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Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.22 17:20:00 - [1]
 

Please, NO missiles whinage here.

Rockets have been subject of a clearly wrong rebalancing. To see it, check out the explosion speeds of heavies/torpedoes: the are higher than the guided versions'. This makes sense, balancing factors are speed and explosion radius.

Rockets otoh have explosion speed=missiles+10%-100. This gives them explosion speed slower than the heavy missiles, lol frigate weapon?! They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage... I think it's clear that some dev dropped a 1 in front of the value when doing some late night updating, and as they're not widely used weapons, this falled down in the middle of the general missile nerf whinage.

Please correct! Thanks!

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.22 17:38:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage...


Learn to missiles.

Sig radius/explo radius also comes into equation. And vs cruisers rockets will deal full damage most of the time (even if cruiser uses AB).

If there is problem with rocket explo velocity/radius then its vs same ship class. What i mean: they suck at taking out frigs and are anti-frig weapon.

K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House
Posted - 2009.02.22 22:54:00 - [3]
 

agreeing with OP here... rockets do seem a little mehhhhhhhhh

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.22 23:13:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:15:09
Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:13:54
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Learn to

Please, I asked no trolling. If you want to be constructive check this very informative thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280
where you can find the correct formula. That thread is generic, I'd like this one to be only about missiles. A fast cruiser can lower even rocket damage, with speed, no matter how bigger its sig radius is than the missile's explosion range.

And with frigates it becomes sad. From which the lollabity of Khanid ships, to say one.

Can something be done about this?

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.02.23 10:40:00 - [5]
 

I think I agree...
Quote:

Assault ship roles range from an offensive tackler to an anti-frigate ship. Being a frigate-class ship, these ships can be very fast and agile while still able to due a fair amount of damage.

Vengeance and hawk fail the "anti-frigate" part thanks mainly to rockets. Imho a mwd frigate, webbed and scrambled, should be taking around full damage from rockets.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.23 12:25:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:15:09
Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:13:54
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Learn to

Please, I asked no trolling. If you want to be constructive check this very informative thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280
where you can find the correct formula. That thread is generic, I'd like this one to be only about missiles. A fast cruiser can lower even rocket damage, with speed, no matter how bigger its sig radius is than the missile's explosion range.

And with frigates it becomes sad. From which the lollabity of Khanid ships, to say one.

Can something be done about this?


And im not trolling here. You clearly dont understand how that formula works. If you dont, open the XLS file (in thread you linked) and check graphs.

The rocket graph clearly shows that even versus 2km/s target (thats one VERY fast cruiser) you deal 40% damage if his sig radius is 70. If he burns MWD cruiser sig radius gets to around 600-700 thus gets almost full or full damage (cba to extrapolate or count it from equation right now; sitting at work ;p).

When it comes to AB cruisers you are looking at around 400m/s speeds with sig of 120+. On said graph it easily shows that vs 400m/s target you get 100% damage when its sig hits around 65m. As cruisers are twice this size they get hit for full damage.

800m/s cruisers will be hit for around 90% damage (just did fast on-screen extrapolation due to lack of time).

Only problem will be AB vaga which is quite fast. Counter? Same as always - web it.


So to sum up: rockets hitting cruiser sized targets hit for full (or almost full) damage.

Problems start at the point i stated earlier: when you are engaging frigs. AB ceptor is virtually immune to rocket fire (30% damage) and even after getting webbed it bumps up to 40-45% damage. Add poor rocket base damage and you end up with anti-frig system which cant kill frigs.

Mephesto Nizal
Best Path Inc.
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2009.02.23 12:34:00 - [7]
 

devs, do a bit of last minute tweaking for heavens sake to get this thing sorted :(

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.23 15:31:00 - [8]
 

The problem of the graphs is that the rockets are really the black sheep of missiles. Nobody cares. What I feel in game as a low skill points character is different. And we're not discussing the time I spent skilling here, high skills will make this problem be felt less, but the problem persists.

And even if the guy got the formula and all the parameters right, still,
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))
He found out that rocket drf= 3 so
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 125/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5)))
= Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644)
So damage gets nerfed when 1>(521.25/vel)^0.644 -> vel < 521.25

That's quite reachable. Of course the double web on cruiser was quite a hyperbole, but at still one is necessary for pvp cruisers. And I don't think this is right, that weapon should be able to center drones not friggin' space trucks...

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.23 15:50:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:55:15
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:53:11
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:51:38
Where did you get 80 sig from? Most cruisers start at 110+ (vaga is 115). 80 is destroyer size.

With 115 sig you get 718m/s.

EDIT:
actually i think vaga is smallest one (deimos 160 O_o thats one fat cow)

EDIT2:
and like i said before: rockets do suck, but not vs cruisers (vs cruisers they are quite decent actually from small weapons). They suck vs frigs on level that torps suck vs cruisers.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.23 16:24:00 - [10]
 

One a seperate not, rocket do need a base damge boost. As a close range wepaon the pretty much suck.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.23 16:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
One a seperate not, rocket do need a base damge boost. As a close range wepaon the pretty much suck.


Yup. And not 5% boost but sth around 20-25%.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.23 22:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Where did you get 80 sig from?

I see no 80? I used 125, 85 is the rocket explosion speed.

Imho the rocket is good as it is, in terms of raw damage. But the explosion speed is so wrong that the whole leaves an impression of uselessness.

The cruiser talk is sending this thread astray, it was only to say how wrong the explosion speed is. Imho explosion speed should be like a fast AB frigate webbed once. I really think it's just a matter of an error, like dropping a 2 from 285.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.26 14:40:00 - [13]
 

Nobody cares about rockets... It's obvious.. But if they're so mistreated it is because they're sub-par...

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.26 14:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Where did you get 80 sig from?

I see no 80? I used 125, 85 is the rocket explosion speed.

Imho the rocket is good as it is, in terms of raw damage. But the explosion speed is so wrong that the whole leaves an impression of uselessness.



And this is where you are quite wrong. Ignoring the explosion velocity part (which should be fixed too) here is short list of what is wrong with rockets:
- their DPS sucks: rocket launcher WITH 25% damage bonus (malediction, vengeance etc) deals as much damage as unbonused 200mm autocannon while its fitting is MUCH worse
- "but they have range" you will say - yes sure they "theoretically" can reach up to 10km. Remove 2km for "speed up" and you get 8km. Remove 2-4km from range if you are kiting enemy (running from him) - because rockets are fired IN FRONT of ship and then they turn back - and you get 4-6km effective range. Now if target its not webbed and orbits - rocket will never hit. Missile agility is just buggered.
- they are anti-frig weapon which cant hit frigs - they are just too slow. Even heavy missiles are up to 3x faster than rockets. Result: needs velocity fixed (even at cost of dropping flight time). But if we include bad agility and wrong launch vector of missiles (especially visible on vengeance) then if we increase velocity 2x and decrease flight speed 2x rockets will just vanish before they even start tracking target.

Result? Whole "missile launch" mechanics should be looked at.

I could go on but dont have time nor i cba to do so. I bug reported the issues ages ago, was accepted waiting for fix.

Quote:

The cruiser talk is sending this thread astray, it was only to say how wrong the explosion speed is. Imho explosion speed should be like a fast AB frigate webbed once. I really think it's just a matter of an error, like dropping a 2 from 285.


With this one i can agree. Rockets vs ab frig = lolz. It just doesnt work, even if frig is webbed.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.02.26 14:59:00 - [15]
 

Not sure exactly what should be done to balance things, but it's clear that rockets are currently pretty much a joke. An anti-frigate weapon that most frigates can just laugh at? I'm ok with them doing relatively low damage generally, but they should be able to apply 100% of that damage to a frigate, especially a webbed one.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.02.26 15:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
With this one i can agree. Rockets vs ab frig = lolz. It just doesnt work, even if frig is webbed.


Yeah. Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates - they'll do full damage to webbed, non-ABing T1 frigs and AFs, and not lose too much from inties.

But the problem is that ABs are actually viable and common on frigates and that rocket platforms often don't have room for a web themselves. Add the missile flight path issues, poor base DPS and tricky fitting requirements and you've got a weapon system that needs help.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.26 23:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates

Well, yeah, but how many of these do you see? Excluding scrambled mwders...

And even in that best-case scenario, rockets lose damage!! Shocked

Maths to back this wild statement:
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))
sig=35 rifter (up to 44 tristan)
Er=20
Ev=85
drf=3
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 40/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5)))
= Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644)
So damage gets nerfed when 1>(148/vel)^0.644 -> vel > 148
There aren't many frigates that go faster than this when webbed... But there are some. Moreover, if you start to consider skills, augmentations and warfare links that lower your sig radius you see that the speed lowers even more, and the damage reduction is faster and faster.

Adaera
Posted - 2009.02.27 00:33:00 - [18]
 

A free bump for a broken weapon system.
They need a damage boost accross the board and just maybe the ability to, you know, hit things...
CCP, really, how long would it take just to make a few stat tweaks on this?

Vall Kor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.27 15:51:00 - [19]
 

The devs really do need to look into the issue of missiles/rockets. That platform is punished by flight time where turrets are not, one fix is to increase the flight speed and explosion speed of missiles.

Well hopefully they'll take a second look at this platform.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.02.27 16:22:00 - [20]
 

Just to make sure you haven't forgot one vital aspect, nothing in regards to rockets itself that may be crappy, i am a turret user myself.

Missiles have a higher chance of dealing damage to a target, as long as the target is in range and isn't flying too fast, they deal damage. While turrets are more random, they only hit when they can track the target.

Missiles are exempt from the tracking issue and are only affected by damage reduction on fast moving targets. In a situation where missiles can deal damage EVERY time but turrets have no chance, missiles rule. A fast moving (nano) missile boat can deal damage to a stationary target 100% of the time, while a fast moving turret user is affected by the tracking he is causing by moving fast.

Just make sure you consider this before comparing a missile to an autocannon.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.27 16:34:00 - [21]
 

Thanks for the support guys.

Originally by: Vall Kor
The devs really do need to look into the issue of missiles/rockets. That platform is punished by flight time where turrets are not, one fix is to increase the flight speed and explosion speed of missiles.

And agility as some poster above mentioned, I gather. I can't find numbers for rocket agility though... I always assumed the circles and accelerations that they do are graphics only, because the old missiles guide says that flight distance = speed x time.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.27 16:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cadde
Just make sure you consider this before comparing a missile to an autocannon.


Yes indeed; this is why I don't take the position of some others above who say to raise the rocket raw damage. But the explosion speed is really terrible! It lowers an already low damage exactly in the cases where rockets are supposed to shine, anti frigs and anti drones.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.02.27 16:50:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mohenna

And agility as some poster above mentioned, I gather. I can't find numbers for rocket agility though... I always assumed the circles and accelerations that they do are graphics only, because the old missiles guide says that flight distance = speed x time.


Missiles are not affected by agility. Only their velocity. Where as guns basically hit or miss instantly. Missiles travel to their target and they travel by X m/s, you really have to think of them as 100 m range tacklers with a 100% chance to hit as long as they don't run out of cap or are too slow.

Indeed you can say "flight distance = Speed x time" but keep in mind that the target is moving away so you have to deduct/add some range to allow for them to reach their target.

If the missile is moving at 5,000 m/s and the target is moving away from you at 2,500 m/s then your net gain will be 2,500 m/s on that target. With a flight time of 10 seconds, what shows as 50 km's on paper turns into 25 effective range. If the target is beyond that range your missile will not catch up.
The opposite is true when the target is approaching you. Then your 50 km range on paper is actually 75 km's in reality if the target continues his path straight for you. Only difference is that when moving away from you, the only thing the target can do is go straight away from you to avoid getting hit or outpace the missile. When approaching you all he has to do is stop at your theoretical max range. But should he approach you at the same speed you can indeed launch at 75 and hit him at 50 as the two will meet there.

//Cadde, blah blah blah.

Altris
Posted - 2009.02.27 18:02:00 - [24]
 

Please fix rockets. All Khanid capsuleers will be grateful.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.02.27 18:27:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 27/02/2009 18:30:20
Originally by: Altris
Please fix rockets. All Khanid capsuleers will be grateful.


This.
I've posted it in suggestions thread 8 months ago, but my comment has been deleted (3 times) with idiotic "stay on topic" resolution.

Here's a copy:
Quote:
Module: Rockets (torpedoes seems to be okay, HAM's have issues, but I unsure about possible fixes)
Issue: They're sucks, comparing... to anything.
Okay, I know (well, I really know) - it is absolutely separate weapon classes, but some parallels exists. At least light missiles are closer counterpart, than, say, drones or guns.

So, keeping it in mind:

Issue #1: Reload time affecting rockets DPS insanely. Namely by 10%.
I've had feeling that all what i'm doing flying my Vengeance, is waiting for rocket launchers to reload... then I've placed numbers on paper... and saw it was not only feeling.

Suggested fix: Increase launcher capacity. (Double it at least)

Issue #2: Single rocket doing close to no damage, they're fired very often, resulting in Issue #1 plus huge load to EVE cluster.
Suggestion: Increase duration, damage in half.

Issue #3: Rockets are slow.
Really... Not a counter to interceptors. Not even close to. I suggest increase in speed. From half to twice increase.

Who want to play with numbers:
Screenshot and OOo calc document

ADD: Considering all these changes,
Suggested addition: Increase rocket launchers fitting cost a bit. More precisely, increase PG usage slightly (keep in mind to increase available PG on some ships as well, if that hurts them, namely Kestrel has so weak powergrid, depends on increase, it may never be able to fit rockets on it any more)


And I agree with OP of this thread, rockets now doing crappy damage to the frigs due to sig radius and rocket damage calculation formula changes.
Twice nerfed weapon :/

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.02.27 23:01:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Mohenna on 27/02/2009 23:01:37
Am I the only one with this feeling that rockets explosion speed was intended to be 285 and the 2 dropped?

The posts that speak about rocket speed raise good points too. But there seems to be a divergence in opinions, as some say that agility matters while others don't. The missiles guide seems to agree with the no agility version. I've been surfing to try and find an answer but I can't manage. Is there anybody with a definitive answer about this?

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.02.28 11:50:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Am I the only one with this feeling that rockets explosion speed was intended to be 285 and the 2 dropped?

That sounds likely.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.03.02 13:23:00 - [28]
 

Well thanks for the support everybody. I added a post to the humongous apocrypha feature request thread... Not that I have much hope for that to work...

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.03.02 14:20:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Originally by: Gypsio III
Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates

Well, yeah, but how many of these do you see? Excluding scrambled mwders...

And even in that best-case scenario, rockets lose damage!! Shocked

Maths to back this wild statement:
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))
sig=35 rifter (up to 44 tristan)
Er=20
Ev=85
drf=3
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 40/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5)))
= Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644)
So damage gets nerfed when 1>(148/vel)^0.644 -> vel > 148


Well, that was my point, that ABs are semi-viable on frigates.

I think there's a problem with your maths though - I'm showing full damage with rockets against a 35 m sig Rifter webbed to 215 m/s, with rockets of explo rad 20 m and explo vel 127.5 m/s and the threshold velocity being 223 m/s. Ah, that's the problem, you haven't accounted for TNP in your rocket explosion velocity.

But this is away from the point - many frigates don't have the slots to sensibly fit a web, ABs are a semi-viable option on frigates, rocket fitting requirements are excessive, base damage is too low and it's too easy to lose several km of range because of stupid flight path issues.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.03.03 14:00:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
you haven't accounted for TNP in your rocket explosion velocity

Yep, on the other hand, I didn't account for the skills/mindlinks that increase velocity and the mindlinks/boosters/implants that decrease sig radius either... Tha analysis can go down to ridiculous depths, but since the top damage is fixed - rocket raw damage - I think that limiting the necessities to one web is cool. Skills can offset for advanced defences.


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