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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.17 19:14:00 - [661]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners:

Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5


I can confirm it was NOT linked/quoted in this thread 3 times already. Not at all.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.18 10:45:00 - [662]
 

rocketing back to page1

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.05.18 15:49:00 - [663]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
rocketing back to page1



Thats funny I like it free bumb becouse your funny and rockies need to work as anti-frig weapons they were meant to be.

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:42:00 - [664]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Zendoren
Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners:

Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5


I can confirm it was NOT linked/quoted in this thread 3 times already. Not at all.


They all just want to make sure that we know that CCP's timeframe on fixing rockets is sometime between 6 months and 1,000 years.

Captain Muscles
Caldari
Vindictive Bastards
Posted - 2010.05.18 21:27:00 - [665]
 

I'd hate for this to reach the second page.

All hail Buffrawkets.

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.18 22:28:00 - [666]
 

Heh I was thinking about this last night and I thought of something.

Statement:
Given historical EVE ship designs and CCP's track record it is fair to say that at least one frigate T3 subsystem/ship will give bonuses to rockets.This ship/subsystem could be Caldari or Amar.

Question:
Will we get a rocket fix before they release a new ship using the currently broken rockets? What are the chances of another still-birth from CCP?

Taking bets.
Give you 5:1 for rockets after T3 frigates, 2:1 for rockets fixed with T3 and 20:1 for rockets fixed before T3 frigates.

Disclaimer:
I am in game poor and have to limit the currency of these bets to 'internets', sorry.





Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.05.19 08:09:00 - [667]
 

It seems they're doing a 'rework'. Rather than the fine tuning this problem needs. So basically, buff or nerf, it will be out of any reasonable magnitude, to then stay broken for years, either becoming foty or remaining worthless.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.19 12:40:00 - [668]
 

TL;DR: Wishful thinking on a mechanic rework for missiles as a whole.

If they do a rework I could "hope" for a rework of the missile mechanics on the whole. I'm not talking about the damage formula, that is fine (although it could use fine tuning on some specific values). But there are issues with missiles that make them a little sub par compared to guns... Namely the high travel times on long ranges (which could be reduced though not eliminated, I don't want another turret with different graphics), the launch vector and the range problem.

I have though about this for a while and I've come to the conclusion that to realistically solve those problems you would have to change from the partially physics based missile model we have now (they are temp objects that fly with dynamics akin to the ships) they would have to change to a simulation model (kind like the turrets).

This is difficult for a lot of reasons and necessarily time consuming, but the biggest problem, imho, with this is that right now the graphics for the missiles are an integral component of the damage mechanics as well. In particular, when you group missile launchers you get only one temp object instead of multiple ones. This single object has the combined damage of all the missiles launched with compound hp as well, but this means that it has a drawback: defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles). The same goes for area effects like bombs and smartbombs. As you can see the object is strictly tied to the damage mechanic (while this doesn't happen with turrets), and this is also one of the reasons that prevent CCP from giving missiles a higher speed (In testing giving increased speed to missiles broke the physics engine, with missiles phasing through objects and chtulian horrors appearing in CCP's offices).

I have considered this thing but can't really think of a simple workaround so a complete rework of the whole mechanics is wishful thinking at best, though it would make missiles more dirctly and easily comparable to turrets (and it'd also lighten the load on both server and client since you wouldn't have to compute the objects themselves but only some formula) and it would also allow a nicer graphic as well (you know, with missiles that actually fire from a launcher and are not... Pooped out of some hole)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.19 12:55:00 - [669]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
But there are issues with missiles that make them a little sub par compared to guns... Namely the high travel times on long ranges (which could be reduced though not eliminated, I don't want another turret with different graphics), the launch vector and the range problem.



TBH missile travel time is not a huge issue even with cerb at 200km. After a while you just get used to this and just learn how to pick proper targets. Launch vector is an issue with short range missiles: rockets, HAMs and torps. IMO ccp could just remove the whole "missile needs to speed up" thingy. IMO its outdated and not needed anymore + surely has to put some strain on server to calc it for every missile/volley. Just make missiles start with full speed and be done with it.

Quote:

I have though about this for a while and I've come to the conclusion that to realistically solve those problems you would have to change from the partially physics based missile model we have now (they are temp objects that fly with dynamics akin to the ships) they would have to change to a simulation model (kind like the turrets).



Not sure if it was in this thread or other one but yeh that was one of the conclusions. Do hit/miss (if target is in range) check at launch and leave rest on cliend side (pretty gfx where missile goes towards target) - but we know that target is hit already. I know it would partially remove the ability to outrun missiles but on other hand it would fix the issues with short range missiles never hitting their target.

Quote:
defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles).



Afaik defenders will always kill 0-1 missiles from salvo (they dont have enough damage to kill 2). Exception is NPC defenders which have nasty habit of killing even group of 6 torps (Thor torp spamming guristas station does this).

But yeh i do agree. Changing missiles from object to simulation can unlock higher missile speeds and generally seems like a good idea.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:54:00 - [670]
 

Edited by: yani dumyat on 19/05/2010 19:58:20

Originally by: Dreed Roberts

Taking bets.
Give you 5:1 for rockets after T3 frigates, 2:1 for rockets fixed with T3 and 20:1 for rockets fixed before T3 frigates.



Given that your post is number 666 I'll bet 100 severed heads on rockets being fixed with T3 (2:1) and have a wee punt of 15 sacrificial virgins on rockets being fixed before T3 frigates (20:1).

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:47:00 - [671]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 19/05/2010 20:47:52
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1321029

I fleshed out a little the idea above, though like the title says, it's mostly wishful thinking. There's the link to a google docs version of it for improved readability in the fourth post.

Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.19 23:06:00 - [672]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around.


This is what i call using brain while flying missile ship (and especially cerb). WHY do you attack target that you KNOW will die before your missiles hit him? Attack secondary/tertiary or pick your own targets. I never had problems getting on mails (even including top dealer) in fleet fights with cerb - mostly because i was operating independent from main target calling (killing sabres, EWar, bombers - so stuff i can kill easily with 2 salvos and stuff that isnt primaried).

Zachary Sikorsky
Posted - 2010.05.20 10:18:00 - [673]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Quote:
defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles).


Afaik defenders will always kill 0-1 missiles from salvo (they dont have enough damage to kill 2). Exception is NPC defenders which have nasty habit of killing even group of 6 torps (Thor torp spamming guristas station does this).

But yeh i do agree. Changing missiles from object to simulation can unlock higher missile speeds and generally seems like a good idea.


Think about the NPC scenario. They have a shoot defender chance / missile launched at them. So if a single defender kills the whole blob it is fine as long as just ONE shoot defender test is made per blob.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.20 11:40:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around.


This is what i call using brain while flying missile ship (and especially cerb). WHY do you attack target that you KNOW will die before your missiles hit him? Attack secondary/tertiary or pick your own targets. I never had problems getting on mails (even including top dealer) in fleet fights with cerb - mostly because i was operating independent from main target calling (killing sabres, EWar, bombers - so stuff i can kill easily with 2 salvos and stuff that isnt primaried).


Works up to a point. Three problems with what you say:
1) With a fleet big enough, even secondaries tertiaries will be almost instapopped
2) If there isn't a big number of enemies, like in an heavy gate camp, you're going to do no damage.
3) If the enemy is using RR heavily (either armor or shield), firing on secondary targets is actually helping them most of the time

Now, I don't ask for instant hits like turrets, I wouldn't want that. Just higher missile top speed... If you check the thread I linked above you will see the reasons why.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.20 12:00:00 - [675]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac

Works up to a point. Three problems with what you say:
1) With a fleet big enough, even secondaries tertiaries will be almost instapopped
2) If there isn't a big number of enemies, like in an heavy gate camp, you're going to do no damage.
3) If the enemy is using RR heavily (either armor or shield), firing on secondary targets is actually helping them most of the time



1. then chose your own targets based on your knowledge of battlefield. EWar, tacklers, bombers, dictors. Or just pick weakest of enemy bunch and fire on it. Even 1 cerb will force scorpion or pest off the field fairly quick.
2. that means you blobbed them and in really have no pity for this. In equal fights you will always hit something.
3. then you fire on primaries, obvious.

Its up to missile user to think a little more than "primary, secondary". Like i said: i use missiles on my alt heavily (well... shes caldari an she can ONLY use missiles so its obvious i use them for pvp) and i never had problems with this. Well except for rockets which kinda suck (tho they are still better on caldari boats than amarr ones) and cruises which suck a lot. Second one is partially my fault, TZer (or w/ever his name is spelled - guy from Burn Eden) was right :X

Quote:

Now, I don't ask for instant hits like turrets, I wouldn't want that. Just higher missile top speed... If you check the thread I linked above you will see the reasons why.


As i said i have no problem with this. Especially on close range missiles (like rockets) which funnily enough can be outrun...

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.21 00:04:00 - [676]
 

bumpin' bumpin' bumpin'
we'll just keep on bumpin'
'til its fixed...
rawhide!

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.21 01:26:00 - [677]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Stuff


...
Seriously?
Someone who actually knows how to use a Cerb?
Ok now this thread has gone totally insane.

Also confirming I also have no problems with missile flight time thanks to intelligent target choices.

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2010.05.21 21:40:00 - [678]
 

Pax Ammaria declares that for this thread to reach the second page is heresy!

Cheshire Katt
Tirpitz Innovations
Posted - 2010.05.22 06:52:00 - [679]
 

This is a loooong thread. Have we had any CCP input on it? Too many pages to read. It would just be nice to know that CCP hears us.

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.05.22 08:59:00 - [680]
 

Edited by: van Uber on 24/05/2010 21:51:05
Originally by: Cheshire Katt
This is a loooong thread. Have we had any CCP input on it? Too many pages to read. It would just be nice to know that CCP hears us.


As said on page 7: have no fear, they're working on it. It might not come with Dominion though and it might get postponed if they choose to release another expansion after that.

Originally by: CCP WeirdFish
Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :)


Originally by: CCP WeirdFish
Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it.

Cordin Hamir
Posted - 2010.05.22 09:58:00 - [681]
 

Originally by: CCP WeirdFish
Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it.


In other words - it probably will not be in your life time but there is a chance for your children or grand children.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.22 23:52:00 - [682]
 

Pax Caldari declares that for this thread to reach the second page is unprofitable!

Tub Chil
Posted - 2010.05.23 09:15:00 - [683]
 

Did anyone from CCp post here?

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.23 16:21:00 - [684]
 

Originally by: Tub Chil
Did anyone from CCp post here?


Last time they did, dinosaurs walked on earth but, yes, they did post.

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.24 05:40:00 - [685]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
Originally by: Tub Chil
Did anyone from CCp post here?


Last time they did, dinosaurs walked on earth but, yes, they did post.


Giggle

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.25 10:09:00 - [686]
 

On page 2 this is
Rockets are still needing fix
Back to page 1 now

Drenan
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.25 14:25:00 - [687]
 


CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born?

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.25 17:16:00 - [688]
 

Originally by: Drenan

CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born?


Already did that :X Didnt help it seems

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2010.05.25 18:05:00 - [689]
 

Originally by: Drenan

CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born?


Maybe if we send them some Exotic Dancers to hang out with we may be able to sneak in and make the changes ourselves.

Cyzlaki
Targeted Aggression
Posted - 2010.05.26 10:19:00 - [690]
 

Please fix this NOW rockets are broken !

11th hour tweak is all that is needed then can take it off the list and never have to deal with it again !

Please !


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