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Darth Felin
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:31:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes! It is a worst thing in the game imho. Can you just remove them and add + 10 to all attributes please? It will be a great idea even without skill point compensations. And yes I have only one learning skill below 5 - it is advanced charisma (Presence as I remember).

Odetta Harpy
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:42:00 - [242]
 

Woo i can get rid of charisma, now if i could only ger rid of usless skills like trade, leadership and corp managment :(

yunger
Big Guns Inc.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:06:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?



Letís change the question how many new players do you think quit when they heard that they had to choose between

1, skipping the learning skills for a while and training at a much lower then maximum efficiency to be able to something in game the first month

2, do the learning skills in order to max out your first training months

Iím sorry to say that I have tried talking a few new members out o option 2 but it looks to be human reflex to do the most out of you skill training. To bad that after 1 month they are still flying frigates in level 1 missions wondering wtf this game is about.

Do not hesitate do give new players a better start then we vets had in order to give them some ability to catch up

Learning skills to level 4 advanced learning to level 3 or 4

Neutral skills like engineering to level 4

And give all the races the same skill set so the new players won't have to wonder what kind of skills are good, because there are a lot of skills that you basicly need for all professions/races.


After that sure give them some double sp time but make sure they start with the basic skills at a decent level so they can start actually doing something more then grinding level 1 missions the first month.


Nagasuriachi Samai
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:22:00 - [244]
 

First off: The new newbie stuff...

Although I haven't even thought about trying the test server out, I have to admit I think this is a good idea, and anyone who feels otherwise, obviously has NO IDEA anymore about what it's like to be a newbie in this game.

I restarted a couple of months ago after a 2-year break - (mostly without internet access at all ShockedSad) - so I can speak fairly well for a newbie, since I hardly remembered anything about the game before - (and the character creation had changed a lot since I last used it).

The current creation system is NOT a 'tutorial', really. Even the initial missions don't do a very good job of explaining all the basic game-mechanics very well, or the skills you started with. And since there isn't a manual, it needs one BADLY. If I didn't have a small idea of what I was doing, I would have been a bit lost, like I was the first time, when I trained a Gallente character and wound up using Caldari ships since they fit the skills I'd trained up better. (I trained shield skills instead of armour since I thought it should be better).

IMHO, starting with a smaller skill set - (less for the player to learn about initially) - and then learning a lot more through tutorial missions SHOULD work a LOT better.

Next:

Originally by: CCP Fear


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I've ALWAYS been split on these...

On the ONE hand, they are just a time sink, (but then, what's new?).

On the OTHER hand, though, they reward good planning and management. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS GAME IS ABOUT! (note that the 'good' in this case is entirely subjective, since what some people would consider good, others would not).

The biggest problem here, is that a lot of people don't know seem to know HOW to really manage their skills effectively in the short-to-medium term when they start the game, and by that I'm NOT talking solely about the newbies, but the established players too!

The problem, is that so many established players automatically take the long-term view of the learning skills, (i.e. they need to be trained up ASAP), but for a newbie it's very damaging. Fortunately for me, when I first played the game I automatically understood the skill system and therefore how to manage and plan my skills well for me and my character, regardless of what the other players tried to tell me...

The fact is, until your looking at training skills to level 4 and over, the basic skills at level 4, (and therefore the advanced ones), are simply unnecessary - they should simply be trained to level 3 along with all the other basic skills at the time. This gives the player a much better 'bang-for-his-buck', and train more skills in the shortest amount of time early on, which is GOOD!

My character is now over 2 months old, with 78 skills/2.6MIl SP and has only just finished learning his advanced learning skills to level 3, before I finish all the tertiary/misc skills to level 3, and then start on the round of level 4 advanced learning skills and secondary+ skills to level 4. (I've already trained nearly all of my 'primary' skills to level 4)

I have yet to train a single skill to level 5, because it's not worthwhile yet... I have one level 4 skill training atm, (Gallente Cruiser), since I have the money for a Megathron. (I'll only be doing level 3 missions in it, though, since I know my skills arn't quite up to scratch for level 4 missions yet).

As I said, it's all about MANAGEMENT. Thankfully, I understand this... (One person tried to convince me to train up drones V - (I'm a gallente soldier) - 1 WEEK into the game when I was in a Catalyst, and it's advice like THAT, that spoils this game for newbies... (Though, yes, I do see the point that if they fall for it then maybe it's not the game for them, but I doubt CCP will agree with that!))

True Ace
Gallente
Fat Bastards
MACHI MISCHIEF
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:25:00 - [245]
 

seems the npe is different for everyone. when i started i hadnt even read the forums. didnt talk to a soul in game. learning skills are not a must at the early start of the game. hell u guys seems to forget that it takes what a year for them to pay off.

with 800k sp i was in my first thorax in two weeks (messed up and bought a destroyer Embarassed). i had no outside help or anything. when i was getting pwned in missions i just read up on skills that would help me out then buy them. for isk i heard about salvaging and started to do that aswell.

really ccp is going in the right direction i dnt know why people want the game to be dumbed down by handing everything to the new players. their new tutorials are perfect and actually give new players a better start than us 800k sp players. wish i got that much isk in the beginning.

btw dnt remove learning skills or give them free advanced learning skills. them skills wasnt cheap for us and not needed til about your seconded month maybe.

Navtiqes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:31:00 - [246]
 

Edited by: Navtiqes on 19/02/2009 14:32:51
Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?
Hate might be too strong, but they're damned inconvient. The problem is that they're more pretty much mandatory. If you don't waste invest time in good learning skills, you're gimping yourself in the sense that you train everything twice as slow as everyone else.

Now having been here since 2005, I don't have the learning skill problem, but I know it's the major reason why newbs get turned off.

"Oh hai, welcome to this spacegame about spaceships and spacewars and stuff. You can like train skills and stuff, but before you can learn stuff you spend 2 months preparing to learn stuff faster."
It's senseless and not much of a carrot on a stick.

Much as I dislike giving newbs freebies, I think it'd be better if learning skills slowly increased while you were training other things. That way they'd award you for staying subscribed, while still letting you chase more exciting goals.

Just to throw an idea out there: Say you're unable to select skills in the Learning tab, but for every 10 skill points you train, a random skill point is placed in your learning skills. That'd give you a slow start, true, but you'd be getting Learning without waiting to play the game for 2 months.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:38:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 19/02/2009 14:45:39
Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?

No, I kinda like them, even back when I had to train them. It gave me the feeling that I was going for the long-term.

Also, I kinda disliked them. But still, the skills themselves aren't the problem. The _REAL_ problem are people like the GP who insist newbies max them out before they are allowed to start enjoying the game.

So; STOP THAT AND DON'T GO TELLING NEWBIES THEY NEED TO MAX OUT LEARNING SKILLS IMMEDIATELY.

It ruins the fun of the game.

Edit: Since there's so much confusion about how to best go about training the learning skills, perhaps you should include it in the NPE? Advocate a balanced approach where the character should consider training a couple of levels now and then, to avoid having others insist that everything needs to be trained asap.

permion
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:49:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Which do you think would be more fun to a player: learning skills slightly faster, having the skills to fly some tier 2 frigs. Not to mention the money to afford them.

Seriously learning skills almost perfectly emphasis that more SP is better, something you don't want to do in this game. After all there's plenty of that logic scaring people away even without them knowing learning skills exist/their effects.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:49:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes. Worst game mechanic in my eyes, right after Titans. They don't have any bonuses, they are a mandatory skillset you have to do to train efficiently. So you have to waste a month if you expect to play more than 6 months, where absolutely nothing happens at all.

Nagasuriachi Samai
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:53:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Navtiqes


"Oh hai, welcome to this spacegame about spaceships and spacewars and stuff. You can like train skills and stuff, but before you can learn stuff you spend 2 months preparing to learn stuff faster."




And THAT is what's wrong with this game!!!!!

NOT the skills, or the management etc. but the advice newbies get given!

The way to use the learning skills EFFECTIVELY is 'simple':

Step 1: learn as many skills as possible to level 2 while you play the game...

Now, if you can, learn the learning skills first, and STAGGER them in pairs, to go with the skills you learn afterwards. (int/mem, then perc, wil, cha), but at this stage it's not TERRIBLY important, and will only save you a few minutes...

Step 2: Leave the important skills training to level 3 overnight staggered in turn again, including the learning skills as early as possible - (though science 3 (for cybernetics), and survey 3 (for salvaging), pay off even faster than the learning skills!

Step 3: When all the main/primary skills (fitting/weapons/defensive etc.) are at level 3, THEN train up the basic learning skills to level 4 and get the advanced skills up to level 2 and 3 overnight again, (staggered in pairs as usual), and interlaced with the main skills to level 4, and secondary skills to level 3.


(And that is where my char is atm).


Step 4: train up the advanced learning skills to level 4, then the secondary and tertiary/misc skills to level 4 too.

Step 5: basic learning and primary skills to level 5, followed by the secondary and tertiary/misc.


So, are we getting a good idea now of how it SHOULD be done?

permion
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:57:00 - [251]
 

That's still like eating 5 year old canned over salted spinach between icecream.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:07:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 19/02/2009 15:11:28
Originally by: True Ace


btw dnt remove learning skills or give them free advanced learning skills. them skills wasnt cheap for us and not needed til about your seconded month maybe.


baby fly: I don't want to eat ****, mom.
mom fly: Eat it all, my son.
baby fly: But I don't like ****, mom.
mom fly: Eat it now and one day you'll be able to make your childs eat ****.
baby fly: (with a smile in his mouth) Allright, mom. (eats the ****)

When I started the game, I trained my learning skills as everybody else first. I trained the "must have" skills in between when I felt that i needed them to advance in the game (ie: to be able to do lvl2 missions when offered without being murdered) I understood what learnings are worth (months or years to deserve the training), But 4/3 is a must have for only months (the minim all people must train imo), and I felt I was loosing money and time not training them asap.
Thing is, learnings are a must if you're going to stay in the game. Not training them feels like loosing time, but training them feels like loosing time too, because you can not train the skills you are going to use. So it is a lose/lose situation. Lose at short term or lose at long term. People who loves the game like me, just carry on with it, but that don't make it less painful.

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:13:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes. Time sink that everyone does with no real benefit to learning the game.

Syberbolt8
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:17:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


TBH, learning skills never bothered me, I see all these people that keep saying they have to train the learning skills. IMO you don't have to train anything. I am most likely one of the few 30+ mil SP pilots in game that hasn't trained them max, and tbh it hasn't stopped me from having fun when I was training the ones I have. The thing is, don't train them from the get go, train fun stuff first, stuff you want and like to do so when you do start to train the learning skills, you have other things to do while you wait.
The worst thing any new player can do is take the advice of a old player who thinks the learning skills to max right out of the box is a good thing, in addition, its not like just because your training learning skills that you can't play the game, I don't see how its any more boring to train them then BS to lvl 5, or cruiser's to lvl 5 for that matter. Just IMO, but I think learning skills are fine as long as people stop making them out to be so important to train right off the bat.

P.S. I know not having max learning skills means I didn't get all the sp I could have since 06, but guess what, doesn't really bother me or stop me from playing the game I enjoy.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:21:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 19/02/2009 15:30:05

I want to communicate a few things:

1. I'm not a whiner I just used CAPS limegreen to get noticed (first time in 3 years of posting I got noticed by a Dev \o/)
2. I do love the game, I want to help more people get into it but new players often feel 'conned' finding out they are not only miles behind in SPs, but also they are getting further behind daily by not having these otherwise useless (learning) skills trained.
3. I have done my time training all advanced learning upto 4.
4. If you want to max training skills then the people losing out are those with the advanced learning skills up to 5. Give the people with 4 or more Advanced Learning skills at 5 a free 30 day PLEX (If you really dont want any lost subs as a result of this).
5. If you want another training time "boost" mechanic (other than implants) then use boosters - its in the name! *Suggestion below*
6. I hate it when the forum eats your long post forcing you to write another more concise post which I am completely failing to do! ugh


Skills boost suggestion:

These should be Temporary Boosters (like with combat boosters) that are "earnt" through play and cannot be traded or used by any character except the one that gains the booster. Like with combat boosters they would give an increase to the training speed of a specific skill or set of skills for x number of hours/days or even weeks.

My suggestion is actually to add these in as unique content missions, like rewards from one-off COSMOS missions, from the new tutorials or perhaps from the NPC starter school station agents in "Epic mission arcs!".

This means people can take it or leave it, unlike with learning skills. It also can be directed so that newer players who are the people who really need to gain skills more quickly and feel the impact more can be targetted for these skills boosts.

If you really want then you could add 'end game' content boosts for things like Advanced Spaceship Command 5, Titan 5 or whatever too, but from my point of veiw its more useful for new players to feel they are "catching up" on SPs. That will get and keep more subscriptions from newer players, without really impacting veterans.

I personally think it would add "flavour" to the game to meet a knarled, old forgotten Amarrian general in some deadspace pocket of wormhole space who decided to share with you his unique warfare understanding helping boost your learning of Amarr Carrier 5 or whatever. But thats just me....

So there you go - hope you'll consider this post too given its not CAPSLOCK & limegreen.

Cheers.

Edit: Much needed analagy of learning skils for new players: Its like handing the keys of a brand new shiny Lambourghini to someone, and telling them they can only use it at 5 mph on a road full of speed bumps. Wink

Treelox
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:33:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?



Not me, I love my learning skills. Everyone told me I was crazy for doing what I did as a new player, but now it is paying off. I love that choice of self sacrifice.

The crazy thing I did, on my first and only trained character, of my first 5m sp 3.5m of it was learning skills.

Zzelle
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:37:00 - [257]
 

Edited by: Zzelle on 19/02/2009 15:50:23
Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I think most people do (I do, everyone I know in game does, etc). If you're playing at all long-term, the time savings from them is significant enough that you end up burning a bunch of time on them to get savings on any of the long-haul skills.

As far as I can tell -- anyone who actually trains toward Vs, BSes and beyond, etc will want them (assuming they know what they do), and anybody who is just dabbling won't care. They feel like a big wall you hit when you realize that in order to start stepping up to bigger fancier ships you have to take this hit up front (which doesn't have the intermediate "cool I can fit an X on my Y now" that a lot of the general purpose skills have) in order to try to get the wait more manageable.

EDIT: some additional observations:

- Learning skills make things more complicated -- A new player already has this giant collection of skills to figure out and now there are these meta-skills that affect learning skills. Annoying!

- Yes you don't *have* to train them, but human nature (especially among the typical mmo player) is to try find the optimal path and many people will latch on to the time savings learning skills provide as "optimal" and immediately decide that therefore it's "required".

- The additional speed-bump is not needed anymore -- why slow new players down? I'm not a fan of punishing the new players for not having been here N years ago. Give them a faster leg up so they can get training toward whatever qualifies as fun for them with minimal hassle.

Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:41:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Zzelle
Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I think most people do (I do, everyone I know in game does, etc). If you're playing at all long-term, the time savings from them is significant enough that you end up burning a bunch of time on them to get savings on any of the long-haul skills.

As far as I can tell -- anyone who actually trains toward Vs, BSes and beyond, etc will want them (assuming they know what they do), and anybody who is just dabbling won't care. They feel like a big wall you hit when you realize that in order to start stepping up to bigger fancier ships you have to take this hit up front (which doesn't have the intermediate "cool I can fit an X on my Y now" that a lot of the general purpose skills have) in order to try to get the wait more manageable.




your right, in the long run they do matter, but that doesn't mean train them in your first 2 months straight to lvl 5 basics and lvl 4 advanced

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:48:00 - [259]
 

So I'm reading this thing on learning skills. I want to point out something that everyones said who seems to not "mind" learning skills.

They all talk about different ways to train learning skills for maximum gain in a bang for your buck system. They also all say that training learning skills to a 5/4 is a bad thing to do right off, and that new players shouldn't listen to older players on saying learning skills are important to do first.

To me thats just an extra layer of complicated on an already complicated game. Get rid of them. Or give them to everyone straight up. Some people instinctively know how to manage learning skills to get what they want out of them; to others its something they are going to spend a lot of time thinking over on how to manage; and on others still they are going to listen to the prevailing opinion of older players and just do that. New players already have enough complicated without having to worry about learning skills, something you devs delight in making worse every 5-7 months on expansion day.

For once, just once, make a change that cuts out a long standing feature.. but makes the game that much more approachable. I'm not asking you to change how industry works, or pvp, nor touch the market system. We're talking about a feature which only affects new players. It takes nothing away from older players to get rid of it, nor does it touch any of the core mechanics of Eve. It simply makes the game easier to get into because there is one less thing a brand new character has to worry about.. something none of the older characters in the game have to worry about at all anymore. They've already done the learning skill tree.

So please, pretty please with sugar on top, get rid of learning skills.

CCP Fear

Posted - 2009.02.19 15:52:00 - [260]
 

So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?


Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:58:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Halycon Gamma


It takes nothing away from older players to get rid of it, nor does it touch any of the core mechanics of Eve. It simply makes the game easier to get into because there is one less thing a brand new character has to worry about.. something none of the older characters in the game have to worry about at all anymore. They've already done the learning skill tree.

So please, pretty please with sugar on top, get rid of learning skills.


The part I made bold isn't true, it removes sp that those players have placed into training, and without compensation a lot of older players will get upset about it.

The Part I underlined and made bold is not true as well, they don't have to worry about them, thats my main issue, is everything says they are a must and they are not.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:01:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?




Please read my above post! *suggestion included!* - NOT IN CAPS & LIMEGREEN UNFORTUNATELY!

Oh the irony. Razz

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:14:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?



I think Evelgrivion made a good suggestion. In essence, he suggested that learnings train independantly and completely unrelated to normal skills. Maybe even a hidden process. This rewards long term players, as they will get a boost over time.

But, imo, if there's a process that needs no human interaction, you could just remove it and be done with it.

Learnings, in my eyes, are nothing like a timesink. Like mining for a week and sacrificing all ore to ding up and mine faster for the rest of your life.
Wasting time on something that let's wasting time go faster..no, i don't like it.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:15:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc.


The mechanics are fine, putting even more emphasis on isk instead of time investment in skills would be unbalanced in favor of the super elite. It's already enough that isk can be exchanged for implants. There is nothing that really can be done, unless you want to go back to the days where doing things added SP, and people were fitting mods over and over to grind up the skillpoints. Decoupling faster learning times from the current skills and implant system is a bad idea.

The problem to my mind is a social one, that can't really be solved reasonably. Newbies should be guided to train a balance of learning skills and fun skills. Adding a cooldown that makes it impossible to train learning skills one after the other would slow them down but it wouldn't really make *sense*.

Really the best thing that can be done is to add more guidance, and things that can be done entirely without skills that are fun for newbies. Making those things fun however, would be the challenge.

MrZany
Amarr
Brood of Redemption
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:15:00 - [265]
 

I like Vyktor's idea of the "learning booster" that can be earned...great idea!
However, having trained learning skill on 6 accounts to date, and having to wait and wait same as everyone else, I see it differently than most,I guess, I feel like I earned my place in a very complex and detail oriented game. If I wanted easy or simple I would play WoW.
Possibly you could combine skills and boosters. Introduce newer players to the booster system which would allow them to train a bit faster, yet, leave skills in place for when they want to really accelerate their learning speed on a permanent basis.
I do see the point most make, it can be challenging to maintain your motivation early in the game when you are taking time to train skills sets you really don't understand.

Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:24:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: Re''taka on 19/02/2009 16:26:02
Edited by: Re''taka on 19/02/2009 16:25:09
Originally by: CCP Fear


I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).





Found it lol


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:26:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.



You're looking at the game in entirely the wrong way.(the discussion on scrapheap is pretty informative and while semi-technical, it should give you some arguments in the right direction)

Think about it this way

What is your goal, and what are the players goals?

A: Your goal is to make money, players goals are to have fun.

If a player isn't having fun, they're going to stop playing. So your goal, as a designer, is to make the game fun.

Lets look at newbies for a second and ask "Is this fun?"

Is training learning skills fun? No
Is flying ships fun? Yes
Is not being able to fly ships and use modules fun? No

BUT, you've got another issue. Part of the game game, as in, the game that isn't described as "is this fun, are people going to pay me money?" is that players make choices and train for various efficiencies over time. There choices allow them to do various things to achieve their goals (whatever they may be) in game.

So we can't just scrap skills and we can't just remove training time. That negates any entire aspect of the payout matrix and its those aspects that make games interesting. So we can't do that.

But what we can do is ask if learning skills are benefiting our payout matrix. We know they aren't fun. Do learning skills benefit our payout matrix in any way?

A: No.

How do we know? Well, we can simply solve the optimal play strategy for learning skill training over various times. Over time X where X is sufficiently large, the optimal play strategy is always "train all learning skills now". Over any time x+h where x is the previous unit of decision making time and h is sufficiently small(under the training time threshold) the optimal play strategy is to only train learning skills if it increases the rate at which you will train the next skill.

Nothing we can do will change these optimal play strategies. The addition or removal of learning skills will not do that. But the big part is that these optimal play strategies do not effect our primary payoff martix for skill training in any appreciable way

Well, if they don't affect our primary payoff martix in any appreciable way (for a number of reasons, which will take too long to go into here), then what is the net effect of learning skills?

A: Negative. Since they don't affect our payoff matrix, players would have as much fun and face as many interesting choices within the game without them. They are extraneous and pointless. They do nothing for the game.

Alright, now back to the game designer side of things. Looking only at character creation we get this:

You have a number of options and you're trying to optimize player fun(thereby optimizing CCP's revenue).

Well, going back up to the top, do learning skills benefit our game at all by making the payoff martix more interesting? No. So it doesn't score any points there. Does it impose costs on players, making it harder for them to get into the game? Yes. So its got negative points there. Lets say our payoff is -1 for learning skills.

Now, with no learning skills what is our payoff? Its 0. The game is no worse and the players are happier! Yea, we're well on our way to making good decisions.

What about skills for character creation?

Well having lots of skills makes the decisions that players make less meaningful, so we can't have that, even if it does make new players happy. That is a wash for points of 0. It can even be confusing starting out with so many options for play. It might even be a negative

And low skills makes players do other things instead of play, since they can't play yet. So while it increases the choice component, it really screws us on the "fun component", -1.

Out of space continued next post.




Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:30:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 19/02/2009 16:32:32
Originally by: Goumindong

Out of space continued next post.


But what about a middle amount of skills? Well, players can actually do stuff that is fun (+1), and we still have our primary payoff matrix intact(+1). Holy moly, that is a total of 2.

Now, you can combine all of these payoffs and see how they interact, but i won't do that quite yet. What is important is that you can see from just a cursory analysis that both the players and CCP are better off with a medium amount of starting skills and no learning skills.

That isn't even getting into the network effects of increased retention.


edit: Elsewhere i discussed learning skills and used this helpful comparison. Learning skills you trade ability now for ability later. But for the player what this means is that they have the choice of trading sucking now for sucking later. Its a kick in the balls either way you look at it for the player. The only question they're asking themselves is whether or not its going to hurt more to get kicked now, or to stave off the ball kicking.

I am just saying, how about we don't kick people in the balls.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:38:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Truckload of :words:


A whole lot of words in this post(s), and none of them are alternatives. There still needs to be a mechanic rewarding time investment that makes training time less, and at the same time is ungrindable. People who invest time should train faster than people who haven't. It would be stupid to have a uniform, or near uniform with implants, training time for everything.

Unless there is an alternative that rewards time investment in a way that is fair and neutral to all styles of gameplay, and all types of eve players, then we should stick with learning skills.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:41:00 - [270]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 19/02/2009 16:42:59
Pottsey and Airikobo of the-first-two-pages-and-complaining-about-a-simple-skill-joke fame need to die in a fire.


First, insinuating that a dev thought seige warfare was used for seiging is just laughable. The frickin skill is called seiging and any new player would automatically think that, at least that's the angle that's most apparent to me.

In addition, saying that the dev's are drifting away from the player base because they take away a leadership skill from beginners is seriously moronic.

A new player probably doesn't join a gang for a week or more. I know I didn't, and I was talking/flying with dozens of players from a forum of mine from day one.



In the end, its the moronic playerbase that has grown apart from the devs. Have reasonable expectations, realize the game has particularized problems from other MMOs, and for gods sakes have a fricking sense of HUMOR.




On the dev blog, here here for changing the respec cooldown to 1 year, I know I wrote a couple posts on that topic myself. Very Happy


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