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Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
Posted - 2010.04.26 18:27:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
I'm beginning to wonder if CCP is going to be 'fixing' rocket explosion velocities and ignoring the needed 50% boost to rocket/light DPS, the needed 100% boost to velocity and 50% flight time reduction in rockets and HAMs (300% boost to velocity and 75% time reduction for torps), the flawed skills, the absurd fitting differences between rockets and lights as well as cruise and torps, precision missiles, the broken tracking mechanics, evolutionary scale inconsistencies...

Yeah, I could go on for hours.


Keep your OCD need to make everything step up in neat steps out of this thread.

Just boost rockets, it's two numbers FFS.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.04.26 20:54:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Krennel Darius
Originally by: Captain Muscles
Is today a good day to start training Rockets V?


No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it.


Rocket spec 5 krew checking in o/

Captain Muscles
Caldari
Vindictive Bastards
Posted - 2010.04.26 21:50:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Krennel Darius
Originally by: Captain Muscles
Is today a good day to start training Rockets V?


No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it.


Rocket spec 5 krew checking in o/
What a miserable wretch of a man! I am filled with the urge to go home and give Survey V a great big hug and tell her how sorry I am for not appreciating everything she has done for me.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.04.26 22:13:00 - [514]
 

survey 5 too :X

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.04.27 09:58:00 - [515]
 

Rockets 5 standing by

Number 17
Caldari
COLD-Wing
Posted - 2010.04.27 13:27:00 - [516]
 

As the Patch gets closer, we must raise our voices in unison.

FIX.ROCKETS.NOW.

Captain Muscles
Caldari
Vindictive Bastards
Posted - 2010.04.27 19:34:00 - [517]
 

Hi Cap here

please fix rockets so I can shoot evil pirates with them and make the world safer for the friendly pilots lol

ecks

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2010.04.27 21:57:00 - [518]
 

Look ma, its page 18!

Rockets V primed and ready to go.

OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!

We can has rawkits nao CCP plz?

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.04.27 22:35:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
Keep your OCD need to make everything step up in neat steps out of this thread.

Just boost rockets, it's two numbers FFS.
Keep your trolls and insults out of this thread, Halcyon and/or Gypsio.

And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity. If CCP are going to say they DID FIXED ROCKETS TAMARRO, it'd probably best if they knew what needed fixeding.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.04.27 23:47:00 - [520]
 

Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20
Originally by: Allen Ramses
And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity..
Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Neutral

I read your other post on missiles, and vaguely remember thinking the same thing as Cat, that you just wanted everything to fit into a nice progression for no real reason. Other than, I dunno, the need for nice symmetrical looking numbers.

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.04.28 01:22:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Allen Ramses on 28/04/2010 01:22:23
Originally by: Braitai
Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20
Originally by: Allen Ramses
And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity..
Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Neutral
Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not.

Quote:
I read your other post on missiles, and vaguely remember thinking the same thing as Cat, that you just wanted everything to fit into a nice progression for no real reason. Other than, I dunno, the need for nice symmetrical looking numbers.
If you had a choice between someone who was (admittedly) too detail oriented, or someone who was nearly incapable of observing detail (CCP Nozh), who would you choose to get the job done? Would you rather everything take twice as long, or would you rather everything be done with complete disregard for common sense? Which is worse?

EDIT: See your own signature.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.04.28 02:16:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not.
Great, so the 40 odd DPS a rocket malediction does to a webbed/scrammed duel prop 'ranis will instead do an amazing 60dps, possibly a little over 50dps to a Dramiel. Whereas a 150% increase in explosion velocity will result in about 80dps vs that 'ranis.

Quote:
If you had a choice between someone who was (admittedly) too detail oriented, or someone who was nearly incapable of observing detail (CCP Nozh), who would you choose to get the job done? Would you rather everything take twice as long, or would you rather everything be done with complete disregard for common sense? Which is worse?
Firstly, it's not about your supposed ability to be "detail orientated", it's your inability to justify your opinions. Secondly, I'm not choosing between you and CCP Nozh, am I?

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.04.28 07:43:00 - [523]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 28/04/2010 01:22:23
Originally by: Braitai
Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20
Originally by: Allen Ramses
And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity..
Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Neutral
Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not.



crap damage x1,5 is still crap damage. Dealing 20 or 30dps vs ABing frig doesnt really matter beause it is THAT low. So no, boosting DPS and not touching velocity wont do much. As was stated in this thread multiple times (and you did read the smart posts i hope) the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target).

Next: halving flight time on rockets would mean they would vanish before doing 1st turn towards target (or just after). Im rly not sure if CCP already fixed launch vector on some frigs (like vengeance) coz i havent used rockets for a long while now - but if they didnt you would ensure that those frigs would never actually hit their targets. At all. In this case rework of missile engine (physical) would be needed which is much larger problem than fixing 2 numbers in database.

And prolly other problems which i cant remember at a whim (just woke up, brain not functioning at 100% yet).

Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
Posted - 2010.04.28 09:35:00 - [524]
 

I heard defenders are getting fixed first

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.04.28 11:11:00 - [525]
 

Quote:
Explosion velocity is appropriate


I lol'd.

Please stop talking, or CCP might get the idea that this is anything but pure idiocy.

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.28 14:37:00 - [526]
 

Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive.

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.04.28 16:42:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive.


I'm dissatisfied with the lack of constructive development in such a simple implementation that will return the viability of several developed ships that are currently unused.

So when is CCP going to do something constructive?

Killmeded
Posted - 2010.04.28 17:04:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive.


We are sitting here in the dark.
An update would be nice.

Like
What is (or might) going to be changed? even if it is tenative.
What ideas are being looked at as the most likely to be used?

Is this change going to be on Sisi?
Is this change going to be in Tyrannis?

Are you just addressing rockets or the ships that fit them as well???
Are the other missile weapons being changed as well???
Are you going to change rockets at all???

It is difficult to be constructive when there is no feedback on what is actually going on with the matter.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.04.28 17:57:00 - [529]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive.


While troll removal is appreciated, I have to echo what the others have said about lack of any word.

The problem is, this thread has been going on so long and the fix is so easy that every aspect of it has been discussed to death already and all that remains overall is to keep the thread where it's noticable.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.04.28 18:11:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive.


It not meant to be personal offence, but it's rather hard to be constructive two years onward without even a sign of hope (bar one resent post, which was likely a joke).

scunner funk
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.04.28 18:54:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target).



Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise.

Assuming nothing's changed, the reason no one's whining about larger missile sizes is because it's so rare to find larger ships packing an AB. A caracal firing heavies at an AB stabber will get a whopping 70% damage reduction, even against slower cruisers like the thorax you're looking at 50% damage reduction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all missiles need changed, quite the opposite. QR was a great boost for torps and it makes me ask why a torp raven is as good as a rocket kestrel is bad? I think the answer ties in two places, one is the ravens ability to fit a web/painter and the other is the fact that few (if any) battleships can match the paper dps of a raven.

I'd love to see rockets go the same way as torps and get a massive increase in damage with the trade off that you're not going to hit for full damage unless you've brought webby friends. One thing's for sure though, whatever they do to rockets a similar buff is needed for light missiles.

If you've used light missiles much you'll know how the damage just drops off against AB frigates, it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate.

Henri Rearden
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.28 20:57:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: scunner funk
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target).



Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise.

Assuming nothing's changed, the reason no one's whining about larger missile sizes is because it's so rare to find larger ships packing an AB. A caracal firing heavies at an AB stabber will get a whopping 70% damage reduction, even against slower cruisers like the thorax you're looking at 50% damage reduction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all missiles need changed, quite the opposite. QR was a great boost for torps and it makes me ask why a torp raven is as good as a rocket kestrel is bad? I think the answer ties in two places, one is the ravens ability to fit a web/painter and the other is the fact that few (if any) battleships can match the paper dps of a raven.

I'd love to see rockets go the same way as torps and get a massive increase in damage with the trade off that you're not going to hit for full damage unless you've brought webby friends. One thing's for sure though, whatever they do to rockets a similar buff is needed for light missiles.

If you've used light missiles much you'll know how the damage just drops off against AB frigates, it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate.


Hrmm... that's interesting, I didn't know the other missile systems suffered from the same weaknesses as rockets. Aside from maybe needing a small base damage boost, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that CCP probably doesn't consider rockets an issue for the most part since they are in line with other missile systems. I know we've gotten "rockets are being looked at" responses, but really the only responses I want to get are "yes, we think that rockets are broken too and we're working on them, they're just not high on our priority list," or "no, rockets are fine, they're working as intended since we really only wanted people to use them against slow NPC ships."

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.04.28 21:06:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: scunner funk
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target).



Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise.



Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest.
AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web.
AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction.

Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction.
Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction.

Now lets look at DPS of each ship class. Rocket ships tend to deal around 80-100dps, their own ship class (gun frigs) usually go around 150-200 dps. So they start off with half of DPS already. Cruiser sized? Cerberus (sorry i dunno caracal off my head) does around 350-400dps in heavy missile setup wheras cruiser class does around 300-500dps. Tanks on all frigs or all cruisers are similiar. Result? While damage reduction from web or non-web are more-less the same (with sole exception of dramiel and ceptors which need 2 webs on them to actually get damaged by rockets and uber-fast cruisers like vaga or stabber which also need 2 webs) the DPS isnt - rockets compared to other ships in their class are far behind compared to heavies (long range ones!) vs others in their respective class.

Another factor: midslots. Rocket ships usually have 3 mids thus its impossible to create anti-ceptor rocket ship because of lack of midslots (mwd, web, scrambler and... thats it). Cruisers have it tad easier due to having 4-5mids (sacri being 4mid one). So all in all - rockets are hurt in both departments. Rocket ships both lack comparable DPS to heavy missile counterparts (and HMLs are long range ones...) and they lack mids to actually fit webs to apply their damage on favouret target. It is ESPECIALLY visible on heretic which was designed as frigate killer yet it cannot kill ceptors due to above.

So yeh you answered your own quesiton. Its not explo velocity alone. Its explo velocity+missile (and target) velocity+amount of slots for ewar+amount of drones+DPS in their own respective class. Of which underlined elemends can be fixed by boosting explo velocity alone. More explo v. = less need for midslots for painters/webs (which frigs lack) and less need for TP/web drones (which frigs lack). Then there would DPS issue remain but i can forget about it if im able to apply current DPS on targets. Plus i myself prefer fixing stuff by small steps (tho it seems ccp thinks otherwise... one "fix" once per 3 years).

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.04.29 02:14:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest.
AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web.
AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction.

Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction.
Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction.

This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one.

What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.04.29 02:55:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one.
The thing about how turret DPS is calculated though, is that an AB on your own ship can be used to counter the AB on someone else's, since you can fly manually to reduce transversal.

My scam/web fit rocket Malediction will destroy any MWD 'sader, since it can get under it's guns quite easily. An AB 'sader however absolutely murders my male, not just because of the amount of damage reduction it gets (around 50%) but because transversal drops close to zero assuming the 'sader pilot actually knows what they're doing, bringing a full 150-200dps.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.04.29 03:42:00 - [536]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest.
AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web.
AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction.

Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction.
Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction.

This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one.

What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically.


I agree partly...

What shocked me to the core the other day was...

Sitting on the FFA1 beacon in a Cerberus then all of a sudden an Amarr t2 interceptor starts burning 5kms towards me... I'm some 170km away... I think great I'll fire the missiles at him (T2 Damage HM) by the time my missiles get close he'll be in range and then he'll be toast with that sig radius!!!

However... to my surprise I landed a whopping 2.3 damage on him... WHAT THE ****?

He has a 500% sig radius bonus, he's flying directly towards me and my missiles don't land any damage? WTF?

Dont bull**** me with some explosion velocity ****, that missile would go straight through him.

Sig radius seems to have little to no effect when speed comes into missiles.


Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.04.29 04:45:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: Amberlamps
Sig radius seems to have little to no effect when speed comes into missiles.
Interceptors get a large reduction in MWD sig bloom, 500% goes down to 125% at level V, so it's sig would have been a little over 70m.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.04.29 08:12:00 - [538]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/04/2010 08:24:51

Originally by: Amberlamps

I agree partly...

What shocked me to the core the other day was...

Sitting on the FFA1 beacon in a Cerberus then all of a sudden an Amarr t2 interceptor starts burning 5kms towards me... I'm some 170km away... I think great I'll fire the missiles at him (T2 Damage HM) by the time my missiles get close he'll be in range and then he'll be toast with that sig radius!!!

However... to my surprise I landed a whopping 2.3 damage on him... WHAT THE ****?




This is because you're a dribbling moron. You were using "T2 high damage" heavy missiles against a damn interceptor. WTF did you expect to happen, using a weapon designed to attack battlecruisers and battleships against a damn frigate?

Originally by: scunner funk
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all missiles need changed, quite the opposite. QR was a great boost for torps and it makes me ask why a torp raven is as good as a rocket kestrel is bad? I think the answer ties in two places, one is the ravens ability to fit a web/painter and the other is the fact that few (if any) battleships can match the paper dps of a raven.


As noted above:

ABs are common on frigates but exceedingly rare on larger ships, and Raven etc has slots, PG and CPU to fit the necessary support modules to increase missile effectiveness, and in any case torps don't actually require web or painter support against many BS.

The rockets problem is a combination of many things - the need for a single web against non-AB frigates, the need for dual-web against AB frigates, the absence of medslots and fittings on frigates, the excessive fitting requirements of rocket launchers, the small clip size, the low base damage, the too-low explosion velocity...

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.04.29 08:37:00 - [539]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 29/04/2010 08:38:56
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest.
AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web.
AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction.

Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction.
Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction.

This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one.

What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically.


What you are illustrating is your inability of comprehensive reading. I already posted which issues would be fixed with explo velocity boost. Namely (and i do hate repeating myself): lack of mids AND drones for TP/webs. Easy example: eris. Second - heretic.

Another hint: turret ship can improve hit quality by manual ship control - its kinda easy if you actually know you can do this. Missile ship cannot do this. It doesnt matter if transversal is 0 or 600 - explo velocity will be compared versus target velocity every time. Add lower DPS of rockets in their own respective ship class and we have whats now on TQ.

So again: read my post, read posts on previous pages (launch vector, missile velocity issues) coz i wont repeat myself.

EDIT:
also its worth noting that there isnt cruiser or BS sized class copying interceptors. Only frigs get super-high velocity ship type which is major screw up on missile users side. Rockets were balanced (as it shows above) against circa 800-1000m/s ships with 34 sig. Not against 2x faster ones.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.04.29 12:47:00 - [540]
 

Rockets ARE lame

I bought a Malediction - and I had to put projectiles on it to hit ANYTHING... Even in a short range setup where I MWD'ed to target and activated warp SCRAMBLER and webifier my rockets didnt even hit target up that close WTF?

Nice to have an interceptor with long range bonus to scramblers/Disruptors and then give it useless rockets WITH A DAMAGE bonus LOL...


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