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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:56:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: MotherMoon
this is my biggest fear...

I want my logtiiscs cruiser to be useful. not that it wouldn't be useful, but it will be more useful is super caps can't get in.

and if they can get in, make it rare?


Read what I said, then stop worrying.


lol

nvm :)

mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
Posted - 2009.02.20 03:05:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: mamolian on 20/02/2009 03:05:53
30 players ratting.. and the feedback the you come back with.. "all gank no tank".. ****ing ******s.. seriously. Surprised I guess the upside is the vast majority of you will never see wormhole space with any regularity, nor will you be in a position to take advantage of it. I'll also take great pleasure in blowing up your fancy t3 ships should you be able to fit the bill Wink

This new Sleeper AI seems like a gigantic bore to me personally.. the thoughts of requiring 5 - 10 folks to go ratting seems rather pathetic. All those hands in the pie.. all those shares of the cake.. If you make it require too many accounts to farm the bottom of the rung resources it fast becomes a complete waste of time in my opinion. CCP has a rather amusing idea sometimes about the level of effort to reward.

Viktor Del'Grande
Gallente Forschung und Entwicklungscorp
Posted - 2009.02.20 07:41:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Aeo IV
Any idea what sort of sensors the Sleepers use?


At the first time i entered the WH i used a falcon. It was fit for pure jamming.

1 Cloak
1 Scanner
1 Salvager

1 10mn AB
2 Multispec T2
1 Per every Race Jammer T2

3 Signal Distortion Amp II

2 jamming stregth Rigs

At the first 4 BSes i put all my jammers into sction and jammed them. At the reinforcements were like 8 or 9 cruiser/frigs and i could not jam them all and they blown me fast away. I dont have an idea which jammer worked best, but i did not have a "mis jam".


Kaivos
Pyydys
Posted - 2009.02.20 08:12:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande
First of all .. Thanks to Oneiromancer Very Happy

What i noticed:

  1. The sleeper are really anoyed by ECM. As the respawn appeared and i did not manage to jam all ships, the falcon got primaried. and popped really fast.

  2. They are switching target really fast .. if you anoy them too much from sniping, dishing out too much DPS they fly away. This was noticed by other players which were participating too.

  3. The sleepers should introduce people to PvP like fighting: But their EW is not comparable to normal players. Their warp disruptor range is like 30-35km. Normal T2 disruptor with overload is 28km. If young players should lern from that how PvP works, the ranges from their EW should be the same as normal players use. The sleepers should be affected by all game mechanic rules which are applied to normal players. They should be neutable, webable, scrambleable, dampable, tracking disruptable. They should be affected by these effects like a player, which is targeted by such effects. No torpedos which goes 90km from the NPC and max range from a player torpedo is like 30-35km. No such differences. Everything should be the same. Except the AI Wink

  4. Their damage is not compareable to a ganksetup megathron. It is much much higher. The BSes dish out damage after resist maybe 1.5k until 3k. A 1600mm RT plate is only a buffer for 1-2 hard hits.

  5. Frigates are are haaard ass to beat. They have high resitances, low signatures and move really fast. You need a web and paint to hit them.

  6. Without logistics you stand no chance. You need armor transfer, shieldtransfer and lot of such stuff. You need people which jam the sleepers, to reduce the DPS. You are lucky if the sleepers primary an other ship, not yours. I stayed always aligned with the cursor abouve the warp out button.

  7. The loot from the sleeper is way to big. One item 10 m and one BS drops like 5-8 items. This volume should be reduled. Maybe like normal salvage or like datacores. I'm thinking of "Ancient Coordinates database" and such stuff.

  8. It was fun. It was like "oldstyle fleetfights with much of BSes and support". Before the introduction of titans and before the EC-P8R incident (April 2006). Before the great blobbing begun.



Again: Thanks for the fun Oneiromancer Very Happy


I really like the 3 part of his ideas. It would be really good way to learn pvp if the NPCs would be affected by ewar the same way players are.

Viktor Del'Grande
Gallente Forschung und Entwicklungscorp
Posted - 2009.02.20 08:30:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Kaivos


I really like the 3 part of his ideas. It would be really good way to learn pvp if the NPCs would be affected by ewar the same way players are.


That the sleepers should introduce players to PVP like fighting was said by CCP Oneiromancer in our test in WH space. I think i frapsed the complete action and all chatlogs ;)


Isin Dule
Posted - 2009.02.20 08:40:00 - [36]
 

At the end of the session, after Oneiromancer left the show, I encountered a small sleeper group of 1 frig, 2 cruisers and 2 bs. It has been impossible for a pair of ratting-fitted, well-tanked Ravens to hold tank for more than 2 minutes and we didn't even come close to finishing of at least one of our opponents (both Ravens with cruise launchers). So I had the impression that those bastards are still a little overpowered.

However they showed a weekness in target selection: At first they all directed their firepower towards a single Raven. Once the first Raven had been out of cap (no more boosting), shields down and at about 50% armor, the sleepers switched everything to the second Raven, even releasing the first one from scrams so that it could warp out with paperthin defenses left (of course the second Raven then died within a minute). The sleepers should definitely have finished off the first one before switching to the second. I also had the impression, that they did put all their scrams only on one target at a time - no point in doing so. In PvP, once you own the field, you devide tackles among at least primary, secondary and tertiary targets.

Its certainly tricky to implement, but the sleepers should have a way of "knowing" when an opponent is down to his knees with destruction imminent. Otherwise tactics will be to just deagress once your about to go down and have someone else in the gang wave their hands by (remote-)repping, firing, e-waring etc. in order to draw fire and e-war on someone else.

Kiotsu Adler
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:00:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Isin Dule
At the end of the session, after Oneiromancer left the show, I encountered a small sleeper group of 1 frig, 2 cruisers and 2 bs. It has been impossible for a pair of ratting-fitted, well-tanked Ravens to hold tank for more than 2 minutes and we didn't even come close to finishing of at least one of our opponents (both Ravens with cruise launchers). So I had the impression that those bastards are still a little overpowered.


They aren't, cause you would lose that encounter against decent pvpers (2 Ravens vs. 2 player BS, 2 HACs and an inty, you would die pretty much in a caouple of min probably).

Sounds good to me.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.02.21 17:36:00 - [38]
 

Tested (what I think is) an anomaly.

Misc uncoordinated group:
5 various HACs (ishtar, deimos, etc.)
1 gang boosting passive shield tanked myrmi
1 strategic cruiser
1 logistic

First wave was fine, 8 frigs + 8 cruisers, give or take. Myrmi got primaried initially but survived without problem, the sleepers then switched targets. one HAC warped out and back in after taking too much damage. Others were cool.

Second wave was 5 frigs and 3 BS. We dispatched the frigs, unfortunately the last one we killed appeared to be the trigger for the 3rd wave, leaving us with 3 BS to fight in addition to the other ships that spawned (12ish cruisers + 3 BS).

The combined power of them all was too much and we went down like flies. Myrmi got primaried, went down despite being able to tank 1600+ DPS.

Some of the frigs appear to be moving away from the main group sometimes, leading to some members being lead away (makes the logistics work harder).

The drones and logistic ship were surprisingly mostly left alone. Warrior IIs never got primaried, valkyries did.

Seeing how this was un uncoordinated group with no prior knowledge of sleepers, I think we did ok, this will certainly prove a challenge, but not unfeasable by any measure.

The loot is definately big, frigs drop 80m each. Didn't manage to salvage much, and what was salvaved was scraps :p

Dave10
Celtic Anarchy
Posted - 2009.02.21 18:09:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Dave10 on 21/02/2009 18:14:14
CCP oneiromancer took a group of 10 of us into a wormhole system, putting us into what was called a relatively hard encounter - which consisted of 3 waves leading upto a final one of 3 BSs and 9 cruisers. We mostly had BSs and logistics and were able to easily beat this encounter, mainly because we had double the intended gang size.

Here is a video showing me being primaried: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0902/sleepers.mkv
As you can see, no instajib, no neuts etc.

Later on a group of 5 of us tried the same encounter with 2 BSs, 2 armor logistics and a shield tanked myrm.

Heres a video of what happened on the final spawn: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0902/sleepers2.mkv
As you can see, one of the logistics crashed. This meant the sleepers concentrated on the remaining logistics after spreading fire around a bit.

These encounters seem perfectly balanced for a 5man group with logistics support:

Targeting - The sleepers spread fire around a lot, often focusing on one person. As can be seen in the second video, they logically target and will go for the weakest target - the logistics couldn't be repped enough by us, but we would be repped enough by the logistics if we were primaried. So the sleepers went for it at the end. This shows the targetting for the sleepers is pretty good at the moment, although strangely they never went for the weakest target overall (the sheild tanked myrm) until the end.

Drones - The drone targetting at the moment seems pretty good with these sleepers. I only lost 1 ogre through not paying attention, when they were targetted I had no trouble reacting to it and pulling them in. RR drones were not targetted at all, and this is exactly how it should stay - they dont get nuked in PvP so they shouldn't here.

DPS - The DPS required to take them down does seem a bit off, i.e. they have no tank at all it would seem. They should have some sort of minimal tank, but no more than a few hundred DPS if that - the challenge of having to spider tank and outdo a large tank could be too great.
The DPS of the sleepers themselves seemed about right for a 5man gang - nothing that was setup properly was instagibbed, and even without a sensor booster I was able to lock people up and RR them and keep them alive.

Overall I was impressed with the balancing gone into the ~5man encounter, it was a challenge that punished us for something going wrong (Though logistics crashing wasn't our fault). After seeing that spider tanking is really the way to go on these spawns, I'd say that 10 people should really be the limit for encounter sizes for it to be fun and a challenge at the same time.

Mrs Rabbit
Hidden Rabbit Industries
Posted - 2009.02.21 18:45:00 - [40]
 

We have been testing some wormholes and according to CCP Oneiromancer we were in the hardest one (Class 6 site). With 2 oneiros, 2 battleships and a nyx and we've been able to do it without any kind of problems.

The first spawn was just a bunch of cruisers/bcs and some frigs, we did it fast, was really easy. The biggest problem we found was the fast response time that sleepers had to the drones attacking them, that resulted in the loss of LOTS of drones (About 30), we solved it smartbombing the field with the nyx.

The second spawn was pretty much like the first one but with 3 battleships, again we did it without any kind of problems. In this stage sleeper response seemed to be higher and we lost less drones and they changed their primary less times however frigs tanked much more, and with 3 smartbombs we were unable to kill them, then we swaped to small drones but the dps that frigs were tanking was insane (once they were at 25% shield they boosted twice in a row and got back to 100%)

The final spawn was like the second but without any frig, they ignored all drones but the dps was way higher and we almost lost one of our bs, they also tanked a bit more (nothing crazy), but once you cleared some dps everything went fine.


Was really cool to be honest, thanks for letting me in oneiromancer.

Baumi
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.02.21 18:47:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Baumi on 21/02/2009 18:50:08
Edited by: Baumi on 21/02/2009 18:49:57
Oneiromancer took a small gang to WH space, 1x Apoc 1x Abaddon 2x Oneiros (one of them was me).

First we did a medium hard plex, which wasn't a problem at all, once the apoc got to 50% armor but that was it.

Then a Nyx ( o7 Mrs Rabbit) joined us (he had no remote reps o0), and we were moved to the hardest encounter (at least Oneiromancer said it was the hardest ;-) )
That one was a problem, we had some problems to keep the Apoc alive, he was down to 10% Armor at one point.
In addition, we had the already mentioned problems with the frigates Sad, but after focusing fire we managed to kill them too. (We killed everything else first Rolling Eyes so no RR).

I saw some nossing going on, but somehow my cap was stable anyways, while our BS had a lot of cap problems but that might be caused by their setups.


Anyways, even without the MS that encounter should be doable be 5 people (2 Logistics + 3 CS or 5 RR-BS should be easy going).

What i really don't like is the drone aggro, there is no way to use them until most of the sleepers are dead: they will just get alphaed.
Even as i was only using 4 Drones + repping each of them with Large RRs they got popped Neutral
In my opinion you should really look at that again, there is a Race called Gallente in this game which likes to use Drones Wink

Steve Hunter
Posted - 2009.02.21 18:58:00 - [42]
 

went into an easy-medium plex. had 4 marauders, 3 BS, 1 log and me+drake. aside from inital frig aggro my drake got left alone. i used armor bots t support fleet rep, and they never had any aggro. our logistics got elft aloe too. the sleepers simply cycled through the BS's. we had 8frigs+3 cruisers t start, then a cruiser bs mix (didnt count em), last wave was 3bs and a couple cruisers. i think kin/therm are the principle damages for armor. structure is anything goes. didnt get much of an idea of incoming dps, but i cud (supposedly) handle 200dps just on passive recharge.

certainly frigs were hard as nails, 100dmg per volley of missles. but that said my skills arent brilliant. cruiser/bs went down like i expected given that i knew they were going to be tough.

would be interesting to know which is worse sleeper or jovian?

Legionos McGuiros
Caldari
Legio Prima Victrix
Imperius Legio Victrix
Posted - 2009.02.21 19:19:00 - [43]
 

Umm im sorry but since when did the Sleepers have to conform to your idea of 'how battles should work'? Ofcourse there going to split up if your in a close range fighting ship, ofcourse they are going to shoot your drones down.
Not to mention the Sleepers are ment to be one of the oldest races in New Eden so its HIGHLY unlikely that there webification/scrambling technology will be on parr with our 'young' races but infact will be more powerful so quit whining that they shouldnt have a larger range than us because thats the point!
Rolling Eyes

Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
Posted - 2009.02.21 19:26:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Legionos McGuiros
Umm im sorry but since when did the Sleepers have to conform to your idea of 'how battles should work'? Ofcourse there going to split up if your in a close range fighting ship, ofcourse they are going to shoot your drones down.
Not to mention the Sleepers are ment to be one of the oldest races in New Eden so its HIGHLY unlikely that there webification/scrambling technology will be on parr with our 'young' races but infact will be more powerful so quit whining that they shouldnt have a larger range than us because thats the point!
Rolling Eyes


Amen to that. Also, stop whining about pvp so and so, this is pve. If you can't handle it/don't like it, just go back to your gate camps and stfu.

vipeer
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.02.21 19:37:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: vipeer on 21/02/2009 19:44:26
Edited by: vipeer on 21/02/2009 19:41:29
Edited by: vipeer on 21/02/2009 19:39:02
I was just on a trip through two wormholes. First one was easy business. No sweat tanking the spawns.

2nd on was, as already mentioned above the hardest encounter for now. Oneiromancer said the hacking ones will be even harder.

First wave of enemies were cruisers and frigates. We dispatched them with little trouble.

2nd wave was a lot tougher. At first they did not want to agress so our Abaddon shot them. They focused fire and gave me and Baumi in logistics a short run for our money. The frigs just didnt want to die. If we brought some smaller caliber guns maybe we could have done better against them.

3rd wave was dangerous. Probably because i was busy refitting my oneiros with a salvager and salvaging the field. They took down our apoc to half armor very quickly, they did the same with Baumi's Oneiros. While Baumi in an Oneiros was trying to hold the flood of damage to the Apocalypse i was cycling between him and the apoc to keep them from falling off a cliff. After we took down one of three battleships the damage dried up and we were able to tank them. But for a while we werent holding too well with both Oneiros and Apoc in low armor.

I looted everything and there is a screenie of everything the hard WH dropped for us.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0902/T3_salvage.JPG

Oneiromancer noted that the 2nd to 5th module which now take 10m3 each will be downsized to a more manageable size and no the last five modules are also Sleeper salvage.

I had absolutely no capacitor trouble, due to NOS and in the 2nd and 3rd wave my ship sustained very little damage. As said the Apocalypse took the brunt of the punishment and we were already joking about how much dmg will the lossmail show ;)

Keeping up transversal is a wise idea in a logistics ship, as i think Baumi witnessed first hand as he started moving his armor stopped dropping dramatically. This are some hits i sustained. Mostly to shields. I used T2 EANM with perfect skills and T2 explosive armor hardener

Sleepless Sentinel strikes you perfectly, wrecking for 936.5 damage.
Phantasmata Missile belonging to Sleepless Sentinel hits you, doing 232.6 damage.
Sleepless Sentinel barely scratches you, causing 166.9 damage.
Praedormitan Missile belonging to Awakened Sentinel hits you, doing 104.0 damage.
Oneiric Missile belonging to Emergent Sentinel hits you, doing 29.6 damage.
Praedormitan Missile belonging to Awakened Sentinel hits you, doing 104.0 damage.

Most of the hits I sustained to armor were for 10, 12, 30 and 70 HP.

All in all: These wormholes can be done with a combination of tanked (hardeners) ships and logistics. We had a Nyx that apparently put the fear of God into the Sleepers but im confident that with 2-3 RR Battleships and at least two logistics ships (if one gets primaried the 2nd can rep it) the dungeons are doable. All ships however need to be either armor or shield tanked.

In my opinion the two logistics ships we had were the key to a success. I was using 3* best named large remote reppers that could run 24/7 and a 1600mm plate. Rest of the setup is more or less self-evident.

P.s. Dont know if this is a bug or a feature but the WH space Oneiro took us has like 20-30 locations that are scannable with onboard scanner.

Rilcon
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2009.02.21 20:06:00 - [46]
 

Just tried 2 different encounters in a "Class 5" system.

First one the gang was a random mismatch of 8 ships we all got jumbled into. First and second wave were just a handful of ships that didn't pose too much of an issue (though we lost a BS in the second wave due to its complete lack of tank). Third wave, some 6 cruisers, 4 BSs and good deal of frigs spawned right on top of us. My basilisk was scrammed instantly and went down in a couple of seconds, with everything else following me shortly after.

Second encounter we had a Vulture, Kronos, Golem, Raven (I think), ECM Scorpion, 2x Oneiros and my Guardian. My own ship was fit with 4 large reps, one large and one med large e-transfer and enough buffer tank to not get one shot.

First two waves were pretty similar, 3BSs few cruisers and frigs. Scorpion would jam something and most rats would focus on him, then after the three logistics would keep its paper thin armour alive long enough, rats would focus on one of the logistics for a while, then another, then spread between them. Every once in a while they'd all switch to one of the other sip types in gang and repeat the process. For most of the fight I always had a cruiser or two on me, and guessing the same for the two Oneiros. Third spawn in that site was similar to the one on the first encounter, but at 100km range from us. Scorpion got initial aggro, and then it spread out after we managed to keep it alive.

I carried light drones, and in general could recall before they died, but eventually lost them all in one hit volleys. Nos/neut wasn't noticeable for me, at least, and no one in gang mentioned having serious cap issues. Rats aggro anything that warps into them. No one noticed any ECM or sensor dampening going on, either. The second encounter (the one we survived) took our gang roughly 40 minutes to complete. Can't comment on the loot or salvage. Overall was a fun experience, and a gang like ours couldn't really just AFK the whole thing (well, at least the logistics had to be awake).

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2009.02.21 20:19:00 - [47]
 

Certainly an interesting experience.

Where to start... well, as above post from Rilcon- I was the scorpion mentioned. Waves would spawn typically around 100km from us, I'd lock all the BSes immediately and slap jams on. This guaranteed more or less the whole wave locking me very quickly. This in turn lead to rapid removal of my shield; my armour was maintained by a total of 7 large reps throughout the engagement. They'd usually shift target eventually but focussed on me quite a while.

Rest of the engagement I'd usually select close targets and jam them; dropping one jammer on each rat was sufficient to disrupt their locks every 1-3 cycles of the jammer, which was enough to break up their DPS and provoke target changes. This worked pretty well as a strategy.

Drones- I was using t2 lights, and they were being outrun/tanked by the frigs a bunch of the time. Missile selection was tricky; I settled on HAMs the second time round to assist with frigkilling but the speed of the frigs limited the damage, and I suspect fitting cruise or heavy launchers would have been a smarter move. Even then, the BSes were moving with considerable speed. Webs certainly a requirement in future.

Loot was varied, as was salvaged. Some interesting clues hidden within the actual items dropped.

Frigs weren't too much of an issue- they were plentiful but aggregate drone damage from 20ish drones was getting through them OK, along with the odd spot of extra damage from people set up to kill them. TPs/webs really a must on those; web drones would probably be a sound idea.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.02.21 20:36:00 - [48]
 

Has any one tested these sites with a slightly weaker gang? Something of the order of 3 HACs and 2 BS (no logistics, no Marauders)? Im just a bit concerned that the solution to these sleeper spawns is 'bring big gangs'...which is fine if that's the design aim - but it does mean that 'big gangs' will be the norm across W-Space.

C.



Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.21 20:49:00 - [49]
 

Some feedback from this mornings fleets into w-space:

We had a mixed gang of a few Marauders, some logistics and a few passive Drakes. I had a max tanked passive Drake put together.

I was primaried a few times by 2-3 BS and had to warp out immediately or I would have died in 3-4 volleys. The rats killed our logistics ship straight away and then went after everyone else.

Drones are basically useless, but I'm sure the devs are well aware of that issue and are fixing it.

Right now the NPCs can do over 1k DPS at ranges of 100km+, while neuting etc. at that range. I think that they need to be redesigned so that they are more comparable to what player ships are capable of: maybe 300-400 DPS at 100km, more when closer, and limiting the neut range to inside 25km. Same goes for warp scrambling of frigs.

I also think that it's ridiculous for people to be testing the NPC balance with caps and supercaps. It's r3tarded. The NPC balance needs to be tested with smallish gangs of BS and BCs, with the occasional logistics ship thrown in the mix.

Right now fighting the sleeper NPCs is like running a 10/10 complex, only worse, as they switch off aggro almost instantly and go for your support ships first. (lol)

I'm all for a new and unique NPC experience, and for more difficult rats, but right now they're way off with respect to their range and DPS and their overall difficulty.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.02.21 20:56:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus


I also think that it's ridiculous for people to be testing the NPC balance with caps and supercaps. It's r3tarded. The NPC balance needs to be tested with smallish gangs of BS and BCs, with the occasional logistics ship thrown in the mix.

I'm all for a new and unique NPC experience, and for more difficult rats, but right now they're way off with respect to their range and DPS and their overall difficulty.


Excellent points. From what I understand whilst it wont be impossible to get a cap into W-Space, it certainly won't be the norm. The ranges being quoted are also way of kilter in comparison to what a Player gang would typically be fielding - and if the idea is to get people accustomed to PVP through PVE combat it really needs to mirror this if at all possible.

There's a big risk that W-Space coming out as simply beyond the means of an 'ordinary corp' which would be a great shame as its such a promising feature.

I'd also be interested to know to what degree the gangs attacking the sleepers were fitted to exploit the resources after the battle (salvagers, hacking mods etc). If they weren't fitted with this equipment then the implications are the T3 prices will be extreme.

C.



Zerb Arus
WormSpaceWormS
Posted - 2009.02.21 21:28:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Zerb Arus on 21/02/2009 22:07:22
Edited by: Zerb Arus on 21/02/2009 21:44:03
I was one of the Oneiroses in the gang with Rilcon and Ix Forres. it was a calss 5 encounter (6=max). with my AB (>700m/s) sleeper BS didnt even hit me until i got double-webbed, but then the other logistics kept my alife quite easily.
(A 800mm plate saved my the day when i got a 4k hit due to low traversal speed on emergancy warpout with the first gang. so when they hit ... they hit HARD)
Ix Forres's scorp reduced the incoming dps drastically so he was the favourite primary of the sleepers, and when the sleepers noticed they had no chance, one of the logostics was the next primary.
Sometimes I got only primaried by the frigs, and if they catched me, i got stage-aggro.

EW: i hat an eccm II and a SB II-range and never lost lock (either it was enough or they didnt even try it)
A tackler is a must ... sometimes they run away (270km+) and prevent you from triggering the next - more valueble - spawn.

summary:
You have to keep moving (out-tracking), logistic pilots need good reflexes, jamming helps alot, without tackler you wont reach the last wave sometimes (sleeper-cowards), you need a buffer to prevent one-volley-deaths, fit a remote hull repairer for breaks, use web and painter to kill frigs faster (they are tough).

PS sorry for my english
/edit: frogot one important thing: it was Challenge & FUN

vipeer
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.02.21 22:30:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Cailais


I'd also be interested to know to what degree the gangs attacking the sleepers were fitted to exploit the resources after the battle (salvagers, hacking mods etc). If they weren't fitted with this equipment then the implications are the T3 prices will be extreme.




See my post above. There i linked a pic of what we looted from lvl 6 spawn.

All you need is one salvager to salvage what they leave behind. Say youre in a Guardian or an Oneiros, three large remote reps seemed to be enough. 4th slot can go for the salvager.

Atm it looks like a 5 man team who know what they are doing and have skills nearly maxed is enough. Personally i see a major increase in prices of logistics ships because they seem to be a very important part of the equasion. Tbh... Next time I swing by Jita i'll probably buy a dozen Oneiroses, Basilisks and Guardians

ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.02.21 22:36:00 - [53]
 

I for one would like to see carriers at least be able to enter. Your average ship just doesnt have enough room to be able to store ammo + loot. If we can only do a few spawns and run out of ammo, and get full on loot its going to be a real pita to get anything out of w-space.

Carriers would allow extra ships to be stowed (in case you lose someEmbarassed) + be able to store ammo, etc.

Turrican
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.21 23:09:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Dave10


Later on a group of 5 of us tried the same encounter with 2 BSs, 2 armor logistics and a shield tanked myrm.

Heres a video of what happened on the final spawn: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0902/sleepers2.mkv
As you can see, one of the logistics crashed. This meant the sleepers concentrated on the remaining logistics after spreading fire around a bit.



I'M ON TV!!! WOOOOOOOO!!! HI MUM!!!! Very Happy

(Thats a really nice capture, encode and file size by the way) Fraps? What settings?

But seriously, what Dave10 said. Up until the other logistics crashed out it felt really comfortable. With 2 logistics and 3 buffer tank Battleships I think this site would be nicely balanced.

* Loot is HUGE! I salvaged about 4-5 BS wrecks and I was full, so I couldnt even do one site!

* Some of the swapping targets is a bit random. I can understand swapping if tanks are holding, but swapping when a target is clearly going down doesn't make sense. Ditto on the shield Myrm, bit odd going untouched (was it drones only?)

* Drone aggro: Was much better, I still had to drag back my drones now and again, but I didnt lose one at all (until I lost the ship!)

* Range/Triggers: I have not guessed the spawn triggers yet, but most times the new spawn comes early and just sits there watching their friends die: Drone 1 - "Hey look Fred just blew up!" Drone 2 "Never mind, orders are do not fire until fired upon!". Then the gang has to travel to obtain aggro.

* I now think one capital will un-balance all the whole encounters and lead to farming. Sure its risk vs reward, but with no current chance of Sleeper caps spawning, its still one sided when player caps are present.

Was fun! Thank you! Very Happy

Adaera
Posted - 2009.02.22 00:06:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
Phantasmata Missile belonging to Sleepless Sentinel hits you, doing 232.6 damage.
Praedormitan Missile belonging to Awakened Sentinel hits you, doing 104.0 damage.


... I have no idea what those are but I want them :D
Wish I could get a show info on them >_< oh well... not long until it's out. And maybe I'll live long enough to see

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.02.22 01:03:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Nova Fox on 22/02/2009 01:06:07
Edited by: Nova Fox on 22/02/2009 01:05:00
well my group went in logstics heavy which was nice, and took on three fleets of these things.

We quickly where beginning to understand how dangerous these ships are, taking any large number of them alone is well not easy.

Other than that great group challenge, not as hard as actual pvp but not as easy as other existing pve.

We noticed sleepers that whre actually doing more than speed tanking us, these took alot more effort to kill than all the other ships, sadly they where the frigates we encountered, annoying little buggers indeed.

Let downs however where the following.

Drones that 'where' primaried retain hate after being pulled back in, that hate should be transfered to the pilot or drones overall, it almost appears they maintain lock as well almost primarying the drones soon as they are put out of the ship, the same drone they where ****ed off at before they nuke to death preventing any possible repairs to be made.

Drones wheren't docking right in the end lost 5 drones due to this error alone, this needs fixing if drone boats have any hope of being useful against sleeper ships.

We never saw any ewar notifications from any of the sleeper ships cept warp scramblers and I know they have webs, but they supposivly energy drain to but there was no NOS icon or the effect for it.

Also lock all of your drones seemed to been removed in this patch and scoop up drones also removed, my drones may not dock right but usually Scoop up worked when they cant dock. Lock all drones was a quick way to get remote reps on them (cntl click 'drones in space') please please please fix.

CCP Ytterbium

Posted - 2009.02.22 01:42:00 - [57]
 

Going to answer a few concerns here.

Regarding capitals, we may want to let them in for the hardest sites, this question is still debated at this moment, and as you guessed, it will be up on whatever they unbalance overall difficulty or not and if they just overshadow other ship class roles.

The Sleeper number themselves per encounter may also vary until we are satisfied, again, nothing is set in stone at that point.

Concerning the 10m3 loot, this should be fixed in the next singularity update.

It's nice to see players are adapting to the encounters and bringing creative gang setups to face them; thanks for the excellent feedback, keep it coming.

And remember, if you notice bugs, please defect them so we may crush them like the pathetic insects they are Twisted Evil.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.22 06:28:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Going to answer a few concerns here.

Regarding capitals, we may want to let them in for the hardest sites, this question is still debated at this moment, and as you guessed, it will be up on whatever they unbalance overall difficulty or not and if they just overshadow other ship class roles.

The Sleeper number themselves per encounter may also vary until we are satisfied, again, nothing is set in stone at that point.

Concerning the 10m3 loot, this should be fixed in the next singularity update.

It's nice to see players are adapting to the encounters and bringing creative gang setups to face them; thanks for the excellent feedback, keep it coming.

And remember, if you notice bugs, please defect them so we may crush them like the pathetic insects they are Twisted Evil.


With respect to the hardest sites:

How practical will it be to move a capital ship into w-space, particularly if you have to traverse multiple wormholes in order to get deep enough into w-space to encounter a 'level 6' complex?

I for one think that cap ships in w-space should be a radical exception, and if someone can manage to squeeze one in there then so be it, but it should be a huge risk on their part, and they should be able to reap the rewards as well.

But I still don't think that it should be something that is common place and with that idea in mind have the highest end NPCs balanced around the concept of fighting carriers or (heaven forbid) mother ships.

And to be clear: I fully understand that SISI isn't the finished state of the patch. My posts aren't 'omg, the sky is falling', just expressing some opinions about the current state of things. I trust that the largest issues will be ironed out before it goes to TQ. I'm hopeful anyway.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.02.22 10:07:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Going to answer a few concerns here.

Regarding capitals, we may want to let them in for the hardest sites, this question is still debated at this moment, and as you guessed, it will be up on whatever they unbalance overall difficulty or not and if they just overshadow other ship class roles.

The Sleeper number themselves per encounter may also vary until we are satisfied, again, nothing is set in stone at that point.

Concerning the 10m3 loot, this should be fixed in the next singularity update.

It's nice to see players are adapting to the encounters and bringing creative gang setups to face them; thanks for the excellent feedback, keep it coming.

And remember, if you notice bugs, please defect them so we may crush them like the pathetic insects they are Twisted Evil.


Have you considered weaker sleeper strains? e.g at anomaly site in W-Space are sleepers with AI, but with toned down damage outputs (and scaled down drops as well), whereas the 'ancients' can be found at cosmic signature sites within W-Space and these provide a significant challenge (and the vast majority of the 'good loots').

I'm just thinking how you could 'scale' the experience for players in terms of difficulty? W-Space is such an awesome concept I'd hate to see it become purely the domain of the 'uber group' especially if the NPC AI is, at least in part, designed to encourage players towards PVP.

Its probably worth noting also that your SISI players are typically well versed in EVE and in PVP, so you're testing the NPCs vs some pretty competent players - and yet even with minimal skill points W-Space looks like its quite accessible.

C.



swisher
Caldari
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
Posted - 2009.02.22 10:45:00 - [60]
 

Alright, this isn't from the spawned session you got, but Swisher is currently logged in his shiny new graphics pos in Unknown.
4 Bs held my nighthawk's passive tank at 57%, but they remote repped so they can't be soloed.

I warped to a larger spawn, with many battleships, cruisers, and frigates in both a rook and a manticore at 100, as soon as i decloak, and moving at 1000+m/s, they instant pop me.
btw: the frigs will warp scramble wrecks.

How ccp needs to change these rats:
1: give them as strict optimal range and tracking as players, if they have uber range, they should have bad tracking & lower dps.
2: give them 60% webs and have a stacking penalty. - 4 frigs should not bring me down to 17m/s
3: fix their target switching. it seems quirky at best as is. let them sense the EHP of their target, if its average over a few moments doesn't go down, they switch. if it is steadily going down, stay on it.
4: If it takes a pvp gang, give them pvp tactics, numbers, and let pvp tactics work against them. Rather than a whole spider rep setup, perhaps make logistics cruisers. As i stated give them logical tracking and it will be much easier.


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