease the damage, but that's it...

All the numbers should be deduced by the above principle.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 10:26:00 - [911]
 

Well, I'm not that sure about torps since a torp raven doesn't appeal me at all, but hams are not all that good... I'm fine with having to use webbers and the like on smaller targets, afterall we don't get tracking issues so normally a minimum of damage is applied to the target (though it's quite easier to reduce missile damage than turret damage, generally speaking, since you just need to be small and fast, no need to maneuver in any particular way).

But I'm not really that sure about hams on same targets... Like you said, they already have fitting problems on their own, which makes it harder to fit tank, they have very limited range (except on the cerberus, ofc) and the added damage compared to HM isn't that much, when it gets reduced by some % no matter what.

Yes, you don't get a drastic reduction of damage like rockets, I know, but given the worse stats, the higher DRF (which, again, means that you lose target diversity... Anything too small or too fast (and those aren't big numbers either) will reduce the damage done FASTER than what you lose with hmls) couple with the above (fitting problems and limited range, which would be fine on its own though, of course...) make the HAM setups not really worth flying: the heavy missiles are (much) more reliable, flexible and with comparable dps (since often the powergrid issues mean you have to sacrifice a BCU to a fitting module).

I used to fly a ham drake and while I did some satisfying kills with it, I realized how poor it performs in real combat situations and why the run of the mill HML drake is superior. Torp raven imho suffers from the same problems (though I guess they both can fit the needs of a gatecamper), but then again the raven is imho an overall subpar ship for pvp

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 10:50:00 - [912]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

But I'm not really that sure about hams on same targets... Like you said, they already have fitting problems on their own, which makes it harder to fit tank,



Only on cerb (and mostly on NH). Tengu, Drake, Sacri, Legion (lol) fits them ok.

Quote:

they have very limited range (except on the cerberus, ofc) and the added damage compared to HM isn't that much, when it gets reduced by some % no matter what.



Its plain 25% damage boost. 29% damage reduction vs 1544m/s, 870sig ishtar (only MWD, no LSE, going in straight line). Dual LSE ishtar going in straight line gets 7% damage reduction. So you are already better than heavy missiles. Vs same ishtar without speed mod you get 100% damage. Yeah HAM stats suck, they deal full damage MWDing or non-prop cruisers. Almost like rockets. Only non-mwd vaga gets 40% damage reduction while moving in straight line. try orbitting or turn on MWD and it hurts. Fact is: HAMS work PERFECTLY against their intended targets. Even better than torps because they can deal full damage in almost all cases (where torps deal reduced damage vs tier1 battleships).

Quote:

Yes, you don't get a drastic reduction of damage like rockets, I know, but given the worse stats, the higher DRF (which, again, means that you lose target diversity... Anything too small or too fast (and those aren't big numbers either) will reduce the damage done FASTER than what you lose with hmls)



No they dont because their intended targets cant run 5km/s. Most hacs (cruisers) end up around 2km/s speed which is still within hard-hitting range of hams without huge damage reduction.

Quote:

I used to fly a ham drake and while I did some satisfying kills with it, I realized how poor it performs in real combat situations



What is a "real combat situation"? Or are you talking from high horse here (aka "i fly in blobs! hams dont work in blobs")? Because whenever i fought in "real combat situations" (ergo: not on sisi) i NEVER had issues with HAMs. Selecting proper ship/weapon for a job is 1st thing you should consider before even undocking.

Quote:

and why the run of the mill HML drake is superior.



Yeh. Tell it to 3-5 man gangs i flown for quite a while. Im sure HML's 450-500 dps would be appreciated more than 600+ from HAM drake.

TBH id prefer some facts/numbers rather than "real combat situation" lulz generalization. Also id kinda prefer to get back on topic - rockets.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.21 11:25:00 - [913]
 

Originally by: Braitai

Have you worked out how effective rockets would be vs drones with your changes? I use AC's on my fleet 'diction because it has a long point/scram combo. Webbed drones actually die pretty quickly to rockets but that only works in a tight orbit, in a high orbit they're useless.



If someone can tell me the in game speed, sig and orbit distance of drones then I'd be happy to do the maths (warrior II's would probably be best as they seem to be the most common).

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general....Vagabond, for example


A normal vaga fit (2 gyros) with phased plasma gets 516 DPS in EFT, in game with barrage from 20km it's more like 300 dps, at forty km you'd be lucky to scratch their paint. Needing to get close up with a web to apply full damage is not a purely missile thing. HAMs are fine.

Anyway, I'm sure this thread had something to do with rockets Wink

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 13:07:00 - [914]
 

I don't want this to turn into some kind of pointless debate over a minor issue. I believe that the HAMs are almost good. Perhaps it's more a problems of ships than missiles, but the fact is that while there is no lack of short range turret fits (well, pulse and autocannons at least), HAM fits are very hard to come by besides, perhaps, pirate gatecamps. The sacrilege, which is a HAM specialized ship hasn't seen much use at all lately (and since my target pool isn't all that limited I guess it makes up for a decent statistical base of the overall population, with the exception of the above mentioned pirates).

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Only on cerb (and mostly on NH). Tengu, Drake, Sacri, Legion (lol) fits them ok.


This is a little misleading imho... Fitting problems doesn't mean an outright "they don't fit". It means that you have to sacrifice much of the advantages of a long range fit BESIDE the long range. Not sure about tengu ham (and the HML tengu is awesome as it is), legion is loltastic. Sacrilege is a specialized ham ship, ofc there are not problems there (well, I hope so at least). Drake on the other hand has to sacrifice quite some tank and normally even some damage modding to fit a balanced HAM setup. If you want to make it agile enough to run after some ships then you may have to waste even more tank/dmg mods.

But then, I'm all for sacrificing tank for gank if the end result is satisfying.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Its plain 25% damage boost. 29% damage reduction vs 1544m/s, 870sig ishtar (only MWD, no LSE, going in straight line). Dual LSE ishtar going in straight line gets 7% damage reduction. So you are already better than heavy missiles. Vs same ishtar without speed mod you get 100% damage. Yeah HAM stats suck, they deal full damage MWDing or non-prop cruisers. Almost like rockets. Only non-mwd vaga gets 40% damage reduction while moving in straight line. try orbitting or turn on MWD and it hurts. Fact is: HAMS work PERFECTLY against their intended targets. Even better than torps because they can deal full damage in almost all cases (where torps deal reduced damage vs tier1 battleships).


Now, I'm using eft to calculate this because I don't want to dig up the dmg formula to make the exact calcs. So it may be wrong but... You say non mwd vaga gets 40% dmg reduction... EFT shows that a MWDed, double lse'd vaga flying in straight line gets about 50% damage reduction. Bear in mind also that the vaga is one of the ships which you are most likely to encounter anyway. A long range fit made for tank more than damage (with TP I have to add) outdamages the ham fit from the get-go if the scrambler/webbers are off. With the painter off, the damage is perhaps 20 dps lower than the ham fit while outside web range.

On a mwding sniper zealot the results are exactly the same, with the difference that the long range fit with painter on does top damage, while the ham fit isn't anywhere close to doing that. That's because of the DRF difference, which makes the heavy missiles cap in damage quite faster.

On a close range AB zealot, the things go even worse. The dmg differential between HML and HAM is wider (though they both suffer from a huge damage loss, if outside web range, the zealot reduces HAM damage by almost 75%, while HML fit, even with painter off is just a little under 50% reduction AND over the now reduced ham dps).

I gave you three VERY common pvp fits, found both in small and large roaming gangs as well as fully fledged fleet ops. So... Either the EFT formula is completely off (which, I grant you, may be possible) or perhaps I'm not exactly pulling things out from thin air.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

No they dont because their intended targets cant run 5km/s. Most hacs (cruisers) end up around 2km/s speed which is still within hard-hitting range of hams without huge damage reduction.


I think I answered this above.

(Continues)

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 13:08:00 - [915]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 21/07/2010 13:24:12
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
What is a "real combat situation"? Or are you talking from high horse here (aka "i fly in blobs! hams dont work in blobs")? Because whenever i fought in "real combat situations" (ergo: not on sisi) i NEVER had issues with HAMs. Selecting proper ship/weapon for a job is 1st thing you should consider before even undocking.


Ok, I don't consider "real combat situations" most of the following situations: gatecamping in lowsec, suicide ganking in hisec, can-flipping, aggro "exploiting" in hisec. In some cases gang fights in lowsec may not count as "real combat situation" if bombs, bubbles and other prohibited modules/ships are involved in the discussion. This is not the case though, but gatecamping still counts since turrets are a mechanic that isn't present anywhere else and the use of bubbles is most often intrinsic to a real gatecamp.
Oh I'm also speaking strictly about pvp, though I think that was clear.

Yes my perception may be 0.0 skewed, but that's where most of the pvp gets done.

Also, I've flown in small gangs, large gangs, fleet ops, sometimes I even gatecamped in lowsec. As I'm flying caldari only ships, my solo experience isn't that great though.

What I'm saying applies to all of the above and the bigger the fleet gets, the greater the impact of what I say increases (and that's even while acknowledging that in bigger fleets it's much more likely to have external tackle).

Also: selecting a proper ship. Fact is, unless you are facing a known fleet composition (which puts us in combined fleet action territory usually), you don't know what you are going to face and thus, usually, flexibility >>> raw damage. And that's fine for me, the turret users have it worse: a long range turret can't deal well with short range targets and vice versa. Long range missiles don't have that problem... Short range missiles on the other hand have short range and the increase in damage is (since we're doing exactly this...) debatable.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Yeh. Tell it to 3-5 man gangs i flown for quite a while. Im sure HML's 450-500 dps would be appreciated more than 600+ from HAM drake.


If the dps could be flexibly applied I'd agree with you. As it is you often waste not only a % of your damage but all of it. But that's intrinsic to the features of a short range weapon. Probably the ships you can fly HAMs on are not great ships to go close range with... But that's a problem by itself, it means that while the HAM weapon may (and I'm not saying it is) be completely good, there is not a platform which can use it well. Which, I admit, is a different problem, but one which may be possible to solve from the missile side instead of having to touch every involved ship.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
TBH id prefer some facts/numbers rather than "real combat situation" lulz generalization. Also id kinda prefer to get back on topic - rockets.


Rockets have been debated for a long time and since devs stated that they are taking a broader look at missiles (though it may just be that, a look), I don't think we're wasting time with this. And also while the terminology may be imperfect, I'm not trying to troll nor I'm spouting nonsense. My claims have some substance behind them. I don't believe they are universally accepted, not the perfect look on the situation, but you shouldn't think I'm completely clueless either.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 13:54:00 - [916]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Drake on the other hand has to sacrifice quite some tank and normally even some damage modding to fit a balanced HAM setup. If you want to make it agile enough to run after some ships then you may have to waste even more tank/dmg mods.



WHAT? Learn how to fit proper HAM drake... it easily fits 7x HAM + 3x BCU (needs 3% PG implant iirc). If you dont want that implant just swap 1x HAM for HML. Done. Tank is as sturdy as it can get: LSE + 2x invul + dc + 3x extender rig. Thats 80k to 91k (overheated) EHP while sporting almost 680dps non-overheated. There IS a reason drake is considered best BC out there... at least for those who know how to fit and fly it.

Quote:

Now, I'm using eft to calculate this because I don't want to dig up the dmg formula to make the exact calcs. So it may be wrong but... You say non mwd vaga gets 40% dmg reduction... EFT shows that a MWDed, double lse'd vaga flying in straight line gets about 50% damage reduction. Bear in mind also that the vaga is one of the ships which you are most likely to encounter anyway. A long range fit made for tank more than damage (with TP I have to add) outdamages the ham fit from the get-go if the scrambler/webbers are off. With the painter off, the damage is perhaps 20 dps lower than the ham fit while outside web range.



Yes yes you have TP and stuff. And you wont kill said Vaga anyways without proper tackle as he will warp away anyways. So it dfoesnt mean if you use HAM or HML as damage reduction will be 100% as soon as he warps. Thats the difference between "eft combat" and "tq combat". Also Vaga is the only exception i shown for comparison. Why did you ignore the rest of slower cruisers the game has to offer?

Quote:
On a mwding sniper zealot the results are exactly the same, with the difference that the long range fit with painter on does top damage, while the ham fit isn't anywhere close to doing that. That's because of the DRF difference, which makes the heavy missiles cap in damage quite faster.


Its not "exactly the same" Its not even close to being "the same". MWD+LSE (typical long range zealot fit) gets only 30% damage reduction while flying in straight line. Thats without counting in any rigs. And again - your HML drake has no ability to hold it from running away = you need another ship with web. If oyu use web you might aswell use it on said drake and then just use HAMs.

Quote:
On a close range AB zealot, the things go even worse. The dmg differential between HML and HAM is wider (though they both suffer from a huge damage loss, if outside web range, the zealot reduces HAM damage by almost 75%, while HML fit, even with painter off is just a little under 50% reduction AND over the now reduced ham dps).


Close range zealot fit will get webbed. That means single web will put damage reduction down to 37% if he is going in straight line. If hes doing curved runs his reduction drops even further. For HML+TP (no web) damage reduction is 49% in straight line. 37% reduction is less than 49% (plus HAMs have 25% base DPS more). Its worth remembering that single web is almost as effective as 2x TP.

Quote:

I gave you three VERY common pvp fits, found both in small and large roaming gangs as well as fully fledged fleet ops. So... Either the EFT formula is completely off (which, I grant you, may be possible) or perhaps I'm not exactly pulling things out from thin air.



Nope. You are just using wrong ships for the wrong job. You try to engage sniper zealots with HAM drake (lol) or vaga with HML drake without having additional tackle. If i were to take HAM drake to sniper fest i too would whine its not good. But for their own job HAMs (that is: fighting within web range or around 15-20km tops) they are superior to HML in any way. And dont forget surprise buttsex gangmod drake with 17km web and 14km scram.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:01:00 - [917]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 14:10:52
Quote:

Rockets have been debated for a long time and since devs stated that they are taking a broader look at missiles (though it may just be that, a look), I don't think we're wasting time with this. And also while the terminology may be imperfect, I'm not trying to troll nor I'm spouting nonsense. My claims have some substance behind them. I don't believe they are universally accepted, not the perfect look on the situation, but you shouldn't think I'm completely clueless either.


This sentence fortunately saved you from lots of smack from my side (i deleted it just now).

And im speaking broadly from pretty much all point of views: both large and small (solo) combat both in empire (wardecs)/lowsec and nullsec. Only issues i've ever had with HAMs is taking wrong ship with wrong gang. Bringing HAM boat to 50 man gang (happened, i dont deny it) was stupid and pointless. For smaller combat HAMs actually show how short range missiles should have been balanced. IMO even torps could learn a thing or 2 from them (their stupidly large explo radius which doesnt catch tier1 BS easily). When it comes to short range missiles (rockets aside) is prefer to see torps changed a little not HAMs. And that is lowering explo velocity and explo radius just a little (say to 400-420 range). But its no biggy. Torps actually work, HAMs work, rockets dont.

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:46:00 - [918]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Explorer is being too pedantic ...
Evil or Very Mad


Don't be too worked up about that, your explanation in that specific question made a lot of heads turn since most customers don't speak "engineer".

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.07.21 17:43:00 - [919]
 

Edited by: Faffywaffy on 21/07/2010 17:46:49
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address.



CCP Chronotis, I beg you not to "fix" rockets, as they need no fixing and any boost will make them overpowered. Please examine my long history of using rocket Crows and Maledictions to defeat all other interceptors.

With the exception of a rail Taranis, there is pretty much no standard ceptor fit that can reliably defeat a properly fit and flown rocket Malediction (a dual-prop blaster Taranis also stands a good chance). The main reason to prefer a (rocket) Crow over a Malediction is that it can apply more dps, thus requiring less distance from "the blob" when engaging an enemy interceptor.

I will argue similarly that a properly fit and flown rocket Vengeance will hold its ground against many of the more popular assault frigates. The rocket-bonused interdictors are terrible for reasons unrelated to rockets.

The "rockets suck" mantra has been repeated over and over on the forums to such an extent that you can now see posts from people saying "I was going to fly a rocket X, but then I heard they are terrible, so I guess I shouldn't. CCP, please fix rockets!".

Of course with the Angel buff, the Dramiel is king and flying anything other than an anti-Dramiel Dramiel is sub-optimal.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 18:27:00 - [920]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 18:41:54
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 18:34:52
Yeh heretic is also fine ship, because i have almost 500 kills with it. Not.

Most (out of 4 pages i checked at least 90-95%) of ceptors you soloed were ****fits. Sure the piloting counts but when you engage lol 2x coproc or medium pulse crusaders it rly doesnt matter if you orbit them at 500 or not at all - they are so bad they will die even in straight out fight. Thats point number 1. Point number 2: even more of those kills are gang kills. So what you are saying is "rockets are fine as long as my enemy is **** fit and has no clue". Pretty much.

Taranis (one of most used ceptors out there), gatling sader (not some funny DLP or DLB setup) - two of the best ceptors out there that have no problem at all with rocket ceptors. AB frigs (cant find any of those soloed by you) - also kinda immune to whatever you dish out (unless you tackle em and wait for gang - but thats not killing them but tackling). Veng/hawk fine? I dont see many kills using them either (nor many losses).

To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. What is easily doable in any small/med ship if s1 can be bothered to do it. And all the proofs in heavens and earth point that rockets are terribad indeed.

EDIT:
plus as i remember we had this discussion once already. And points stated then arent different today.

EDIT2:
also rockets are fine because i have rocket launcher on my dramiel and i do get kills! YAY !

EDIT3:
@ down. Pretty much this. I just didnt want to be so blunt Embarassed

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.07.21 18:41:00 - [921]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/07/2010 18:50:42

What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction.

Of these, one was an untanked SML Crow, another was an untanked SML Malediction, the third was an untanked Stiletto and the fourth was another rocket Crow. Three of these victims also used missiles, one was another rocket-user, none had an afterburner and two of them were tackle-ceptors, designed for tackling rather than DPS. These are not accomplishments of note and tell us nothing about rocket balance.

As for losses, Faffy has lost a rocket Crow to a Crusader, a rocket Malediction to a Taranis and a faction/deadspace-fit Malediction to an Incursus. Laughing

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:19:00 - [922]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction.



What is your point? Yes, I haven't flown interceptors very much recently. Have there been significant changes since 2009 (when I did fly them almost exclusively) that made rockets much worse?

Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a *very* close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:20:00 - [923]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 21/07/2010 19:25:47
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
WHAT? Learn how to fit proper HAM drake... it easily fits 7x HAM + 3x BCU (needs 3% PG implant iirc). If you dont want that implant just swap 1x HAM for HML. Done. Tank is as sturdy as it can get: LSE + 2x invul + dc + 3x extender rig. Thats 80k to 91k (overheated) EHP while sporting almost 680dps non-overheated. There IS a reason drake is considered best BC out there... at least for those who know how to fit and fly it.


You should leave drones out of the calculations if just for the fact that they are meaningless for comparing two fits of the same ship. Also, this fit DOES have less tank than the common HML one. You have to sacrifice one LSE for the webber. That brings you down to 83k ehp, while the hml hits 104k, overloadable to 119k. The third bcu is opinable because you need a grid implant if you want to fit it. That's not always doable, so I compared two similar 2 BCU fits (long and short). That's the whole difference between your "I know how to fit drakes" and my "you don't" drake.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Yes yes you have TP and stuff. And you wont kill said Vaga anyways without proper tackle as he will warp away anyways. So it dfoesnt mean if you use HAM or HML as damage reduction will be 100% as soon as he warps. Thats the difference between "eft combat" and "tq combat". Also Vaga is the only exception i shown for comparison. Why did you ignore the rest of slower cruisers the game has to offer?

You are also talking exclusively about solo fighting it seems because in my original post (which should be... 3 posts ago? something like that), I stated that my problem is with the need for the tackle to do damage, not for the tackle to keep the guy there. So the point about the vagabond escaping is moot. Because if we want to be pedantic, with an HML fit at least you will hit the vagabond once or twice before he GTFO, while you won't even get in range to fire HAMs at all. Also...

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Its not "exactly the same" Its not even close to being "the same". MWD+LSE (typical long range zealot fit) gets only 30% damage reduction while flying in straight line. Thats without counting in any rigs. And again - your HML drake has no ability to hold it from running away = you need another ship with web. If oyu use web you might aswell use it on said drake and then just use HAMs.
What I said above. I wasn't clear... The dmg reduction is different, but the result is still that the HML fit with TPs is doing more damage than the ham fit. And without TP the difference in damage is laughable, but I'm much more likely to hit said zealot in a combat situation.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Close range zealot fit will get webbed. That means single web will put damage reduction down to 37% if he is going in straight line. If hes doing curved runs his reduction drops even further. For HML+TP (no web) damage reduction is 49% in straight line. 37% reduction is less than 49% (plus HAMs have 25% base DPS more). Its worth remembering that single web is almost as effective as 2x TP.

Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation that's quite likely. It's also very unlikely for such a situation to ever happen. On the other hand, target painting is quite easier, and also, much more easily stackable. The problem is that you have to apply web in the first place, and that limits your already limited range again. HML has no such problems dmg wise (yes it gets reduced but it still does MORE damage than the ham drake without webs).

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Nope. You are just using wrong ships for the wrong job.


I guess you never happened to run around in a roaming gang fighting whatever comes your way. Or you were never engaged by somebody while you weren't looking forward that particular fight. I guess you have perfect intel and you know at any time what people are flying in that moment in every place. Perhaps I wouldn't bring a drake gang to a sniper fest if I knew that beforehand. But there lies the problem.

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:25:00 - [924]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails.



It does mean it when you can reliably defeat the overwhelming majority of other commonly fit interceptors. Are you suggesting that rockets should be buffed to the point where rocket crows/maledictios can beat *all* other interceptor fits?


Originally by: Deva Blackfire

plus as i remember we had this discussion once already. And points stated then arent different today.



Yes, but now devs are watching and actually thinking about making changes.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:38:00 - [925]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:23
Quote:
You should leave drones out of the calculations if just for the fact that they are meaningless for comparing two fits of the same ship. Also, this fit DOES have less tank than the common HML one. You have to sacrifice one LSE for the webber. That brings you down to 83k ehp, while the hml hits 104k, overloadable to 119k. The third bcu is opinable because you need a grid implant if you want to fit it. That's not always doable, so I compared two similar 2 BCU fits (long and short). That's the whole difference between your "I know how to fit drakes" and my "you don't" drake.


As i said. If you dont want BCU you swap 1x HAM to HML. You NEVER remove 3rd BCU from HAM drake. And yes drones are important. They add quite nice DPS to short range ship and are... hmm... useless at extreme ranges of HML ships?

Quote:
You are also talking exclusively about solo fighting it seems because in my original post (which should be... 3 posts ago? something like that), I stated that my problem is with the need for the tackle to do damage, not for the tackle to keep the guy there. So the point about the vagabond escaping is moot. Because if we want to be pedantic, with an HML fit at least you will hit the vagabond once or twice before he GTFO, while you won't even get in range to fire HAMs at all. Also...


Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer.

Quote:
Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation that's quite likely. It's also very unlikely for such a situation to ever happen. On the other hand, target painting is quite easier, and also, much more easily stackable.


Uh actually 3x web will be as effective as infinite number of painters against smaller ships due to stacking penalty. Against cruisers on AB 2 webs will be better than 2 painters but at some points painters should take over (due to cruiser speed dropping under explo velocity but sig radius still being below explo radius). Still its such small difference it is really neiglible. And even if you go against clear zealot (125 sig vs 150ish HAM explo radius) the increased damage from HAMs will equal HMLs.

Quote:
I guess you never happened to run around in a roaming gang fighting whatever comes your way.


I did. But iirc -a- is kinda higher in the food chain than generic_carebear_alliance and brings proper ships for roams instead of "put whatever you find, plexing drakes are OK too".

Quote:
I guess you have perfect intel and you know at any time what people are flying in that moment in every place.


Yes i do. Otherwise i dont engage unless im sure my "wrong fit" can cope with it. If you end up in equal fight - you screwed up. If you end up using inferior ships against enemy - you screwed up REALLY BAD and the fight should have never happened.

Quote:
Perhaps I wouldn't bring a drake gang to a sniper fest if I knew that beforehand.


I think you have one pair of eyes (or maybe you dont, dunno) and can see what ship types are in gang and judge from it what range will you engage at. If you see people bringing sniper zealots, muninns and cerbs and you bring HAM drake it means you are either clueless or kinda special... And yeh i have both HAM drake and HML drake (+gangmod fit) ready for both gang styles - short or long range.


Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:42:00 - [926]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:44
Originally by: Faffywaffy
Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a *very* close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that.


Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with ****fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits.

Originally by: Faffywaffy
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails.



It does mean it when you can reliably defeat the overwhelming majority of other commonly fit interceptors. Are you suggesting that rockets should be buffed to the point where rocket crows/maledictios can beat *all* other interceptor fits?



Im yet to see those kills you speak of. In previous discussion i did what Gypsio did here - linked some of your "awesome solo kills" against crapfits. And atm it only shows you can reliably ***** on mails / tackle stuff till friends arrive / kill said crapfits.

Also taranis can possibly kill most/all other fits (excluding specific counter-fits, as they are what name implies - counters). So can sader with proper piloting skills/fit. So can dramiel (if hes smart) and possibly Daredevil. Why malediction shouldnt? Because you said so?

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:15:00 - [927]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

As i said. If you dont want BCU you swap 1x HAM to HML. You NEVER remove 3rd BCU from HAM drake. And yes drones are important. They add quite nice DPS to short range ship and are... hmm... useless at extreme ranges of HML ships?

About the HML yeah you're probably right, though having lag issues using different groups of weapons is not that good for me, but that's me, ofc. About drones... Well if you're sitting at 70 km range in a hml drake you're failing because it'll be quite easy for your target to get outside your range. With good (not even max skills) drones can reach up to 57 kms, so sending them to one target is not that hard in a HML fit, and after that you can leave them to aggro by themselves if you can't manage them because of range.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer.

Well I compared even without the TP on. In the three cases I shown, even with TP off the HML damage is VERY close (less than 50 dps difference) to HAM damage without webs, either in excess or in defect (while still having a lot more range). Also TP is much easier to apply than a web given its range, don't you agree?

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Uh actually 3x web will be as effective as infinite number of painters against smaller ships due to stacking penalty. Against cruisers on AB 2 webs will be better than 2 painters but at some points painters should take over (due to cruiser speed dropping under explo velocity but sig radius still being below explo radius). Still its such small difference it is really neiglible. And even if you go against clear zealot (125 sig vs 150ish HAM explo radius) the increased damage from HAMs will equal HMLs.

Yes but getting 3 webs on a target is much harder than getting 3 TPs... Also with your last statement you basically say what I'm saying: HAM damage will equal HML damage. The problem is that HML damage can be done from up to around 3 times the range of the HAMs...

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I did. But iirc -a- is kinda higher in the food chain than generic_carebear_alliance and brings proper ships for roams instead of "put whatever you find, plexing drakes are OK too".

Yeah, but we are not talking about our alliances only, right? I mean, these changes are for everyone, not just high profile pvp alliances.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Yes i do. Otherwise i dont engage unless im sure my "wrong fit" can cope with it. If you end up in equal fight - you screwed up. If you end up using inferior ships against enemy - you screwed up REALLY BAD and the fight should have never happened.

Yes, the gang may have screwed up or may have been outmaneuvered, but if you're not attacking a specific target and just roaming around, it may happen that you have to engage something which isn't your ideal target. A flexible fit may win in that occasion anyway, while a more "rigid" one, will have a harder time. I'm fine with this, but it just makes HAMs less appealing to use.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

I think you have one pair of eyes (or maybe you dont, dunno) and can see what ship types are in gang and judge from it what range will you engage at. If you see people bringing sniper zealots, muninns and cerbs and you bring HAM drake it means you are either clueless or kinda special... And yeh i have both HAM drake and HML drake (+gangmod fit) ready for both gang styles - short or long range.


Well I wasn't talking about MY gang. Ofc I'm not going to bring a HAM drake in a sniper hac gang. I was talking about what happens if you encounter an enemy sniper gang... If they jump on you they are toast... If they warp on you and you have bubble they are toast. If you have close warpin (either by probes or hero ceptor) then the snipers are game...

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:31:00 - [928]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 23:32:29
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer.

Well I compared even without the TP on. In the three cases I shown, even with TP off the HML damage is VERY close (less than 50 dps difference) to HAM damage without webs, either in excess or in defect (while still having a lot more range). Also TP is much easier to apply than a web given its range, don't you agree?



Jess. If im in HAM drake i will not engage at 50km. Nor at 30. I engage at around 18km (max HAM range). Thats only 5km from overheated web. As a result IF i engage with HAM drake it means ill be in web range almost always. Basics of target selection: tackle -> kill. I cant rly remember the time i actually fired at a target without having it webbed/tackled properly. And that includes small gangs - firing at non-tackled target is pointless as it can disengage whenever he wishes. As a result EVERY target i engaged was webbed. I dont care if TP works at 60km as i dont engage at that distance. Understood? You start to sound like all blaster whiners "but mah blasters dont hit at 40km". No they dont and never will. Tackle stuff, get close, ****. And suddenly range is not an issue.

Quote:

Yes but getting 3 webs on a target is much harder than getting 3 TPs... Also with your last statement you basically say what I'm saying: HAM damage will equal HML damage. The problem is that HML damage can be done from up to around 3 times the range of the HAMs...



Yes. But still i have advantage of actually being up and close to target = i can web him and keep him from running. Again specifics of said weapon are: you use it when you KNOW you will be close. There is no point at all arguing if HAMs on drake do good damage outside of web as you WILL be in web range. With some rare wonky exceptions of using javelins (again: RARE, as in one in 50 kills maybe).

Quote:

Yeah, but we are not talking about our alliances only, right? I mean, these changes are for everyone, not just high profile pvp alliances.



If someone is too stupid to bring long range ship to long range gang is it my problem? Or maybe you are suggesting all weapons should be balanced towards ******s? Then i propose to make every weapon out there same, so little Timmy wont get confused by accident and will be a winner every time he undocks.

Quote:

Well I wasn't talking about MY gang. Ofc I'm not going to bring a HAM drake in a sniper hac gang. I was talking about what happens if you encounter an enemy sniper gang... If they jump on you they are toast... If they warp on you and you have bubble they are toast. If you have close warpin (either by probes or hero ceptor) then the snipers are game..



In 3rd case i dont engage. Duh i dont need to win them all if its not possible.

Again: HAMs are fine if you use them with their role on mind. Ergo: engaging around web/scram range. They do have tad higher range but treat is as a bonus if you actually have gang/faction web instead of "i have 20km range i will engage on its edge". Damage wise? They are fine. Can they hit their intended targets for full/almost full damage? Sure they do. I dont see any problems here.

EDIT:
i wouldnt mind having 10% more DPS on them. Problem is: with 10% more DPS ill get around 1000dps on my tengu (without overheat) and around 730 on drake. Overpowered? Surely.

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.07.22 05:50:00 - [929]
 

Edited by: Faffywaffy on 22/07/2010 06:37:11
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:44
Originally by: Faffywaffy
Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a *very* close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that.


Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with ****fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits.



No, it means that the tactics of fighting an AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus are different from what you'd normally attempt to do when engaging a t1 frig in 0.0.


Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Im yet to see those kills you speak of. In previous discussion i did what Gypsio did here - linked some of your "awesome solo kills" against crapfits. And atm it only shows you can reliably ***** on mails / tackle stuff till friends arrive / kill said crapfits.



Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Also taranis can possibly kill most/all other fits (excluding specific counter-fits, as they are what name implies - counters). So can sader with proper piloting skills/fit.


Most, yes, and that makes them just fine, needing no boost.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.07.22 08:06:00 - [930]
 

Originally by: Faffywaffy
Originally by: Gypsio III
What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction.



Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a *very* close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that.


Er, what exactly were you expecting? Fitting blasters, scrambler and web on an Incursus should not surprise anyone. Nor should the result when you take a rocket ship into its tackle range.

As for the kills you linked. There's barely a non-****** fit there. Scrambler Crusaders, injector-salvager Taranis, SML Crows, come on. Only one of those linked had an afterburner or was dual-prop.


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