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Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
Posted - 2009.03.02 09:37:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Brixer on 02/03/2009 09:43:29
Originally by: CCP Incognito

So miners will have to take protection, and there will be no warping between belts to get spawns. The low end w-space system should be solo able with a battle cruiser that you have decent skills and modules for.

hope this answers your question.




How do you know if you are in a low-end w-space? I found a w-space with 2 WH to 0.0, 1 WH to hi-sec and 1 WH to another unknown. Rats they would eat a BC < 1 min. On the other hand, all the rare gases, including C540, and all the ore starting with Arkanor, bistot was present in the system.

I would think this is classified as hi-end?
But with WH to hi-sec? Is hi-sec gates WH in such systems a bug?




ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.02 10:01:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Brixer
Edited by: Brixer on 02/03/2009 09:43:29
Originally by: CCP Incognito

So miners will have to take protection, and there will be no warping between belts to get spawns. The low end w-space system should be solo able with a battle cruiser that you have decent skills and modules for.

hope this answers your question.




How do you know if you are in a low-end w-space? I found a w-space with 2 WH to 0.0, 1 WH to hi-sec and 1 WH to another unknown. Rats they would eat a BC < 1 min. On the other hand, all the rare gases, including C540, and all the ore starting with Arkanor, bistot was present in the system.

I would think this is classified as hi-end?
But with WH to hi-sec? Is hi-sec gates WH in such systems a bug?






a few points i think the use of a cloaked prober to see what is in such sits first u can get a fair idea a rookie ship is an easy scout. or cov ops to scan sites out u would report back what u have then select ships to go through.

Im guessing the mass on the womrhole would be a good guide, not a bug i dont think wormholes arent exclusive according to connection to known space so as u say high to w to 0.0 is possible or any combination.

Its not as set in stone as existing empire space

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:10:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 02/03/2009 21:18:25
Edited by: Trimutius III on 02/03/2009 21:11:51
We have tried Logistics vs. Sleepers... And result is quite good. So what did we get.
We had 2 Basilisk fitted with 4 Shield Transpoters, 2 Energy Transfers, 4 shield hardeners (EM, Kinetic, Explosive and Invul) Large Shield Extender, Reactor Control and Damage Control + 2 CCC rigs. (both pilots had logistics level 4)

We've got quite a hard anomaly. 2 BS, 9 cruisers, 3 sentries, 6 frigs. We have syncrowarped into complex and started to boost each other. Sleepers had focused one of logistics but didn't managed to break our defence soon they changed primary but logistics were similar so they didn't managed to kill another one too.

So we needed some damage. Raven warped in. Sleepers focused Raven as soon as it warped in. but logistics managed to boost him really good and fast, so soon sleepers changes primary to one of the logistics.

Then tempest warped in.. But it was badly tanked so logistics weren't able to boost him (too low resist i suppose) but somewhy sleepers released warp scramble from tempest and he warped out. (he warped at 100 km several times each time some sleepers went to him but didn't always scramble him. So he managed to stay alive but he went out of wormhole in structure.

Then Dominix warped in (shield tanked). We managed to boost him while he was under focus but then it was no use.. He lost many Garde II and then warped out.

Raven wasn't able to kill anything but sentries. There is needed more damage (though it was quite good raven 2 Ballistic Contorls, T2 Cruise, 5 lvl BS) sentries wasn't repairing at all so they died after about 50 volleys (many hitpoints) all other ships as soon as they got under 50% of armor their mates started to remote repair their armor and so Raven wasn't able to break that tank alone and we didn't managed to find more damagedealers on a test server nearby.

Logistics tried to warp out. But sleepers really hate logistics so they didn't let us go. We lost them there.

So Logistic do work against sleepers. No jam at all Neutrolizer not good enough for logistics.

There is sequence:
  • Logistics come into complexes and start too boost each other
  • if everything is ok then damage dealers comes into scene one by one
  • As soon as new ship appears Sleepers make him primary and logistics need to fastly lock him and start boosting as soon as possible
  • After sleepers have changed primary from newcomer to someone else another damagedealer can warp inх


P.S. The same could be done with Guardians i think.
P.P.S. It is good if damagedealer have their own shield booster (Armor repairer with Guardians) to give some time for logistics to activate Shield Transpoter (Remote Armor Reps)

ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.03 05:25:00 - [124]
 

would something like force recon cruisers, add to that EW platforms like the blackbird would they be of some use as far as sensor dampening. Now imagine this is TQ and u loose those ships will the loot from the site be wroth it for the losses

CCP needs to consider this to

Jack Jombardo
Amarr
Cosmic Allianz
Posted - 2009.03.03 16:39:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 03/03/2009 16:41:32
Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 03/03/2009 16:39:41
Originally by: ollobrains2
would something like force recon cruisers, add to that EW platforms like the blackbird would they be of some use as far as sensor dampening. Now imagine this is TQ and u loose those ships will the loot from the site be wroth it for the losses

CCP needs to consider this to


I finished a "medium"(??) Anomaly today with 1 Abbadon (heavy tanked) and 1 Hyena (my twink). Used ECM drones from the Abbadon (work quit well) and TD/WEB from the Hyena.

It starts with 2 * "cruiser medium 1" and 2 * "cruiser medium 2" (med 2 webs). Sending the ECM drones to the med 2 worked well. Started to kill the med 1 and had no big isues followed by the med 2.
Next wave had been 2 * med 1, 2 * med 2 and 1 * med 3 (if I remember correct, this one neuts but low amounts). I used the ECM against the Med 3 this time to avoid NEUT. Med 3 was the trigger which leads me to allways let the highest ship alive until I finished all other.
The last wave had been 4 cruiser (med 1 to 3) and one BS (med somthink). Here I brought my Hyena-alt, set him to orbit the BS at 17 with full EW on it. The BS started to shot the Hyena but never did any real damage (missile hit for 20 or so, laser never) which was good as the Hyena had absolut no tank at all *g*.

Took me some time to finish this with 2 warpouts becouse of the neuting (Abaddon isn't very cap stable with all active).

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.03 19:10:00 - [126]
 

tbh when i first heard about sleepers my first thought was hey motherships might not be completely useless anymore ! but apparently they can't get through most of the time ?

ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.04 06:47:00 - [127]
 

the mass limitations mean for motherships to go in youre going to need gang mates to find a way in to assist, probably a pos setup for safespots, take advantage of wormholes to youre home region or to empire or other low sec and then get additional forces in, i see this sleeper space being for those with combat and probing alts and probably mid to large aliances take not ownership but permanent operations within certain wspace systems.

They if each wormhole on the day permits be good transit points for cross regional or cross map small 20-30 man bs fleets on a way way trip on suicide pvp ops or ninja ratting ops or other operations

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.03.04 08:21:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 04/03/2009 08:26:31
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
tbh when i first heard about sleepers my first thought was hey motherships might not be completely useless anymore ! but apparently they can't get through most of the time ?

Some of wormholes let in up to 3 carriers for example (maybe even 4 didn't tried)... So There is a possibility for mothership to come in and even to come out. There is another problem... What will u do with mothership in there? If just to use ship bay, then better just jump in with ships that u may put in ship bay (much less mass).

And don't even think about using fighters against sleepers Wink (too expensive and to hard to bring new fighters into W-space instead of lost ones)

Garde II may be a better choice, and first shoot cruisers then BS, then frigs... (less agro on drones as i heard if u use such tactics)

Geanos
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Posted - 2009.03.04 11:13:00 - [129]
 

Hi, I have a question.
As Gallente, do you think that the rail Mega/Hyperion/Astarte are the only ships to use against the sleepers, since the drone ships are almost impossible to use and mounting blasters will take you out from the DPS count (travel alot from target to target)?

Cruciare
Posted - 2009.03.04 14:22:00 - [130]
 

Dear Devs, can you please make wormholes that difficult that you need a supercap to finish it? Cause there is actually no reason to fly motherships in Game.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.05 23:59:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 06/03/2009 00:00:35
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 05/03/2009 23:59:41
Originally by: Geanos
Hi, I have a question.
As Gallente, do you think that the rail Mega/Hyperion/Astarte are the only ships to use against the sleepers, since the drone ships are almost impossible to use and mounting blasters will take you out from the DPS count (travel alot from target to target)?

This is the way it seems. They target drones in an almost religious fashion. It's never just 'Hey, these probes are hurting me, im going to shoot them' it's 'Primary, Warrior II' as soon as a frig starts to take a little damage.

Blasters and AC are useless because cruisers and frigs web. The cruisers web at 15k. That leaves, as you said, rail Mega/Hyperion/Astarte.

I've yet to try out sites other than unknowns in W-space, im hoping the profession sites have less DPS or else im going to have to swap out my trusty exploring Ishtar for a BS. I'm not sure a rail Astarte would cut it and i need the mids for analyzer/codebreaker so i dont think a Slep would either.

Troxel
Phantasmal Collective
Wicked Nation
Posted - 2009.03.06 07:04:00 - [132]
 

So found a worm hole and a group of us went in. Found an Unknown Sleeper Garrison I think it was called.
First group of sleepers was 5 Frigates and 5 Cruisers. We were 2 RR Domi's and 2 Tengu. Domi's had a 1sheild and 1armor remote repper each. Cake. We worked our way thru... Drones never were targeted, they would switch to find a hole in our tanks but we held no problem.
Second Group was like 8 Frigates and 4 Battleships. WTFPWNBBQSAUCE... I was primaried as I had a cycle yet to end on a remote repper. The other Domi and my own repper kept me alive for 2.34 seconds. Then Tengu's warped as the other Domi died with me.

So we came back this time with 3 Domi's 1 with 2 armor and the others with 1 armor 1 sheild. A Rook, and a Thanatos... Looking back we should have had the Thanatos warp in first, cause as I came out of warp I must have triggers the OMGWTFPWNTMELTFACEBBQSAUCE... cause we had 9 Battleships staring us down... I pretty much insta popped, the other 2 Domi's followed suit, the rook warped off with some hull and the Thantos came in time to get tackled.
Once tackled it was about 5 minutes for those 9 battleships to tear thru him... himself taking 954k damage. Rook came back once to jam as he could and warp off, but died.ugh
So what has any other groups done to try and survive the wave of 9, or has anyone ran into it?

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2009.03.06 15:03:00 - [133]
 

Just some feedback on Drone use really.

Proteus, Using "Augmented Drone Plating" defensive module.

Drones still get alpha'd by say 4 Awakened Cruisers. GardeIIs last about long enough to scoop, but hammer 2s drop like flies.

10% drone HP per level for this mod. I'd say it's pointless module. Not up to the job. (at least for sleeper stuff). Better off with moar guns !

Zepher Bronyn
Echo Holdings
Posted - 2009.03.07 05:06:00 - [134]
 

We did one that had like 3 sentries, 5 or 6 frigates 5 or 6 cruisers and 12 BS and we went in with a hac, that was toasted pretty quickly, then warped in a Moros and a Thanatos. The carriers fighters were targetted as soon as they were deployed and the sleepers basically toyed with them switching to hit my drones or his fighters, whichever was on a target, the Moros made quick work of the sentries but could not hit the BS for anything they were always orbiting and always seemed to have maximum transversal. Eventually after deciding they had played around enough the sleepers polished off the Thanatos and switched to the Moros, Cruisers kited the heavy drones and not one ship was killed by any drones. The Moros held out until the last cycle of stront was used up. Then only lasted about 3 minutes.

Nadja Markov
Brainwash Industries
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2009.03.07 12:38:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Troxel
Found an Unknown Sleeper Garrison I think it was called. WTFPWNBBQSAUCE...
So what has any other groups done to try and survive the wave of 9, or has anyone ran into it?



Hello !

We did find a W-Hole to dangerous unknown Space yesterday and went in with a Archon and a Thanatos. In that one we warped to one of those Sleeper Garrisons Troxel wrote about.

Because we did check it out with a Rapier first that got OWNED something happened to the spawn, as we already had the 2nd (and maybe 3rd) respawn in the site when the carriers arrived (at least we got that impression - it was just cruisers and frigs when the rapier went in and then the BS showed up - about 12 of em ...).

Long story short the carriers were tanking really hard, fighters popping left and right and after the Thanatos ran out of Cap (Nos/Neut + Remote Reps + Local Reps) it was going down into 70% structure when we managed to get another member with another Thanatos in (with 4 Remote Armor Rep & Meds filled with Cap Boosters and a SB2). The Wormhole collapsed after the third carrier so we knew we were along for the ride to the end.

But with that 3rd Carrier we were able to tank them. It took us about 2-3 hours to clean out the site, the following respawns were a joke compared to the start and were easily disposed.

Observations:
- omgwtfbbqDAMAGE !
- Fighters can be remote repped, but if they want to alpha it they just alpha it ...
- Drones usually instapop when targettet
- Our 3 Carriers each lost all their Fighters (about 50 total) and about 30-40 T2 Drones (Sentry/Heavy mostly - small and med were rarely targetted).
- Frigates are not stupid - tried Ogres on them, when they got in range they fired their MWD and laughed at those slow ****ers. Valkyries & Warriors worked nicely tho
- Cruisers went down equally slow with Hammerheads/Valks/Ogre or Garde
- those BS take a boatload of punishment
- i saw some Frigates get RR - but Cruisers and BS did not rep (maybe thats in Deadly unknown :) )
- one BS decided to fly away from us but stopped at about 450km - it just sat there with 0m/s. One of the Carrier Pilots jumped in a Ceptor and got us a warpin for the other carriers. It did not do anything imho - didnīt bother with the ceptor and didnīt bother with the Carriers after they were in range. It just sat there with 0m/s.

It was a very interestening experience, and quite a different one from the normal unknown Space that i visited so far (That was imho doable in a small/med size Gang). The dangerous unknown from yesterday is either for Capital Operations or for a medium to big gang (30-50 ppl ?) in my opinnion.

All around it was good fun - but only because it was the Testserver. The Losses in Fighters / Drones were very harsh and unaceptable. I donīt think this would be paid for by the lootz we got (which was plentiful and small i might add). On the other hand maybe we are doing it wrong ;)

One funny quote for you from the Engagement:
Pilot 1: I`m going to close in on that Wreck with my 10m/s (lots o webs) to check out what they drop.
*about 10 minutes pass*
Pilot 1: OMG ! Those sleepers drop T2 loot !!! 10mn T2 MWD, T2 DCU, T2 Artillery, T2 Sensor booster etc !!!!
Pilot 2+3: WTF ? Are you sure ?
Pilot 3 looks at the Wreck
Pilot 3: Dude - youīre looting the Rapier wreck that we lost ...

LOL ! :D

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.03.07 18:53:00 - [136]
 

How far those things can fire?

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.07 20:27:00 - [137]
 

It's been clear for awhile that soloing select spawns in "unknown space" is going to be possible in the right ship. But it hasn't been clear to me just how basic you can get.

My parameters: I can't really afford to risk T2 ships at current prices. I've got a lot of missile skills. I can afford to set up a small POS for resupply and reconfiguration and loot/ammo storage. And I have the patience to deal with the tricky logistics. So, the experimental question I've got is, is there anything I can kill in a caracal?

Answer: Yes.

I took a basic Caracal, fit it with T2 launchers, one large shield extender, and a meta-4 medium shield booster. Jumped into a handy 'unknown space" wormhole and used my onboard scanner to check out the local anomalies. Settled on a "Perimeter Camp" as the easiest looking -- it had six frigs and two sentry guns.

Warped in at 100. Ouch, those sentries hit hard. Popped one frig (five volleys with Caldari Navy heavy missiles) and got out with low shields.

Back in at 100 from another direction. Popped another frig, but suffered an armor ding this time.

Back in from first direction again. Frigs are WAAY over there and out of range, but coming fast. Locked a sentry, beat on its considerable armor for a few volleys, then shifted back to now-in-range frigs. This time I popped two before warping out, but about five or six more plus a cruiser spawned when I popped the second one.

Back. Popped one more frig, got out with lots of shield, probably could have got two.

And so forth. I'm still working it, and it's clearly a half-day project. Without a POS in system to help me repair, re-arm, or get in a new ship when I make the inevitable mistake or it's time to salvage, it wouldn't be worthwhile. It may not be anyway, depending on T3 loot values. But, it clearly IS possible even in a very cheap ship.

I thought that would be heartening to folks who were concerned by some of the horror stories.

(BTW, so far none of these frigs have tried to web or scram me. If they did, I'd be in trouble.)


Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.07 23:26:00 - [138]
 

Ultimately -- after about a dozen to eighteen warpouts -- I was able to complete my Perimeter camp in my Caracal, without leaving the wormhole system or needing any kind of re-supply.

I did run out of Caldari Navy heavy missiles early; regular Scourges seemed to work almost as well.

There was a third wave after I popped the cruiser from wave II. Three cruisers and a couple more frigs. They went down easily without sentry gun support.

Total loot and salvage was about 120 cubic meters, breaking down as follows:

22x Reinforced Metal Scraps (refined to 51k trit)

28x Neural Network Salvagers (50k ISK apiece to NPC buy orders on SISI)
8x Sleeper Data Library (200k ISK ea to NPC buy orders)

55x Electromechanical Hull Sheeting (ancient salvage)
2x Emergent Combat Analzyer (ancient salvage)*
1x Heuristic Selfassemblers (ancient salvage)*
27x Modified Fluid Router (ancient salvage)
10x Neurovisual Input Matrix (ancient salvage)
6x Powdered C-540 (ancient salvage)
2x Resonance Calibration Matrix (ancient salvage)*

The three ancient salvage items marked with asterisks have the color of icon we currently associate with the unbroken salvage for making Tech II rigs.

My conclusion from all of this is that solo trips into the wormhole by individuals or small gangs in cheap ships will not be completely pointless -- there will be things you can kill. Whether it makes economic sense to do so, of course, is impossible to predict. But I've heard a lot of worrying from younger and less-wealthy players that this content will be totally inaccessible without battlecruiser tanks or T2 resists; so I did this test to establish (to my own satisfaction) that it's not.

Admittedly I was using T2 launchers and high missile skills. But what I did solo could as easily have been done by three much younger character in three pure T1 cruisers -- a caracal and two remote-repping Ospreys and a lot of teamwork. Easy? No. Accessible at low skill points and limited ISK? Very much so.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.08 08:09:00 - [139]
 

Im noticing the sentries are the ones causing the majority of any damage in any given site, assuming you're not facing BS. They'll put down RR BS if you get webbed and they have enough time.

I'm still trying to work out how much tank is really going to be required by your average ship. Will proberbly take well into tranq to get a clear picture.

Best way to get out of tackle if you're on your own is to drop drones, if theres no RR on the field they'll switch targets once they start doing damage. Including scrams and webs.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.08 15:48:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Best way to get out of tackle if you're on your own is to drop drones, if theres no RR on the field they'll switch targets once they start doing damage. Including scrams and webs.
That's clever, but it also gives me an idea. I wonder if there's finally a reason to use ECM Burst modules?

Zylawy
Posted - 2009.03.08 17:58:00 - [141]
 

Quote:
The low end w-space system should be solo able with a battle cruiser that you have decent skills and modules for.


So there is still hope for solo players to go and make isk in WH space? And based on the mass of the WH will determin how hard the sites are?

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2009.03.08 19:10:00 - [142]
 

what Marlenus said above in his description of solo fighting session is also confirmed by my experience.
Although I was in better position - i've had Proteus, although horribly fitted, with almost no onboard weapon (3x 425mm AC barely enough to bring down lightest cruiser) and hoddible slot layout, gimped furter by 3 utility modules in high, web+AB (AB essential if you rely on web-ranged weapon), but having it's insane KI resists and paying attention on what's happened on grid... wasnt' impossible.

Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Best way to get out of tackle if you're on your own is to drop drones, if theres no RR on the field they'll switch targets once they start doing damage. Including scrams and webs.
That's clever, but it also gives me an idea. I wonder if there's finally a reason to use ECM Burst modules?


Could be, taking in count webifiers changes...

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.08 19:27:00 - [143]
 

Has anyone checked what damage they do ?
Or do they adept ?

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.08 20:00:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Zylawy
So there is still hope for solo players to go and make isk in WH space?
Solo players can clearly go in and kill stuff that will have an ISK value.

Whether the ISK made is "enough" to justify the effort, time, and extreme level of risk is going to depend entirely on prices of and demand for T3 ships. Given that they are being released with only three of five subsystem sets, I'd say that's literally impossible to predict at this time.

The Economist
Logically Consistent
Posted - 2009.03.09 08:27:00 - [145]
 

Was probing around in dangerous w-space, came across a mag site. I then found an abandoned domi with t1 sentries t1 hardeners but an otherwise ok fit so though what the hell. Started with about 4 cruisers and 4 frigs on me, dmg was manageable with one rep. Killing them however took some time since they kept switching to my sentries, forcing me to scoop, re-launch, remote rep, scoop, re-launch etc. However, after a little while the cruisers died, at which point more frigs and cruisers spawned. Max I had on me was about 6 cruiser and 6 frigs, again perfectly tankable with 1 rep (and the odd boost from a second one once in a while). Plinked them bit by bit and was feeling happy.....then the next wave spawned with 2 sleepless something bs. Basically I got melted, though not badly, I suspect another domi with remote reps and cap transfers and I would've been fine.

God knows what the next wave would have brought, but overall the dmg wasn't too extreme and drone use is possible, you just have to watch them like a hawk and have a remote rep fitted.

Derwent
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.03.12 08:20:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: King Hopy
Originally by: General Xenophon
Great write up. Sounds TRULY epic and non of that WoW Raid non-sense. THIS is epic, but may need to tone down the epicness because man, that difficulty sounds insane.

Maybe having sub-light (or other name) wormholes in empire and elsewhere where the npcs aren't quite so epic but also don't give as great loot. I mean, t3 is t3, but more t3 is still more isk than just a small portion. I'm sure even BC / Cruiser / frig npcs from this expansion would be challenging enough.

Also, do these npcs have bounties or are they just like drone npcs? Do they drop loot?


It's doable with a smallish gang. The people saying it's too hard just fail at setting up.


Says the guy that got popped 3 times last night Laughing

Naomi Wynn
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2009.03.13 18:10:00 - [147]
 

In highsec WSs (basic?), the perimeter hangars are soloable by a dual repping ABing pulse abby; haven't tried the perimeter checkpoints yet tho.

I got a decent amount of salvage and loot -- enough to make my time spent worthwhile. Just be prepared to run away or lose your ship if you underestimate the sleeper BS's damage, or if you get jumped by someone looking to pop a WS solo'er :P.


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